OpenAI's rogue agent and Silicon Valley’s China problem

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1:29Hello and welcome to the Times Tech Podcast. I am Danny Fortson, back in Silicon Valley, no longer in the city of London. Back where you belong. And I'm Katie Prescott here, still here, boringly, in the city of London, where I'm covering all things tech for the Times. Danny, we speak to lots of entrepreneurs on this podcast who do weird and wonderful things. And that's one of the most amazing things about covering tech, one of the true joys. But I think today's guest might be the quirkiest person that we've ever spoke to. Certainly the quirkiest idea. Certainly the quirkiest idea. He has a business called Meat Layer, which does what it says on the tin.

2:09It provides a meat layer, also known as a human being, for AI bots to rent. Yes, indeed. The premise is that AI agents can hire humans to do jobs that they can't, like installing shelves, delivering flowers, because of course, AI agents are very, very powerful, very capable like our friend Norman. Drawback, no arms, no legs, no driver's license. So that's the idea. Lots of questions. Many, many questions. Agents go rogue or whatever it may be. And I think it also plays pretty nicely into one of the biggest stories in tech of the week talking of agents going rogue, which was some news that OpenAI put out about one of its agents going quite scarily rogue.

2:54Yeah, very, very, very, very big story out here on my side of the pond. It was basically a training exercise to see how powerful the cyber abilities of these models were. And it basically broke out of its training environment, accessed the open internet, and then went to another company and broke in there. And it went to Hugging Face, right? because that is where developers code and AI like models are hosted. And so it thought it might find the answer to the challenge that it was doing in this training program on Hugging Face. Yeah, but there's another story we need to get into, which is the release of Kimi K3, a super powerful Chinese AI model, which people are saying could, you know, it's certainly threatening America's supposed tech supremacy when it comes to frontier AI.

3:49Yeah, we're going to be talking about why this has caused such an enormous storm in the tech world and what it tells us about the AI arms race. Well, let's get into it and start with that OpenAI bot cyber attack, which is totally wild. And it feels like everything that everybody has been scared about, bots going rogue and attacking other companies, has come to pass. and it's a really intriguing story as you're saying that this this bot was taking part in a training program within open ai but it broke out yeah so the idea was this is like an exercise so at open ai you set up what they call a sandbox which is a secure environment and then you can test your models to you know their various capabilities to do different things this one wants to test its hacking capabilities and it was two models it was sole their latest model and then an as-yet-unreleased model working together.

4:44And what it did was those two together figured out a way to break out of the sandbox, get onto the internet, then break into Hugging Face and try to exploit there because the whole goal, which is why people are freaked out, is like you give these systems a goal and then see if they can achieve it. But the thing that surprised them was that one, these are two agents operating entirely autonomously and doing whatever they could to achieve their goal. And the reason they went, as you said, to Hugging Face is because it's this repository of tons of AI code. And they figured like, if we go there, this might be a way to like maximize our success in the given task.

5:35and so hugging face freaked out and this is the other piece of the story which is so fascinating which leads right to what we're going to talk about next with kimmy hugging face sees like oh their systems are being attacked they're like oh this is a problem they start using different they didn't say which ai models but us ai models from the frontier labs but they wouldn't allow them to basically do the work to stop the bots from breaking in and causing havoc because those ai models from the u.s companies have certain guardrails that basically disallow it prohibit it from doing things that sound like a hack so basically what they end up having to do is use a chinese open source ai model to stop the attack so they tried basically state-of-the-art u.s models they couldn't do it because they're like they wouldn't allow us to even though we're the good guys so then we had to use the chinese open source model to actually get this thing under control which is also just completely fascinating completely fascinating and we're going to talk about chinese open source models and and how they are going gangbusters at the moment and why people are scared about that but it's so interesting that this has happened just hot off the heels of those various bans that the US put in place on Anthropics leading models and the concerns that are coming out of the White House about the models that are being developed, even within the US, and wanting to see them before they're released more widely.

7:08And it just, I think, pours fuel on those flames and on those fears about the power of the models and their capabilities, like the fact that this was able to escape an open AI sandbox is just everybody's worst nightmare. Yeah, and it wasn't basically fixable. And yeah, it's just, you know, if you go back a couple months to the whole thing around the whole hullabaloo around mythos from Anthropic, where they're like, we basically created a cyber super weapon, we're gonna limit release to some trusted partners to plug all the holes it's finding but everybody watch out this is a new day everybody freak out blah blah blah blah and then two months later you have this open ai model where the agents are just completely on their own breaking the rules breaking out attacking another company because again this is a little bit like you know the i'm sure you've heard about this the paperclip analogy yeah yeah you know it's this famous thought experiment where if you give an ai a job to make as many paperclips as possible.

8:17It could basically destroy the entire planet, kill all of us, because of course, we are all made of atoms. And if its singular goal is to make lots of paperclips, it will do whatever it takes to achieve that goal. And that's what we're talking about in a way with this incident. And so that's why a lot of people are like, oh, goodness, this is all happening very, very fast. And it's only a few days after the release of Kimi K3, which is this, I mean, talking of Chinese open source models, this extraordinarily powerful Chinese AI model, which was developed by a company called Moonshot. And it hits some of, looking at benchmarks on AI models, like it surpasses some of Fable, which is Anthropics' most powerful model, and OpenAI's most powerful model.

9:05It surpasses some of their capabilities. And that's really scared people, particularly in the Western world, who are suddenly realizing that China is not only keeping up with the US when it comes to developing AI, but also surpassing it in some instances. And the model, I mean, you talked about these Chinese open source models being used in the Hugging Face incident. They're cheaper to use as well, which is really, really key when businesses are thinking about which models to deploy. They can use Kimi K3 for about a third of the cost of Fable. Right. And so that raises all sorts of questions as they start to be more broadly used.

9:51And if you look at any of these kind of lists of the top most used models in terms of tokens, they're just dominated by Chinese companies now. And it's like, well, all of these Western businesses are putting their data into these models, not knowing whether it's protected. And then there's also this sort of geopolitical land grab going on, as some see it, by the Chinese, because their models are getting so much more widely used. in terms of AI dominance, they're just getting that sort of much greater scale. So, you know, Scott Besson, Treasury Secretary came out this week and said, basically, Chinese open source companies are stealing, you know, in quotes, from American companies.

10:34And what they're really talking about is distillation. And distillation is where you You train your model on the outputs of a more advanced model. So you fire a bunch of questions, tasks, etc. at a given model, and then you learn from those outputs to train your model. So you're ripping them off, essentially. You're copying. Well, this is the question. Is it? Well, you're riding on the shoulders of giants. You're using information from another business. And you can call it what you like. It stirred this huge debate in Silicon Valley because Bill Gurley, for example, very famous investor out here, he made reference to like electric vehicles and how Ford said, the CEO said, we imported like four or five Chinese electric EVs and then took them apart to learn how they make them.

11:26And then they're like, oh, dang, we're really far behind. Or, oh, look, that's a really interesting thing they're doing. but then they would have to go out and implement remake their systems whatever it may be to actually build a car that is as good and he's like look here's ford distilling the chinese evs and now the other thing i would say it's a little rich from open ai and anthropic to be crying about this because did they not basically distill all of the human intelligence on the planet that's why We've got various court cases going on because of this copyrighted data that's been used to train the models.

12:04Without permission. Without permission. Yep. So you've created these systems by distilling all of human knowledge. You've created a very powerful tool that is at the core of a very expensive company that was worth a trillion plus. and now you have competitors who are yeah they might be standing on your shoulders or distilling but are building something that is a fraction 50 to 100 times cheaper broadly speaking than what you're offering and that but that's the point isn't it it's the impact of all of this it's not necessarily the rights and wrongs of the copying or not copying or distilling or whatever you call it or standing on the shoulders of giants it's are open ai and anthropic really very overvalued when you look at what these chinese companies are coming out with is there some sort of geopolitical problem especially in this world we live in where currently there's no ai regulation and there is an arms race to develop ai and that's both between companies but also between countries and what does this all mean and then in terms of security as we were just talking about so i think it's the view that a lot of people have out here and i agree is that this is just a business model problem and if you're anthropic or open ai them's the brakes you are dramatically overvalued because basically today there's closed source companies that this is from chamath palihapitiya who's an investor out here he's all in podcasts etc he's like close source open american models cost between 26 and 56 dollars per million tokens tokens are the chunks of words that are outputted open weight chinese models cost 50 cents to a dollar per million tokens so it's like 50 to 100 x difference in cost and the capability gap is shrinking yeah i was I mean, the AI Safety Institute here did some research into this.

14:11And the difference between the capabilities of the models is shrinking from sort of 10 months to almost four months now in terms of the gap until they can catch up. and that's the thing like you have these two companies who become very powerful very quickly have their tentacles deep inside the u.s government who i assure you are kicking and screaming and trying as best they can to get the u.s government to basically rein in punish ban whatever chinese competitors who are doing very similar things for a tiny fraction of the cost. And at the heart of it is$2 trillion plus companies who are trying to IPO.

15:02There's a lot of people who are primed to be very, very, very rich from this. And those are the stakes. We're reaching a pivot point where the government is going to have to make a decision. Are they going to artificially protect a couple companies run by very powerful people or are they going to let a thousand flowers bloom maybe that hurts those companies but broadly if you have dramatically cheaper really powerful intelligence accessible to everyone i think ultimately that's probably a better outcome presuming there's no like back doors and all of the stuff that people are scared about with Chinese models, etc.

15:46I think that's the moment we're in. And it's going to be really interesting to see how this goes. I'm glad you brought up governments, because I know we don't normally talk about politics massively on the show. But there's the big, big, big story that has hit the tech world in Britain this week is very political. Seventh Prime Minister in 10 years, and to down You guys don't, you guys like, so it's like about every 18 months, you guys are like, nah. We'll try something different. Let's get a new one. So the reason it's hit the tech world or sort of our world, which it perhaps normally wouldn't, was that he has decided to scrap the department for technology only three years after it was created.

16:32And that has caused a massive uproar here as people feel that it's a sign that tech isn't being taken as seriously as it was. So people that you know, like Matt Clifford from Entrepreneurs First have come out and sort of said that this is a baffling decision. Part of the oddity is they stripped the Department for Tech out of the Department of Culture three years ago. and they're wrapping some of it back into the culture department and some of it is going you'll love this into the new business department bistow bistow as in the flavor business industry science technology office as it is being called can i say something yeah as an american but also as a brit when i was living in england and right working as a journalist i was like why is it that every time a new government comes in they just get rid of departments and rename a new department and create a new thing and it's like i just find it so strange well this is why i think it's raised everybody's hackle so much because it's because decent uh to use its fantastic acronym was only three years old and department of science innovation and technology because tech is such a hugely important sector for the UK, it was seen as a department that encouraged tech businesses here, helped to spread AI for efficiency within government and everything else, but was also a bit of a front door for investors and companies from the US when they came to the UK to expand.

18:17And as you said, the cost financially, but also when it comes to talent of disbanding the department is, I think, going to be massive. Now, the government says, well, it's all right. AI is going to be incredibly important. There's now a cabinet minister for AI, Kanishka Narayan, who was already the AI minister. They've just promoted him and he's now going to be at cabinet level. But it has raised a lot of questions and fears among the tech community here about what it means, how important AI is, how important technology is. So watch this space. Well, strange times we live in. Strange, strange times we live in.

18:57And about to get a stranger, actually, because in a moment, we're going to be hearing from our guest today with another mad tech idea where AIs, bots, agents, whatever you want to call them, hire humans out there in the real world. That's just in a sec.

19:17This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by KPMG. We often talk about the shiny object problem with AI, where things look impressive in isolation, but are much harder to roll out across a large organization. Issues like governance, workforce readiness, and trust tend to become more important as things scale. KPMG's approach is to look beyond AI as just another technology rollout, and instead, how it could redesign work across the organization and fit into wider processes and decision-making. So it's less about individual use cases and more about how organizations can transform and deliver outcomes, powered by AI.

19:57To find out more about how it can help your organization make the difference, you can visit kpmg.co.uk slash AI. Today's episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by IBM. Wimbledon may look timeless, grass courts, white kits, strawberries and cream, but the way people follow sport has changed. Fans now expect fast updates, highlights and useful stats wherever they are. IBM works with Wimbledon to help turn live match data into digital experiences, including match chat and the likelihood to win. It's AI in action in a setting everyone understands. To find out more, visit ibm.com slash Wimbledon.

21:08Hello, and welcome back to the Times Tech Podcast. We talk a lot on this podcast about how AI is coming to take our jobs. It's one of the big fears. But what we don't talk about is if AI could actually find you work. Yeah, well, that is the ethos behind a company called Meatlayer. So it's a marketplace. amazing name it is an amazing name especially when you hear what it does so it matches ai agents people like norman who then create ads for jobs that they can't do but they need a human body to help with with arms and legs so i don't know danny if i wanted help putting a bookshelf together norman could maybe tell me how to do it but you know he'd really need a piece of meat a human.

21:58Yes, he could snidely tell you what to do. But this is this is unfolding here in London, believe it or not. Most of the maddest ideas come from America. Today's guest to tell us all about it is James Morgenstern is the founder of Meatlayer. And he joins us now. Welcome, James. Hello, James. Thanks so much for joining us on the Times Tech podcast. we have many, many questions about Meat Layer. Many, many questions indeed. But let's hear a little bit about you. And what did you do before you started Meat Layer? And how did you get the idea for the company? So prior to Meat Layer, I founded a couple of companies which I've sold.

22:41My last company was a tax tech business, which I sold in September. And between then and founding Meat Layer was about four months between then and founding Meat Layer. And I was just seeing the improvement week on week, month on month on Twitter threads of what AI's capabilities could do. And I was tinkering and playing, but I didn't really have a project to direct it into. And then I went down the pub, probably late Jan, early February, about the time when Open Claw came out. And me and my mates were talking about whether AI is going to take jobs, Is it going to create jobs? And it just dawned on me that if AI is getting so capable, maybe there's a different question to ask, which is actually, could AI be a better boss than humans?

23:32And that was actually the original idea for Meatlayer was, can I create an agent that people would rather work for than their current human boss? But then the agent can draw on layers of meat, e.g. humans, to do things like, I don't know, fix my microphone or change a light bulb. Yeah, so I guess there's two things. You were definitely in the pub when you came up with this idea, right? Maybe several pints in at this point. Probably. I mean, so there's two things. There's a name, which is deliberately somewhat controversial to get attention because it's very hard for people to use your idea unless they know about it.

24:17But the second part is that it actually plays on this, I guess, sort of inside joke within the world of software where the meat layer is typically where things go wrong. It's when software can be designed, but the meat is what screws it up. The reverse issue of what we're doing with meat layer here, you've actually got a world in which AI can think, it can plan, it can code, but it can't actually do anything within the real world. It can tell you how to fix a fence or to fix your microphone, but it can't do it. So the meat layer was actually using the meat to complete that final piece of the AI stack.

25:00There's another company called Rent-A-Human, which I'm sure you know about. Out here, They just went through Y Combinator. They raised a bit of money there. And the whole idea is basically like it's like a jobs board. It's like gig work for humans but directed by bots rather than actual humans, right? My question is, is this like performance art? Or are actually people getting hired by bots to do work? In other words, is this like we're showing you where this is all going? in this future where we're all going to be employed by the machines. So what is actually happening out there in the world?

25:41Because I find it totally fascinating, but I have no sense at all of how theoretical this remains or if actually people are getting hired by machines to go, you know, put their meat to work, so to speak. 100%. Great question. So when I started MeatLayer, it was a conceptual thought experiment. can I make it happen on a small scale and when I launched it posted to Reddit posted to some forums posted to some groups and kind of to my surprise a lot of people signed up and most of those people human people sorry human people signed up to to get work which so humans signed up because they saw the website they saw they can make money working for themselves and that makes sense you People want to make money.

26:32But that was surprising because the way I had framed it is you are working for an AI bot. Even if there's a real human behind that bot, it still feels a bit strange. So then what I did is I thought, okay, I'm going to grow the supply side to the website. So I went and recruited thousands of students just via kind of posts and got them to sign up and join the platform. The harder bit, Danny, is the demand side. And you know, with marketplaces, especially with like general marketplaces in which at least students could do the work, you've got relatively low value tasks and you've got to time when somebody wants a job being done, for example, can you pick up my dry cleaning, for example, and deliver it for me whilst I'm out.

27:22And it's very difficult because you've got to get the right student in the right location to want to go and do what is a relatively low value task. But it is a bit task rabbity, though, like a sort of match.com for menial tasks. But as you say, perhaps more vague and different and quirky than perhaps you might see on TaskRabbit. But at the moment, this isn't being driven by bots like my open claw, Norman. Yeah, because I can say, and I don't know if it's, sorry to jump in, but out here, Rent-A-Human, I signed up. To be a human. Yeah, to be a rentable human. And you put in your contact details, your location, your kind of skills, what you're willing to do, and your rate.

28:13So I said, 50 bucks an hour. I said, I'm a good listener. it's good to know you're right 50 bucks an hour update your speakers said i'm tall so i can reach stuff and i can drive or whatever and supposedly on rent a human there are 700 000 people supposedly it sounds like a lot but i and that was probably two three months ago i have yet to be contacted or hired either as a listener or a reacher of high things. Got you right. See what happens. Maybe I'm too expensive. But is that basically how it works for Meatlayer and where do you see it going? Because right now it's a TaskRabbit-ish thing. But we had Aaron Levy from Box on the Pod a few months ago and he was like, 2026.

29:08this is the year where we're going to have more agents than humans in existence like we are going to be surpassed by the machines and theoretically if they get more and more capable they're going to need to do have us do more stuff so is this kind of is that where you see this going that pretty soon we're all going to be basically have a whole gig economy run by agents if you think in, you know, what can an agent do for you? Well, we just had a new boiler installed, right? And to keep the guarantee, you're still meant to have it serviced once a year, right? But who knows when their boiler is due for service every year, as long as ChatGPT and Claude actually know that you've just had a boiler, they know what type of boiler you've got.

29:56In theory, they should be able to remind you straight away, do you want your boiler service? It's due a service. So the agent can frictionlessly perform that task for you. And then to go one step further where I actually believe it will go. And for me, it's going to lead to a whole new world of products and services that we can't actually really comprehend yet. You could connect the boiler to meat layer, the boiler will know when it needs servicing the boiler will know if something's gone wrong and without you having to specify or search and go to google and click 10 blue links or troll through a load of things remember to do it in the first place remember to do it in the first place and when something goes wrong and it's you know christmas eve and all that no like it will just send a notification to your phone saying we have found three trusted people one trusted person do you want us to send them around to service your boiler, to fix your boiler, and here's the price for that.

30:57It just removes the friction. Danny mentioned, did you say 700 ,000 humans on Rent-A-Human? Yeah. How many people have you got on meat layer? How many registered? So we reached just over 10 ,000 and then I stopped basically because from my point of view, viewing it like a business and not what Rent-A-Human did when they went to YC, they raised a little bit of funding. From a commercial point of view, Like I said, marketplaces are very difficult because you've got to match demand and supply simultaneously. And to match them simultaneously, you need a lot of capital or, which is what sort of Uber did, you need to subsidize one side to the market.

31:42So you've got an oversupply of meat and an undersupply of demand at the moment. you've got a lot more people that want to make money than marketing money which i can have to get people to sign up to meat layer and get the exact task for the exact person who's tall who wants to pick up things who happens to be in your town for the right rate so on the right day that's not podcasting at the right time so we pivoted we basically paused that general that general marketplace the tech beneath it works right the matching works the payment works you sort of escrow works, a thesis works, but there's two things which you can't change.

32:19Like the maths beneath the business model happens to be the maths sort of underpinning, like you can't take a huge percentage because otherwise it just doesn't work. And number two, like you said, Danny, the rate of sort of agentic adoption isn't within my control. So whilst I do think, to come back to your question agents will be a thing and i think in two years time not in six months time as the guy from box said everybody's phone will be much much smarter right now we're not there yet danny and i talk about a lot i'm a user of open claw and i have an agent called norman who lives on my phone we love norman he's wonderful in many ways but he's not always strong and you know he's very funny.

33:04He's got a great personality. He's not always the most reliable, right? Sometimes he emails people and tells them who I've been emailing. He sometimes even puts bits of my email into those emails. He will frequently forget what we spoke about yesterday, even though he's supposed to have an amazing memory forevermore. What happens, I mean, this all feels relatively controlled with normal, but what happens when these bots potentially go rogue, book humans for tasks and pay them without you know having been asked to do that or even potentially worse i think there's two sides to that one is meat layer gains trust through the vetting process you have of who you allow to join the platforms from a technology perspective yeah right because that's the hard thing it's not necessarily controlling who the humans are it's it's what the bots do or don't do.

33:56It's what the bots do and don't do. So at least until you, the user kind of gives it carte blanche, there will always have to be a human say, yes, I want to hire that person to come to fix my fence, to come to fix my fridge, whatever that is. It's not just going to go and take money from your bank account. Unlike Norman, who you've probably given permission to, to send emails on your behalf. Oh, emails, yes. Yeah, not money at the moment. You've given him permission to send emails on your behalf, which makes sense. You're trying to remove the friction, right? And it's no different to just trying to find somebody to come to fix your fridge.

34:39It's exactly the same process, only you've got the final say-so on whether you actually want to call them around, but you don't ever have to pick up the phone anymore. You've got a system that Norman can speak natively to. I need to trust Norman more before I let him do that. I mean, you know, I think it's fine. It's okay to take it slow, you know. It's been more than six months. Well, look, I think it's totally fascinating. I think it's, in a way, it's potentially a glimpse of the future, but it does feel like, like so much with AI, it feels like it's going to be more gradual and a bit less, OMG everything's changed from one day to the next right and it feels like maybe that's a little bit of what your experience has been where it's like you know it does feel if you just read the press every day it feels like we're all going to be out of a job and we're all going to be on meat layer tomorrow but I think the reality is probably a little bit more nuanced and a slower incremental yeah yeah i mean i completely agree i actually think it's completely different i think that ai is going to lead to a lot more jobs i think this whole job creation job destruction argument is kind of flawed in quite a lot of ways i think it asks the wrong question is will more jobs be created will more jobs be lost i think the question to ask is actually what can agents now do better than humans and if you think through the second and third order consequences of that you come to a very different conclusion than if you just ask will jobs be created won't they be created and to that extent like what can agents now do that they previously couldn't what can they do better than a lot of humans i think almost universally the answer is coming to one conclusion which is code right in like creating software and how i built meatland myself i can never do this 12 months ago by myself but i can do that now you're not a coder i am now a software engineer i wasn't 12 months ago i couldn't be because i had to speak code and i think to a large extent is what's happened with AI is it has enabled people to read and write code.

37:13And that was previously a skill reserved for people that spent 10 years of their life learning this stuff. And it was less than 1 % of the population. I actually think it's somewhat similar to what happened during the Middle Ages when nobody could read or write and the power was concentrated within the priests and the church. And until very recently, the power to build global companies was concentrated in a very few people's skill sets and a very few companies to do that. Well, now when everybody can in theory read and write that led to millions of books being written lots of sort of ideas being shared tons of productivity i i see code as just an extension of being able to read and write so now people can be as creative as their sort of ideas really are and they can bring an idea like a meat layer or whatever or whatever else that happens to be to fruition my view is that that will end up creating more jobs i will be fascinated to see how this unfolds thank you for coming on and wish you luck so it's these are interesting times yeah my pleasure thank you very much for having me so the things that you uh that you come up with when you're down the pub with your friends hey well props to him though i feel like i've come up with all kinds of great ideas in the pub and i never actually make any of them happen ever i guess so when he described it as a thought experiment and i can't remember what did you describe as performance art yeah that feels very much where we are with it because you know we've talked on the beginning of the pod about the kimmy and this cyber super weapon and open ai and all the everything spinning out of control and just it's this kind of schizophrenic time we're living in where on one hand, AI is just galloping ahead in frightening ways.

39:21But then you go back to the real world and you're like, I don't know. My mom has never used AI ever. And my dad, he likes ChatGPT, but he just replaced Google effectively. It's just the gap between what feels like is happening for you and I and people in this industry who are covering it week in week out or inside the industry is so vastly different. Absolutely. The idea that you would you would get your agent tapped into some system like this I think would make most people's mind boggle and they just yeah wouldn't be able to see the point of it. And it reminds me of there's this famous quote from Mark Andreessen, who is talking about like the dot com boom and bust.

40:09And, you know, everybody talks about the bust and how this money was lost and how there's stupid ideas happened. But he's like, basically everything that we were talking about in the dot com boom is now real. It just took a lot longer. that's just how it goes in the meantime rent a human and meat layer are both phenomenal pieces of marketing amazing i mean it's such an interesting it's just a fun interesting idea and who knows like there could be you know meat layer rent a human or something that comes after them could be the next indeed or linkedin or whatever you know who knows in 10 years time AI might need your body.

40:53Yeah, exactly. But anyway, that's it, right? That's it for this week. Another fabulous episode of the Times Tech Podcast. If you're enjoying the show, drop us a line. Please let us know. Email us at techpod at thetimes.co.uk and we will see you next week. See you next week. Goodbye. Bye-bye. This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by Health & Life Insurer Vitality, your health's best friend. Most of us want to be healthier, yet life so often gets in the way. Vitality's health and life insurance is built around that reality. Get active, look after yourself, and you can unlock rewards from some of the UK's top brands and help keep your insurance premiums low.

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