Who holds the power in the age of AI?

0:02Okay, before we get into this week's episode, I've got a quiz for you. I love a quiz. You ready? Did you know that I was a spelling bee champion when I was a kid? Sell the phone? Really? Yeah. So that means people, what, they fire words at you? Yep. Okay. And I won not only our school, but our district, went all the way to the county finals. So anyway. Okay. This is really one for you because it's the Collins Dictionary Word of the Year. They've just announced it. What do you think it is? Okay. Any ideas? This is a tech podcast. Well done. Thank you. They haven't turned AI into a word. They haven't.

0:44That's a very good idea. No, they haven't. I'll tell you at the end. Let's keep everyone in suspense. I'm going to ruminate. I'm going to ruminate on it. That's a good one. I have to say, there was another word, which isn't the winner, but it's an absolute corker. Oh, yeah? What's that? Clanker. What's a clanker? It is. It's a derogatory term for computers, robots, or sources of artificial intelligence. That's such a clanker. Oh, I love that. That's like a sick burn nerd version. It's a great word, isn't it? If you see a rubbish at tech. Bit of a clanker. Apparently popularized by Star Wars The Clone Wars, it went viral on social media and is often used to express people's frustrations with and distrust of AI chatbots and platforms.

1:28We're coming in hot. We're covering the most important issues in tech right now. Hello and welcome to the Times Tech Podcast. I'm Danny Fortson out in Silicon Valley where in case you didn't get the memo, the race for computing power is on. Oh, it certainly is. I'm Katie Prescott here in London and every week seems to bring another billion dollar AI deal, which is, you know, where we come in. I'm maybe not doing the deals or trading in billions, but we're trying to make sense of how tech is reshaping business, culture and everyday life. That's right. We're your AI tour guides. And that's why we're here.

2:05One big story, one big guest. And this week, we're looking at OpenAI, the company behind Chad GPT. Don't know if you've heard of it. They signed yet another big deal. This one worth nearly$40 billion,$38 billion, with another big cloud provider, AWS, also known as Amazon Web Services. Not clankers, either of them. No, no. It's fair to say. So we're going to look at what this all means for open AI and for the global power grid. Plus what Sam Altman and Satya Nadella from Microsoft revealed in a new joint interview that got a bit tense here and there. The two people, part of the biggest bromance in tech, talk about the next phase of AI.

2:52But of course, before we do all that, the main event, Katie, is your interview with the man at the very center of all of the action. That's, of course, Jensen Wang, the CEO of NVIDIA, the company making the chips that power this whole boom. And as of recording, he is now the eighth richest man on the planet. Net worth,$180 billion. No big deal. Thanks to the company's stock price, which has gone up so much that last week the company became the first company on planet Earth worth$5 trillion. So from trillion dollar valuations to trillion watt ambitions, which brings us to the big question this week.

3:30Are we running out of power? The chips, the electrons, the data centers to power AI? Well, let's get into it. And Danny, I should set the scene. I got a call earlier this week from the team in the Department for Science, Innovation and Tech saying, would I like to interview Jensen Huang and Liz Kendall? You're like, nah, I'm busy. Secretary of State for Tech. Yeah, exactly. Oh, I don't know about that. So Priyanka, the producer of this podcast and I went to 10 Downing Street. The first time for both of us, we had to work out how to get in. I was going to say, did you actually go in? because all I ever see of 10 Downing Street is people standing in front of the door.

4:12Oh no, when I say we went in, we just went through the barriers to stand outside the door. I... But it took us a while to work out how to get around the barriers through the scanner to stand outside the door. But anyway, it was very exciting. As usual with these things, we didn't have a huge amount of time for the interview. But Jensen Huang was in town picking up the Queen Elizabeth Prize. He was one of several winners of this prize, which is a very prestigious award for engineering, which he is receiving from the king. And there were all sorts of other people there who are key figures in AI.

4:51Yan Le Koon, the chief scientist of Meta, Geoffrey Hinton, Joshua Bengio, Fei-Fei Li, often talked about as the godfathers, godmothers of AI, along with the Secretary of State for Science and Tech in the UK, Liz Kendall. so you can imagine Priyanka and I were standing outside 10 Downing Street watching that famous door open and close we went and got a selfie outside it so I should say did all of the prize winners when they came out saw Jan LeCun holding up his mobile phone taking a selfie as well outside the famous door that's very cool it was very cool so we got we got a brief amount of time really you may have seen chip stocks were down quite dramatically on Wednesday so that was one of the things that I wanted to talk to him about and we asked is this investment boom sustainable and of course about the bubble I have a very important question before we get to the interview go on was he wearing his black leather jacket no I don't think he was actually oh I don't think he was it's a really good question and when I've seen him speak before so when I was in Paris at GTC yeah he's there in his jacket i mean this was a big state event and he's receiving the prize from the king later i've just never seen him in anything other than his black leather jacket and kind of no matter where he is no they're all in suits yan lecun had a lovely blue bow tie on and of course was wearing meta glasses of course he was of course he was sadly i was not wearing mine.

6:24Oh, you guys could have given like a little like nod across the room. Like, what's up? Hello, dork. You know, here's my is my clankers on my face. Not at all. I'm big fan. Actually. Yeah, it's very striking. Well, I can't wait to hear what he had to say. It's awesome that you managed to navigate a time with him, even though it was short. Basically, he's the most important person on the planet, him and Sam Altman, I think, in terms of this whole crazy boom in which we find ourselves. So we managed to get a little bit of time with Jensen Huang, along with Liz Kendall. Jensen Huang, congratulations on the award.

7:05Thank you. Just looking behind you, standing outside number 10, what an extraordinary gathering. It's really terrific to be here with my friends and my colleagues. I happen to be able to work with some of the brightest minds in the world. And I'm so proud of them. My colleagues worked together to invent this new industry. If you take a step back and reflect on what has happened, we have reinvented the single most important instrument of humanity, computers, for the first time in probably about 60 years, maybe 100 years. And now we're seeing a complete platform shift and build out to this new way of doing computing called artificial intelligence.

7:43The capabilities have developed so quickly. And in fact, so amazingly in the last year that we're now using it effectively in drug discovery, in health care, in, of course, my industry, engineering, transportation and logistics. And we're going to see this technology impact every single industry in a very positive way. One of the surprising, it wasn't surprising to me, but it was surprising to a lot of people that AI doesn't change your job. It changes the work of your job. And so your responsibilities and the responsibility of your job fundamentally is still necessary, but it's been enhanced dramatically by the use of artificial intelligence.

8:25Companies are becoming more productive, and as a result, they're growing. When they grow, they hire more people. It's also the case that artificial intelligence requires infrastructure. And the building of infrastructure has created mounds of jobs, really important high trade skills, very high-paying jobs that are necessary to build these factories, data centers. And all of this is creating lots and lots of jobs. I'm quite excited that the UK is going to push into the artificial intelligence sector. This is a new industry that you must take advantage of. But you have said before, this is, I think, your third visit to the UK this year, certainly the third that I can remember, that the UK is the world's biggest AI ecosystem without its own infrastructure.

9:07That's right. What are your reflections on that and kind of the direction of travel? That was a challenge that we took upon ourselves. And in just several months, we have created two very important companies here in the UK that are scaling up very nicely. One of them is Nscale. A year ago, Nscale didn't even exist. Today, Nscale is about to become a multi-billion dollar infrastructure. We're trying to learn more about it very quickly, I can tell you. Nscale is really doing terrifically. I'm really proud of Josh. Another company that's now building in the UK is Nebius. And so I think that we need to motivate and activate the infrastructure parts of the AI stack, because without it, there's no way to build the application layer and the companies on top of it.

9:53That's absolutely right. We need to build those data centers to get that infrastructure. But then we need to create the ecosystem around that, the companies who will adopt and come up with new ideas. And the truth is this, we do not lack for the brilliant minds, the great scientists, the great ideas, but we have got to do more to get from start-up to scale-up. That's one of the reasons why we're putting through right now legislation, the pension schemes bill, which I introduced when I was Secretary of State at Work and Pensions, which is to get more pension fund investment into UK companies. there's more we need to do there we need to build the data centers we need to get the capital to get startups to scale up we need to make regulation easier but critically for me you know i'm a i'm a labor secretary of state i am a local mp i want kids in my constituency to think there's a great job there's a great opportunity for me that's why today we announced in our reform of the curriculum that we are changing the computer science GCSE now to include AI.

11:02We are going to prepare our kids for the future. That's better for them and it's better for the economy because they're the ones who are going to come up with the ideas and the great businesses that are going to build a better future for Britain. I'm delighted to hear that from my two daughters who are just at the age where that would impact them. I've got two more questions because I appreciate you have got to go. But there is a lot of talk at the moment about an AI bubble and we saw chip stops coming off this morning. Obviously, the U.S. markets aren't yet open. Do you think this is the sign of the correction that people have been talking about?

11:33I actually believe we're in the beginning of the AI build-out. It just happens to be a very large number. I notice you don't use the word bubble. We're all in a bubble. The question is, where are you in that phase? And so I believe we're in the beginning of the build-out. It just happens to be very large numbers. But the way to think about AI is the ecosystem and the economy that it's going to impact is so large that these numbers in percentage pale by comparison. And so we're in the beginning of the build-out. We have decades of old computing infrastructure that's being modernized. And so we're trying to modernize it as quickly as we can so that we can bring AI to a lot more people.

12:16That's number one. Number two, AI has become profitable. It's effective and profitable, which is the reason why everybody's accelerating their build-out of artificial intelligence. When something is profitable, people want to make more of it. And this is applying to just every single technology company and every single computer company so that we can build into the AI era. This is just in the beginning. It is certainly a very exciting time. My last question is about power. We're standing outside the door of number 10. Your company was recently valued at$5 trillion. dollars, first company in the world, to be worth that much.

12:52The UK's GDP last year was$3.6 trillion. How do you reflect on that? They're measuring two different things. One is turnover and the other one is valuation. And obviously, our valuation as a company reflects the work that we do, but the impact on the number of industries. Ultimately, AI is the first technology in history that has the opportunity to directly benefit the total$100 trillion of the world's economy. Everything from healthcare to financial services to all of technology, transportation and logistics, almost every single industry manufacturing will be benefited, will be impacted. And so we're in the beginning of that and just reflects the opportunity ahead.

13:37How do you feel about that power? I feel a great, great honor to be part of this important technology. This is probably the most impactful technology of all time. And the ability to manufacture intelligence is quite an extraordinary thing. The benefit to society is quite extraordinary. And it's a great privilege to be working in the company at the center of that. And, you know, it just causes us to work harder than ever. so yeah he um in terms of the bubble he was very much like this is just the the beginning of the investment yeah and he kind of has to say that right because where his company is and where it has got to i mean i thought i like that idea of the way he framed it of manufacturing intelligence and putting it in the frame of like we've got all these old computing infrastructure that now we have this new paradigm we need to kind of move it all you know it's going from like landlines to mobiles like we need to just switch all of this out i mean it is crazy this was just a company that just a few years ago like nobody really cared about they were making chips for video games and now they're worth five trillion dollars he's getting every award on the planet he's now one of the richest people on the planet and it just keeps going up and up and up and up I mean, it just, he must have whiplash.

15:02And every time I see him, he's with a very senior politician. You know, when I was out in Paris, he was on stage with President Macron. He was on stage with Prime Minister Keir Starmer back at London Tech Week. He was over for the state visit, of course, with Donald Trump. Liz Kendall this morning with the king later, which is why I asked that question about power. Because it really gets to this idea of like, it feels kind of crazy right now. And the question is, is like, is this sustainable? Are we in a bubble? is this about to burst? When will the bubble burst? What will that mean? All of that stuff?

15:34Or is it really like he said, he's like, we're just at the beginning of a very long new infrastructure build out like whatever, railroads or telecoms, whatever it may be. And we are genuinely just getting started. And this is all going to be a good investment. But we also managed to grab Jan LeCun, Meta's chief AI scientist, who made it very clear, actually, that he was a professor, first and foremost. Well, he's super interesting also, because he's the one who's been like, look this is basically just math it's just really clever math and like everybody needs to take a big swig of settle down juice when it comes to like the existential worries from folks like Jeffrey Hinton so the fact that both of those two guys were in the room I would have loved to sat down and just like between them be like let's talk this out yeah because they're both know what they're talking about but they're coming at it from diametrically opposite positions this is a big discussion at the moment again about when we might hit AGI and the light of OpenAI's new relationship with Microsoft.

16:34And you know that it changes when OpenAI officially hits AGI and they've got an independent board apparently to look at when that happens. I wonder what your view is at the moment of when that moment might be reached. You've got strong views on this. I have very strong views on this. So first of all, it's not going to be a moment. It's not going to be an event. So you don't think the board will be able to just, I mean, it's a quite interesting concept that they've got this board to sort of evaluate it. But that's based on a completely wrong assumption, which really comes from science fiction. Like there's going to be an event and, you know, one day before that event, we don't have human level AI and the next day we have superhuman AI, right?

17:16So first of all, I don't like the phrase AGI because, you know, the G stands for general, right? Artificial General Intelligence, by which people really mean human-level intelligence, human-level AI. And human intelligence is not general at all. It's very specialized. And so calling it AGI is complete nonsense, first of all. There's no question that at some time in the future, we're going to have machines that are as smart as humans in all domains where humans have intellectual abilities. Yes. And more. It's not going to happen next year. It's not going to happen in two years. it's certainly going to take more than five years, probably more than 10.

17:52Okay. Because there is a lot of breakthroughs that need to happen before we can get to that point. Now, there's generation after generations of AI scientists and engineers who in the past have thought that the latest technique they invented was going to be the ticket to human-level AI. And that proved to be wrong every single time. And it's still wrong today, right? So LLMs are very useful. They should be worked on. There should be investment in them. It's great. There's going to be a lot of products that are going to help people with that. But they are not a path to human-level AI. And what I think is prevalent in Silicon Valley at the moment is that it is a path to human-level AI.

18:32I just don't believe this at all. And, you know, I think we need a few breakthroughs before that happens. and the evidence for this that you can immediately recognize is that we have AI systems that can pass the bar exam or solve some math problems or code, they're really useful for that as long as they're under the leadership of a human but where is our domestic robot where is our level 5 autonomous car we don't have any system that understands the physical world LLMs are not good for that we know they're not good for that And so that's the next revolution. The next revolution in AI, which may happen within the next three to five years, is AI systems that can understand the physical world, have persistent memory, can plan, can reason in ways that go beyond the current abilities of AI systems.

19:25That's what I'm working on. MetaFamously has been offering enormous salaries to new scientists to bring them into your AI team. How's that going? Well, mostly to engineers, actually, also scientists. But the focus here was to hire the best in the industry to bring the technology to the level of the competitors, basically. And so this is within the current paradigm. Just get to the best level within the paradigm of large language models and adjacent technologies. What I'm talking about, what I'm working on, is really going to be on that. And again, there are people who have different opinions. about the way to go.

20:06There's a lot of people in Silicon Valley who believe you just need to scale up LLMs, train them on more data, maybe synthetic data, and then fine-tune them for sort of various things. And, you know, human-level AI will emerge from this. I just don't believe this at all. So I think we need a number of breakthroughs. In that respect, actually, I have a... I mean, other people in the industry have similar opinions. People who are more kind of on the side of the research, more than the industry. people who are in the areas of robotics or computer vision know that AI systems, to be really intelligent, need to build what we call world models, basically mental models of the world, if you want.

20:45Humans have this, most animals have that. And that's a big challenge, I think, for the next few years. It's still a scientific research problem. It's not just scaling up technology and investing billions. And are you getting the engineers that you want? Are the big salaries tempting them over? Is that working? Ask me again in six months. Okay, I will. So yeah, another different philosophy on reaching. Yeah, and he's totally right, by the way, around this idea that, and I think I've mentioned it before, you know, Eric Schmidt, the former Google CEO, calls it the San Francisco consensus. This idea that in two years, three years, four years, five years, soon we're going to have AGI.

21:28and it is simply just like just scaling up these current systems to the point where these these systems are just smarter than any human at everything and it's really interesting that san francisco consensus is the thing that's driving all of this insane investment which you know jensen wang just says it's not insane at all we're just building the infrastructure for this new paradigm but it is like that idea that notion of agi is the fuel for this machine that has revved up so it's really interesting that you have folks like Jan at Meta who's spending hundreds of millions of dollars per engineer to hire in these people to build like this new generation of stuff.

22:12It's really interesting. It's amazing that you got them both in the same spot. It was very lucky shooting AI fish in a Downing Street barrel. You've heard him speak a lot as well. Very open about his views extraordinarily so for someone who works in a big tech company who are normally so careful about what they say yeah you know he's very much as i said he's he described himself to us as a professor you know he sees himself as an academic first and foremost what he said sounds right to me this idea that like we're not just going to wake up one day and have agi where it's not like there's like this whatever this third party is between open ai and microsoft that's going to decide when it is and when it isn't.

22:53I think it's good to have a third party to do it, but the notion that like, ah, we've done it, is a little ridiculous. That's going to be a lot more kind of gradual and a lot more nuanced than that idea, that science fiction idea that he called it.

23:13It was interesting to hear Jan LeCun talk about dates and times, because it is 2032 that Microsoft's exclusive access to OpenAI's models ends, unless this AGI thing, you know, they reach it before. Unless it happens before. Unless it happens, which is a mere seven years away. Does this feel like a good time to move on to talk about that Sam Altman and Satya Nadella interview? Because this has been the moment where their relationship feels like a reconciliation in some ways, doesn't it? Last week, Sam and Satya went on the BG2 pod. And BG2 is for Brad Gerstner and Bill Gurley. They are two very well respected.

23:56I get it. You get that? Yeah. It's BG times two. BG and BG. And they're both investors. Bill Gurley is like a Silicon Valley legend. He's one of the partners at Benchmark. He was the one who led the charge into Uber and also ended up leading the coup against Travis Kalanick. and he ended up being in the series about that. And then Brad Gerstner, he runs this company called Altimeter, which invests both in private tech companies, so OpenAI and Stripe and all these other companies, as well as public companies. And so he manages a bunch of money and knows all of these people. And so basically they really know of what they speak.

24:35They know Sam and Satya and all these people personally, and so they brought them onto the pod days after they had this kind of agreement that was announced that kind of set the path forward for this relationship between open ai and microsoft which has been like like we said probably the most important relationship in this whole ai boom because microsoft took a big bet on open ai early when it was really kind of still a crazy idea they ended up putting 13 billion dollars in total and really helped them get off the ground. OpenAI used Azure, their kind of cloud service, to kind of run these models and train them and all that stuff.

25:16So it's really been this kind of symbiotic relationship that has gotten more tricky as OpenAI has become bigger. Has become bigger and started building relationships with other players. And doing deals. And doing deals with other companies like Oracle and as was announced this past week with AWS and spreading their risk, spreading their relationships around the industry and so kind of this bromance got a little tricky around okay is open ai is this weird structure we need to kind of restructure this company what does that mean for microsoft's holding in the company etc anyway they've announced this deal under the new deal microsoft owns i believe 27 percent of open ai so 13 billion is now worth 120 billion not a bad return and they also have, as you say, exclusive access to all of OpenAI's tech for the next five years or until someone decides this kind of third party kind of jury or panel decides that AGI has been reached.

26:22They've managed to create some sort of human intelligence. That is the kind of context for this really interesting conversation that they had last week. Satya Nadella has described this deal as like having a frontier model for free because Because Microsoft gets to embed OpenAI's tech directly into its products. Things like Copilot, and then it sells them on to customers. And the theme they kept coming back to, of course, it's kind of the theme of the day, the theme of the month, the theme of the year, is compute. They're both running up against physical limits, not enough power, not enough data center space.

26:55And Nadella even said, you know, my problem isn't chips anymore. It's finding what he called warm shelves to plug them into. wow that's such a great phrase more sheds more sheds please yeah need more sheds and so we used to think this was all about silicon but actually it's just sockets and shelves and sam altman reckons open ai is going to spend over a trillion dollars on compute in the next few years so five something like 500 billion with nvidia 300 billion with amd and article 250 billion with microsoft ops itself very big numbers wow he says it's just a necessary risk i mean one of the phrases that stuck out for me was if we don't have the compute we can't make the models and so he thinks that there'll be too much capacity in five or six years but this shortage is just holding everybody back at the moment yeah and they also hinted at you know what's next which i find super fascinating which is you know ai moving from chatbots to autonomous agents which is like this holy grail the whole industry is chasing these things that can go off and you know just do things on your behalf sometimes over many days and of course they're also keep talking about this ai device the mystery device that is being designed by sir johnny ive and then surprising no one they also said regulations getting too messy especially if every state has its own ai laws and we just need one one rule to rule them all not to mention what happens globally i mean yeah anyway so you've got Trillions of dollars being put into compute, this bizarre patchwork of regulation, and the world's most valuable companies racing to own the future of intelligence.

28:36So the clip of this interview that really stood out for me was a question that you keep asking repeatedly about OpenAI's cash flow and ability to fund all of the big investment promises that they've made. And that's the question that Brad Gerstner asked. So I think the single biggest question I've heard all week and hanging over the market is, you know, how can the company with 13 billion in revenues make 1.4 trillion of spend commitments? You know, and you've heard the criticism, Sam. We're doing well more revenue than that. Second of all, Brad, if you want to sell your shares, I'll find you a buyer.

29:19Just enough. Like, you know, people are, I think there's a lot of people who would love to buy OpenAI shares. I don't think you would want to sell that. Including myself. Including myself. People who talk with a lot of like breathless concern about our compute stuff or whatever that would be thrilled to buy shares. So I think we could sell, you know, your shares or anybody else's to some of the people who are making the most noise on Twitter, whatever, about this very quickly. We do plan for revenue to grow steeply. Revenue is growing steeply. We are taking a forward bet that it's going to continue to grow.

29:49and that not only will Chachapiti keep growing, but we will be able to become one of the important AI clouds that our consumer device business will be a significant and important thing that AI that can automate science will create huge value. So, you know, there are not many times that I want to be a public company, but one of the rare times it's appealing is when those people are writing these ridiculous open AI is about to go out of business and, you know, whatever. I would love to tell them they could just short the stock and i would love to see them get burned on that so the thing i think is so fascinating about this is like for the mathematicians at home 13 billion compared to 1.4 trillion is less than one percent so they are bringing in less than one percent of what they say they're going to spend over the next you know four or five years well first of all they're doing way more revenue than that exactly so that might be at 1.2 percent my point is i think it's a totally valid question that people are asking and i think it's really interesting that that reaction of like enough and it reminds me and i'm dating myself here of the dot-com boom because i remember i distinctly remember being here as a 20 something thinking i was going to get rich working at a dot-com company and then all these people all these super smart very savvy investment professionals being like, don't look over there.

31:18Don't look at the obvious thing that everybody's like, none of these companies are making money. Oh, this feels all a little bit illogical and irrational. And maybe we've gotten over our skis a little bit. It was this kind of a - You don't understand. Yeah. And it was a collective delusion. And if you questioned it, you were kind of like, oh, you just don't know. You just don't get it. You don't see the future. And I'm not saying that's what's going to happen here. But like that vibe is so real now again. And there's a lot of reasons why AI is different. And it could just go on the path that Jensen Wang and Sam Altman and all these folks say.

31:56We're early in the build out. That investment needs to be made. These companies are generating money. They're doing something valid. Yeah. But the notion that you're like, hey, you make less than 1 % of what you say you're going to spend. And those spending commitments are the thing that are sending these companies to trillions more in market value. Those seven magnificent seven companies are now a third of the U.S. stock market. One third. So that's people's pension funds. That's like the whole stock market boom is those seven companies. And at the center of it all is this company that is opening eye, which has created something that is really extraordinary.

32:38but is losing tons of money will continue to lose tons of money. And there's a huge amount of nervousness in the market. I mean, when chip stocks were down, when I woke up this morning in Asian trading, you know, the headlines were like, is this the end? Which is why I asked Jensen Huang about that. You know, is this the moment? Because we've now had the IMF, the Bank of England, had the World Economic Forum today talking about it. everybody is absolutely freaked out about if this bubble is going to burst and when it's going to burst and this idea that nvidia in particular is too big to fail and that the repercussions of something going bang would be massive again when you step back and look at it i mean all the whole edifice is built on some very large ious from a couple startups basically it's like it's what it is it's anthropic it's open ai and they're saying we're going to spend hundreds of billions of dollars with you companies they put out an announcement the share prices of those public companies go through the roof and then everybody's like well how's that how are you going to pay for that you know like that's when you're kind of like you have that response of like enough stop asking the most obvious question um but it is it's one of the few times i've heard him riled yeah for sure actually he's not only a very calm pragmatic interviewee yes and but even anthropic they're saying they're going to bring in 70 billion dollars by 2028 i.e in like two and a half years from now this company that didn't exist four years ago so it's not just chat gpt it's the whole industry saying like we are just and they know more than we do like they see what's coming in and how people are using their products so maybe they're all right but i just um call me a cynical journalist but i think you know i just think it's such a fascinating time as like almost like an anthropologically it's a really fascinating time and there are parallels with the dot-com boom but obviously some real differences as well you know which makes it yeah i mean there's five billion smartphones on the planet like we all have supercomputers with us now it's not like before where it was like you know dial-up modems and if you had a page with too many graphics it would take two minutes to download you know or to kind of open you know so there's a lot of reasons from the company's results last week they're making a lot of money making tons of money seven it's not like you know it's just sort of just hoping a prayer well good on you for getting your selfies at Downing Street I've that's one thing I never got while I was living in the UK which is a bummer and um yeah and getting those like you know nabbing some time with you know a few of the people right in the middle of it all.

35:25But in the spirit of the pod, we did ask the big question. I don't feel bad about not having a clear answer because I think you have, like the dot-com boom, you have some very, very smart people taking the opposite bets. So nobody really knows, but I think it's worth kind of like dredging it up and digging around on it because I think it's just, it's kind of the question as we get further into this boom. Do you know what I do know though? I do know what the word of the year in Colin's Dictionary is. Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Braggawatts. Is it Braggawatts? No, it's not. It's not Braggawatts.

35:59I'm really, it's vibe coding. Wait, hold on. That's not a word. You're right. It's two. It is actually two words. Yeah. And if you were doing your spelling bee, you'd need a space in between vibe and coding. Oh my goodness. So what is the actual, what is the actual definition? Vibe coding. Noun, the use of artificial intelligence prompted by natural language to assist with the writing of computer code. Use it in a sentence. Danny live-coded an amazing video game called Meatball Mania, which is going to make him rich when he loses his job to AI that does his job for him.