Elon Musk vs OpenAI and the Met Gala tech takeover

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0:41Hello and welcome to the Times Tech Podcast, where every week we unpack how technology is reshaping business, culture and everyday life. I'm Katie Prescott, covering all things tech here in the city of London. And I am Danny Fortson out here in Silicon Valley. Where you are living your very best tech journalist life, covering the court case to end all court cases, which as you know, I'm very, very jealous about. Yes, yes, which I love. But yes, that's right. It's the second week of this very high profile court case between Elon Musk and Sam Altman, Greg Brockman, OpenAI, etc. And I have been following it very, very closely.

1:25I just can't wait to hear everything about it. But tech bros aren't just in the courtroom this week. They've been partying hard as well. So the Met Gala, that very famous New York party, has been rebranded. Ta-da! The Tech Gala. Because so many Silicon Valley bosses turned up. and there was a huge public backlash and various protests in the weeks leading up to it. Some of the high profile techies, including Jeff Bezos and Mark Zuckerberg, had to skip the red carpet, which I would suggest was probably more irritating for their other halves who wanted to show off their dresses than for them. I'm really disappointed.

2:10I wanted to see Mark Zuckerberg show up to the Met Gala with his dorky meta glasses and some kind of ridiculous outfit that he seems to wear these days, you know, these oversized shirts and gold jeans and whatnot. We didn't get to see that. We didn't get to see that. Or him being potentially pelted with eggs anyway. Indeed, indeed. So we're going to get into some of that, this kind of crazy, weird moment in which we find ourselves. And then later on, we'll be speaking to somebody at the heart of the Silicon Valley tech scene, but who has quite a different worldview. That is Michael Birch. He is the co-founder of Bebo.

2:48You remember? I do. Yeah, I had a Beba account. For those who don't know, it's like one of the original kind of big social media sites that caught fire in those very early days. And after almost 20 years, since it originally launched, Michael is bringing it back in a new form for not the first time, not the second time, for Time 5. This is his fifth iteration. so we talk about that his dinner parties with fellow techies where ai is always the dish of the day and he explains his views on ai which unlike most of his silicon valley mates is pretty bleak it's gonna kill us all well i hope not you know i've got plans after this podcast.

3:40Parties to be at, dinner parties, court cases to attend. Exactly. Yeah, and while the tech billionaires are partying with the stars and splashing cash on lawyers in the courtroom, AI is, as we just heard from Michael Birch, hitting people out here in the real world as it's having a massive impact on the workplace. So in today's episode, we're shining a light on that ever-widening gap between big tech billionaires and the realities of the rest of the world. But why don't we start with the big party? Oh, yes. Should we do that? The Met Gala? Or should we say the Tech Gala? Or should we say, as Variety said, the Tacky Bezos Bull?

4:22Tacky. Nice. Yeah. Were you there? You know, it's so weird. I saw the pictures and I was like, and then I looked at my spam folder. Maybe they lost your address. Yeah. It's weird. um amazon's founder jeff bezos uh sponsored it with his wife lauren sanchez who was an honorary chairman and they reportedly put in 10 million dollars into the pot for it and um yeah open ai meta snap all the coolest companies in town bought tables yeah of course they did and uh Several Silicon Valley bosses attended, including Evan Spiegel from Snapchat, Sergey Brin, Google. And so did Zuckerberg actually show up or no?

5:11He did show up. But, you know, actually, the most important thing with the Met Gala is what the women wear. Of course. In general. I mean, there are a couple of exceptions. Sam Smith's outfit is pretty great. But, you know, really, you're there for the dresses, for the frocks. That's what I mean. That's the only reason I would go. but all sartorial jokes aside i think there is a thing here with this kind of high society cultural event being kind of co-opted by the techies do you not or is it you just you just think it's kind of funny i'm a bunch of nerds showing up to the party of the cool kids for the first time i don't know that it is for the first time i mean it feels like more of a take over than usual.

5:57It seems to me that there's always been a convergence between tech and culture and tech and media and tech trying to take over bits of the media in order to dominate the conversation. I mean, you look at Elon Musk buying Twitter, X, Jeff Bezos and the Washington Post. What I thought was quite interesting this time, though, is the scale of it. Yes, but also the protests about it. Yeah. Well, I think that's kind of really what's interesting, because we're also going to be talking about jobs. And we're going to be talking about AI on the show today. And if you step back and you think like people are freaking out about what AI means for jobs, what it means for society.

6:37And what's really interesting is like, Silicon Valley, historically, has kind of leaned into the idea of leaning out of just being like, we're above it all. we don't care we're over here on the west coast let us do our thing we have no interest in politics we have no interest in really culture we're going to make cool stuff that people can use and kind of change society but we're not like we're kind of apart right but now these companies are the biggest uh lobbying forces they are taking over hollywood they are building all these systems that are just kind of seeping into every nook and cranny of life, business, et cetera.

7:23And they're getting wildly rich. So it is, it feels like this is like a kind of, in a way, I mean, we're kind of joking about, you know, the fashions of people walking on the red carpet or was it a green carpet, whatever. But it's also, it's like kind of a robber baron's moment of like, these are the half a dozen dudes who are kind of shaping the world for the rest of us, whether we like it or not. and people are not happy you know because people are like what am I getting out of this because it feels like in a way you're just kind of making my life worse if it's going to be hard to get a job or keep a job or whatever and we're going to turn to that point about jobs shortly but on a more positive note I think it also shows that they still need the creatives if one of the big fears in the AI era is what happens to the creative industries I mean I think it's to your point that you made at the beginning these are the tech geeks who really really need the cool kits in order to stay relevant and have social impact and have influence and frankly to make things that the rest of us want yeah anyway well can we move on from the event of the year to the trial of the century because i've been desperate to find out what's going on so this all started last week this is elon musk versus sam altman and open ai and the rest of open ai over the ownership of the the company essentially and so this is week two and a couple things came out thus far it's been mostly greg brockman who is the one of the co-founders of an open ai and he it was him ilia sutzkover sam altman and elon musk were the kind of the core four who set this thing up back in 2015 and greg brockman is this kind of outside of tech land mostly this forgotten figure but it's really interesting he was one of the original people at stripe which is now worth 150 billion dollars and they were talking about how like his stake in open air which i'll get to in a second but he they're like trying to establish like yeah if you put in sweat equity you can get a share of a company that's worth a lot and he's like he was one of the first people he ended up being the CTO of Stripe, which is a big payments company.

9:36He said he bought his shares, bought for$6 total. And he said, I bought them by going into Patrick Collison's office, the founder and putting$6 on his desk. And they're like, what is that? What did that end up being worth? He's like, I don't know, about a hundred million. And then he fast forward to his OpenAI stake. Again, he put in$0, started it as a nonprofit, they turned it into for profit. And today, Greg Brockman, his stake is worth 30 billion. So from zero to 30 billion. Wow, that would buy you a table at the Met Gala, wouldn't it? It sure would. And they were saying, you know, Elon Musk, lawyers were really having a go at him being like, look, you're making our case.

10:26You basically started as a nonprofit. And somehow you ended up with$30 billion worth of stock in one of the largest for profit companies on the planet. And so Greg Brockman was he's still at open AI, is he? Yeah, yeah. And he also talks about during the negotiations when they were all trying to figure out how okay, they're like, this is a nonprofit, we need a lot of money to actually make this work. So they started talking about restructuring it into a for-profit with elon it got very contentious this is back in 2017 and elon as a sweetener was like i'm gonna give all you guys teslas so he gives yes he makes sure that sam altman ilia setzgever and greg bachman get free teslas ilia setzgever who's like this genius he is so touched that he produces a painting of the teslas using ai or with a paintbrush no i think this is pretty this is before ai could do anything like it was by hand that's very sweet does elon still have it yeah so it brings it to this meeting that becomes very contentious and they're like basically musk wants to like take over this new entity have control be ceo have majority stake all this stuff and they're just like no because we don't want an agi dictatorship an ai dictatorship of allah and brockman tells a story of like must getting up storming around the room he's like i thought he was gonna hit me i thought he was gonna physically attack me and then he grabbed the painting and stormed out

12:08the amazing thing about these sorts of court cases is it just gives you a glimpse into a world that otherwise we would have absolutely no idea about. And because they haven't settled and it's all in open court, it is just so enjoyable to hear about. I couldn't believe, actually, that Greg Brockman's diaries were brought into play. 400 pages. Which makes you want to never write anything down. I know. It all sounds completely mad, but you're very, very lucky to be there. OpenAI and Elon Musk strongly dispute these claims. and characterizations. But should we come back down to earth and look at something in the real world?

12:48Because as you say, I mean, you know, this all feels very existential and it's kind of billionaires fighting each other. But the reality of the introduction of AI and the acceleration of the technology is that jobs are already being lost and at least blamed on AI. I mean, I think you can argue over whether that's really the case. And the latest example of that this week was Coinbase. the crypto company, which announced that it was laying off 14 % of its staff because of reliance on AI. Yeah. And they said they're going to kind of, you know, they're remaking how they work, how they are thinking about their organization.

13:28They're experimenting what they call one person teams where you you are a person you have your AI agent and you as a kind of a team can go do stuff can go make products and blah, blah, blah. But what's really interesting, because you have coinbase you had toby letky from shopify um who's really well respected as like an operator he said last month he's like basically no new hiring like zero if you want to hire somebody you have to positively prove that the role you were hiring for can only be done by a human which again is just kind of like huh and then meta has laid laying off 8 000 people this month block a few months ago yeah and that was because they're putting over 100 billion dollars into data centers you know and it's like it's a very clear trade-off like humans versus machines you know we're gonna we're investing in machines right now almost more interesting i think than the tech companies laying people off those what we're seeing in other business sectors and there is a really clear pattern of youth unemployment rising and graduates finding it very very difficult to find jobs I mean that's the case here in the UK I think it's the case as well in the US and I think these companies actually are going to get in quite a lot of trouble further down the line because it's very easy to stop hiring at the early stages.

14:58But if you cut off your pipeline, you do still need people to control those agents and frankly, do the jobs. I think from what I've seen with AI's implementation into businesses, you need somebody who really understands their role in order to use it. Yeah, I'll give you a positive spin on this though. Yesterday, I interviewed the CEO of Notion. And Notion is like this productivity software for businesses. they're worth 11 billion dollars employ about a thousand people they're used by a bunch of the fortune 500 start and all the way down to startups and i was like how are you changing how you hire and he's like we have completely changed our hiring process he's like we have a whole new rubric that where it used to be capability and kind of expertise was like the most important now that's still important but it's much less important now and he's like we're optimizing for agency so taste agency capability and he's like so now our process is no matter who you are we want you to build something as part of the interview process how do you use ai to show what you can do he's like because capability now is almost like it's commoditized or expertise is commoditized.

16:17He just hired a high schooler. Wow. That's interesting. He had to ask the parents if he can, if they could hire him to work at their company. But this kid was so AI native, so capable. They're like, all right, we're going to hire him. We're hiring really young people who are really on it and really just all the way in on AI and, and very senior people who have really great taste and who are also leaning into AI, but like we're hiring less in the middle, which I thought was interesting. But this all leads perfectly to our fabulous guests this week. And so our guest today is one of my favorite people out here in Silicon Valley, one of my favorite stories in tech.

17:00He is Michael Birch, the co-founder of Bebo, which is the OG social media platform that came before Instagram, before TikTok. And Michael is one of the kind of OGs out here. He and his wife launched Bebo back in 2005. Three years later, sold it for$850 million. And now 20 years on, they are relaunching Bebo again. So we caught up with Michael to talk about his view from the keyboard, so to speak, as a lifetime coder, to talk about how he sees what is happening in this age of AI. We also talk about the billionaire's tax out here in California that is being proposed, which kind of really touches on that Robert Barron's point we talked about at the top of the show.

17:43And then also where he thinks tech and social media are taking us. 2005, you start it. 2008, you sell it to AOL for$850 million cash in what might have been one of the best social media deals ever because it was also cash, not AOL shares. Yes. So you and your wife, Sochi, did fabulously out of that. rode off into the sunset then bebo 234 what happened with those two was a messaging app which i thought was actually really great you had avatars and you could kind of have your avatar at someone else and like do actions like thumb pit or do other things but you bought you bought it back from aol by this point because yeah we bought another company bought it from aol and then we ended up buying it out of bankruptcy when that folded.

18:37For how much? For$1 million. $1 million. So sold it for$850, bought it back for$1 million. Yeah, they were doing a special discount. So launched version 2 and we've got about 400 ,000 members on that. We had a pretty sticky, loyal base, but it just didn't grow. And, you know, with version 1.0 days, 400 ,000 would be a real business. But nowadays, it's not. So we ended up closing that down and did version three, which was video streaming, game streaming website app. And we sold that to Twitch. But they only wanted the technology and the team. And they merged the tech into Twitch.com. So you kept the name Bebo still?

19:26Yeah, that was part of the deal. I become sentimental about Bebo at that point. I'll sell it to you, but you can't have the name. Right. And then version four was a COVID project. So at the beginning of lockdown, day one of lockdown, I watched Netflix. Day two, I thought I can't do that again. Not all day long anyway. So I started coding again, which I hadn't done for quite a few years. And so I thought it'd be fun to do a bit of coding. I thought, why don't I have another go at Bebo? So that was one of the projects I built, which, of course, was pre-AI days. And then version 5 was really, really driven by the fact that AI had become so good around the beginning of this year.

20:07There was kind of a, I mean, I've been coding really as AI rose up and I've used a very, very early versions of it and obviously use it heavily today. And it just hit this tipping point at the end of the year, beginning of this year, where it really did become very powerful. So I had this idea for the new Bebo probably two or three years ago. But then because AI became so good, I thought, you know, I can probably build this in a week or two. So I thought, let's have a go. I'm going to 100 % Vibe code it. I'm not going to write any code myself, which is the first time I've gone 100 % AI. And it was a little bit of a learning experiment to see what that would be like.

20:43I'd also never built mobile apps myself. I'd always had other people in the team do that. I'd sworn to myself I would never learn that because it's just a whole other mountain of knowledge you need. But of course, AI means you don't actually need that knowledge. You can build it without looking at the code or even understanding it. So I took on this fun project. And when I do things, I go all in. So I've been 70 plus hours a week for the last now almost 12 weeks working on that. And so for listeners who haven't seen it, what is the new Bebo? It's social media again. They've all been social media.

21:19And the concept came out, I don't use Twitter a lot, but I was on it one day and people have these weird conversations on Twitter, kind of back and forth, although it's not really designed for that. So I was watching this weird conversation, if you can call it that, on Twitter. And I was like, there's nowhere actually for people to have a conversation in public that everyone else can observe. And the analogy really is podcasting, which is the closest thing. But of course, podcasting is audio and it's intimidating for a lot of people. They're mostly pre-recorded. You can't really have the audience interact in real time with you.

21:54And so the idea came about of doing like a text-based podcast where you could have a number of hosts that are having a conversation, but then everyone else can observe that conversation. So there's a chat panel on the left where the hosts are having a conversation. They could also have guests, similar to what we're doing now. And then there's a conversation on the right, which is the audience, having a conversation about the conversation in real time. And so the hosts can see what the audience is saying, and they can actually pull them in to the conversation if they wish. So if they see a comment that's worthy of kind of introducing into the conversation, we call it crowding.

22:30They crown that comment, it comes into the main thread, and then they kind of talk about that. So I feel like two big things are happening right now that kind of directly collide in your world, which is one is AI. And two is obviously social media. And I think when we met, I had just come back from LA, where I was covering the first big social media trial, and then they had these two verdicts. And it was the first time where in court it was found that these products are by design addictive and therefore destructive. And I'm curious, like you're trying to build this new thing and you've seen what Mark Zuckerberg has done over the past 20 years.

23:13He has just eaten up any rival and now he has 3 billion people who use his services. Is there something about what social media is today that makes you think there's a place for what you're trying to build now? And what is your view broadly on social media, especially because you were there at the beginning, right? I can't remember what year Facebook was founded. Was it 2003? 2004, I think. 2004. But you were right there at the beginning. so I'd love to get your thoughts on kind of where we are today compared to how it started out and what you thought then yeah we actually did a website called ringo.com like ringo star in 2003 which was pre myspace pre-facebook I saw friendster.com a friend pinged it to me and then I was like that's amazing I was just like so drawn to it and I was like I'm gonna do this As soon as I saw his message, I started building Ringo.

24:12Launched it 13 days later. We got 400 ,000 members when 400 ,000 meant something in three months. Friendster had a million, which everyone thought was crazy. We thought, wow, we're the second biggest social network in the world with 400 ,000 members. And that's, I think, when I first got the kind of bug for social networking. And then, of course, it changed a lot. And Byspace came out. Facebook came out soon after. And then as competition always does, it drives people to try to build better products. And I think for social networking, it was about addiction and stickiness and having people be on your platform and not someone else's.

24:50And Bebo in its heyday had the longest time spent of any of the social networks per user. And so I can't say we were innocent of trying to achieve the same thing. You're trying to build a product that people love and how long they spend on your product is a true measure of that. But this was pre-days of the feed. And that's there was a kind of almost an innocence of the early days of social networking where you're just kind of going around profiles and commenting and looking. And then this sort of feed phenomena came out and everything became feed based. I personally don't use a great deal of social networking.

25:26I don't like doom scrolling. I find it an addiction that I don't want to sort of particularly partake in and so I think when we started thinking about Vivo again it was not to do a feed we don't have a feed in that sense it's more of a chat and a conversation and really try to create some meaningful dialogue and purpose to it beyond the pure do scrolling and of course we want people to come back I don't have a goal to keep people addicted but if they never come back we don't have a business but you know i think zuckerberg in the early days he'd always call facebook a social utility right he wanted it to be something that you had to have right email or sms like you can't not really have those today even and he wanted that to be true and it's it's just not true for social media i don't think any social media has to be had it's not a utility in that sense not to say that doesn't serve a purpose but it's not his original vision of what it could be.

26:28I think, I mean, you're spot on. One of the big concerns people have around social media is that doom scrolling and the algorithms that keep people addicted. But it's also about the content and what people can see. And I wonder what your view is on that in terms of how much social media companies should take that responsibility, which is what a lot of governments want them to do. Yeah, it's such a difficult thing to get the balance right. because, you know, there's a strong movement for free speech and people should be able to say what they want. And particularly in America, you know, free speech is very protected.

27:03I personally sit somewhere in between. I think there's, I don't think websites should allow hate. You can't just say whatever you want. I think it's fair to ban people who are acting inappropriately online. But you want to feel that you're in a safe community where there's a mutual respect for one another. And that's not to say people shouldn't disagree. you want to encourage some level of debate and disagreement and discourse but i think it just has to be with respect but i have a pretty clear vision of where i'd like a community to be and i think i think respect is probably the number one word that you want to encourage you know and are you uh supportive of banning it for under 16s banning social media you know it's happened in australia i think it's happening in the uk i don't know if it's fully like implemented in the u on the Yeah, but it's like it's happening all of a sudden kind of lots of different countries.

27:57It's like, you know, we're 20 years into this and people have finally decided, you know what, to your point, this isn't a utility that everyone must have. And certainly not young people, you know, whose prefrontal cortexes are still being formed. Yeah, I'm supportive of that. I think most countries are still 13. Some countries, I think Germany is already 16. We've set the new B-Rod just to be 16. as our age requirement the difficulty is actually proving it and enforcing it yeah it's i wish there were a way and i know they're talking about building that in as part of it as a way of actually doing that and i i'd very much welcome that because um oh yeah i think 16 is a more sensible age for social media myself yeah for for those who are not in san francisco so you're there you and you know a lot of people in tech world what's what's the actual the closed door conversations that people are having around ai and what do you think because obviously you're doing stuff you weren't able ever able to do before but also people are freaking out about what this means for well society work life etc yeah i'm part of a monthly dinner group of co-founders and CEOs and we meet once a month and I think I'll be doing that for 14 years now and of course as AI rose up the conversation very much shifted towards that and I would say now every single dinner conversation is around that and we often invite founders of AI companies to be part of those dinners so it's a pretty interesting conversation.

29:33Can I come next time? Maybe. I don't know. You're a tech billionaire Danny. I'm not a tech billionaire I'm close let's the same clothes. Yeah, sort of, yeah, run her up. And it's sort of a bit of a joke at the dinner because I'm always the pessimist. And there's a lot of optimists in Silicon Valley about AI. What's your pessimist take? I mean, I'm optimistic, to be fair, about 99 % of it. And I'm terrified of the 1%. My biggest fear in the short term is employment. I think it's going to take a lot of jobs in a way that we've never seen before. And it's affecting white collar versus blue collar, where I think everything else historically, industrial revolutions has really impacted blue collar.

30:16And so I think that's a totally new phenomena. And I think the speed at which it's going to happen is going to be unlike anything we've seen and the scope of it, because it will impact every job, including blue collar in the end, as kind of humanoid robots become more prevalent. So I'm pretty scared of that. And I think we're already starting to see signs of that. And I would not be surprised if by the end of this year we're seeing very meaningful change. So that's my kind of short-term fear. And then my longer-term fear is it's going to kill us all. All right, fine. Yeah. In what way are we going to die?

30:52To kill robots? Painfully, I think. Painfully. yeah as part of the uh dinner group we do these predictions at the end of each year and my prediction last year was that the imdb will um reclassify terminator as a documentary okay great

31:17sorry i'm just i'm just i'm just crying a little bit inside right now but it's fine yeah i think i think if you press hard most people will say there's a genuine risk concern i mean other negatives i think are just this um you know bad actors using it for hacking you may end up doing a video call with someone who you think is your wife but it's not it's an ai generated version of your wife and of course you're going to give your wife confidential information and you think that's proof. So, you know, that sort of thing is pretty terrifying. And then, you know, I think the bad actor thing is one way that I think it turns bad and people could use it for generating viruses, which are more deadly and contagious and something like COVID and release them for God knows why.

32:07And then, of course, there's AI itself turning against people. You know, there's already been some sort of evidence that it can start trying to defend itself when threatened and blackmailing etc yeah yeah i'm not religious so i do believe that you can create something equivalent to human and in every way and ultimately much smarter i guess it's the ultimate evolution of mankind isn't it we've created as evolution does something greater than ourselves but what tends to happen is when you create something great in yourselves you get replaced by it and i don't think there's a way of stopping it because the cat's out the bag and even if America or Europe pass laws banning it I mean China's not going to stop Russia's not stopping North Korea's not stopping it's already amongst us so yeah that's my sorry I didn't mean to be quite so depressing it's like 50 ways to leave your love of the song but kind of 50 ways to die from AI yeah but we probably won't be dying from cancer and things like that so it'll probably be like we cured cancer die human created a killer virus stay with us we'll be back in a moment to ask Michael his thoughts on one of the very politically contentious issues out here in California the billionaire tax so we will be right back

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35:14Should we go back to the real world and the more pedestrian matter of tax, which is perhaps a bit more boring, but causing a bit of an uproar. What are people saying about that in your circles, about this idea of a billionaire tax in California? The vast majority of people I know don't agree with it. I am shocked by that. turkeys christmas i was going to qualify it independent of whether they're a billionaire themselves or not right uh and i do know some billionaires who are fine with it but there's a lot of people like generally just people don't agree of people that i know i personally don't agree with it i don't think it's the right way to do it i'm actually not personally against a wealth tax but i feel it should be done at a federal level it shouldn't be a kind of one-off tax for one year it should be every year but i think particularly in the world of ai i think there will be more division between the wealthy and the poor which i don't think is a good thing and so for that reason i think a wealth tax is a good idea and it will help kind of level that playing field a little bit but do we get at the state level it just puts for california it puts it a massive disadvantage and i don't know percentage of billionaires are left but i wouldn't be surprised if it's at least half.

36:33I certainly know plenty of people who have. And I don't think that's good for California because the next business they do, they're probably not setting up in California. They're going to set it up in Austin and that's where all the jobs will go and everything else that goes with that. So, I mean, at the moment, I'm enjoying AI. I enjoy building stuff with it. I use it. It makes us all effectively superhuman. And there will be all these other benefits of the problems it solves, hopefully sometime. At some point in the future, AI will be president of America. I think that might be quite a good thing at the moment.

37:05I think there'll be AI only companies. Like, I don't think it'll be long before. Oh, we're seeing those. That's quite, I've seen, had a few. Oh, you talked, we talked about this. There was the whole like notion of the one person billion dollar company. And I think you were like, what about the zero person billion dollar company? I think that's going to happen. Yeah. The problem is, I think, is the wealth disparity and where does it all end up? And I think it has to be universal basic income is the only way that we can really continue in society. Because I think one of the problems that there may be societal unrest as people are losing their jobs, which could turn ugly, I think.

37:46And there needs to be an answer to that. If a lot of people are unemployed, what does that do to society? Whereas UBI would help address that. But of course, UBI needs to be funded. And where does the funding come from if it's not coming from all the people making the money at the top? So that's where the wealth tax needs to kick in. But I don't think America is well prepared for any of that. And we don't have a president who's sympathetic to the people. I think Scandinavian countries who have done at scale trials of UBI are probably going to do really well in this new world order that we find ourselves in.

38:22So we just need to elect President AI. You know, President BB Babu Beep Babu Beep Beep Beep Beep Surely I have a better name than that But at least it's useful to know that we'll all be paid for Even if we're going to be murdered By him That's nice Yeah So what did you think? Oh, it was great to hear from him I really love how absolutely Passionate he is about tech And coding Hearing his excitement about going back To coding again the possibilities of AI and the genuine enjoyment he has about relaunching Bebo is really inspiring. Yeah. I mean, in a way he has nothing to lose because, you know, he's beyond financially secure, but also like, yeah, I'm going to create this thing in the shadow of the Facebook, you know, multi-trillion dollar empire that is used by billions of people, because I think there's still a shot here of creating something different.

39:23It's that kind of that optimism that you know is hard to find certainly outside of silicon valley of just like yeah i'm going to try this really impossible thing because why not it it does feel kind of 2005 doesn't it it feels kind of scrappy and experimental yeah it's quite joyful but but on the flip side to that um on the pessimism side that that line he said about terminator being a documentary what do you think i'll say a lot of credible people are saying similar things but i'm also just a by nature skeptical journalist because as i mean i'm sure it's the same for you your whole job is to go out and find these people who are going to say this like really interesting or bombastic or kind of out there thing and so So I've been hearing, not necessarily we're all going to die, we're all going to be killed by AI, but you're always finding the people who are like, this time is different because of X.

40:23This thing I've invented is going to change the world because of Y. And it never really works out that way. But I do think it's interesting that otherwise sober, smart people are all saying that. so I don't dismiss it but I'm also it doesn't kind of fill me with dread because I don't know maybe it's just too big of it or too scary of an idea for my tiny mind to actually handle what I did take from that is that you should definitely try and get invited to his next dinner party oh for sure for sure and sod the mat gala I know exactly I need to like some billionaire swag though something that shows i belong so i don't i don't know what that is um okay and i'll report back okay yeah okay um anyway so that's it a little sprinkling of existential dread a little bit of fashions a little bit of uh courtroom drama we had it all this week and and if you are a tech billionaire listening and want to invite us to your dinner party drop us an email yes indeed And let us know.

41:34And that email is techpod at thetimes.co.uk. Techpod at thetimes.co.uk. And also, if you're not a tech billionaire, which is, you know, a few of our listeners are not tech billionaires yet, you can also just leave us a comment, a suggestion, a review, whatever. We love the feedback. See you next week. Goodbye. Bye.

42:25We'll see you next time. book host reads or run your own ads, and track every conversion in real time. Same skills you already have, brand new results. Acast. Acast.com slash advertise.