The Interview: Ordnance Survey CEO on AI reinventing maps

0:00Danny: Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor or treat medical conditions. requires iPhone 11 or later. This episode of the Times Tech podcast is sponsored by KPMG.

0:36Katie, we've been tracking the AI surge for a while, but some of the latest data is pretty striking.

0:43Danny: It is. KPMG's latest quarterly AI pulse suggests that seven in 10 UK business leaders still see AI as a top investment priority, even if the economy slows down in the next year. But turning that investment into tangible value is another question. And so a lot of organizations are still figuring out how to move from endless AI pilots to something that works across the business. KPMG's focus is on that gap, helping organizations scale from the pilot phase to AI-powered transformation they can trust. To find out more about how KPMG can help your organization make the difference, you can visit kpmg.co.uk forward slash AI.

1:23This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by ServiceNow.

1:27Danny: Danny, one thing we keep hearing from business leaders right now is AI sounds great, but how do you actually make it work inside a company? Exactly, because most organizations aren't neat, shiny systems. They're layers of software, legacy tech, and teams all doing things slightly differently. ServiceNow sits across all that, acting as a control tower for making work move seamlessly through the organization. Connecting people, systems, data, and increasingly AI agents so that things don't happen in silos. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people at servicenow.com.

2:07Danny: Hello and welcome to the interview from Times Tech, our weekly conversation with the people shaping the future of technology. I'm Katie Prescott. And I'm Danny Fortson. And this week we're speaking to Nick Bolton. He is the CEO of a tech company that is more than 230 years old. Yeah, it's amazing. Ordnance Survey has spent more than 200 years mapping out every single meter of the UK, no matter how remote, under the ground and over the ground. And so, of course, all of that data plays a huge part in how we use tech today. Just think of how many apps you use that rely on maps. So I'm really excited to talk to him about that and how he's basically seen this company evolve from the paper maps that I have used on walking holidays to supplying the likes of Apple and Google.

3:02It's really interesting because we kind of forget that our very tech enabled world is often underpinned by just a lot of old school data collected by humans, often in this case, for centuries.

3:16Danny: Plus, he's got some great stories to tell about this very old business, including one about spiders. Indeed. So now here is our conversation with Nick Bolton, the CEO of Ordnance Survey.

3:35Danny: Well, Nick, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for joining us. Great. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to it. A lot of people think about ordnance survey maps as maybe what I used during my Duke of Edinburgh award. concertina maps with the kind of bright coloured covers. How do you link into the tech world? What is ordnance survey doing with technology? You're pointing out the very thing that we're most famous for, which are all these maps behind me, right? Those are the ones you had on Duke of Edinburgh. Congratulations, by the way, on completing all that. I got very far away. it? The truth is, is that we've been around for 235 years.

4:11And for the first, what, 200 years of that history, we've produced all of the maps and printed them all in an analogue manner. But over the last 30 years, we've gone through a massive digital transformation. So now the way that we source it, that we refine it, and we distribute it is a completely digital pipeline. And at the very end of that, some of that data is, lo and behold, still printed on a map, because it's still good fun to crowd around and plan your trip from a printed map. But what that means then today, the business is, is the custodian of 600 million data points, 600 million features, all about Great Britain.

4:43So we know where every building is, every road is, we know the footprint of that building, we know what's in that field, we know the angle of the roof of those buildings, we know even the lampposts and where all of they are. So all of that makes up that 600 million features database. We call it the National Geographic Database. And it's now our task to maintain a sport that because it underpins everything from blue light services all the way through to housing transactions and all the way out to the way that education and roads are maintained.

5:11Danny: And you said you're a business because you're also a government organisation. We're wholly owned by the government. So we have one shareholder, a really important shareholder, but otherwise we run a bit like a PLC. In other words, we're there to generate profits. We're there to work out how we supply the needs of customers and do that in a profitable manner. It just happens. Some of those customers are government, some of the customers are consumers, and some of those customers are commercial enterprises. And we do all three. I'm curious, could we go back 235 years? What was the original kind of purpose of the Ordnance Survey?

5:41Why was it set up? And you mentioned, you know, the angle of all the roofs. Why? So back in 1791, the document that formed Ordon survey says this was whilst our navies were abroad, in other words, whilst the British Navy was abroad managing as much of the world as it possibly could, they were worried that Napoleon was going to pop across the Channel and invade the southern half of Britain. And so to manage that, they thought they better know at least what the nature of the landscape was, because where would Napoleon's forces hide? Where would they be holding out that we'd then need to then flush them out and so forth?

6:16And so that meant that 1791, really, that was the first incarnation, the first map it took us 10 years to produce, which is of Kent. And then we gradually went around the South Coast. So that was really, it was really one about national security. That's really why we were created. And what they found is once you've got a good map, lo and behold, it's really useful to all sorts of people. Landowners for deciding, is that my land or is that your land? Where's the divide between us? And also just the good functioning of government or property transactions. And that spans the history all the way up to today, which actually brings us to.

6:49So why would you be interested in the angle of a roof? Well, it's to do with photovoltaic cells. So if you want solar panels on your roof, you want to know the aspect of the roof in order to know, is it worth my financial benefit? investing the capital up front in order to deliver that. I use that as an example because it's the one that sort of surprises people. But even things like building height, which of course is interest to fire services. How many floors are there? So before we go to the shout, have we got the right tender that can make sure we can get up to that height and so forth? So that comes back to those 600 million features.

7:18If all we had to do was just the roads or the buildings, actually it would be a much more straightforward task. We have the most complete digital picture of Britain and that underpins all parts of modern British life.

7:29Danny: So it must be very, very lucrative then when the likes of Google and Apple, who need the maps that we all use on our phones, come knocking, asking for your data. Yeah, and it's not just them. DEFRE use it for helping managing subsidies. The big consumer tech businesses, they all take our data. The delivery companies take our data. The utilities, the way we manage the roads, because we don't just have data about what's above the road. We also have data about what's underneath all of the roads as well. So there's 400 ,000 kilometres of road in the UK. There's 4 million kilometres of pipes. So 10 times more pipes and cables underground than there is road above ground.

8:08And we hold the national register of that. And the application there really is, if I'm digging up the road for the water company, it'd be really useful to know if I'm about to dig through an electrical wire or break down the telecoms for that whole housing estate. So again, completeness of picture, completeness of coverage, that's really what we do. How does that work? If I'm Google Maps or Apple Maps, I don't care, obviously, about the pipes underneath the road. I care about the roads. And so is it like a one-time thing where they're like, hey, Ordnance Survey, you have amazing data. Can we buy that from you?

8:42Can we license it from you? And then they move on about their day. Can you talk about the nature of those relationships? Yeah. And this comes to the very heart about if you're a data business, whether you've gotten a valuable business in the era of AI or you've got an invaluable business in the era of AI. And the truth is, is that because change happens in our environment all the time, if all you had to do was build the data once, it would be a much more straightforward task. It's dealing with the change. My last business, we set up a company called Yotta and we said we were mapping the world one pixel at a time.

9:13That was our big vision. And because we'd worked out a way to put cameras on vehicles, driving down the street, you can build a map. And the truth was, is you can get to about 95 % coverage quite well and quite quickly. And then the next 1 % cost you as much as the previous 95%. And the next 1 % cost you twice. And so it balloons out. And then that then means just after you've finished getting to somewhere like 97, 98%, you've got to start it all again, because it's the change that kills you. And so we know that because we've been at it since 1791. Otherwise, we'd have got to 1801 and we'd be pretty much done, right?

9:48Kent's not going to change, but of course, that change happens all the time. Even things like addressing. So we have a joint venture where when someone builds a new set of houses, they notify the local authority. The local authority issues the new address, 21 the avenue. That address then comes to our joint venture that then bubbles up into our addressing database. And that's really important if you want an Uber Eats to turn up to your front door on the day you move in. So all of that change that's going on all the time is really the task. So 600 million features, but they're updated 30 ,000 times a day.

10:23That 30 ,000 changes a day, you've got to stay on. And actually, one of the things we always talk about is it's a bit like the garden. If you let it go for a few weeks, depending on the size or nature of your garden, you've created much, much more work for yourself. right and that's really our task our task is we talk about we have to leave the forest in a better condition than we inherited it the forest is in a certain condition that that data asset is in a certain condition but what we make sure we do is we we curate that asset to make sure it's of a sufficient quality so that those customer organizations can get on with their business and not have to worry about the quality of the data bring that back to the importance in the ai era yeah high quality data really really really really really really really matters you can't trust the data, it doesn't matter what AI system is going to come out of the bat with the answer, because the answer will be wrong.

11:09Danny: Are you seeing any advantage from advances in space technology? Is that helping what you do at all? Yeah, definitely. So clearly, space technology include everything from GPS, GNSS, global navigation, satellite systems, which is the way that we survey routinely today. So whether it's a vehicle doing the surveying, which has a GNSS receiver on it, whether it's one of our surveyors with one of the GNSS poles, We also provide a network across the country called AusNet. There's a set of stations that are receiving the satellite signals for location, and they have been very accurately surveyed. And then they relay that information both to our probes, but also to a third party's products.

11:52So when Clarkson on Clarkson's farm talks about this tractor knows where it is to centimetre accuracy, that's because they're relying on our network, not just the satellite information. So definitely at that level. And then the other aspect, of course, is Earth observation imagery. And we use Earth observation imagery in a number of ways. We still have a plane that flies the country once every three years. We have all of our surveyors, a third to a half of our surveyors are UAS pilots, because they can just send the UAS up now, the drone, and it just tractors up and down and spots where the change is.

12:27And then we process that as a desktop exercise rather than the person having to go around and take all the measurement points. But the EO data is useful for sort of gross change. It's not quite offering us the degree of accuracy we need for the degree of accuracy that's currently inherent within our data stores. We think that's going to change. Yeah. And so we're monitoring that all the time. It's useful for things like building height stuff already. So definitely satellite and space technology in general does definitely assist the process.

12:55Danny: So how many people do you have monitoring, sending up drones and doing all sorts of things? About 120, 130 around the country. right and and they're all very much geographically located and you'll see them around so how do you spot them wearing high vis uh they were exactly high vis os written across the back carrying a little suitcase with a drone in and the great thing is that that group have got fantastic stories to tell you some which are definitely not repeatable uh you know on a channel like the tech times podcast famous people that have had to go and survey the house yeah or the time when they weren't allowed on or they were attacked by dogs etc etc so they're very much the you know the the the face of the organization and they do a great job and long may they continue self-driving cars what is your interaction there like there's two approaches right there's the waymo we're going to map every single last centimeter of a given city before we launch so we know there's no surprises and then you have wave we're like yeah we're going to kind of learn as we go like we don't need that you know we'll teach our cars to drive so they can drive anywhere So I'm just curious what your interaction has been with this self-driving industry and how you see that developing, how that has kind of changed.

14:08Yeah, and it really has changed over the past 15 years. Again, my last business with computer vision, so you can imagine we were all over the birth of that industry and what was possible and what was not possible. I think what I would say is that the data that we do provide is used in the generality of how those firms are planning their activities. But there's none of our data, as far as I know it, that they're using real time or live. But rather, so a company like Waymo is doing that surveying and they're building up their own effectively point clouds of those environments and so forth. So they're doing their own kind of private ordinance survey for their purposes.

14:45Yeah, and of course Waymo have got that sort of Disneyland somewhere in the desert in Arizona, is it? Where they've got a town that looks, it's just got the artificial fronts. They're also using an awful lot of synthetic data. And so that's been generated in a slightly different way. What I would say about it is, are you familiar with a person called Jan LeCun? Have you interviewed him? Yes, we have actually. So for me, he's got the best take currently on where autonomous vehicle is, which is that we can give a 17-year-old 20 hours worth of training and they can drive a car anywhere in the world, anywhere.

15:18And yet we've got millions and millions of hours of the current approach. And yet still, even in, what is it, Austin, Waymo's not allowed on freeways there. And we only have to start looking at British roads and then seeing the chaos that goes on those, that's always going to be some sort of challenge. So for me, there still has to be a different type of breakthrough there, which I think is what Jan's working on with his world models and so forth. But even in that world, you could see how a foundational data set that you rely on that is authoritative could be used really almost as the foundation there.

15:54And then on top of that, you augment that with whatever else that your sensors do or don't need in that process. So I've got to say, I still think there's some yards yet to run in the whole AV space.

16:11This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by KPMG.

16:16Danny: We often talk about the shiny object problem with AI, where things look impressive in isolation, but are much harder to roll out across a large organization. Issues like governance, workforce readiness, and trust tend to become more important as things scale. KPMG's approach is to look beyond AI as just another technology rollout, and instead, how it could redesign work across the organization and fit into wider processes and decision making. So it's less about individual use cases and more about how organizations can transform and deliver outcomes, powered by AI. To find out more about how it can help your organization make the difference, you can visit kpmg.co.uk slash AI.

17:01Danny: This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by health and life insurer Vitality, your health's best friend. Vitality works differently. Get active, build healthy habits, and you can unlock rewards from some of the UK's top brands while helping to keep your premiums low. It's award-winning health and life insurance that helps you live healthier. Find out more at vitality.co.uk. Today's episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by ServiceNow. ServiceNow describes itself as an AI control tower for business reinvention, connecting people, systems, data, and AI so workflows more smoothly across an organization.

17:41The platform integrates with different clouds, models, and data sources, bringing them together in one place to help your team.

17:48Danny: To learn more about how ServiceNow puts AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

17:58Danny: Danny and I are both messing around with agents at the moment, right? Danny's got a Muse agent. We can't get them over here in the UK. I've got an Instinct agent. I gather you're creating a sort of chatbot agent for mapping well there's a couple of things there's a couple of things first I would say you don't have to buy off the peg ones you can use the LLMs to write yourself your own one yeah so I've done that with a sort of do you remember Evernote do you remember Evernote I do yeah yeah so they went all a bit crazy and I switched all of my notes over the past 30 years to a thing called Bear It's a beautiful note-taking app for iPhone.

18:34And I wanted a way that I could have an LLM chat with that data store, right? Because I can't remember all the stupid notes that I've taken over the last 30 years. And so I wrote myself one, right? And the great thing is that Claude, and although I got the advice from Gemini, I said, if I wanted to build this, Gemini, how do I go and build it? They said, well, you really need to install Claude, which I thought was brilliant. A biz dev perspective. So I would encourage both of you to build your own. And don't just rely on others to go and do that. But in our world, what that means is that really clean that agentic AI world, you could see that there will be increasing interactions with our data stores from machines.

19:11Yeah. Because if you want the authority data, the agent should actually be able to say, well, I'll go to the OS agent and ask for the data we've got on roof aspects. Yeah. Or roof angle. And lo and behold, we would we would furnish that as well. So there's a machine to machine element to that, which in some ways is the more straightforward one because it's really just wrapping an API that's compliant with that agentic world. But the second area really is that if we look across all of our applications, we're very well known for our geospatial capability in the geospatial industry, right? So the 600 million features that nobody's ever heard of, perhaps until this podcast, they all know us for the paper maps.

19:50They don't know us for that NGD, for that National Geospatial Geographic Database. But inside geospatial, they know us inside out. But for me, the thing about location is because everything happens somewhere, everyone's got where questions or why questions about places. And so we have to go through a task of democratizing location insights. We can routinely find a good restaurant to go to in a town we've never been in almost anywhere in the world now. You know, between Google Maps and Apple Maps, they've done a brilliant job of point of interest databases, which we can now nav to from our handsets.

20:24And yet, if we try to optimize for a different set of things, where should I buy a house that's got a school within walking distance? Yeah. That's got a waitrose because I'm that middle class. Yeah. Within five mile drive that is that is in a Sylvan countryside environment. Those are unreasonable questions that anyone goes through when they're considering where to buy a house. And yet you've got to mediate that through someone else's app. That might be right move. Or there isn't a GIS expert just sitting in your house waiting for you to answer those things. And yet, actually, the questions are very widely held.

20:59We've demonstrated that with all the applications that we apply to. So I think our task is to work out a way that you can effectively have access to that, those insights. And for me, the obvious way to do that is via a large language model interface. Yeah. Now, you can't have it hallucinate, right, because you don't want to invent houses that don't exist or answers that don't exist. But actually, the great thing about LLM is it's really good understanding how we speak and translate that to machine speak, a select statement for a SQL database, in order to solicit that. And those two things have to work in common.

21:28So it's not just about having the natural language conversation. I want to visualize it. We shouldn't forget the value of a map. The map in itself is just a fantastic way to consume hugely multi-dimensional data. And they knew that in 1791. Otherwise, they'd have a textual description of Kent. There's a fearful cliff of 100 yards tall at the bottom. There's a pebbly beach. But the point is you stick it on a visual because a picture speaks a thousand words. And so we can consume huge dimensionality of data. You know, when Katie was walking for her Duke of Edinburgh, she could know that if I look at the green bits, those are the footpaths.

22:04If I look at the blue bits, there are most ways I probably should stay away from that. So that sort of task of visualization goes hand in hand with the provision of that data. And I think that probably means that whatever may success up to this point is going to make success in the future as well. I have two questions. What is the Duke of Edinburgh award? Oh, my God. And also, less importantly, when you're talking about creating a new product, you're owned by the government. Like, is there talk about, like, spinning out a for-profit operation? Like, how does it work when you're trying to kind of effectively be entrepreneurial, working in tech, doing all of these things?

22:42or is this, would this be like a kind of a, effectively a public service where anybody could access it for free because this is government owned. But let's talk about Duke of Edinburgh first because I have no idea what you're going to say.

22:54Danny: Very briefly, very briefly. I didn't do it, so Katie's going to have to. It's an award, like a challenge that a lot of British teenagers do and it was started by the Duke of Edinburgh, the late Duke of Edinburgh, the late Queen's husband. It involves doing a bronze award, which is the lowest, and then a silver and a gold. And you go on a walk where you have to camp overnight and you have to navigate yourself around with your little group and then you have to do some voluntary service and a sport and various other things. So you complete different challenges to get there. And what colour did you get, Katie?

23:27Danny: I only got to bronze. You know, when you're a teen here, we don't really have the kind of summer camp things that you guys do. It's quite a moment when age 15, you get sent out into the wilderness of the Welsh countryside or wherever it is by yourself with your big backpack and your mates. And you do a walk that you've designed yourself and you camp somewhere and get your stamp. So that's what – it's known as the D of E or Duke of Edinburgh. Oh, the D of E. Oh, right. And you see the kids around and they're all carrying ordnance survey maps. I've got to say, part of me just wants to run up to them and say, that map, we do that.

24:05Absolutely, we do that.

24:07Danny: I'm pleased they're still using the maps and they're not on their iPhones. It's good to hear. Yeah, they have to have the paper maps because batteries don't work. Oh, interesting. Right, right, right. We had someone who works for the military, and he was talking about the importance of paper maps. And he said, yeah, the great thing about paper maps is if a bullet goes through, then they still work. Yeah? Which is a kind of important point. Yeah. I'm just happy now I know when I'm in the English countryside and I see a bunch of kids looking at them, I'd be like, oh, doing your DV. Yes, exactly.

24:39Is that your English accent, Danny? I know what I'm talking about.

24:42Danny: They thought I was British. Anyway, the question on the finances is fascinating. Let's get to that. Do you see yourselves as a money-making entity? You've got this incredibly valuable store of data, or to Danny's point, is this for the greater public good? Yes, so we run as if we were a public company, so as a private business, right? We're here to make profits. And the way that we then make decisions around products, So really it was what's in the best interest of our customers and which ones are likely to generate the highest profitability within that. So but the way that that's managed is effectively we have a 10 year agreement with government for an all you can eat deal.

25:17And so that means that then that 10 year all you can eat deal, which is a material discount than what my commercial customers would be having to pay for that. But it's really up to the independent board of directors to decide, OK, given we've got these three sources of funding, consumer, business and government, how do we best deploy the profits from those for the future success of the business? And that's not unusual. The geographic market globally is 65 % government. The largest software vendor in this space is an American company called Esri. 65 % of their revenues are government, 20 % of utilities and sort of 15 % of something else, the general commercial business.

25:54And so we generally actually have less from government than that. So that's good because that's lowering the burden on the exchequer.

26:01Danny: But sending the profits back to the treasury? We send the cash back. Yeah, we really do. Some of it we redeploy. I just have one last question before we go. I feel like you're someone who has amazing trivia about like, I don't know, how many lampposts are in England? or do you have like a, do you have like a, you're at a cocktail party and be like, let me tell you this thing that you don't know about the UK, but I do because I run. There are three billion squillion kilometers of cables that. Yeah, no. Well, you've had some of them already, 400 ,000 kilometers. That one was, I'm not going to dine out on that, but like that's a thing I might just roll out.

26:43Actually, let me give you a little story then instead. Instead of a stat, one of the things which I said we're bad at is history, right? Although we've got lots of the history, we were really rubbish at preserving it. So we don't have a museum because we're a technology business. We just lean forward into the future. And so last year's technology ends up in a skip, which you could argue is a tragedy. And it is, and we're trying to do a better job. But one of the things that didn't go in the skip was this wooden box. And it's, I don't know, 18 inches tall. I'll tell you, it's a different measurement, 40 centimetres wide, about 10 inches in the other dimension.

27:14And it's known as the spider box. And it's known as the spider box because we used to keep spiders in it. Today, we are no longer a vertically integrated business, right? We have suppliers from everywhere and we distribute everywhere else. In some ways, we're the mediator, we're the conductor in that orchestra. But in the old days, we used to do it all. We would make the instruments and we would print the maps, yeah? And those instruments were things called theodolites. They're like telescopes on protractors, on things that would measure angles, a theodolite. And the thing is, when you look through that site, you want to have a very thin crosshair to aim at.

27:49That crosshair has to be thin and very strong. And one of the strongest, thinnest things around is spider silk. And so because those instruments, sometimes that spider silk broke, we used to grow our own spiders. We were so vertically integrated, we grew our own spiders. and where do we keep them in the spider box? And today, if you go into the spider box, it's got these sort of looms, little squares, copper squares of tubing. And in between them, you can see these very thin threads of spiders and there haven't been spiders in that box for a hundred years. How cool is that? That is very cool. Although, can I say, maybe get them a nicer place than a box.

28:27You know, like, I don't know, something with some natural light. I'm just saying you're probably not doing that now. But yeah, I feel like...

28:33Danny: I didn't know you were such a softy when it comes to spiders. We've got to sweat the asset. This is a government enterprise. I can't afford waste here. It's like a spider sweatshop. Yeah, that's exactly what we are. It's a spider. Let that be the revelation. Let that be the headline. Spider sweatshop ordinance survey. 235 years for that. Oh, my goodness. That's amazing. That is a great little nugget. See, now I can dine out on that. Well, thank you, Nick. Thank you so much for coming on. This is really totally fascinating. Appreciate your time. No, it's great to meet you, Dave. Good luck with it all.

29:08Danny: Well, that was fascinating to hear from him. And there were so many things that we didn't get to. I know that Ordnance Survey is very tapped into so many of the geospatial companies that exist. Like, do you know what three words that label squares around the world with words? Not to mention all of the companies that he was talking about, their delivery companies and Apple and Google. And it's kind of fascinating to think about that transition from this company that started in the Tower of London to now one that is just so hugely important to the tech industry. Who knew? Like whatever, there's 10 times as many miles of pipes as there are roads.

29:47But you think about like, you know, when you're going around London or any of these, any major city and they're doing road work and then you see like what they're kind of dealing with just below the tarmac. There's just, there's cables and pipes and all this stuff. And you're like, oh, they have all of that mapped. It just feels kind of almost impossible to get your head around. But obviously they've been at it a long time. So totally fascinating.

30:11Danny: And it's so crucial for every aspect of our lives. So I made a program for the BBC in Tanzania about mapping. And if you think of how quickly cities change, particularly in somewhere like Dar es Salaam where people are often building their own housing and trying to keep on top of where people are living how cities are developing is really really complicated but for example say there's an outbreak of a disease in a certain area it's really important to know exactly where that is in order to try and tackle it and certainly there Google was paying local people in order to update their maps but it's exactly to his point like this is not a static business.

30:54Danny: The world changes so quickly all the time. And so just having the capabilities that they've obviously put in place to make sure those maps are up to date is incredibly, incredibly valuable. Yeah, totally. No, it's really, it's really cool. It's kind of a peek at a company that is super important that you would never, never otherwise think of, except if you're doing your DOE. except if you're doing a doy yes exactly dov by the way it's not do of do of oh god anyway my bad the education of danny yeah thank you i appreciate it continues thank you thank you thank you all for listening to this episode of the interview from time stack and please do follow us anywhere and everywhere on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode.

31:51Danny: And we'll see you all again next Friday with the latest tech news. Yes, indeed. Who knows where that will take us. Exactly. See you next week. Bye-bye.

32:01Danny: This episode of the Times Tech Podcast was sponsored by KPMG. One of the themes we keep coming back to is the gap between AI ambition and real-world application. And that's where KPMG is focusing its work, helping organizations move beyond pilots and think about how AI can change the way the business operates and how it fits into wider processes and decision making. You can find all their insights and how they can help your organization make the difference through successful AI workforce adoption. Visit kpmg.co.uk slash AI.

32:41Danny: Your heart can tell you a lot about your health. Apple Watch Series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most advanced heart rate sensing in an Apple Watch. So your vitals app, now with heart rate variability, could tell you when something is off. And your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push. Hear the story in every heartbeat with Apple Watch Series 12. For general wellness purposes only, Not intended for clinical use or to detect, diagnose, monitor, or treat medical conditions. Requires iPhone 11 or later. When you're running a growing business, the right systems can unlock your full sales potential and make fulfilling every order effortless.

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