837: Caper's Dana Brown Thinks AI Can't Touch Food, Eater Lost the Plot, and There's a New McNally Worth Betting On

26:59In that format, it works really well in Feed Me. I don't think it's for every format. No. But he's really landed on the style that, he's a stylist and I love that about. Well, and I think he's also, he does his own thing and I don't think he gives a shit. Like, you know what I mean? And that's great. And that's a hard place to get to as a writer, by the way, where you're not thinking too much about like, oh my God, not being, about being judged and whatever. He just kind of goes for it. I think he's right. I think it's a beautiful restaurant. I mean, it is one of the best rooms in the history of restaurants.

27:28I mean, you can't beat it. I mean, you're sitting there, like the way the metal shades sort of like glimmer, like you're in like, it's like Wizard of Oz kind of shit. I've only eaten there once. I can't believe. Only one time. I'm surprised. Twice actually. Okay. I mean, since it was revamped. The major food group. You went there before. I used to go before. To remind you again, when I had an expense account. Yeah. Well, you had a standing table. And life was really fun and I could get into places and it was when Julian Nicolini ran it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we sort of had the in there. One of the most spectacular rooms I will say, I don't know if, I don't think Jay mentioned this, the most beautiful crudité I have ever seen.

28:13Yeah. It's probably the best in the world. It's like, it's about two feet tall in this big ice bucket. It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. Fantastic martini. Yeah, I think it's underrated. I think it suffers because it's in Midtown. And I think Midtown is maybe, and I know we're sitting in Midtown, and I apologize to everyone around. Midtown is almost as uncool as it's ever been. And Midtown has never really been cool, but Midtown always had some draws, whether it was Studio 54, whether it was, you know, when I came up, whether it was Condé Nast in the day and 44, like there are always some things to keep it interesting.

28:55But I think like, you know, and I think the pandemic was a big part of this where people aren't going into Midtown as much anymore. I think media moving from Midtown all the way downtown to Fai Dai. To Slack. Yeah, yeah. Well, to Slack and down in Fai Dai and like you've seen that. I just don't think the grill is considered cool. I don't think it's in a cool neighborhood. And I think geography is very, very important to the restaurant. Love that point, Dana. It makes perfect sense. But I actually think it's a great restaurant. And I know that when they took it over, I know that there were groans.

29:32I know that there were absolute groans that Major Food Group was taking it over. I went for the first time, I don't know, probably three or four years ago. I don't think I did go in the early days when they opened. And I think they've done a hell of a job. I mean, I think it still feels like a historic room. I think the food is excellent. I was lucky enough. I went and had a drink about six months ago or maybe a year ago there. And a friend of mine knew the GM and he gave us a tour of the kitchen. And I will tell you that it is one of the most, I mean, they could almost charge money for tours of that kitchen.

30:05It is the most stunning, beautiful kitchen. I mean, they must scrub that thing every single night because they have so much respect for it. I think it's all original or close to all. I'm sure some things have been replaced, but I've never seen a kitchen like that. So I agree with Jay. Like, you know, and also everything's expensive. That's the thing. It's all flattened. I mean, right now, I mean, maybe 10 years ago is a very spendy menu. But also if you like compare it to like Carbone, it's the same. It's the same. But even, you know, that raises the point like when we had roast chicken gate a few months ago when it was, I forget what it was in Greenpoint.

30:44And everyone was like, I forget what the price was. Was it$50? I can't even remember. I think it was like$65,$75. Yeah, it was$65. It was something like that. And I think the infatuation did a really great graphic of like the price of half chicken. And you were like, they basically had every New York restaurant on there. I know. Like it was just expensive. And if you're going to go out, you know, you have to be picky. If you can only afford to go out to eat once a week, twice a week, twice a month, whatever it is. It's like you just kind of have to be a little picky because you're going to be paying a lot of money.

31:17And drop$1.50 at the grill. It is a beautiful thing. I think it's a really special treat. I think it's absolutely worth it. Great job, Jay. I like that piece a lot. Yeah, me too. Next piece is McNally Family Values by yourself, Dana Brown, writing in caper. I like this piece a lot. I think you open a couple doors here. I mean, it really is a profile of George McNally's opening of Foe, and I'll ask you about that. But also a little bit about your own experience, which I think is cool. So talk about this piece and give us a little bit about what's happening at Foe and then just your own relationship with the McNally.

31:56Yeah, my history with the McNally. Funnily enough, not really Keith. I met Keith. I went to one of the sort of now legendary book party dinners at Balthazar for Keith's book, which was just it was such a great night. And I met him briefly there, but I didn't know him that well. But funnily enough, I did. Well, I'll go back as, you know, I worked for Brian, for Keith's brother, who he opened Odeon. They opened it together along with Lynn Wagenack back in 1980, which is it's a biblical moment in New York City dining. like of the McNally's appearing and what came after and what came before. So I worked for Brian at 44 and it's through Brian that I got an interview for a job with Graydon Carter at Vanity Fair when I was 20 years old and got a job at Vanity Fair and spent 23 years there.

32:47So, so I, and Brian was part of that world. Brian was very connected socially and in the literary world. And so I was, I, you know, I've been friends with Brian now for so many years. I don't want to say how many years it was. Is he in Thailand? No, I think he's in Connecticut right now. He's in Connecticut. He was in Vietnam. He had some business stuff in Vietnam for a while. I love Brian. Brian's just, and I saw him at the Friends and Family at Faux last week, and it was so nice. Always nice to see him. His ex-wife, Anne McNally, I worked with at Vanity. Like, it's just, it's very familial. Um, but so, so yes.

33:25So, so George McNally, who's 23 years old is, has gone off on his own and is sort of following his father's Keith's footsteps opening foe, which, which has been reported on and was reported on, I think in February, March, it really got out. And we report, I, Emma, I can't remember if Emma broke it. She might've broke that story or not, but that he was building this restaurant in Tribeca. And like to me, what's so interesting about it is, you know, one of my, you know, and again, to go back to starting CAPER and what I think about this business is like, and again, this sort of AI techie proof business is like, I have watched the creative fields get decimated by technology.

34:09all across media, whether it's film, whether it's television and streaming, whether it's, you know, the death of print and magazines and the rise of, of digital and now the rise of AI. And like, this is a really difficult time to be a creative person. And, you know, back when I was younger, it was like, you had all these paths. And I, you know, I had friends, tons of friends, the magazine business was so sexy, independent film. I had so many friends going into that people moving to Hollywood to go into film and television, there just aren't that many places to go for a young creative person now.

34:42And what I really believe is that restaurants are now attracting a young creative group of people that are like, wait, I can't go there anymore. I can't go there. There are no jobs. I can't go there and work for$15 ,000. And they're really attracted to restaurants. And I think it's one of the reasons restaurants, whether they're booming financially or not they're booming culturally yeah um and which is a lot of media story too like totally it's not like the independent film and all magazines boomed financially plenty of people started magazines and worked at indie film and that's right but they were it was the center of the cultural heart it was yes but they were you you could make a decent enough living that you could survive and i'm just not sure that's that's available to most people anymore i think there is a huge push of creative people making a choice of going into restaurants.

35:34And I think in the past, the restaurant was a stepping stone. You know, everyone, when I worked in restaurants as a kid in New York, you know, whether front of the house or back of the house, like most people in front of the house were actors, writers, dancers, like this was the way to pay the bills while they were trying to get that next job. I don't think that, obviously that still exists. It absolutely still exists. I think people are choosing to go into this. And I think people are choosing to go into this because they're looking at it and going, you know, the barrier to entry is not that high.

36:08I can raise a little money. I can open up a little, you know, five table spot somewhere in Brooklyn, you know, with money borrowed from friends and family and maybe from a bank to get a little bit of it. And I can walk into this space and I can be creative and I can imagine everything, what color I'm going to put on the walls, the chairs, the music I'm going to play, the food we're going to serve. What kind of plates are we going to get? Like, it is a really creative thing. So when I saw that George was going into that, it sort of reinforced my idea of like young, creative, interesting people.

36:44And funnily enough, so I went to Friends and Family last week. I thought it was great. I hope it does really, really well. And I would never judge a place on a Friends and Family. But actually, you know, my food did come pretty quickly. And the service was really good. And I thought the food was really good. What's the menu? What's it up? You know what? It's very McNally-esque. You know, it's very McNally-esque. And, you know, it's really simple. It's really accessible. You know, there's a steak frites. There are a couple of pasta. There's a Caesar salad. There's an octopus appetizer. Like it's, you know, you're not going there for Michelin level food.

37:19And I don't think that's what they're trying to serve. They want to create a hub and they want to have like a cool crowd. Super unfussy. Yeah. I thought it was great. But what was really interesting was George's partner. And I didn't recognize him. I hadn't seen him since he was a very young boy. But old friend's son is his partner, Ezra. And Ezra, you know, he graduated college a couple of years ago. And I think his father was telling me that he had gotten into tech and his father was in technology. The tech world, his mother's an artist and a musician. And he had gone to a great university and had gone out, come back to New York, was working in tech, was working in AI and hated it.

38:07And after a year was like, I don't want to do this anymore. and he I think George was a childhood friend of his and they're still very very good friends it was like let's open a restaurant and like to me that's one of the reasons I'm also really really I just wanted to work and I wanted to succeed because it's like it's this idea in my head of why we started caper that like you know what there's a whole generation of young people who love this business and want to be in this business and it's like how can we be sort of a voice for them and a media outlet for these people who really want I love it to be in this Yeah, you're really just impressing me with the way you're framing Caper around not just like the churn and like the scoops of the big boys, but like creating like especially for like Gen Z and millennial restaurant community.

38:52For a new generation. I'm down. I'm really into that. I think that's a new way to look at what you're doing. Yeah. I'm sure it will continue to evolve. I'm rooting for a foe as well. Me too. I hope it succeeds. I think it's going to be a tough one because of the reputation. And I think people are going to judge based on the context of Keith. There's nothing he can do but just do the best he can. Exactly. And start humbly and all that. Yeah. And I think he has. I met him very briefly that night. He seems like a really solid kid. I like to hear that. Rooting for them. Next story. Where did the Italians of Carroll Gardens go by Rachel Corbett writing Curbed?

39:30Yeah. I lived in Carroll Gardens for 17 years. So I moved there in 05. You've seen it. I left in 21. So I'm like very interested in this story. I think Rachel did an amazing job. Yeah, great. It's anchored around this great interview with Joe Tirico of Marco Polo. Yeah. I don't know if you know this restaurant. Yeah, I do. Right up on Court Street. I love him. It's been a restaurant that's been opened 35 years. Yeah. He's been de-italianizing it in recent years because of neighborhood dynamics. Yeah. And now he's serving pizza, which is something that he said he would never do. You know, there's a real generational flight in this neighborhood.

40:07I saw it firsthand. Like, you know, there was a generation of kids who were their parents bought these big brownstones for like 150K. Sold them for one or two million in like 2006, 2008. Sold a little early. Sold a little early, it turns out. Yeah. Turns out it sold a little early there. The ones who kept a hold of it are the ones who've won. But I think what's food wise in this story is really a food story. she kind of frames the piece around three closures one of the sam's restaurant which was sold after being in operations for 90 95 years yeah uh fernando's focaccia ria 104 years and then caputo's bake shop 124 years just closed um a couple months ago um and and like looking at those closures she's like wondering what's happening to these restaurants and i think like one of the answers is like people are buying these restaurants and trying to preserve the Italian nature of it, which I think you're seeing at Sam's, which is opening soon.

41:01I have a reservation in a couple of weeks, so I'll report on that in three things. We used to go to Sam's for pizza and knew Louie, the guy who ran it, interesting cat. But, you know, Chirico, it's a good kicker in the piece because Chirico is like, he's here for good, but then reveals he actually lives in Staten Island. He moved out of the neighborhood. So when Danny, you look at Carroll Gardens, I'm not sure how much you had to hang out there, but I think it's like a lot of neighborhoods in Brooklyn. and thinking about preservation of legacy. And you have a great point of view, having lived here for so long and covered places like Michael's, places with history, and Luger's.

41:39What's the responsible way to preserve a name while also bringing it to the modern times? You know, Brooklyn is such an interesting case study. And I lived in Brooklyn. Again, I'm not going to age myself, so I'm not going to attach a year to this. But I moved to Park Slope at a time where there was just nothing there. And it was just off the F train at the 7th Avenue stop. And I lived near the park. And I was like, I got to get back to Manhattan. Like, this is insane. And there was really nothing out there. And going to Brooklyn felt, I hope this doesn't go, like, it felt like failure back then.

42:16It was like, I'm living in the middle of nowhere. But also, by the way, it wasn't any cheaper than the East Village at that point. I'd been living in East Village before and I went back to the East Village. You know, it was a little grittier in the East Village than Park Slope, but I was in my early 20s. You know, what's interesting to me about Brooklyn, which is basically like a lifestyle brand now, I mean, as far as the world is concerned, Brooklyn was the borough full of immigrants who either got stuck there and were just always wanted to get out and move to Long Island or New Jersey and get the suburban house with the lawn.

42:52Like, you know, it became a stopping. It was supposed to be a stopping point for immigrants, like, before they went somewhere else. it's funny to me how desirable it is now and how that previous generation of Brooklynites are like I don't want to go back to Brooklyn I don't get it I worked my ass off to get out of Brooklyn but at the same time New York has undergone not just New York but the world but New York specifically because it's my frame of reference and I've been here for far too long it has changed so much like it really has And I'm not going to be one of those grumpy people who's like, oh, it was so much better back when – you know why it was better back in the 90s?

43:35Because I was 20. That's why it was better. Right on. It's like, was it better? Sure, maybe. But things change. Cities change. And, you know, my son said something to me once when he was – my son's 16 now. But when he was about four or five years old, we were walking through Soho or the East Village or something. and he saw construction and they were building a building and he saw construction in the road. And he was like, asked me a really interesting question. He was like, dad, when are they going to finish building New York? And I was like, it's a really good question. They're never going to be done.

44:08And they're never going to be done rebuilding. And like, you just have to realize that there's constant change. There's constant turnover. However, I think right now, because things have changed so dramatically in the last, you know, 10, 20, 30 years, that there's a real nostalgia to hold on to what was there before that I don't think existed, you know, 20, 30 years ago. Definitely. When I moved here in 02, people weren't looking back at the 80s. I mean, like, yo, I wish it was like then. No, no, not at all. Even when CBs was still open, people weren't like, I wish I was at CBs in 78. Yeah. No, people were like, I like O2.

44:44Like, it's cool. Yeah, exactly. But now I think because of cost, there is reasons that nostalgia happens. I mean, Brooklyn, I think Park Slope, it's like 5K for a one-bedroom average. No, it's absurd. It's absolutely absurd. I applaud people that are – you know, Sam's is a perfect example. I know Emma was talking to the woman that bought it, who I think was at the Long Island bar before. And she's sort of a neighborhood fixture. Definitely. That's exactly who you want taking this kind of stuff over. Someone who's been in the neighborhood, who's been working somewhere, who knows the people that are going to end up being her new customers.

45:21I think it's great because what's the other option, right? That's going to become a blank street? Like that's basically the other option. God, I love to use the examples. But seriously, like what's going to happen? It's going to be a blank street or a Starbucks or a Luckin Coffee or whatever the hell these things are. I think it's great. I think it should be applauded. I think people should support these businesses. And I think it's nice for that generation. You know, you mentioned Caputo's. I think it's nice for that generation who built this stuff to see this pass on to the next generation. It might not be, you know, their family members and the younger generation might have lost interest in running these as a business and might have moved on to other things.

46:02So I think it's a really nice tribute to them that people come in, you know, they're probably not, you know, they're going to fiddle around a little bit. You know, it's like my friend Alex Pincus bought Montero on Atlantic. Oh, cool. That's your friend? Because I stopped by there actually recently with a friend. It's unchanged, basically. Unchanged. Unchanged. Unchanged. I used to go there for karaoke on Fridays. Yes. They're still doing it. Yeah. And I went and I had a beer with him there before he had bought it. and I'm blanking on the name of the guy who owned it, who was just such a character.

46:37And we sat there for two hours and he was telling us stories, you know, when there were still docks at the end of Atlantic and the sailors would come in and the fishermen and they would come and they'd buy a sandwich from the window and get a pint. And then he was telling us about the junkies and this, like, he was telling us this narrative, like, these places tell the story of New York City. Whether you know it or not, these walls tell the story and the narrative of what was there before and that to me is like so important to keep and that there's now a generation of young people who are like, I want to keep this going.

47:08You know, it's just, I think it's a really good thing and I think it should be celebrated. Montero's, they used to make you soup, like upstairs in the apartment and bring it down. I think he's talking about doing, he might've started doing like Sunday night dinners or something. Good, I hope they do that. Montero's is a real classic and they haven't changed anything. Well, one more story. You published this a couple months ago, maybe a month ago, and it really took off. How Eater Lost Its Bite, writing in Caper, piece is great. I think it's a great piece of reporting. It really shows what you're trying to do at Caper when covering the media.

47:42And part of Caper is covering food media, which is a little navel gazery on this show, but I think it's important. The piece traces Eater's arc from the 2005 era, which I mentioned previously. Lockhart, Steele, and Ben Leventhal launched it and really were doing like Death Watch. And you kind of trace it towards, you know, through the Mandiclut era, which won a lot of beer awards and the Battalion investigation. And then, you know, the recent news that, you know, Vox, you know, spun it off and sold it off to Benski. You kind of lay out a decline in two, you give it two reasons. You know, there was an industry-wide SEO collapse, which has affected all media.

48:21And then there was like just a strategy, maybe misalignment. and I want to hear a little bit about how you think about that strategy misalignment and leaning more into lists than into the quality journalism that won the award awards. It feels very caper. This is a piece that you got a lot of people at Eater to talk off the record and a couple on the record. So I have a bunch of questions about this. I'm going to close and then get to a couple of other things. But this is a media show. So, you know, when you were speaking with these former employees at Eater, mostly off the record. What was the kind of tone of these conversations?

49:00And really, did you feel that they still kind of loved Eater, even though Eater had really changed since they were there? Because I feel there's so much pride for Eater from these employees. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, I don't think there was any sort of vitriol aimed at Eater. I mean, a lot of them had lost their jobs at Eater over the years, and there had been sort of had been successive waves of layoffs. I think it was from a place of sadness, I think. And to me, it felt less like mourning this one thing than mourning media in general and mourning an era of media that was, you know, I mean, we're living through, you know, we're living through it.

49:48You're looking at like, you know, the Paramount Warner Brothers thing. Like we are living in a moment where these giant corporations are doing whatever the hell they want. And they are condensing all these media companies. They're putting things together. These are not businesses. You know, CBS News is a perfect example. And you look at like, you look at network news. And network news never made money and was never supposed to make money. The money was made on the sitcoms and on the game shows and on the other stuff. and that supported the news and the news was important. That era is gone. And I think people miss that and I think it's sad.

50:28And Eater in many ways, food journalism for most of its lifespan, I don't know when you consider the beginning of it was, was it the first restaurant review in 1788 or whatever. But it was service journalism. Food media was service journalism. Really, that's all it was. it was recipes, it was reviews, you know. It was called the women's page. Yeah, no, basically. It was literally called the women's page. Yeah, that's what it was. And it was, and, you know, it obviously grew into something else. Eater was like the thing that really sort of changed it, you know, because even up until that era, it was still mostly service.

51:12I mean, you were getting things, you know, I mean, I still remember, Jonathan Gold's restaurant reviews and gourmet were so much more than restaurant reviews. But it was service journalism. It was telling you about a place to go eat. The bulk of it was recipes and then restaurant reviews. Yeah. I mean, he pushed criticism into something different where you're like, wow, this is really incredible writing and it's got a deeper cultural bent. I mean, Bourdain did the same thing for food writing and what food media and food writing was. But Eater was like, hey, what if we didn't do service journalism?

51:47What if we covered this like a general interest magazine covers art or whatever? I mean, it's in many ways. And I know there have been comparisons to like, oh, Kate. Yeah. And I think a lot of people have. And I don't hate it. Like, I don't think because they really were. The compliment. They were really groundbreaking in what they did. And then they were a victim of their own success. And that is a story you see over and over in not just in media, in anything where it's like, okay, then they sell, you know, were they originally sold to Vox? or did Vox buy them first? Yeah, Vox acquired them. And then, you know, Penske acquired via Vox.

52:22So Vox acquired it and then Vox acquired other things. Then Vox became this big corporate entity that had all these things and they needed to save money. So they covered whatever. And then it just, you know, this happened to have been in the SEO era. And it was like, this happened everywhere. This happened at Vanity Fair where, you know, we had VF.com and we had the magazine and they were very different things and we kind of kept them separate. But ultimately, everything had to become SEO-based. And that's, I mean, it didn't have to. And there are people that, you know, the New Yorker avoided it.

52:58And the New Yorker is actually a great lesson in like, hey, stick to what you're good at and what you do. And then the place like the hairpin avoided it and of course it went the other way. Yeah, I mean, so it's like - You had to kind of play that game. And I understand from, if I was running Vox, if I was a business type, If I was Jim Bancroft running Vox or whatever, I'd be like, well, this is how we're going to make money and we need to scale and we need to grow. And now we have investors and now we have a valuation and now we have this and we have advertisers. Like, I get it. That's like part of the business.

53:25You know, I think Eater is like one of the most important food media. I mean, it was that and The New York Times were like two of the most important of them. I mean, the Times has always been and the Times always will be just because of what it is and just because of the scale. But Eater was like – Eater became the most important sort of food media. Yeah, and credit to Amanda Kluge. Absolutely. For hiring like Rosner and Ryan Sutton and Bill Addison. Absolutely. Robert Sietzma and so many more editors. Yeah. Although I could name all my friends. No, you would actually – It's like the best people.

54:02You would go to Eater.com to read stories, not to get advice on where to go eat. You would go to read stories. It was real journalism and hanging out in L.A. doing incredible work still to this day. And then the service just became the moneymaker. I know. And so they sort of pushed back. And they kind of had to. Like, I wish it didn't, but it was like, that's the way it is. And so what do you do? You get rid of the expense of good writers. And you spend that money on the three stringers in San Francisco to just give you openings and closings and 200-word capsule reviews. Like, that's just what it became.

54:36And that's not just the story of Eater. It's a story of media. You could have paywalled it. They could have paywalled it. You know, it's funny. I asked them that. I did get an interview with sort of Eater Brass before we went in. And I was like, why didn't you paywall it? And listen, we never paywalled Vanity Fair. It was like people were petrified about the paywall. They were like, we're going to die. No one's going to pay and we're going to die. We're going to die. And it goes back to, I think the phrase I've always used was original sin in media. It was like, oh, we're just going to give this away for free here, but we'll be fine.

55:12People are going to still want the print. This is nothing. The Times did that for 20 years or whatever it is before they were like, wait, we should charge. The original sin was giving Google everything for free. And giving everything and giving Google and not understanding how this Facebook thing works. Like, oh, this is great. It's a pipeline for us and we're getting all these page views. It's like, no, no, no. They're making the money. Making like$0.99. And I think to go to the end and I, you know, I did, I got really deep into Eater for six weeks there while writing this story. You know, what happens now?

55:45I don't I don't know. You know, I mean, it's been been sold to Penske and Penske has had great success with with buying some of these these, you know, figuring out how to make these work. Do I think it's going to go back to being the old eater and and do kind of what Capers doing? no I don't at all will it become more events will it become yeah probably but maybe they'll save it maybe maybe what's the other option that it just dies well I mean there's brand equity so somebody's gonna like buy that brand somebody yes and if Penske gives up on it or it doesn't work somebody will buy that and I don't think Eater is still a really important title and important name in food I've said this off mic but I've actually never said it on mic but I'll say it here because it's in context I mean if it doesn't work out with Penske yeah Ben Leventhal Lockhart Steele yeah Get it back.

56:35Like maybe take that brand. Maybe Caper will be booming by then and we can buy it. Yeah, sure. That would be great too. I would love that. I mean, listen, like I think that what they were doing back, you know, 20 years ago was really important. I think the 2010s was really important. I agree. And they were forced to do something with their business side that just didn't quite work. And to point fingers is maybe a little immature because I think we all kind of have to deal with that here in media. But going back and reading Old Eater, it was just like, man, what a good era. It was great. Good Arab media.

57:05Plan B is a backup birth control option that's there for you when things don't go according to plan. It specifically works after unprotected sex and before pregnancy occurs by temporarily delaying ovulation. Plan B is available nationwide at all major retailers and through delivery apps like DoorDash. No ID, prescription, or age requirement. It's the number one OBGYN recommended brand of emergency contraception, and it won't impact your future fertility. That's freedom to be. Use as directed. Well, this is where we usually ask this hypothetical question. Yeah. The premise is in 1997 Vanity Fair.

57:42Yeah. There were, quote unquote, unlimited budgets. You may question that. Yeah. And I ask writers, typically, what would be the story that you would want to pitch to Vanity Fair in 1997? I feel very honored that you're here because you're the one who was actually literally taking those pitches. Yeah. So you can go back to previous episodes of this series, Food Writers, talking about food writing. Here's some great answers. Matthew Schneier went on about doing a Milanese, a$100 ,000 story on Milanese, which I think is amazing. Well, that's, by the way, that's absurd. I would do a$100 ,000 story on any sort of Milanese.

58:16You weren't assigning that. Yeah. Let's, for the sake of this conversation, take us back to that era. Yeah. What were some big food stories that you assigned? And just, like, tell us what you were paying. Just like a little bit of like what you paid. Because like I feel, let's hear it from the source. You know, okay. First of all, like I don't think I ever, I mean, aside from A.A. Gill, who was doing food stories at Vanity Fair, but that wasn't until like 2000. So in 97, we weren't doing a lot of food. A lot of the food stories we were doing at that point, I mean, maybe a profile of a chef who was doing really well, but it was less a food profile and more a lifestyle story.

58:56you know we were probably doing nostalgic stories Michael McCarty yeah or like or like yeah doing a story on like Le Cote Basque in 1982 and like the scene there or you know we did do what we did do a lot of was we would get exclusives on new big restaurant openings and I think we did Balthazar I know we did like we would do Keith's restaurants and we would do a sort of but it was a lifestyle piece about Keith faith and about him putting this together. I remember we, God, do you remember Le Cirque 2000? I was just about to say Le Cirque had to be in there. Like Le Cirque. And I remember, I think we used to throw parties at Le Cirque, but Le Cirque, like does Le Cirque mean anything to anyone anymore?

59:38I don't know when Le Cirque 2000 closed, but it was like - I think 2000, definitely pre-08. I mean, it might've closed in 08. Yeah. Yeah. Like it sort of crushed it. But like, I mean, Le Cirque was one of the most storied French restaurants in New York on the Upper East Side. And then it moved to this, I don't even know, was it the Helmsley Building? I forget, on Madison and 50th or something. And it was kind of hideous. Like, it was kind of hideous. Because Le Cirque is obviously circus, and it had this sort of like circular, like it was this 50-foot high tall ceilings. And it was a really big deal, and they spent so much money building this thing and it was kind of awful.

1:00:23It was awful and then that's the place that famously Ruth Reichel visited as herself and then she visited the skies. Yes, yes. And that was like the place she totally killed. And it was just, because it was kind of awful. Like it was too much. It was like excess. And it was like, you know, what did I say about Eater before? It was sort of a victim of its own success and like Le Cirque was like that. So we would do things like that. But my God, I mean, I just think back. It's absurd when I explain to people, like, we didn't really have budgets. Like, I would, I don't remember anyone ever being like, oh, here's you.

1:00:55That happened later, by the way, when things started to sort of tail off in the magazine business. But, like, in the 90s, you would give, like, a contract for, like, two stories for, like, what, 80K, 90K? I mean, if you were paying, I mean, if you were paying a writer, and there were writers that were making$75 ,000 a piece,$50 ,000 a piece. So you think that's just the fee to pay them to do a story. Right, plus expenses, which are unlimited. Yeah, I remember there was one story. There was a very famous writer, and I'm not going to name him because this could be semi-apocryphal. But he was doing a Washington story, and it was sort of a big-name journalist, and he was doing a political story.

1:01:35It was during the Clinton years. And I forget what hotel we put him up. I think either the Hay-Adams or the Jefferson in D.C. And he stayed there for so long that he rang up a$50 ,000 hotel bill. And I know that was sort of buzzed about a little bit, like$50 ,000 hotel bill. Yeah, in the 90s. But it was paid. Yeah, okay. Like it was just paid because we got this big writer to do this thing. It was so competitive. And that's just the way the business worked. I mean, I never, I used to send during the 2000s, I sent a lot of people to war. I sent a lot of people to the Middle East during the Iraq war.

1:02:11and I had like a direct line to some guy at some military place where I would buy the flak jackets and helmets from which would cost, you know, they were$4 ,000 or$5 ,000. They were not cheap and I'd call him and be like, hey, I need another one. You would spend$3 ,000 on a sat phone. This is before a cell phone would actually work in the desert and so you would give him a sat phone in case anything went wrong. In the name of getting a story and sending a great writer to do a great story, someone like the money didn't matter. Read Michael Greenbaum's book if you haven't already. If you're this far, you're a media fan.

1:02:41It's great. It's great. It definitely gets into that era. Oh, I helped. Michael was like, hey, will you talk to me for this book? I was like, absolutely. I'm sure you were. I think, yeah, you were definitely quoted there. I love. He did such a great job. Great job. And really, I think the journalism came out of Conde Nast. Empire of the Elite, by the way. We should say the title if you haven't read it. Great title. Great title. Same with Dilettante. I'll say great title, too. Empire of the Elite's a better title. Before we get to the last section, had they optioned the memoir for Hollywood? Yes.

1:03:13Okay, great. So it's been, I mean, who knows what happens. It's been a few years and it was like, so it's at Warner Brothers. Yeah. It's at Berlanti Productions, which is a great production company. I actually wrote the script. Okay, I was wondering, you wrote the script. Yeah, I mean, it's been, I mean, we'll see. Like, you never know. Things die and things come back to life and things don't die and things happen. And you just never know. So it's like, I don't know. It'd be fun to see that one. Well, the best thing about it is that we have Jeff Daniels attached to play the Graydon character. So if it happens, we have - I think that's great.

1:03:47That's a great casting. Who plays you? Who plays you? Who plays you? There's nothing. Nothing. We haven't gotten there. You haven't gotten there? Yeah. Who do you want to play you? God, I know. You know, it's funny. We actually, when we were first doing this and I met with him, is, what's his name who played Bourdain? Oh, yeah. He had just, his first movie had just come out. It's terrible that I can't, Dom Sessa. And we were like, God, he'd be so perfect for this. Dom Sessa, yeah. So at one point, very early on, he was going to be attached. He's good. He's a good actor. Really good actor. Really good actor.

1:04:22I thought he did a great job. I hope you see that movie one day. So, Dana, on This is Taste, we discuss about the Asserting Taste. So to close this interview, here's a rapid-fire Fast and Furious Taste Check Media Edition. Oh, God. You ready? I hope so. What is the first thing you read in the morning, and where do you read it? I am New York Times on the app in bed with hopefully my reading glasses right near me. But, yeah, I'm – you know, listen, the Times has been part of my life since birth. And I was from one of those families where it was like the times went down on the kitchen table. My one brother took the obituaries.

1:05:00I feel like I was a kid, I took the sports. My father took the front page. And other brother took culture or whatever. So times for me, if I had done Wordle at midnight, then Wordle is the first thing I do. And then I read some things. What's the first section? I'll do the TV commercial of the 80s. Gosh, what's the first section that I read now? Yeah. I scroll from the, I want to see what the Times thinks are the most important stories before I get into sections. What do you read on actual paper, if anything? Books. Can't read a digital book. I just, I can't, I can, and if forced to, but I really like to hold, I really like to hold the book.

1:05:41What was your favorite food publication growing up? You know, I didn't, I don't think I had one. Yeah, that's terrible. But I, you know, I learned to, I was what, what I think Time Magazine called those latchkey kids. There was a famous Time Magazine cover in the eighties about children of divorce who had working mothers and fathers. And so it would have to come home and sort of fend for themselves food wise. And, you know, so I learned, I really fell in love with cooking by like opening the cupboard and being like, huh, what can I do? And I think also being a stoner was like part of that equation because I ended up doing crazy shit that would sometimes work or maybe not.

1:06:19So I never really did. But then it was, you know, it wasn't until Ruth took over Gourmet that like to me that was such a perfect food magazine because it felt like a culture magazine. Yeah. And you were in the building at the time. And I was in the building at the time. That's cool. And I would, you know, and I thought, listen, Jonathan Gold was a revolutionary food writer. and I hope he gets as much credit as he deserves because his reviews were barely reviews. They were like just cultural histories of wherever he was. It's cool you say that because I think you have real perspective. Oh, I thought he was brilliant.

1:06:52Yeah, I think I reached out to him once to try to get him to write for Vanity Fair. Yeah. That was sort of my fantasy and I never made it happen. Never made it happen. No. Did you have a relationship with PBS programming at all? You know, it's funny. It's funny you say that. I didn't really, but I do. I have this memory of Jacques Pepin. I really have this memory of him. And now when I see him, I think he is such a beautiful man. I think the food that he cooks, he makes it look so simple. Even as a kid, I was like, and what's kind of great about what he does is it kind of looks crappy. The food he makes, it's not about making it look beautiful on the plate.

1:07:31It's just about the simplicity of making something that I have a real soft spot for him. And I do remember seeing him on TV as a kid because, I mean, he's been on PBS for I don't know when he went on. He was on with Julia, you know, in the 70s. Really early. And he's still on, isn't he? I don't know if he's in production, but he's definitely there playing reruns. And I see him on social media all the time. I think he is such a great just person to sort of represent the food world. Really nice guy. Yeah. A few more. So where are you at with YouTube and TikTok in terms of food content? You know, that's such a hard question.

1:08:10I try not to get too obsessed. There is, and I'm blanking on the name and I'll screw it up, but there's a sous chef in L.A. I mean, he almost has a million followers and I'm sure you follow him. And I'll look afterwards and be like, his name is like Gilly Cooks or Gilly Hilly Cooks. And he is, he must, it's, I don't think it's on his head. It might be on his chest or something, but he has a GoPro during service. And I will tell you what, it looks like you're watching a war film. And for anyone who's worked on a line in a kitchen, and it's just him preparing so many plates of food. And I forget the name of the restaurant.

1:08:50Literally almost a million. And it is the most visceral. It's like it's directed by Scorsese or something. But it's literally him just like making pasta in this. and he always, you can always hear him and I'm sure he did this once by accident and was like, that's actually really funny. And he's always in the weeds. It's always like the moment where he is just trying to plate 20 things at the same time and cook the steak and cook the pasta, whatever. But he always sort of, you can hear the whisper at the beginning. He's always like, fuck me. And he's just rushing around like this and I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on this show.

1:09:19I sure are. And it's definitely noticeable when a chef says that or cook. Yeah. Because it's like definitely means, it takes a lot to get it out. And it's just, And I think for someone who has never seen in a kitchen during like the height of service, for someone who's never worked in a kitchen, it is like one of the hardest jobs. I can't like stress how brutal it is and how hard it is. I mean, Nick. And to cook things well, like in a fine dining restaurant, to be able to cook a steak perfectly medium-rode, not overcook the pasta. You're cooking the fish in the pan. I mean, this guy has like 12 things going on at once.

1:09:54I don't know. And you've got the Yahoo's in the dining room, you know, writing Google reviews. Yeah. You've got the pressure. You know, Nick Cartola from E. Cavallini, he does that once in a while, which I think it's really fun. It's like, I mean, I could literally, I could watch a two hour service, just straight service with no breaks of like this guy's night. I mean, it's like watching a war movie. It's pretty great. Last one. Where do you want to be in five years with your media career? Oh, God. Retired, really rich. No. God, I don't know. I mean, I, you know, I love, I love caper. I love what we're doing here.

1:10:29You know, even six months in, we're at the point where I can occasionally take a breath. I mean, it's a lot of work, but I can take a little breath and appreciate what we're doing. you know it'd be nice in five years to have built this thing to have grown you know to have slowly started to add other cities and other countries to what we're doing and to have sort of built this network of this thing would be really really satisfying to me and I hope we get there I think we can get there so expanding outside of New York is I think that's absolutely in the future I think I think sooner rather than later you know probably next year that's what we're that's great start looking now i would i would speculate obviously um california like yeah and la i would speculate possibly london london london first i i nothing's set in stone but to me i could make the argument that london right now yeah whether it's and i have seen the argument that are people saying london is now a better eating city than new york and as a new yorker i can't quite get there but what i can say is that like in the last 10 years what has happened to dining and restaurant scene in London is nothing short of spectacular.

1:11:40And I, you know, it's a similar, London and New York have always been, there's always been something, it's a big international community. There's a big immigrant community that, that contributes to this thing. You know, there, there are people with really great aesthetics and taste. But I think London, London to me has become on par with New York as, as one of the most important, maybe not as an eating city, but as an important food city. For sure. I think they're, and like, and the, the interconnectedness between them. I mean, you're seeing all the London people are coming over here. You're seeing English food.

1:12:13This sort of has been elevated over there is now coming. I was in Dean's the other day and it's just like really loved, you know, really elevated British kind of published food is coming over here. And I think you're seeing now, I mean, I haven't been to London in a couple of years, but you are, you're just judging by social media. It's like the slice place, the bagel, the burger like the American thing Chris Crowley just came back from London and he was talking a lot of like the dive bar that like there's now like Brooklyn style dive bars that they're opening over there meant to look like I mean like London I've been a few times the past few years and it's becoming more New York in many ways for good or for bad yeah for good or for bad but that handshake you know with like obviously places like Dean's yeah Lourdes you know being inspired by Lourdes is fantastic I mean even like and Hawksmoor It was like one of the first that I had a drink there two weeks ago and still going.

1:13:07So anyway, I think, yeah, I think nothing's set in stone at this point, but the growth will definitely be. I mean, it's kind of like what The Athletic did. And Max came from The Athletic and The Athletic started in Chicago. And they sort of saw this hole in the market about like, oh, sports writing has been disrupted. What if we do this? And so I think that's this is sort of New York's the beginning of expansion. Well, Danny, you're always welcome back. I'm a big fan of what you all are doing at Caper. And thank you for joining the show. I'm a big fan of yours. And like, it's such a great podcast.

1:13:38And I appreciate it. It's one of the few in food that I feel like, oh, I have to listen to this. Thanks, buddy. Appreciate it. Great people on. Thank you.

1:13:50This is Taste is hosted and produced by Eliza Abarbanal and me, Matt Rodbar. The show is edited by lead producer Clayton Gumbert and supervised by Pat Stango, director of media production and development at Penguin Random House. Thanks to Shalia Harris and the production team at Penguin Random House. Theme music by Steve Rydell. Episode portraits by Louise Zergon Pomeroy. Logo design by Ellie Skrzat and Ian Dingham. Visit Taste Online at tastecooking.com And make sure to subscribe to our newsletter to keep updated on all cool things in the world of taste.