836: Ruth Reichl: Five Memoirs, One Hot Substack, No Filter

32:04So what people said, not just what the food was like, not just what the waiters looked like, not just what the service had been like, but actually try and write everything that happened that evening. We have to talk about deadlines as well. I think restaurant critics have one of this intense deadline. It's like it never stops. Like it's a weekly column plus features plus profiles. But you still have to go out and do the meals six, eight, nine, 14 a week. I'm trying to build a little case that this job is not like super easy. It's actually very skilled. How did you handle that deadline pressure at both the LA Times and New York Times?

32:43well I actually don't know how I got through it at the LA Times because at one point at the LA Times I was not only the restaurant critic I was also the restaurant editor and I had 12 other critics I mean we had the San Diego edition and the Orange County edition and the Valley edition and then we were doing reviews in the main edition four days a week so I had all these people who I was editing. And then I became the food editor as well. And the food section of the LA Times was the largest food section in the country. It was 60 pages every week. Remarkable. And I had a staff of 20 and a test kitchen and a photo studio.

33:34And then I had a baby. And I would sometimes wake up in the morning and think, I can't do this. I can't do this all. Yeah. But I loved it, you know, and it was such an exciting time. I mean, this is the 80s in Los Angeles. It's California cuisine. It's the beginning of this, you know, amazing food revolution. There was so much to write about. And it was exciting. But, you know, I am a workaholic, but that was crazy. Yeah. And even at the New York Times, I mean, in addition to doing a weekly review and then a lot of roundup kinds of things, I also had to do a radio show every morning on WQXR. Oh, you were five days on that?

34:24Mm-hmm. That's fun. So you would show up to the studio. You couldn't do that on the phone? I know. I would go into, I would go downstairs and get the key from a guard. And then I would go into a broom closet that had been set up, literally a broom closet. that have been set up with a microphone, and I would call the studio and record them. It's amazing. I mean, when you start stacking up the work, it's a crazy job. I do want to ask you about the selection of restaurants, because I think that's a big part of the critic. And what Ruth, what you did, both in LA and particularly in New York, you were writing about cuisines and neighborhoods that the primary critic was not even touching.

35:04I mean, you wrote the first review of a Korean restaurant in New York City, which is remarkable looking at how Korean food has exploded there. I mean, did you have to fight fights with your editors to cover these? I mean, the amazing thing, both at the LA Times and the New York Times, nobody ever said word one to me about what I was covering. It was, you know, I got there, and especially I got to the New York Times, and, you know, everybody has these myths about how it is at the New York Times. and I thought that they were going to tell me what to review and my editor said to me, what do you think the first restaurant you'll be reviewing is?

35:42I mean, the only time I ever got pushback from them was the Le Cirque review. And that was, they were terrified. And I didn't know why my editors were so scared of that review. And this is the first review where I wore disguises and wrote about what had happened to me when I was in disguise and when they didn't know who I was and then what happened to me when I went not in disguise and they were feeding the restaurant critic of the New York Times. And it was so different. It was stunning. And when I turned this in, I knew that it went up to the editor-in-chief, and I did not understand what was going on, but I was terrified.

36:40But it was published. It was published. So what's that conversation like with your editor? Do you just have their unconditional support, and did they fight the fight upstairs? They did. That's cool. They did. It's cool to hear that. I think that that review probably was polarizing within the company because you were using an alternative technique style of reviewing. Well, but why it was really scary to them? Le Cirque was Punch Salzburger's favorite restaurant. That's it. He owned the paper and they were. And do you know why it turned out to be OK? Walter Annenberg who was Punch Salzberger's closest friend called him the morning the review appeared and said this is the best review that has ever appeared in the New York Times because he had gone to Le Cirque once and not been recognized and been treated like dirt even him and you know my editor said no matter what happens were cool.

37:46I love that. Briefly, your favorite positive review and your favorite really mean, negative, scary review. So my favorite positive review, there are a few of them which were really a joy to write. I loved the review I wrote of Danielle's first restaurant, which actually the person I went to's brother is here today. I went with Jules, and that story starts with me calling Jules the next morning and talking about the meal we'd had the night before. And I think it was a really fun review to read. because it's just all dialogue between us about what happened at that meal. Because sometimes what you want to do is condense the many times you've been into one conversation.

38:55But again, I feel like it put people there. I loved the review I wrote about Union Pacific when Rocco was there. which I mean that review opens with the woman at the next table is moaning. You get that in the paper of record, you kind of win. That's a career move right there. Great opening line. And Rocco, that restaurant, I had Rocco on the podcast about a year ago and we were just talking about that review and how at that time it changed his trajectory and his career. I mean did you feel that heaviness being particularly at the New York Times? Well that was the thing about the New York Times.

39:32The New York Times is a scary job. and I will tell you that my first day at the New York Times my phone rings and I pick up the phone and there's this voice I haven't heard in 20 years saying, Ruth and I knew it was my friend, Mohamed Ramouche who I met on my first day at the University of Michigan and he said he had gone back to Morocco to live and he said I was on the plane to Mecca to do the Hodge, and I read that you had become the restaurant critic of the New York Times. And I thought, oh my God, this is news around the world? Yeah. I mean, that is scary. And that for me was the terror of working at the New York Times.

40:29I mean, with the Le Cirque review, I knew if there was one error, if I had called, you know, if I had mentioned an herb they never use in the restaurant, my career was over. That's the feeling. That's the feeling. Yeah. That's heavy. And I also, when I went on book tour for Tender at the Bone, I was still at the New York Times and I went in disguise. and my first stop was at Rizzoli Bookstore in New York and a man comes up and he's pushing a seven-year-old kid in front of him and he says, this is my son and you owe him an apology. And I said, why? And he said, you wrote a really mean review about a restaurant where I was the chef and I lost my job and I haven't been able to get one since.

41:28Yeah. That's not something you want to hear. It's not. And I think even to this day, the New York Times critics make or break restaurants and cause people to not have jobs. It's the truth. And it's this industry is, you know, you need voices like Ruth out there assessing the cuisine for you, the consumer, the customer. You know, there's a reason. It's service journalism. Yes. Is that what helped you sleep at night a little bit when you get those people coming to you? I kept this picture. Actually, one of my main reviews was this place called The Box Tree. Okay, let's talk. Which was a really mean review.

42:12But I kept, I mean, what happened there was there was this young couple who obviously had no money. And they had obviously saved up. to go to this restaurant. And I just felt so awful for them. I basically said, let me pay for your dinner. And I mean, I had an expense account, so it wasn't generosity on my part. But they were at the next table. And I said, let me pay for your dinner. And you guys go to go play some go. And I suggested restaurants for them to go to. But I kept a picture of a couple like them on my desk. and they kept me honest because it was like, you know, you told them that the Box Street was a good restaurant and they came here and wasted their money.

43:04And, you know, there are lots of people who can afford to go out once a year. And your job is to make sure that they don't get ripped off. And I just kept thinking, they are the people who are paying my salary. They are who I'm writing for. Your readers. This episode is brought to you by Quince. Something happens to me every fall. The second there's a chill in the air, I start cooking like I'm feeding a village. This means more Korean stews, long short rib braises, and large platters of pasta basically all the time. The fall is also when I think about upgrading my kitchen gear. That's where Quince comes in.

43:42Their stainless steel cookware gives you even heating without having to babysit the pan. And their ceramic nonstick pieces make cleanup so easy for a busy Tuesday night. But it's their Damascus steel chef's knife that I really reach for consistently now. It's sharp, perfectly balanced, and it's made prep for a great Alison Roman recipe really easy. And when I do have people over, their table linens and glassware comes in really handy. And everything's priced 50-80 % less than comparable brands, since Quince cuts out the middleman and works directly with the manufacturers. I use it constantly and you should too.

44:19Bring quality to your kitchen with Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash taste. Get free shipping on your orders and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. That's quince.com slash taste. Plan B is a backup birth control option that's there for you when things don't go according to plan. It specifically works after unprotected sex and before pregnancy occurs by temporarily delaying ovulation. Plan B is available nationwide at all major retailers and through delivery apps like DoorDash. No ID, prescription, or age requirement. It's the number one OBGYN recommended brand of emergency contraception, and it won't impact your future fertility.

45:04That's Freedom the B. Use as directed. So you're at the New York Times gourmet calls, and you turned them down. What changed your mind?

45:19they probably called twice they called a few times and I was scared of it I mean I had never run a magazine I had a staff of 65 wasn't a corporate person loved my job at the New York Times and my understanding with the New York Times. When I went to the New York Times from the LA Times, I basically took a pay cut because I had been management. I mean, I'd been the editor of the food section. And when I went to the New York Times, they said, when you don't want to do restaurants anymore, you can take over the dining section. So my husband said to me, you know, you can take over the dining section of the New York Times, and you probably want to do restaurants for another year or two.

46:24My son was getting older. I really wanted to go home and cook dinner. It's not great to be going out every night when you have a nine-year-old. and he said or you can take over the bible of American food I mean if you really care that much about food what do you think is more important gourmet or the New York Times I mean this is your chance and they had promised me I could do anything I wanted and amazingly they meant it they did with the expense account to go with it But I want to remind everybody about gourmet because, you know, it's been not with us for a long time. But I think, yes, it was the Bible of American food.

47:10But I think the Ruth Roysel version of gourmet took that Bible to the highest, the top of the mountain. I mean, Ruth, tell us about when you entered the world of Condé Nast and gourmet. What kind of energy were you bringing to the editorial team? and what types of stories made your version of Gourmet, the last version of Gourmet, its best and its most important to food culture? Well, when they, you know, when Cy Newhouse was like really trying to persuade me and, you know, it's like when a billionaire decides he wants something, he's not going to take no for an answer. And the more you say no, the more he wants it.

47:50I mean, and, you know, He said that he had heard that I had done such a great job with the LA Times and that he wanted Gourmet to be the best culinary publication it possibly could be. And I said, look, I don't think you're going to like what I want to do. You're putting out a magazine basically for rich people. and this is an amazing change moment in American food and there's so much happening and we should be leading that conversation. But I really, you know, I want to take a much bigger bite of the world. I don't want to just do restaurants and, you know, fancy resort trips and expensive ingredients.

48:45I really want to talk about what is happening in American, what's happening on the farms. You know, what does American government policy mean for food? I want us to write about, like, every possible thing you can think about in food. I really, I want to get great writers back into this magazine again. And he said, you can do anything you want. there are many people who love gourmet and I grew up on gourmet and I loved the old gourmet. I felt like the gourmet of the early 90s had become very kind of stayed. And I expected when I went in there to find a staff that was equally stayed. And what I found, I mean, actually it was shocking to me that on my first day when I was being shown around, the editor who was showing me around took me into a room and said very proudly, and here we have all of the articles for the next two years.

50:07They're all shot and edited and ready to go. And I was, what are you talking about? And she said, well, you know, some magazines like to think that they're timely. We like to think that we're timeless. And, you know, I started looking through these, and I'm like, you know, I wouldn't know. Month by month, I mean, everything changes. And so, you know, I called the first staff meeting. Well, it turns out they had never had a staff meeting. Oh, really? And we didn't have a room big enough. So when I actually got everybody in a room and it was like we were so crowded, we were like sitting on each other's laps.

50:53And I said, we have a mandate to change the magazine. What do you think we should do? And I didn't say another word for three hours. I mean, the staff was as eager as I was to make changes. And they're all raising their hands and saying, you know, I want to do a produce issue. And we should do a one city issue. And I mean, it was so exciting. I mean, it was like a joy to feel like you're giving people this opportunity that they really wanted. and we did that magazine together. It was not my magazine. It was very much our magazine. So interesting that you walked in and they had two years laid out because I think even then, you had a sense of pace and timing and you see it today on the brief on your sub stack.

51:47Like you are about the culture, about the zeitgeist and given that they had two years of articles, you just ripped them up and basically just assigned. I mean, what I said to the staff is, so we've got these two years of articles. I don't know who's edited what, but we're basically getting rid of all of them unless, if you want to argue for something, please tell me. And so people would say, you know, well, we've got this article on Petra that I think is really good. And I said, fine. You know, I mean, anything people wanted to argue for, but most of it, gone. You write about them, quote unquote, murdering the publication 16 years ago.

52:32Do you still feel that way? Absolutely. I mean, it makes so little sense to me. I mean, I really feel like that magazine, which was 70 years old, did not belong to Condé Nast. It belonged to its readers. And they could have definitely fired me, fired the entire staff. But to kill the magazine was stupid. I mean, it was stupid and it was thoughtless. And Cy Newhouse, who had always respected the audience, in that moment was not respecting the audience. I mean, we had the highest circulation the magazine had ever had. We had a million people who loved that magazine. And to walk away from that, it was just insane.

53:25It's insane, too, because you clearly had in you, you know, you had these skills. You knew where the future of media was going because you see it in Lebrief. You see it now. And like it's the same you. You like knew that things were changing. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, the tragedy of Condé Nast is that Cy Newhouse didn't understand the Internet. I mean, if he had put the$100 million he put into Portfolio Magazine, into the internet, Condé Nast would own publishing in America. He would be the only publisher today. Let's talk about Le Brief. Let's talk about Substack. I mean, you're prolific.

54:03It's such a great read. I subscribe. I read. What is it like in this next chapter of your journalism to be writing for this Substack community and then having a comment section? which like really, you didn't really have as much of that. You had social media, of course, and Twitter, definitely a presence on Twitter, but now you have a community at Lebrief. I can't tell you. I mean, I thought I would do Substack for a month. I mean, you know, they came to me and asked me to do it and I said I would do it for a month. I was so stupid that I didn't understand that nobody wanted a daily, I mean I put out like almost a year's worth of of content in that first month.

54:47Yeah, I remember. And way too much and then you know I said well okay I'm done now. I said I do it for a month and they said you know have you looked at your open rate and well it's easy to have a big open rate if you don't have very many subscribers. But it would he said it's the second highest open rate that we have on Substack and you really, you should keep doing it. And so I thought, okay, I'll do it for another month or two and see how it goes. And I kind of fell in love with it. I mean, it's the thing I do when I want to take a break from what I think is my real job, which is writing my books.

55:30And this is the thing I do for fun. And, you know, I love hearing from readers. I love watching it grow. I love being able to do whatever I want there. And it's also really great because, you know, I have this huge archive and none of my early work is digitized. So if you want to find, you know, the things I wrote for magazines, for Ms. Magazine or New Dawn Magazine or New West or California. None of that, or Matt Holm, none of it's available. It's just such a wonderful to dip in and hear about a restaurant from Los Angeles, from the era of Michael McCarty or from New York or your travels and also your menu collection, which we've written about on Taste is tremendous, so you're posting menus too, so please subscribe to Roof Substack.

56:28It is really, really cool. One final thing. You had a really interesting phone call this morning in Traverse City. I did. Can we share that with the group? And maybe it tips to some future Ruth Roy shall work. I'm going to write another book. Yeah. It's very exciting. And this book is basically called, at the moment, this will not be the title, but Notes from the Revolution. And it's about, you know, I mean, somebody once said to me that I was the zealot of food. It was a chef who said, no matter where I am in the food world, it doesn't matter if I'm in what part of the country or even the world I am, I look up and there you are with your notebook.

57:11So I really was there. You know, I was in Berkeley at, you know, the beginning of the Gourmet Ghetto. I've known Alice Waters for more than 50 years. And I think I wrote, I think the Michael's article is probably the first article that was about the opening of a restaurant because nobody cared until then. I mean, nobody would have spent a year writing an article about the opening of a restaurant, because restaurants weren't part of popular culture. And so it's about that whole era, you know, the first farm to table. I mean, you know, I was standing next to Laura Chanel when she sold the first goat cheese in America.

58:02And I have all these stories I've never told about those times. So it'll be menus and photographs and articles and a lot of stuff that I've never said before. I can't wait to read about Michael McCarty and Alice Waters and the balance between the two of them and such important figures in American food. Ruth Roishel, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you.

58:32How are you doing, buddy? you've been on like you're like in the middle of book launch mode like doing a lot of these how are you holding up i'm i'm doing well this week because i am home in my favorite place so i'm like i'm enjoying it but i wish i was here a lot longer okay well let's talk about you being here because i think you split time between chicago and traverse city where's your heart uh it's definitely I mean, I love Chicago. I worked in a lot of neighborhoods, so I have deep connections in Chicago, but I think my heart is here now. Yeah. A little bit of a leading question, I feel. I think so.

59:11You know, I want to note, like, first off, it's been a busy summer, of course, of the book, but you've been in your kitchen, kitchens, plural. What's been the baking rotation like for you when you have the time? You know, are there new discoveries, or are you baking from the book? There's a couple of things I have been baking from the book because as the, you know, the produce comes into season in here, it's like I buy a flat of strawberries and I made two batches of the strawberry, fresh strawberry pie with pretzel crust for when my family was in town and they just annihilated it. The other, we just got air conditioning in our place here.

59:46So I have been making a lot of ice cream, which is my other, there's no ice cream recipes in this book, but the next one will have a lot of ice cream and then a lot of German bread. Okay, we're going to get into Germany. I know you have a deep connection there with the wines and of course studying there. Restaurants in Traverse City, I mean, and bakeries and do you have like a rotation there? Yeah, I'm spoiled because I live very close to Farm Club, which is one of my favorite, especially bakeries. They grind their own grain there, so they have a lot of whole grain scones and breads, and it's really the style that I love.

1:00:22So I can pop over there for a quick, grab some things to bring home for company. Nine Bean Rose also is the other way up the road. I can grab some great croissants, or their biscuits and gravy are really good. And then when I come to town, One of my favorite places I just keep going back to is Glendale Burgers, which has smash burgers and fries. It's just like, it's so good. It's so close to my house. It's just, I get spoiled. But Frank's 231, down by the airport, is a new place that I just like, it's shockingly good for. It's in like a little strip mall by the airport, and it's just so delicious.

1:00:57And then there's classics like Stella and the Cook's House and those places for a nice night out. So what's it like when you move to a new city and, you know, being in Chicago and being in the food world and writing about food, you're always discovering new new restaurants. So when you have a new city, what's that like, like deep down when you get to explore and see this new city? For me, it's about meeting the people behind the thing. So I've really spent a lot of time here just trying to meet new folks and the folks behind the bakery. I did an event with Nick Tyson from Farm Club, who is a great baker and really into the whole grain.

1:01:36So it's fun to meet those folks behind the things and hear their stories and get to know them even better. So I think that's how I've approached coming here. But it's also just asking friends who grew up here or have lived here for a long time, I'm like, hey, where's the best place to go now? Or what's the hidden gem that's not getting all the, you know, that's been here forever that you should go back to? It's such a wonderful city. And it's cool to be able to explore and find that new place in a strip mall up at the airport. Yes, it's so good. That's great. Now, you make this argument. I think many of us assume that fall and winter is like when you bake and that's the best time to bake.

1:02:09And I think we're conditioned as Americans to like bake so much during the holidays. And it's obviously cool. but you make this very strong case in the book that it is not the peak baking season it's actually like summer which i think here actually goes into obviously september into october so right now is like peak baking season make that argument for the audience a little bit and like why baking should really be a summer into fall activity it's just if you know if you cook seasonally if you go to the farmer's market if up here you there's fruit on the roadside everywhere it's when I want to get in the kitchen and grab those cherries, grab the, I have apricots sitting on my counter that are begging for me to do something with them.

1:02:49It's the most fun time to bake with all of these great ingredients that we have. And they come all of a sudden in abundance and by fall they're gone unless you freeze them. But that's when I want to get into the kitchen and bake. It's also when you have up here, you have a lot of people at your house. You have, you're having events outside. So it's a fun time to bake a pie, to bake a cake with the great ingredients here. So I really think I call summer baking season, because especially up here, it's when you have all the great ingredients. And summer meaning October too. Yeah, here, summer goes through October.

1:03:22Yeah, it goes through October. So we always have this problem. You go to the farmer's market, you buy those crates of raspberries, blueberries, go back in maybe plums in a different time of year. Like, what do we do? Like, I mean, I don't have that much time. I want to bake something, but I don't have the three hours to like make a cake with multiple bake steps and layering. What from the book or just your knowledge, what would be a couple recipes that you can have in mind? I always think you can like put any fruit with shortcake, which those take no time to bake. And you can also like make the dough ahead and freeze it.

1:03:58And then you just macerate the fruit in some sugar. Like it's peach shortcake is really lovely. If you don't want to get in there and bake, that's really where I go to a lot. But also I spend a lot of time, I like to cut up fruit and freeze it so that in the middle of the long winter we have here, you can spend like a nice winter day, like baking a tart or baking a pie and you get a taste of summer in February when you're, it's kind of gray and you're ready for the summer. Yeah. So what's like the simplest recipe in the book that you could just like throw together? Ooh, there's a lot. I think that something, again, like the shortcake in the front, making a batch of vanilla pudding and putting some fresh fruit on it.

1:04:38I'm a big pudding fan. It's an understated little dessert that you can throw together and kids love. I made some with my niece last week as a fun way. It's like, oh, we have some peaches. We can just make some pudding and have peaches. That's such a great idea. I think when you think about baking, you think you have to turn on the oven. but you know the act of making dessert and pastry is not necessarily all about the oven and great example with the with the pudding is there another example yeah i think the strawberry pies one is what i call a low bake dessert yeah it's just fresh fruit on there um something like a pavlova is really fun too because it takes a little long but low temperature bake that's pretty simple can actually make those a day ahead people don't realize if you have an airtight container and then it's just a mountain of fruit and whipped cream on top so it works with every season it's gluten-free.

1:05:24Oh yeah, there you go. For all parties. Plan B is a backup birth control option that's there for you when things don't go according to plan. It specifically works after unprotected sex and before pregnancy occurs by temporarily delaying ovulation. Plan B is available nationwide at all major retailers and through delivery apps like DoorDash. No ID, prescription, or age requirement. It's the number one OBGYN recommended brand of emergency contraception and it won't impact your future fertility that's freedom to be use as directed let's go back a little bit to um you know oliver winery you worked there you poured wine there and you you work in the wine industry you know after that and i want to know like your how did your experience in wine kind of inform this second career of yours um as a baker as a tv show contestant we'll we'll talk about that and and you know doing well on that show so i think first of all like i always was interested in food and like to taste different things but when you work in i worked in a winery tasting room we're giving people free samples of wine every day so it's always it's very positive everything's happy nobody's mad um but you're talking with people about food and wine all day and my colleagues were all great cooks loved food so you're just talking about food and wine all day.

1:06:49So first of all, you're exposed to a lot of things, but then you really learn sitting, standing across from a tasting bar and how to communicate about flavor, about aroma, about pairing with all sorts of people. I had people who had never had wine before. This is in Southern Indiana. And then we had people from the university who were like worldly and traveled. So you had to be able to talk to both of those people. And how do you explain i think wine is an interesting way to think it's a good way to distill flavor and aroma because it's all just the same it's like a liquid of a color and so you can't say you can look at a raspberry and say oh this tastes like raspberry but you can smell a wine and you have to tease out like what are these aromas and the flavors you can say it's at how's the acidity the sweetness so it teaches you to tease out these parts of of tasting and smelling in a way and helps you create some language around that since you're talking about it all day really smart i think you're so right like when you gain those sensory skills and it is like a liquid you can't really like there's no texture there at all it really refines your palate i get like were you baking at that point in your life in southern indiana i was cooking a lot i cooked for friends a lot but i still like to improvise so i had a few things i could bake but i liked to improvise with my baking and that didn't always turn out well like if you cut the sugar in half and then the cookies tastes like dog treats.

1:08:08You're like, okay. So I didn't think I was a good baker back then. Well, let's go back to when you became a baker because you're not professionally trained. You're not a pastry school grad. You credit in the book, Jim Leahy's no-knead bread recipe, also just buying a digital scale as like your education. But how did you as a home baker kind of level up? And I think many in the audience have those aspirations of going to the next level possibly starting a cottage baking business, you know, and beyond. Give us some advice. I am a voracious reader. I love cookbooks. I have like 300 at home. I get a lot from the library.

1:08:49And I just sit down and read them cover to cover. And I absorb that information. I don't remember high school biology, but I remember these things I read in these cookbooks about gluten, about butter, about yeast, all these things stick in my head. So I read a lot. I was a big fan of the great british baking show and they would make a new type of baked good like shoe pastry and i'm like oh i've never made that i have to make that i have to see how that is they look so hard and then i make it and it's easy so it's it's a combination of that and i grew up on food network in the early 2000s i'm one of those folks who watched you know sarah moulton and emerald and i would actually come home from school and i would take a nap with food network on because i always knew that when i woke up something nice would be on i think i absorbed some of it during those naps I have similar memories I remember coming home with Rachel Ray God bless Rachel Ray taught us all to cook let's talk about the digital scale I was going to poll the audience but I don't want to embarrass anyone I know many of you have it but some of you don't but to me, writing my books I'm just like, everyone needs to buy a digital scale but you, in your book really articulated well over several pages about why digital scale is really important.

1:10:04For those who aren't true believers, explain. Yeah, and I talked about this to the folks who were here earlier for a minute. So first of all, it's more accurate. Like a cup of flour can weigh anywhere between 110 grams and 160 grams. And that's a big difference if you're making a cake or cookies or bread. And it's also faster. You put something in the bowl, you tear it out to zero, you add the next ingredient. You don't have to find the next measuring cup. And then the big one for me is you wash fewer dishes. You don't have sticky measuring cups. You don't have to clean out one ingredient from this measuring spoon.

1:10:40It just, it saves you time and effort, which if you're, you know, doing all your dishes at home, you don't want to do extra. No, you don't. And the first point is the most important is like 120 to 160 grams is that cup of flour. If you, you know, is it like a little bit of a pat? Is it like a lot of a pat? And that's why your cookies, you know, your, not your cookies, your cookies are great, But like cookies can be like those cake bombs. And that's because maybe that friend had been patting the top of that cup a little bit more. Yeah. I mean, there's other ways. It's not just about flour, though.

1:11:13It's like all the ingredients. Everything. A big one is fruit. Like you can't say six apricots. I've had tiny apricots. I've had ones the size of peaches. And if you weigh them, they're all the same. Or do you measure the nuts after they're chopped or before they're chopped? If you weigh them, it's the same weight. So it takes a lot of that guesswork out of baking with some of those funky ingredients aside from just flour. I want to talk about the TV show, Great American Baking Show. So you auditioned multiple times. Yes. So what is that process like, you know, auditioning and then getting far and maybe not getting the result and then re-auditioning?

1:11:50Or did you say, no, I don't know the history. So I just kept auditioning. One, I kind of enjoyed the process. It helped you learn, too, to bake. Like it helped you figure out, is this the right fit for me? But I got pretty far in the audition process several times. And I realized at that point, it's not because I'm a bad baker. It's because they're trying to get the right cast of people on there. And actually, I think like I was meant to be that it happened when it did, because I think it was the perfect time. It was the perfect season to be on, the perfect cast to be on. So I really, and I thought of it more as like a fun, this will be a bonus if I get on it.

1:12:25I wasn't banking on getting on it. I wasn't like putting all my hopes in that. I thought this will be a fun life surprise if I get on this show. So I've talked to folks who've competed in a lot of these shows and like you have to stay sharp when you're on the downtime, right? Like you're in your hotel room or you're like sequestered, right? You don't have your phone anywhere. So are you like practicing before each round? How does that work? Yeah. So you prepare the signature and showstopper challenges ahead of time. So you have a few weeks at home to do that. Not a lot of time. People are like, oh, you should have practiced more.

1:12:56I'm like, I had a full time job. at the office working for a local government. So I didn't have that much time to practice. So you have to write these 25-page recipes with all these components to build a cookie structure. That's not a one-page recipe. So you have to do lots of math, write these recipes. Then when you're there, you practice before, and they're there. The main thing we had to do is practice with British ingredients because their flour is different, the butter is different. Crazy. The dairy products are so different, and some in a great way. And some, you're like, oh, wow, that whipped cream, to butter in two seconds.

1:13:28Wow. But then the days off, they're really long filming days. I'd practice a little bit. I would usually just sleep and try to rest because it's, for me, it was like conserving my energy for those long days of like focusing and concentrating because you're also used to baking in your house where it's like quiet and you know where everything is. Oh, yeah. You have all of this distraction around you. So that, like that focus takes a lot more energy than you think it might. Were there like sharp elbows amongst the competitors? Be honest. There were not. Really? We would have questions about, hey, the ovens are different.

1:13:59How are you working this out? And we would sit down and strategize with each other. There was my friend Sarah Chang, who's also from Chicago, who also loves Michigan cherries. We both made cherry hand pies, and we were like, I'm not changing my recipe. I'm not changing my recipe because these are both our favorite things. Sarah's were maybe slightly better than mine. Oh, yeah? I mean, this happens sometimes in competition. you won the showstopper with a giant corn croquemboosh, right? Yes, yes. Literally an ear of corn. Were the Brits like, what is going on? This Midwestern kid is bringing a little Midwest to the UK?

1:14:38Yeah, so I got that. You get these prompts before you travel for the show, and I got one kind of late at night. And then, of course, I'm going to bed thinking of it. And I walk. We live in a little Chicago bungle, and I walk to the bedroom, and we have these stained glass windows that kind of have a little like prairie style corn image. And I said, oh, I know what I'm doing. It's just going to be corn. And so I planned like, a croquembouche kind of looks like a corn cob. It's like little knobs stacked up. And I was like, I see this is going to be filled with like corn pastry cream. We also had to make a cake.

1:15:11So it's on top of a corn cake. We had to make nougatine, which is this almond caramel thing that I did not know what it was until we got the challenge. And I was like, that'll be the like husk of the corn. And then I also learned halfway through filming that Paul Hollywood does not think corn is an appropriate dessert flavor. Halfway through filming. Halfway through filming. And I said, well, I'm going to do this corn thing. I at least have some fellow Midwesterners here with me who can support me. And one of our hosts was Ellie Kemper, who was like, this is going to be fun. Yeah, yeah. So I was proud of it.

1:15:42It was fun. I just thought it was kind of ridiculous because if you're from Indiana, there was a slogan for a place called Indiana Beach that was called, it's like, there's more than corn in Indiana. And so I always just kept thinking about that when I was doing it. I'm like, but I'm making corn because there's a lot of it. So you turned Paul Hollywood? He was still slightly skeptical. He was skeptical. He was skeptical. I loved it. I loved every bit of it. And it worked out. Speaking of working out, how did you do on the show? How did you perform? I think pretty well. Like what place did you get?

1:16:13Yeah, first. it's my modest round of applause everyone we've got to watch this show I mean you can get it where can you get it now what channel it's on the Roku channel on their website it's free I always feel bad because I'm the modest midwestern in me I don't I'm like oh I was on this TV show one time and some people elbow me they're like you need to tell them the whole thing watch the show I mean it's free it's on Roku so you win and how long did it take did you have to keep it a secret for a long time uh almost nine months yeah wait nine months wait who did you you told somebody uh actually no i kept it pretty under lock because uh my mother who i love dearly she would have told everybody she would have told everybody and those of you who know my mom will agree so nine months yeah it comes out what's it like when is what's coming out like you're competing and honestly you're doing well, maybe you're not doing well, but you know.

1:17:11What's that like? It was really funny because it's, you know, you have all your family and friends suddenly watching the show. I told some people I was on it, so they knew, but it's a surprise I'm on it. They don't know how I'm going to do. I, you know, some people binge it and watch the whole thing right away and are texting and calling and, oh my God! And then so my parents, I was trying to get them to come to town. I'm like, come to town before you watch a show. They're like, oh, we're busy. We'll watch it with you later my mom of course binges it and then calls me and it's like you didn't tell me that you won i was like no um but it was fun it's also i two of the other contestants were in chicago with me so we got to like do a big party with all three of us so we kind of had that camaraderie of being together to watch some of the first episodes and and it was just it's just really fun to share something you really worked hard at and we had i had a lot of fun doing the show and so it was really just fun sharing those experiences i love it yeah what'd you win how much money uh zero and a cake plate.

1:18:08You won a cake plate. Zero dollars and a cake plate. Valued at$35. Okay, so you won a$35 cake plate. So it leads to my next question. You had to make some money off of this. So you had a job, but ultimately with this new platform and your rising social profile, you had the opportunity to write a cookbook. Yeah. You write the cookbook, and let's get into it. You write that the book is not the history of Midwestern food. You made that very clear in the introduction. Why that approach and not like this is the history of baking in the Midwest? So there's two other books I really love that focus on Midwestern baking.

1:18:48One is Midwest Made by Shauna Seaver, where she did found like really unique baked goods across the Midwest. And then my friend Paul Fairbach from Chicago, who owns a restaurant called Big Jones, wrote this really well-researched deep dive into the history and sociology of Midwestern food. So I knew it wasn't going to be those two. And I actually was talking with Paul about his book. And he said, no, make your book like your version of your food. And it can be kind of a snapshot of what you think Midwestern baking is now and not worry too much about the past. But then I also tapped into my German heritage a little bit and wanted to explore maybe there's some interesting, I think interesting bread recipes that hint at my German heritage that may have been baked here in the past, but have fallen away with industrialization and assimilation and lots of other things.

1:19:39So I tried to bring a few things back, but also, and also use a lot of Midwestern produce like corn, cherries, our favorite things. Yeah. Well, I know you're going to LA tomorrow for a book event. So I know folks here know Midwestern baking in some sense, but say you're speaking to an audience of California people who don't know, how do you describe Midwest baking? I always say it's, you know, it's kind of humble. It doesn't try to be like different or outlandish, very comforting. Again, really celebrates the seasons and our produce because they, you know, like we don't have beautiful produce all year long.

1:20:17And so I tried to make my book reflect that. So a lot of the recipes are really classic, but maybe with like my little twist to make it new or something special. So that's, I really kept super classic to a lot of my recipes because I think like this is, I can't improve this cherry pie by adding any spice or anything. I just want to taste the cherries. Did you do puppy chow in this book? Oh, I didn't, but I love that. Okay, because like that's to me as a West Michigan kid, puppy chow to me. Yes. And you know, when I moved to the East Coast 25 years ago, my friends from like Buffalo, they call it Muddy Buddies.

1:20:52which I'm like we call it puppy chow here Indiana we did too so give us a few of these recipes these iconic midwestern recipes that you really wanted to tackle but with your own spin so my version of cinnamon rolls which like I could have put cardamom in it I could have put something else in it but I was like well first of all I knew my mother would be upset if I just didn't make a classic cinnamon roll and so I'm like I don't there's so many great cinnamon roll recipes out there. I need to figure out what my angle is on it. And I, you know, make a dough that is super soft and like squidgy and stays there using this like flour paste that you cook on the stove.

1:21:33But then the secret ingredient is malt powder, which is not like, it's not, it doesn't jump out at you as like, this is different. It's just like, Ooh, what's that like cozy, comfy flavor in here. It almost adds like a new mommy flavor to it. And it just kind of, to me, sends it over the top. and it's just that little bit to make it cozier. I made my strawberry pie. I put pretzels in the crust instead of graham crackers. It's just a little twist. I use a lot of herbs too where I sneak in a little rosemary, a little tarragon, a little lemon verbena. Cherry pie. Sour cherries, sweet cherries. Is there even a question?

1:22:10We asked this early in the panel, but I want to dig into a little deeper here because I think some people maybe use sweet cherries for cherry pie. And that's a choice, but I think for me, for me it's like for me it's montmorency sour cherries is the is the like specific variety i need for the cherry pie flavor i want um and i think it's the only option and it's a fun thing as i have friends in california who are like oh we can't get those and i'm like well you got to come here and try our beautiful cherries because you have beautiful cherries but ours are special just for pie just for pie the ones here of course and i think that's the thing that when you leave Traverse City, you get a very different cherry experience with your pies.

1:22:49Yeah. And I think to me, sour cherries are my favorite baking fruit. And I've talked to a lot of other bakers actually across the states who agree. They're like, it just has this punch of flavor that you can't get from any other fruit. It almost tastes like cherry candy. Yeah. You make a very cool case that the Black Forest cake is somehow not a Midwestern pastry. It has other, you know, origins. But it's like the perfect Midwestern dessert. You make your own version in the book. Make that argument here for, like, Black Forest. We, like, Traverse City needs to, like, kind of embrace Black Forest.

1:23:27Yeah, whereas I say you don't put sour cherries in, you know, you only use sour cherries in pie. Black Forest cake is the perfect venue for sweet cherries because you can just soak them in some booze, put them in this cake that's almost like a trifle. Like it's whip, it's just whipped cream, a fluffy, fluffy cake, and then tons of fresh cherries. So it's the perfect like a midsummer bake. And we got a lot of folks of German heritage here. We should love Black Forest, anything. I think it needs a Renaissance. I agree. I think it's such an underrated. I think once you get it in front of you and it's baked properly, it's like, wow, I forgot I loved black cherry.

1:24:01It's so good. It's not all sweets in here. And one of the more savory recipes is a hot dog focaccia. Now, baking with hot dogs, big in Korea. I've written some books on Korean cuisine, so it's actually big in Korea, but less known here. So I appreciate it. So talk about your focaccia base and the dough that you're using and how you integrate hot dogs into to actually make it feel your style. So it's a no-knead overnight rice focaccia, so it gets a lot of flavor from a long fermentation. and there was really one day where I was Chicago hot dogs were one of my top five favorite dishes on the planet and I was thinking of like how can I Chicago dogify a lot of things and then I was like what if I just push the hot dogs into the dough before I bake it and that's basically all you do and then you top it with the appropriate set of toppings I had an editor during the book process she's like oh you should cut all these lists of toppings and just put toppings top as you want And I was like, no, no, no, no, no.

1:25:01It's a Chicago dog. It has certain toppings. Yeah, like celery salt, right? Yes. Sport pepper. Tomatoes. Tomatoes. Onions. Yeah. That bright green relish. Never ketchup. Never ketchup. You're a never ketchup guy, right? Not on a Chicago dog. No. Other hot dogs, it's okay. You're okay. Another hot dog that's been on a Chicago dog. Okay, appreciate that. Let's talk more about savory recipes in the book. What are some other ones that you want to call out? There's a couple that use, So one of my favorite recipes is my like pie crust flaky pastry recipe. And you can turn that into almost anything. So right now I'm just thinking summer food because it's summer.

1:25:37I have like a sweet corn tomato and red pepper galette. That is just like a celebration of summer produce in a galette. And then one of my all time favorite recipes in here is one I worked with my fellow baking show contestant Sarah Chang on. And it is a sausage roll but kind of flavored with like a Chinese dumpling filling. so it has pork and cabbage and ginger and all this stuff and we tested that recipe at her house and ate almost all of them in one sitting and i was like oh it's a keeper are you gonna open a bakery i'm never gonna open a big wow never why i love it because like sometimes i open that door and sometimes you like dip your toe in the door your elbow but you're like closing it right away why yeah so my other career is really spent working in economic development, mostly with small business owners.

1:26:26So I've seen how hard people work. I know how much they pay themselves, which is usually very little. And it's wonderful. I love going to bakeries and supporting those folks. I just know it's not in me to sell my baked goods, even just like selling a cake to a friend. I'm not going to do that. Because, you know, financially, it's not going to work. And I really like the writing part. I love sitting down and like figuring out how to try to write a recipe so that somebody at home can make it or telling a story about this food. I figured that's my niche. And I knew that pretty clearly once people started asking me, like, can you make me a cake or will you open a bakery?

1:27:04And I thought, no, I'm not. Yeah, it's good that you know that. So with that then, so there's another book in the works, at least in your brain or what? I know this is like the release week, so that's a hard question, but these things take time. This book was multiple years in the making. So what do you think? I have at least two in my head. I'm like, these two need to come out. What are they? Broadly. Yeah, so we've talked briefly about German bread. I think Germany has the best bread on the planet overall. And I've been actually traveling to Germany studying bread baking, studying to become a certified bread sommelier, which I have to go in September and take exams for several days.

1:27:46And I've been meeting with bakers all across Germany. I studied at a bakery for a few days. And I think that there's no book in English on German bread. I talked to Louisa Weiss, who's written about German food. And I mentioned this to her and she said, I'm not going to write that book, but somebody needs to. She's like co-signed. I mean, Louisa's amazing. Her book is probably here. But to get her kind of endorsement is you have to go for it. Yeah. So it's one of those things where I'm like, I must do this. That's so cool. I mean, like backing up bread sommelier. Yes, that's crazy and cool. I didn't know.

1:28:21I've literally never heard that. So what did tell us about that? So like I mentioned, like bread is the most important food to Germans. And there's tons of German bakers and amazing bakeries across I say German speaking Europe at large. So Austria and Switzerland and Northern Italy. And kind of like winemakers, the winemaker might not be the best person to communicate about their wine to the public. So we have sommeliers in restaurants and folks to talk about wine. The German baking industry realized they needed that a little bit because they saw bread consumption go down. And so they started this program to train bakers to talk to the customers about bread, why bread is good for you, why there's all these different flavors and aromas.

1:29:02Because you go to a restaurant, somebody describes the wine of like flavors of raspberries and cedar and smoke. And they say, well, how's the bread? Oh, it's good. And so I went to Germany. I did a baking class there and I learned about this program. And I think there's one or two other Americans who have gotten the certification. They just started offering an English a couple of years ago. And I said, oh, this is something I need to do. And I've just learned so I've gone deep on bread and how to talk with people about it, because I think it's just a fascinating ancient food that needs some love.

1:29:39It's really cool that you're going on that journey. So what's the exam like? Have you been studying for it? So I wrote a 60-page paper on the history of rye breads in America. I love that. Yeah. It was fun. I learned a lot. And I'm like, oh, I could write a whole book about this is what I learned. And then we have days of written exams, oral exams, like defending a thesis. We have to, like wine sommeliers have to do, we are given breads. We have to identify them, talk about them, present them. We have to present our project that we wrote. So it is no laughing matter. No, it sounds amazing. Tell me about corn rye.

1:30:23Did you come across that? I have not come across that. There's a place in upstate New York that has corn rye. I wonder if that ever... So historically in America, a lot of early breads had both cornmeal and rye. It was because New England is not as good for growing wheat as the plains. So they grew a lot of rye because rye grows in wetter, drier, colder climates, and they had corn. So a lot of early American rye breads, because they didn't have enough rye grain, they would pair it with cornmeal and make these interesting breads. There's still a few remnants of those in certain recipes. Yeah, this is my place in upstate New York, so I feel like we've got to swap some notes on that.

1:30:58Plan B is a backup birth control option that's there for you when things don't go according to plan. It specifically works after unprotected sex and before pregnancy occurs by temporarily delaying ovulation. Plan B is available nationwide at all major retailers and through delivery apps like DoorDash. No ID, prescription or age requirement. It's the number one OBGYN recommended brand of emergency contraception and it won't impact your future fertility. That's freedom to be. Use as directed. And on This Is Taste, we ask guests about their discerning taste. Uh-oh, yeah. So to close this conversation, here's a little rapid-fire Fast and Furious taste check live in Traverse City.

1:31:40Are you ready? Yes. You got to answer all of these. Okay. And it doesn't have to be rapid. This is more of a, we can like slowly roll into them. So the best fruit. For baking, sour cherries. For eating, Red Haven peaches. I love the gasp in the audience. The worst vegetable. I think it's asparagus. I'm sorry. I think it's overrated. Gasp from the audience. I like all vegetables, but I think it's overrated. That hurts. Sorry. You're being honest, though. This is going to be great. What is your typical breakfast? It depends on the season. In the summer, it's like yogurt. and it's a mountain of fruit with a little yogurt on top.

1:32:27But often it is bread with toppings. Very German. And yes, lots of, I can, I like, I have one piece of bread with like savory toppings, one piece with like butter and jam. I can't do things simple. I love that. Okay, you have to answer this. The best dessert. Ice cream. With a bullet. Okay, take us through. I know there's no ice cream recipes, but what makes, What is your ideal ice cream experience? I like an ice cream that has some sort of chunk in it or maybe also a swirl of things. So you have a flavor journey. I like either a salty or sour or slightly bitter note to some things with a salted caramel or a tangy fruit, like a black raspberry.

1:33:15I like a lot of different flavors in my ice cream. Do you have a favorite shop here in town? Are you willing to say that? It's my house. I love making ice cream and I have a good selection. I made some black raspberry chocolate chip, which if you know Graters in Ohio, it's inspired by that. It was one of the best I made this year. A restaurant you wish you could bring back from the dead. How about a bakery? Sure, let's go. It's the Swedish Bakery in Andersonville in Chicago. It was there for about 100 years. I used to walk. I had the U-shaped counter where you'd get a ticket and order. all these really great, fun, like Swedish baked goods and coffee cake.

1:33:51I have a coffee cake inspired by it in my recipe that I made because they were closing. I said, I have to figure this out. Did you talk to them, the owners? I haven't. Oh no. And they just went away, just like retirement? I think they did. It was like 90 years. They couldn't find anybody to buy it. But another bakery that closed in Chicago called Dinkle's, I replicated their stolen, their German Christmas bread. And I printed a version of that in the Chicago Tribune. And Mr. The former owner called me right afterwards. He got my number and said, oh, that's not exactly how we make it, but it looks good.

1:34:22He had notes. Yes, and I did learn to make it in Germany, so it is traditional. A few more. When you're craving fast food, where are you going? Up here. I'm probably going to go to Glendale Burgers and get a smash burger. Yeah. That's probably it. Yeah, yeah. That's a good one. The last thing you cooked for yourself at home. So I've been home this week. and I like to microwave corn on the cob. A single corn on the cob, you microwave it for five minutes. Five minutes? Five minutes. But then it steams in there and you can slip all of the husk. You cut off the stem end and you can slip the husk and all the string out.

1:35:01So you can have it for a snack in five minutes. Wait, like no cover? No, just like you grab the corn in the husk and you put it in the microwave. No water at the base? No, you don't need it. It's magical. That's a crazy recipe. I'm going to try that. It's great. But my husband's here. He can vouch. I sometimes have a snack of just corn on the cob this time of year. Beautiful. With butter and salt. Obviously. Last one, your favorite sandwich. Ah, that's hard. It's a tie between either a banh mi or a BLT. I love those ones. Those are my favorites, too. I love that. Tell me about the banh mi. In Chicago, there's a banh mi place two blocks from our house.

1:35:40So it's so good. And there's like so many varieties. Like, do you want roast pork? Do you want chicken? Do you want the traditional with the pate on it? Do you want a vegetarian version? I love that place. It's something about the baguette, too. Yeah, and the pickles and the cilantro and the jalapeno. It's just like you get all the sour, hot, sweet, meaty. It's so good. And then with the BLT, what is the build, the mayonnaise, the bread choice? Are you salting the tomatoes? Let's break it down a little bit. Yeah, so thick bacon. crispy but it doesn't need to be like super crispy the bread it depends on my mood for the bread sometimes a sourdough but sometimes I like like a toasted soft bread and then thick slice of tomato yes with salt yeah lots of mayonnaise what brand?

1:36:31Hellman's fair not trying to put you in any other box I love all mayonnaise yeah right Dukes you're into it I love mayonnaise Martin this has been such a pleasure thank you so much Thank you, man. Thank you,

1:36:49man. This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skirzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com and make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.