Tinder and Hinge safety boss on finding love with AI

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0:35That's J-O-I-N-B-I-L-T dot com slash acast. This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by Adobe. AI is changing how brands reach customers, but potential only becomes business value with the right system behind it. Adobe helps brand leaders get discovered by new audiences and deliver better customer experiences with AI that puts your team's insights into action at speed and at scale. It starts with Adobe. This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by ServiceNow. Danny, one thing we keep hearing from business leaders right now is AI sounds great, but how do you actually make it work inside a company?

1:18Exactly, because most organizations aren't neat, shiny systems. They're layers of software, legacy tech, and teams all doing things slightly differently. ServiceNow sits across all that, acting as a control tower for making work move seamlessly through the organization. Connecting people, systems, data, and increasingly AI agents so that things don't happen in silos. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com. about two-thirds of singles in a recent study we conducted in the uk say that they've used ai in their dating lives but used can mean a lot of very very different things from brainstorming creative ideas for a first date to writing messages to deep faking your profile photos and perception of the acceptability of ai usage varies dramatically hello and welcome to the interview from times tech i'm katie prescott and i am danny fortson danny big question for you today maybe not completely relevant to you but hypothetically is it acceptable to use ai in your dating profile say more is it acceptable to to go to ai to i don't know like write your description of yourself yes i think that's okay and soup up your picture soup up your picture knock some years off that is different than being like hey ai help me like make myself sound cooler it's interesting isn't it these are all questions i've been talking about with yoel roth this week he's the head of trust and safety at match group which is the company behind dating apps like they do all the big ones hinge tinder but you may remember him yes indeed his previous iteration Yes, before he was at what I like to call big dating, you know, instead of big oil.

3:16They're like big dating. He was head of trust and safety at Twitter. And I remember because he quit not long after Elon Musk took over. He said the platform wasn't as safe under him. And he had a really like very public falling out with Musk back in 2022 over his views and kind of implementation of safety at Twitter. Exactly right. He was propelled into the public eye because he was in charge of safety at a time when Musk was ripping the company apart and changing all of those quite strict rules about content moderation on the site formerly known as Twitter. And he has got, as a result, a lot to say about the state of social media today and why companies have taken a step back from safety in recent years.

4:06And so I spoke to him about that when he was on a trip to London recently. And also we spoke about online dating, of course, being a man now from big dating and how AI is affecting that. So anyway, I'll be intrigued to hear what you think. Here's Joel Roth, who is head of trust and safety at Match Group.

4:29You're one of the world's leading online safety practitioners, and you've been in this space for a hugely long time. What has drawn you to dating apps away from the world of social media? And what are some of the challenges, particularly in the safety space that you find? The short answer is I love working on dating apps because I'm a dating app success story myself. Going back to the earliest days of dating apps and smartphones, I was working on a PhD studying how people were engaging with the first generation of these apps and how they were navigating privacy and safety challenges in this new world.

5:08And along the way, as I was doing my research, I met the guy who is now my husband. And I've seen firsthand that dating apps can be one of these incredibly transformative technologies for how people connect. I've also seen that they have some pretty unique challenges in the online safety space, especially relative to social media. So what are the things that are similar with social media and what's particularly different? Every interaction online starts with authenticity and trustworthiness. Whether it's somebody that you're arguing with on social media or somebody you're connecting with on a dating app, the most important thing people look for is to know that the person they're interacting with is actually a person and not a bot or AI.

5:55And this is borne out in all of the data that we have, including our recent survey of singles in the UK. About two thirds of singles in the UK say that authenticity is the most important thing that they look for on a dating app. And so that's the foundation of the work that we do. About 98 % of the content moderation actions that we take as a company are focused on removing fake accounts, bots, catfishers, and other types of inauthenticity. And that was true of social media as well. But different in the fact that, I guess, in social media, you've got maybe more hate speech, illegal content, perhaps, that you're facing.

6:35Whereas it sounds like what you're saying is actually this is about people just proving that they are who they say they are. Yeah, that's right. I think in the context of especially public social media and social media that's focused on politics, I think interpersonal hostility and hate is much more of a consideration. And the nature of the technology incentivizes that. Unlike social media, you can't go viral on a dating app. And so the behaviors and incentives look quite different. But safety and respect are also very much a consideration on dating apps as well. Particularly with women, we see that being disrespected, abused, harassed, even overly sexualized is very much a factor that would lead to people being disengaged from dating apps.

7:23And so we work on a lot of the same questions as social media does, but with a bit of a different emphasis. Dating apps aren't free speech platforms. We are platforms that are focused on making one-on-one in-person connections. And so we place a much higher value on safety and respect than perhaps some social media sites would who are prioritizing freedom of speech. AI must make your job so much harder. You know, like any technology, I think AI is a double-edged sword. On one hand, AI is empowering bad actors to move faster. But on the other hand, it's also empowering us to move faster in detecting them and mitigating the harmful behaviors that they engage in.

8:06To give you just one example of this, across our dating apps here in the UK, we've rolled out an AI-powered feature called FaceCheck. FaceCheck is a simple video selfie that users are asked to perform when they sign up for our apps. And on the basis of that video selfie, we're able to do a wide range of things, from detecting duplicate registrations to keeping known bad actors off of the apps, all the way to giving you a verification tick if your profile photos match the video selfie. This is something that's only possible using advanced AI, and the impacts have been quite profound. We've seen a more than 60 % reduction in people's exposure to bad actors on Tinder and Hinge as we've rolled out this product, and a more than 40 % reduction in reports that we receive.

8:57So this is, I think, one of the really positive uses of AI in what we do. Equally, without a doubt, AI is empowering scammers, fraudsters and other types of bad actors to move faster and more effectively. And so it's always about striking that balance between the positive uses of the technology and the possibilities of malicious abuse. Yeah, using an AI tool sounds a lot more effective than the Facebook group, Are We Dating the Same Guy? Which people upload pictures of people that they're dating. I guess the challenges with dating apps as well is people on there are in some ways vulnerable. And that's what, you know, it's a horrible way to put it.

9:39But people are being preyed on because they are opening their hearts to finding someone. and you know it's kind of awful but it does also mean that it's it's ripe for kind of bad actors to try and abuse that yeah I mean dating is one of the most intimate and personal things that you can do you are literally putting yourself out there to people that you don't know and are seeking that most fundamental of things which is human connection and especially in a world where we're more and more connected to other people but find it harder and harder to actually translate that into friendship or relationships or in-person connection, I think you're right that there's a real vulnerability there.

10:21And without a doubt, scammers are exploiting that vulnerability. We see that AI-powered scams have been accelerated by things like large language models and chatbots, which make it easier than ever for scammers to write persuasive-sounding messages that can build that trust and confidence. It's no longer as easy to spot a scam because, you know, the language doesn't quite make sense or it seems like it was written by somebody who's not a native speaker. All of these things are streamlined through the use of AI. And so we place such a high value on investment in safety precisely because people come to our apps at that moment of greatest vulnerability.

11:03And we believe we really have a responsibility as a company to protect them using all of the resources and technology at our disposal. I'd love to ask you about AI more broadly and in the online misinformation and disinformation speech. As I said at the start, I mean, you're such a deep thinker on this subject and someone people, governments turn to for your advice. How do you think we are tackling it? And are we doing a good enough job broadly around the world to think about the rise of misinformation and disinformation? You know, my personal reflection on the state of AI discourse and especially regulatory discourse is that we sometimes are a bit distracted by the existential risk conversations and can be under focused on some of the day to day challenges that emerge around this technology.

11:54It's certainly worth giving a bit of thought to the possibility of killer robots that will end humanity. I don't want that either, to be clear. But there are very practical challenges that we're already seeing when it comes to things like election security or even AI-powered scams. We see in the research that AI language is more persuasive than ordinary human conversation, and that supercharges disinformation campaigns. We see that AI-powered imagery makes it easier for scammers to create convincing social media profiles. We see that agentic AI makes it faster for bad actors to automate multiple accounts.

12:36Those are the types of issues that I believe the tech sector and regulators need to be focused on. And certainly existential risk needs to be part of the conversation, but it's not the one that I would prioritize as highly as the day-to-day challenges we're already seeing. So when I look at a problem like the future of AI, there's both the technical side of it. How do we identify bad actors? How do we prevent misuse? How do we build things responsibly? Then also the normative side, which is like, as humans, have we figured out what it is that we collectively want from these technologies? About two-thirds of singles in a recent study we conducted in the UK, say that they've used AI in their dating lives.

13:19But used can mean a lot of very, very different things from brainstorming creative ideas for a first date to writing messages to deep faking your profile photos. And perception of the acceptability of AI usage varies dramatically across these uses. We need to be specific when we're talking about AI so that we can think about the right interventions. Do you see parallels at all with the AI safety debate and the safety debate in social media? I mean, it seems to me, you know, Facebook started just after I left university more than 20 years ago, and we're really getting to grips with some of the harms that it's caused in recent years.

14:04I mean, do you think that those sorts of harms will come out of AI? Are we doing a better job now at having that discussion? Or do you think there'll be a similar reckoning as there has been in the social media space? I think we're starting to see a faster engagement with some of the potential harms of new technologies. I think there was a real moment of utopian possibility in sort of 2009 to 2014 with social media. And it was only much later, after things like Cambridge Analytica came to light or government interference in elections, that we really started to think carefully about the ways that these technologies could be abused.

14:44With AI, I think we're seeing the cycle be substantially shortened. And so, yes, I think we're seeing some of the same recklessness around rapid technology development take place now as well. But the flip side is the feedback loop is not measured in years. It's measured in months and weeks. When we see chatbots that are potentially dangerous to children or encouraging them to harm themselves, it's an enormous tragedy. But we're also seeing that accountability comes swiftly. There are already lawsuits targeting some of the AI companies. There's substantial investigations in the UK, in the US, and we're seeing regulators move on these issues.

15:27That encourages me because it's happening a lot faster than what we saw the first time around with social media. On the lawsuit front, what did you make of the recent settlement, the meta settlement, the$18 billion settlement? I think a lot of what we're seeing in the United States at the moment is an engagement with the design of products and specifically the way that certain design conventions can be potentially dangerous to children or minors. I think that engagement is absolutely correct. And the more that we can see companies like Meta take up the basic questions of how they build their products in more responsible ways that gives users control, the better.

16:09Equally, especially working in the dating space where our products are for adults, I think we need to zoom out a little bit from some of the specific questions raised in the Meta suit and think generally about safe product design. The work that my team and I do every day is really focused on how we can create an experience that is safe and empowering for the millions of people who turn to dating apps for connection. And that doesn't just mean keeping minors out of spaces that are intended for adults. It's also about ensuring that women in particular feel safe when they're connecting online, that we're taking a hard stance on hate and abuse and harassment, and that critically, we're combating scams and fraud that impact adults.

16:55I think in the U.S., we're seeing the first version of this question focused primarily on how we protect young adults. But there's a whole set of other questions about responsible technology deployment that we have to deal with as well. And do you feel like that suit has marked a change, a change of direction in the US, a change of sentiment towards social media? I think it's too soon to tell. I do think people's relationship with technology has changed a lot. I remember, you know, in the early days that I worked at Twitter, the overwhelming sentiment was optimism about what these technologies could do for humanity.

17:35It was the days of Tadrere Square. It was the days of the Arab Spring. And what we saw from people's reactions to social media was a sense of possibility for empowering democracies and progressive social change. And that's a bit different these days. I think there is a wariness and a skepticism that undergirds all of how we engage with these tools. Even in the space of dating, we see that people are hungrier for that in-person connection and are more and more wary of spending their time, the precious free time that they have, simply scrolling passively on phones. And so I think there is a need for all of us collectively to grapple with the fact that people are more skeptical of technology.

18:24Young people are more dissatisfied with it than they've ever been. And as we build these tools, we need to do so in a way that's aligned with the changing expectations, especially of Gen Z. How do you feel about Twitter now, four years after leaving, when you look at, well, the platform that is now X? It's changed quite profoundly, both in terms of its content moderation policies, in terms of its governance, even in terms of who's using it. I am not personally on the platform anymore, so I'm not necessarily the best expert on how the conversation is shaping out these days. But I can say, you know, up to 2022, Twitter placed a very high value on safety.

19:07And we did so because we viewed it as a fundamental driver of business success and growth. And I think the incentives shaping the way X operates today are a bit different. Have you spoken to Elon Musk since you left? I have not, no. And how do you feel about the leadership of the other social media companies? And do you feel like there's a responsibility there? Or do you feel that, you know, actually, perhaps the safety conversation has dropped too far down the agenda? Technology companies are complex beasts. They're shaped by a lot of different factors, everything from the whims of their executives to what users want to pressure from advertisers to critically what regulators are looking for.

19:50And all of those factors come into play in shaping what companies do or don't prioritize. I think it's true that we've seen the major tech firms take a step back from investment in online safety in recent years. And we can speculate about why that is and why the political winds have changed. But ultimately, I don't think that what users are looking for has changed. And critically, I don't think that what regulators are looking for has changed. In fact, I would say that the regulatory tides in the UK and Europe and around the world increasingly are pushing companies to focus on safety. The question is just how does that balance out against the agenda of the executives responsible for some of the biggest companies and what their business incentives are?

20:40And talk to me about what you're seeing at Match at the moment, because I know you have just done this study into dating. Yeah, I think the most striking top line finding coming out of our study in the UK is that even as there's more ways for people to connect than ever before across Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, it's harder and harder for people to turn that into an in-person connection. The real paradox is that a third of singles didn't meet a single new person face to face in the last month. And that data is globally representative. it. Really? That's mad. Yeah. But when you think about it, it's in part driven by the fact that the traditional spaces of human connection have really eroded.

21:24If you look at where, you know, boomers traditionally would meet a partner, places like the pub or a bar, only 4 % of Gen Z say that they've met their most recent partner in one of those spaces. And so there's been a really fundamental transformation in where connection happens. That said, six in 10 UK singles say they want more of their social life to happen in person. And so there's a real sense of loss associated with this change, a feeling that we've given something up by becoming more and more connected online, but less and less connected in person. So how do you how do you change that then?

22:03And how do you get those people who are, you know, finding each other online to actually meet in person? I mean, the fundamental thing we need to do is make it easier for people to find low pressure points of connection. 40 % of Gen Z and millennial singles in the UK say that they would find organized single events like run clubs or karaoke nights appealing. And we particularly see with women that they say that they'd rather meet somebody new with friends around. And so what that tells us is that there's an appetite for connection, but it's not just any connection. And oftentimes it's not that traditional one-on-one, you meet up and you sit across a table from each other and talk version of dating.

22:47Dating is now much more social and experiential and connected. The phrase we hear again and again, especially from Gen Z, is low pressure. And so what we're focused on building are lower pressure ways for singles to connect with each other. Imagine something like going to a pickleball event. And then afterwards, if you saw somebody who caught your eye, you can go on Tinder, find that person and strike up a conversation. You have the in-person interaction to see if there's a spark, and then you can have the follow-up later on where it's lower pressure for you to have that connection one-on-one.

23:26Those are the types of experiences that Gen Z singles in particular are looking for. And it's where we think Tinder can be really well positioned to offer a compelling product experience that people want. So what you're saying is when you talk about low pressure, it's like you don't actually you have to go up to somebody and ask for their phone number because you might get rejected. And so that creates a pressure or a friction point. That's right. I mean, I think back with some horror about the experiences that I would have, you know, being at a bar and trying to mingle with people. And it's both like, do you find this person attractive?

24:02And then you have to figure out what to say. And then you have to introduce yourself. Like, I actually think technology can really make that interaction better. There is a clear product market fit around reducing the awkwardness of a first connection. But people don't always want that to be predicated on having endless online back and forth or feeling like it needs to be overdetermined so that the online back and forth exclusively leads to a date. People want the option of starting with friendship and socializing first. Thank you, Yul. Thank you so much for having me.

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26:56so there we go that's the uh the state of the dating world for you i i think that the thing that really jumped out for me was the narrative at the moment is so focused on ai killing us all yes and these there's really a dystopian view of ai and actually he says the issues are far more prosaic and they are in what's going on in disinformation and perhaps sometimes even more insidiously actually misinformation you know people just accepting what a chatbot says is correct and absolutely it's kind of pumping out nonsense um and they're just being a total lack of any sort of regulation around that which i think was really interesting and in terms of safety and just how you know how ai sort of exacerbated the problems that he would have dealt with at twitter yeah and i would just you know count me skeptical on this notion that ai is going to improve dating or finding your person online i just you know i just feel like i don't know if dating apps and i'm sure lots of people have a different view i don't know if dating apps are net positive for society you know people always figured out how to find people and you I don't know if divorce rates have improved or happiness scores have improved.

28:16And having many friends who are single and they are living through these apps, it sounds pretty brutal and it has removed all spontaneity from life, the random chat at the bar or the pub or whatever. and I just don't know if you know you're using AI to spruce spruce yourself up or to kind of cut through to find the person is going to really make a difference I loved it how at the end of the interview he talked about dating apps removing friction you know and removing the difficulty of basically having to ask for life is friction number and I was gonna say I think there is a sort of you know the in the brave act of doing that and putting yourself out there and making yourself vulnerable in those moments there's also something to be learned from that it's hugely important i'm very happily married etc but i do remember like you know you have to like pluck up the courage to go up and ask somebody for their phone number go talk to them it's like a rite of passage apparently not anymore maybe we're just but not anymore right and i think there is something lost in there but maybe i'm like old man shakes fist at cloud what a job as well moving from safety at Twitter, which was just like the world's town square and monitoring that, which was essentially his job, to now doing that in the dating world and all of the many, many issues that get thrown up there.

29:46It's just like man likes a challenge. Indeed. Anyway, well that is it for this week's episode of the Times Tech interview. Yes, please follow us everywhere. Everywhere you can. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, wherever you get your podcasts so that you never miss another episode. See you next week. I will see you next week. Bye-bye. Bye. This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by Adobe. Brand leaders know the future of reaching customers lies in AI. But getting there means creating more content and managing more data. Adobe is the foundation that turns the opportunity of AI into business value.

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