830: Editing at The New York Times to Veg Everything with Tanya Sichynsky   

29:11Wild. So funny. But yeah, I mean, I did not feel like I had my footing until not only I was in the building, but I had done a decent amount of work. Yeah. It takes a lot of time to acclimate to a place like the Times. But once you're comfortable, it's like the greatest place to work. Yeah. Thank you for sharing all that because I think it's really important. We talked to so many writers and who work in food media and like you said a lot of things, you know, there's a lot of rejection, you know, even at the highest level. So that's part of it. Yeah. And of course, just like imposter syndrome is always around and just thinking like I need time to get used to this situation.

29:50And I think that's what a lot of organizations, media organizations do. So I felt like I had no business being there for a really long time. and obviously you know that's not the case but also working there really young I feel like there was a part of me that felt maybe I had peaked too early like I starting there at 27 is I don't know it's it's really funny to look back on now but it it was the greatest thing that could happen that's great and the work shows I think there's a lot of joy in the newsletter program at the food desk, all the different voices between yours and Luke and Nikita and Emily and just like all the different ways the newsletter comes to life.

30:32You got to subscribe to the New York Times for this, the food alone. You can say what you want about all the other sections, but just like give them the money for the food because it's really, really great. Great work you're doing there. Well, let's talk about the book. I have a lot of questions, but I love what you wrote about vegetables on your childhood table, quote, the slight curves that made up a well-rounded meal around a meaty centerpiece. That's what you describe as vegetables. You know, how do you square that kind of mentality about, you know, we still are in this protein era where protein meat is at the core of many of our meals and we crave more vegetables, but sometimes it just can't end up there.

31:16Yeah, I think most people who I hear from, and maybe it's too much of a generalization, but I think most Americans grew up eating this kind of like meat and three or meat and two style of eating. And I feel like especially when we launched the veggie, we were kind of reaching a peak of hot vegetarianism. And the pendulum has swung completely with this protein fixation that you've described. I think there is a reliance on meat because it's like easy. I think it's actually easier. And I would even go as far as to say maybe a little less thoughtful to make a meat centerpiece that tastes good. Whereas doing that with vegetables, even if it's a combination of sides, people assume it requires more effort, more thought.

32:15more ingredients, all of these things. And so I think some of the work of the newsletter and then by extension, the book is kind of trying to rewire that thinking where it's like, actually, delicious vegetables don't have to be this super labor intensive thing. You can get protein from a variety of other ingredients. Also, nutritional diversity is important. People are also starting to care a lot about fiber like that is definitely you know a foundational element you're not getting fiber in like a piece of cod or chicken breast no not getting it and that's the problem with the meat and three mentality i think so and i also think that listen i spoiler alert i'm an omnivore yeah right um and i love to cook fish and meat and whatever um but i actually think There's kind of a – you reach a wall creatively, I think, as a home cook, whereas doing it with vegetables, it feels a little bit more boundless.

33:18I think there's just more opportunity there to be playful, to try new things. There's also just more vegetables. There's more diversity, but also there's also more you can do than roasting a head of cauliflower. which is fine but and that was a thing right but there's just more you can do but it doesn't have to be complicated and looking at the book they're a great job of the brevity and the tightness of the recipe development that leads to the project itself so these these times books are really unique and we had vaughn in talking about cookies last fall and like you know we're gonna hopefully talk to more of your colleagues emily's been on as well talking about her books and really these books are you're kind of pulling from for this like 24 ,000 recipes in this wonderful database and you're having to bring it down to 100 and these like recipes from Melissa Clark, Eric Kim, Hedy Lou McKinnon, Andy Baragani.

34:16So how do you as the project editor and the author pull these together and really keep your sanity? The process is not dissimilar from curating the newsletter right so every week and then and then in the book it's like i'm i'm looking to check a handful of boxes one is like are all the recipe developers who i love who are the best brains in the vegetarian game are they represented um a lot of the names that you mentioned are are really kind of i think standard bears i would also throw lex y bell into there i would throw you one day komalafe in there people who are like really smart really thoughtful about vegetables um but i think when you have such a wide variety to choose from, I like to think that part of the reason why they asked me to do it is also some of it is just personal taste.

35:07What do I want to eat? What sounds good to me as a person who doesn't eat vegetarian for every meal, especially because I think the audience for this book is not necessarily super dietarily rigid. We're hoping to reach people who just want to cook more vegetables. We want to reach people who are omnivores, who are flexitarians, also vegans, trying to check all of those boxes at once. How can I select recipes that will sound as delicious to somebody who had a steak last night as it would to somebody who has been vegetarian for 10 years or frankly vegan for 10 years? It's not easy. But I think I think this word is really overused in food, but it is most useful here.

35:55It's kind of just like deliciousness. What tastes really good? What doesn't taste like you had to make it? What doesn't taste, I think, especially if you're talking to somebody who's a more regular meat eater, what doesn't feel punitive? You know, I grew up in the 90s. There definitely was a time where a salad felt like something you had to eat because you wanted to lose weight or you wanted to, you know, whatever, watch your figure. and I have tried to kind of rewire my own brain on that. And I think choosing the recipes kind of help make the case in a number of different ways about like what eating a vegetarian meal can look like, can feel like, can like mean.

36:41Yeah, and it can be certainly decadent. That's for sure, which I think, and you're not, it's not just plant-based too, and that's another big differentiator. Yes. I think the vegetarian books are more rare than the vegan books. There's more vegan books. Yes. And I think decadence is a really good word because one thing that we talked about when we were talking through the framing of this book and something I've always been very adamant about with the veggie is this is not like a wellness product. I'm not a doctor. This is not a decidedly health food product. product? Are a lot of the recipes in there nutritionally diverse and sufficient and healthful?

37:29Absolutely. Will you like feel good after you're eating them? For sure. Am I going to tell you that deep fried tofu is a health food? No. But I also don't think that, I think we've kind of lost the plot a little bit in the wellness space when it comes to food and what we should eat and what we shouldn't eat. And this is kind of just thinking about food as far as what will taste good and what will make you feel good. And let's not get too deep about, did I hit 40 grams of protein in this pasta? It's like, all right. Yeah, I don't see those like macros popping up in like big, bold font, which you see in some books, which is fair enough.

38:09So Andy's Extra Green Pasta Salad is the cover star. And I love this recipe. It seems like it could be for all seasons. Let's talk through it a little bit. I love this recipe. It was there. There were a couple other recipes for the cover as options, but I was always. Yeah. I mean, it's so I think it's a great example of everything I just described. Right. It's like really evocative of the ethos of this book because it is one kind of secretly vegan if you leave off the Parmesan topping. Right. I think it's so smart because it leans on a handful of vegetarian cooking building blocks that I think are really useful when you're worried about developing flavor and kind of like having this like layered flavor.

38:55There's miso paste in there. It's kind of a pesto-y approach. But what I love is that it stretches summer basil by using other greens like spinach or even arugula. and it is I think like many of the recipes in this book incredibly adaptable like you said for season so there's snap peas in there but you could also do you know quickly blanched asparagus or even some like finely chopped broccoli I think kind of anything would taste good with sauce and it could be from the freezer yes absolutely that's the cool thing that I identify because I think you just don't want to be like a farmer's market no it could be definitely from it could be frozen and blanched green beans I could throw some edamame in there if you're worried about protein.

39:38But I just think it's all of Andy's recipes, whenever I look at them, I'm like, god damn, that man is smart. Like, it's just really, I'm overusing this word, but it's just really thoughtful. He's worked the line at restaurants for a long time and I think some of our best writers and authors clearly have that. Yeah, and he'll be back in the game very soon. He'll be back in the game. I can't wait for the opening. I know, same. Well, I really, really identify with Ali Slagle's Veggie Rubin. We wrote a piece in 2019 giving praise to this very unique sandwich. And it's truly one of my favorite sandwiches when you strip out the corned beef for a veggie reuben.

40:14And how did you approach this and working with Ali on this? So there's a line in the book, I think in the intro, where I kind of talk about my initial approach to vegetarian cooking as like a game of Jenga, where you like have to pull the block out and you're wondering if the thing is going to still stand. this recipe is like exactly that analogy right where what actually makes a great sandwich is usually not the meat yeah it is the sauce it is the crunchy vegetables it is the bread and a reuben really punches above its weight in all of those categories with sauerkraut with rye with like russian dressing and i don't know i think sometimes when i have a reuben like a corn beef traditional Reuben.

40:59It's very heavy. And I think the sandwich is cheesy, but bright and really rich, but also you're not going to want to lay down on the couch for the rest of the day after you eat it. And Allie is another great example of a recipe developer who really is, who really, I think, leans into her own cravings. Maybe I would use the kind of weed brain thing too where she leans into her cravings and she kind of strips them down of of its parts and builds it back into something so much simpler yeah um and every time i look at one of those recipes i'm like there's like four or five ingredients in this surely this is like what is she doing yeah and then she puts something together that is brilliant yeah she's she's such a gift yeah and she's it's just hyper creative recipe development it's it's really she's one of my one of my favorites yeah another one i want to talk about is the nashville hot chicken sliders made with tofu.

41:53Really, really cool. Like what's the technique to get the tofu to feel like you're at like Prince's or one of those iconic Nashville spots? It's all it's so it's twofold. It's all in the dread. Right. So traditional to sometimes like a battered fish or a battered chicken, you have something carbonated. So there's carbonated water in there. There is rice flour, which I think really helps with that kind of lighter, crunchier crust. You see stuff like that with tempura. So you have something that is not going to cling so much to the tofu. There's like an airiness there that I think is really nice.

42:29And you can also get some of those little crunchy edges and pockets that you would get if you have like a giant, you know, chicken thigh that's fried. And then obviously with a Nashville hot chicken sandwich, you got hot butter, which is also what makes wings so good. So just like a really seasoned, spiced butter that you can then toss the tofu in. And because you have this great fry on it, the structure holds like that. I think that's another thing that's important to a good sandwich is structure. Oh, absolutely. You just don't want it all sliding out the side. Yeah. You got to you have to have we actually just did.

43:04We're doing spoiler a sandwich episode of the veggie in September. And we went to Washington Square Park and I interviewed a bunch of people asking them what they thought made a great sandwich. Very few people said the meat. Yeah. A lot of people said structural integrity. so like for a fried sandwich you want something that has good crunch great bread good good uh moistness mayonnaise whatever that might be you need a pickle um and what i also like about that recipe too is that it doesn't have to be a slider a slider is fun for a party but you can make that you know standard format just yeah just dinner sandwich just having yeah exactly for dinner i mean it's why chick-fil-a is so elite i mean they nail i mean they nail every element that you just refer to it's a good there's a chick-fil-a over by the times yeah that i i i do uh frequent it's good yeah chick-fil-a is good good good good product um a few more questions this is great i like how you are pulling out your reader comments for each one which is cool how did you that that's hard because you're like picking something that's irreverent or snarky or fun or cool like how did you come up with because you know many of our listeners are in the app and they're doing their own comments, we always read the comments because there's lots of great riffs down there.

44:19There's also some beefs and funny controversies too within the comment section. But how did you edit that down? So that was some help from my editor, Trish, who was kind of looking to curate a handful of reader comments that we could then pull from to be the final one. I think for me, I often feature reader comments in the Veggie too. it is always I need them to be saying something additive I don't need to see them speak to something that's reflected in the head note or in the steps I want to hear about how they felt after they ate it who they shared it with what modifications they made I think our readers are incredibly smart and you know also really creative about how to adapt things to their tastes and modify things to their diets and so if they have a tip that I see in the comments that I'm like oh that's really smart I would try that or actually I did try that and I know that it works I want to make sure everyone else knows about it too um and so I think it is just another service for the reader of this book to be able to hear from other people who've already made the recipe because if you don't trust me, maybe you would trust, you know, like Joanne from Wisconsin.

45:36I love the name. We got to pre-order this book. It's really great. I've had it for a while and previewed it. And I think there's so much to have it sitting on your kitchen counter. Just like having this really tight collection of 100 recipes because it can be challenging. I know you do a lot of work at the Times trying to get people to cook from the database. But you having a book form is is actually really special and really unique. I totally agree. And actually, so I found out the other day, it's 101 recipes. Oh, OK. I don't know to speak to the kind of hustle of the Times fact check editor in you.

46:14Yeah. I was like, oh, it's actually 101 because we put in at the very last minute that the tofu pie, the Thanksgiving pie that I developed last year. So that is in the book. It's one of only a handful of desserts, if you want to call them that. Well, let's go over because I'm sorry, I didn't ask about your own recipes. Yeah, sorry about that. It's only that one. OK, good. It's only that one. Yeah. And it is I, you know, I really wanted to have a recipe in the book. I think this really is an opportunity to showcase the best developers that The Times has. But that was a recipe that was really special to me and was something that I think people would get really excited to cook and that they would be surprised by, right?

46:57I think there are, you might go into a vegetarian book with a set of expectations and you're probably not expecting a cheesecake, right? And so I was like, can we throw that one in at the last minute? And I thought we swapped something out for it. And then I guess we didn't. So there's 101 recipes in the book, which I love. Yeah, a bonus recipe. A bonus recipe. 101 is more fun to say. It's definitely fun to say. This episode is brought to you by ZBiotics Pre-Alcohol Probiotic. Hosting a food podcast means I'm invited to a lot of industry dinners, book launches, chef pop-ups, and wine tastings that run four hours longer than planned.

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49:46Add a couple of friends, and now that's next level. Suddenly, the laughs get louder, the stories keep flowing, and the food tastes better. Because Pepsi brings out more flavor, more fun, and more of the moment. Food deserves Pepsi. Grab a Pepsi Zero Sugar today. Tanya, and this is Taste We Asked Guest about the discerning taste. So to close this interview, here's a little rapid-fire, fast and furious taste check. Are you ready? Oh, God, yeah. The best fruit. Mango or kiwi? Yeah, yeah. Can I say two? I feel like I'm going to say two for a lot of these things. Oh, good. Mango. You have to answer this.

50:20The worst vegetable. You have to answer it. Squash. Like a butternut squash. Tell me more. So hard to cut. You know, I was saying this whole thing. So hard to cut. I feel like I'm now taking a step back from this whole, like, vegetables aren't laborious. butternut squash can like can get bent like i it's so uh i just i don't like a super sweet vegetable exactly that's it i think i love sweet and savory but i want to be in control of how the sweet comes through i think the sweetest i go is an ear of corn which i love um but like butternut squash is not really doing anything for me i don't love the texture i i like it there's a butternut squash soup recipe from Christian Reynoso on cooking that I love because it's kind of like a cow soy.

51:15Yeah. It's really, really fun. That's where I want butternut squash. And when I make it, I do buy the pre-cut stuff. You have to. Because I'm like, what are we talking about? How many ER visits are caused by acorn and butternut? I would love to know. You know, you've heard of like avocado hand. Yeah. I want to know about like butternut squash rift. I feel it's like September 15th, Sunday. is there's like probably every like metropolitan area has, you know, 10 to 25 visits because of - I would imagine. And I don't know if, did you say September 15th randomly? Because that's when the book comes out.

51:45Well, I said it. Big brain. I said it because I'm thinking that book is going to be on my counter for the fall. Because it's one of those books that I think is really shows itself in like the fall into the winter. Yes. In many ways, because I think we're, you know, know indulging with uh holidays and you want to cook meat free or you know and like this is it this is the book yes i i would agree i think it's like very all season but it is it it leans to help i think a certain type of cook who wants to know what to make for family and like when is family coming over no definitely agree all right a few more uh what is your typical breakfast Oh, man.

52:28An iced latte. And lately, because I feel like I've been really busy, but I would also say a big bowl of Greek yogurt, blackberries, two perfectly cooked hard-boiled eggs, and like some chia seeds. Yeah. Yeah. I had that the other day. Flightful. The best dessert? Coffee ice cream. Yeah. Easy. Easy. Okay. Silken Firm or Extra Firm tofu? Pick one. You're really mean for asking me this. I know, it's a tough one. I'm going to say extra firm. Yeah. I think for applications, it's definitely useful. It has the most interesting use cases, I would say. And it's, especially when you're like freezing it and then you thaw it and then you squeeze all the moisture out.

53:14Like it really can get so spongy and it can mimic a lot of, you know, meat products that way. Yeah. But I do love a silken tofu. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead. can it be a bar? Sure. 18th Street Lounge in Washington, D.C. I think it reopened after the pandemic in a different location, but it used to be in a row house that was owned by Teddy Roosevelt in DuPont Circle. And every floor was a different music genre. There was live music up top. There was a rooftop you could smoke on. Every time you walked in, there was a big bouquet of lilies. The whole place smelled like lilies i spent so many nights of my 20s there and when i heard that it closed i wanted to bury myself in the dirt i love that place yeah that's for i think that's for like dc heads yeah i love that yeah sounds like a cool place it ruled when you're craving fast food where are you going oh my god panda express yeah so good i love panda express i love orange chicken lo mein and super greens that's my order and a big fat coke yeah that's a spot that's the atlanta in you i know i love a coca-cola yeah fan express is such a crazy answer it's a great answer it's actually not come up so i love really what do people usually say like mcdonald's yeah mcdonald's i would say in and out mcdonald's depending on where i mean la people say in and out never had in and out before really i know shocking it's not good you know i hear i hear mixed reviews about it.

54:46So I'm not really. It's not worth it. I think if you're in the West Coast, there's better fast food, in my opinion. Yeah, I would imagine so. It's for like the tourists. Like, you know, you got to go once, have your animals. Maybe I'll go when I'm in L.A. for a book tour. Favorite city else in America to visit for food? Madrid. I was just in Madrid. I was in San Sebastian, which we had recommendations from you. Oh, yeah. Did you hit up any of them? We did. We did. Oh, my gosh. I'm blanking on some of the names. But we went to a bunch of the ones that you recommended. Oh, right on. Great. Right.

55:14Yeah. And yeah, Madrid is so special. It's like one of my favorite cities in the world. And surely when you come back from Madrid, you will probably want to cook out of this book and like nothing else for several months because green vegetables kind of hard to come by. Absolutely. It's in north, south. It's challenging. It is rough, but But, oh, the seafood, like the shrimp, the bocarones, the tomato, like the pan con tomate. It's just like it is exactly how I like to eat for a period of time. Yeah. It's a great angle for a September 15th release. It's like, you know, everyone, you could be like on your southern barbecue tour or in Spain, like or Italy and maybe not having a green salad or a vegetable.

56:01Like buy the book. Buy the book. Buy the book. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Okay. It's my public sub order. You know public? Yeah, of course. Yes. Of course. Yes, yes, yes. So born and raised on Pub Subs. Yeah. My Pub Sub order is the chicken, the chicken tenders, chopped, mayo, honey mustard, a ton of lettuce, a ton of white onion, banana peppers, pickles, pickled jalapenos, vinegar. Vin, yes. I like an acid. Gotta add a vin to the mayonnaise, yeah. I need like acid and crunch. Yeah, yeah. I have actually been thinking a lot about this sandwich lately because I want to make it vegetarian.

56:45Yeah. And there is a tofu nugget recipe on cooking that I believe is from Janae Claiborne. And I want to make those nuggets and put them in a sub roll. And then just what I want is like the lettuce, the tomato, the onion, the pickled vegetables. It's a great reason to double the recipe. you have your mains for the nugs and then you have your sandwich later on. Love that. Tucked in a roll. Honestly, you could also just, I would take the chicken out. I don't usually put on cheese, but you could just do a few slices of cheese and then just all the veg. And I still think that sandwich would rock. I'd say Prove Cologne would be my big prove.

57:21Tanya, man, come back. We'll talk more about your career. We'll do some food writing. I would love to come back. This was so funny. It went by so fast. Thank you so much for joining us today. Of course.

57:34This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skrzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste. This episode is brought to you by ChatGPT.

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