Will.i.am: musicians will survive AI

0:00Danny Fortson: This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by IBM. Wimbledon is one of those rare events that feels steeped in tradition, but behind the scenes, it's also a huge data operation. Millions of fans follow the tournament across time zones, devices and platforms, and increasingly they want highlights, stats and personalized updates in real time. IBM has worked with Wimbledon for more than 30 years, using data and AI to help create digital experiences for fans, including match chat, which can answer questions during play and likelihood to win, which uses live match data to offer near real-time predictions.

0:36Danny Fortson: It's a useful example of AI being applied in a way people can actually see and understand. To learn more about how IBM helps create smarter business, visit ibm.com slash Wimbledon. This episode of the Times Tech podcast is sponsored by KPMG. Katie, we've been tracking the AI surge for a while, but some of the latest data is pretty striking. It is. KPMG's latest quarterly AI pulse suggests that 7 in 10 UK business leaders still see AI as a top investment priority, even if the economy slows down in the next year. But turning that investment into tangible value is another question. And so a lot of organisations are still figuring out how to move from endless AI pilots to something that works across the business.

1:22Danny Fortson: KPMG's focus is on that gap, helping organizations scale from the pilot phase to AI-powered transformation they can trust. To find out more about how KPMG can help your organization make the difference, you can visit kpmg.co.uk forward slash AI. Hip-hop is some version of artificial intelligence because artificial intelligence sampled and gobbled up everything. It's really very rare to meet someone who sits in the center of the Venn diagram in the way you do. So it's okay for humans to borrow, but people that make machines that borrow, that are creative too, like where's the protection? These creatives that you're talking about, the true creatives, will be okay.

2:06The ones that I'm concerned about are the assistants, the sales clerks, the lawyers, the accountants. Hello and welcome to the Times Tech Podcast, where we unpack how technology is reshaping business, culture and everyday life. I'm Katie Prescott, covering all things tech here in the city of London. And this week, I have a Silicon Valley tech titan in the studio with me. Danny Fortson. Hello.

2:38Danny Fortson: Hello. In real life. We're here. You exist. Yeah, I do. I do. Welcome to London. A real carbon-based life form. Well, welcome to London. It's great to have you here. What are you doing? Thank you. I'm here for a bunch of stuff, partially to just check in with HQ. Let them know that I'm actually just not an email address. I'm actually a real person. Yeah. Catching up with friends, running around, although I'm not running anywhere. Actually, I broke my toe. How did you do that? Packing my bag. That's not a very cool story. No, yeah. Actually, I was coming up. I was like, could I have like a Jean-Claude Van Damme type story where I was like just walking down the street and all of a sudden had to dropkick somebody.

3:19Danny Fortson: But actually, I was just I stubbed my toe in a very dramatic fashion and broke it. Ouch. So I'm actually hobbling around the city of London. But I'm here. And next time we can think of a better story involving a robot. Yeah, exactly. I'll do my best. I'll do my best. Well, it's great to have you here. It's great to be here. And we should remind people, actually, that we are on YouTube. We are now on YouTube. The YouTube.com. Go to the Times business page to actually see this, see us doing this instead of just listening. As well as you. Yeah. The special celebrity guest. We've also got another celebrity on the program today who many of you may have heard of and know from the Black Eyed Peas, Will.i.am.

4:05Danny Fortson: Very cool. Very, very cool. because over the last decade or so, he has become far more than just an artist. And he's a big figure in the world of tech, an investor in some companies you may have heard of, you know, Anthropic, OpenAI, Hugging Face, Lovable. I was pretty surprised actually by the roll call of investments that he's made at quite early stages. And he's also really passionate about using AI to help the next generation and the global south and also deprived parts of America too. And he has a lot of very, very interesting things to say about AI and creativity. I was surprised actually he's not against the use of AI in music, unlike a lot of creatives that we hear from.

4:48It's almost as if he wants AI to have just a better spin put on it.

4:53Danny Fortson: Well, that is a theme this week. So a couple of things have happened. But ultimately, there's like one big kind of macro story that leads into the chat with Will.i.am, which is lots of people from the tech world, some not. There is a kind of a growing sense from people inside the industry, outside the industry, that this whole idea of very powerful AI is not just marketing spin, that it's going to hit us between the eyes much faster than we think, and that we need to be thinking about it. We need to be acting. We need to be doing stuff. So there's a whole bunch of stories around that theme that have kind of popped up this week.

5:35Yeah, absolutely. We're going to be talking about all of that. The fact that AI does need better PR, but it also needs some stronger rules around it too.

5:46Danny Fortson: Exactly. I mean, on the subject of PR, this extraordinary advert that you shared on our WhatsApp group earlier this week by Anthropic. Yeah, so Anthropic released this like 90 second video. And it's entitled, There's Hope in the Hard Questions. You know, it almost sounds like the beginning of Star Wars or something. But it's kind of a call to arms, warning about the potential harms of AI and how they can be stopped. And the ad starts with a video of a burning house. Very uplifting, right? Just what you think of when you think of AI. And then it kind of scrolls through this whole kind of roll of dystopian images.

6:25Danny Fortson: A military graveyard. A homeless man sleeping on the street. crowd of people being kind of surveilled by facial recognition, all of this stuff. And you're kind of like, what is this? Right. And voicing over it is questions like, can AI be trusted? Who's going to hit the brakes if we need, et cetera, et cetera. But then it shifts in tone, questioning whether it could be a different outcome if everyone had a role in shaping how AI is handled. And by the end, it moves to a more hopeful message. And the voiceover asks questions like, could AI help people feel less misunderstood it's a classic narrative move from the really rubbish stuff into but look this is what we can offer you exactly so shall we watch just a just a little bit of it just to give you a flavor can ai be trusted who's gonna hit the brakes if we need to how do we really ensure that what we're aiming to achieve really does benefit the majority of people I don't think those dystopian images did very much to dispel any doubts or fears that people have about AI.

7:33I mean, all of the things they showed, all of those images are very, very genuine, very real, very fact-based fears. And I think play into our next story, which was yet another call for regulation of AI from the very credible quarters of Google DeepMind. and no less than Demis Tassabis himself.

7:57Danny Fortson: Friend of the pod. Friend of the pod. We should say. But so he posted, exactly. He posted an essay on X calling for the US to establish a new kind of AI watchdog with the power to screen the world's most advanced models and hit the brakes if the systems get too powerful. And what he's calling for is effectively think of like, I don't know, the FAA for aviation or the FDA for drugs or whatever. some kind of standards body that comes together quite quickly. He's talking months, not years, to basically step in as almost like a gatekeeper as these models develop. Because he's like, look, AI is going to be 10 times more impactful than the industrial revolution and at 10 times the speed, which if that is true, I mean, it's almost like climate change.

8:47Danny Fortson: You're like, what do I do with this giant thing? And the essay is almost like a rerun of the Anthropic advert, because he talks about all of the potential dangers, which we see in the Anthropic ad, use in the military, use in cyber warfare, but also the advantages. He said, yes, it's going to have an incredible impact on healthcare. It's going to, as you say, be like the industrial revolution in terms of changing our society. And it's going to happen really quickly by the end of 2030. I think what really struck me about the advert and about that essay is this is not the first time we've heard this.

9:22There have been so many talking shops around AGI and how we handle it right back to the Bletchley Park Summit in 2023, hosted by the British government, which kicked off all of those AI safety summits. And we've interviewed so many of these people who've been involved in these things. So we've got that going on, the related AI safety institute that the UK has to look at models, and then the various safety institutes around the world. We've got the AI for Good summit that Will.i.am was at, that the UN hosted in Geneva. I mean, there are just innumerable examples of these talking shops. And then the Trump administration saying, actually, we want to start looking inside these models before they go out publicly.

10:03no one has actually managed to create something like Demis DeSavis is talking about. No, no. There are all of these political heads together, all of these business leaders, but there's still that leap needs to be made. And meanwhile, it's developing at pace. And actually, I thought the Trump administration's move to want to look inside models just shows how on the back foot we are with all of these things. Something really powerful comes out like Anthropics, Fable, and suddenly they're, Oh, we want to have a look at this. I did think Demis the Sabas' intervention was very constructive, though.

10:38Yeah. It was pretty short and easy to read. For sure. Very clear with a strong message, which is, this is coming. Guys, let's do something about it. Yeah. So he was calling on the US to lead on it.

10:53Danny Fortson: Which makes sense because that's where all the kind of the big labs are, the big tech companies are. But it's like, who is actually going to convene this? and maybe it does need to start with the labs or maybe outside the labs maybe a musician or somebody who's deeply ensconced in this world because we should say this is a perfect segue of course to this week's guest and i think it's worth pointing out that and you mentioned earlier will.i.am you know there's a lot of like entertainers who have become like hey i'm a brand ambassador for this new thing but he is not that no he's yeah he's much deeper more deeply involved.

11:31Danny Fortson: So I'm really looking forward to hearing from him on all of this. Yeah. He's got a really long history with tech, both as a musician using tech in his music and beyond. I mean, he worked within Intel. He's an investor, an investor in open AI, Anthropic, Lovable. He started his own tech companies and it was really, really cool to get to speak to him. I mean, as you know, we hear a lot from the creative industries about how annoyed they are about the advent of AI and how it's shaking up business models. And actually, I was very surprised about what he had to say about that, about creativity, how he thinks about making music, where ideas come from.

12:10He was very philosophical. And I don't think we get to interview many people like that.

12:14Danny Fortson: And I think it's really easy and something we always have to keep in check is like you can just have a parade of nerds on this show or any tech show who are just... Don't say that. I don't want to put the parade off. but you know what i mean people who are like inside making it and like have fully drunk the kool-aid and then so it's nice that people who are kind of using this stuff are on the cutting edge but just coming from a completely different perspective perspective and very thoughtful about yes and getting to take that step back and thinking how hang on how does that affect me the creative community other communities and he is very thoughtful on all of those things i mean he's very concerned about the benefits of ai not being shared widely and we spoke while he was in geneva having been in milton keen's for a black eyed peas tour he was combining the two are still touring yes i do not know that well shall we uh shall we hear from the man himself We should.

13:15Let's have a listen. Just to let you know, there is some swearing. Again, I don't think I've ever said that on this podcast before. What do you know? Oh, dear. I'm sorry. You're not averse to a bit of swearing, Danny Fossum.

13:27Danny Fortson: No, I was. Anyway. I was being facetious. Let's see. Let's see what he has to say. This is my first time here physically. I've been going to Davos World Economic Forum since 2015. So 11 years. We talk about AI at WEF, but it's not like the focus. because there's not that much time. So what AI for good is, is to really just focus on AI and robotics and address the concerns and then use the time to imagine a path and get commitments from folks that are the builders to have an ethical path to market. I said a sentence at a panel yesterday. They're like, what is AI for good? I was like, imagine the earth was a computer.

14:14And human beings are the large living model. Then AI for good is the prompt that the folks that are building follow that prompt. If you don't follow that prompt, then you didn't get the assignment and you have a bad model, bad path to market. Why wouldn't you have AI for good? So the idea is to create that prompt and push people to follow it. Execute the prompt. No, no, no. Not create the prompt. The prompt is created. It's called AI for good. Now folks that are building it need to execute it. And those that don't execute it, well, then what did you do it for? What were you making AI for if it's not for good?

14:52When I was talking to people about this interview, their first reaction was, oh, wow, that is so cool. And then their second reaction was, what's Will.i.am's involvement in tech? And I just wonder what drew you as a creative into this industry, which to many people feels like completely the opposite of that. So I don't play the piano like a pro. I'm not a pianist. I'm not a guitarist. I'm not a flautist, a saxophonist. I'm not a drummer. I could play the piano enough to write a progression. and then I can play the drums enough to get some basic rhythm down. But for that to sound decent, I have to come to my computer and edit it.

15:39So what type of musician am I? Well, I'm not really a musician from that perspective. I am an arranger and an editor and a songwriter. I can't sing other people's songs. I can sing my songs. Sing a Whitney Houston song? No, definitely not. Sing a Michael Jackson song? No. But I can write a song for Michael Jackson. I can sing that. And I can edit it to my interpretation of perfection. So if that's the case, what is my instrument? Well, the laptop is my instrument. The computer is my instrument. And most every person that comes from hip hop entered music from a sampler, which is a computer. You can't record without the tech.

16:16A microphone, RCA. Our first Steve Jobs is Edison and Tesla, radio and microphone and gramophone. So our founders of this tech are technologists. And then they put music on it. And then some of us were fiddlers of technology that manipulated the technology. So in a way, hip hop is some version of artificial intelligence because artificial intelligence sampled and gobbled up everything. Artificial intelligence is a repository of a lot of stuff, if not everything. But not every artist has sort of gone into the world of tech in the way you have, right? Because I completely hear what you're saying about the influence of tech on music.

17:02But you're sitting now, you know, with the bosses of some of the biggest AI companies, with governments and talking about the, you know, the policy and the philosophy behind the tech. How did that come about? I'm curious and a hypercognitive, critical thinker, and mega create mind. I'm always like, oh no, but if I did this and if you did that, that mentality of pattern matching, that's how my mind works. And so if you're making any type of product, whatever it is, people that make the product want to be around that type of mind. It's a tilt. Do you see it this way? Can you see what I see? Like, you're always searching for the things that people can't see.

17:48Do you see that? So to your question, how did I get into a room with these folks? Well, at first, at one point in time, we launched iPod and iTunes. And I had the chance of meeting Johnny Ives and Tony Fidel, the makers of the iPod. And I met Jim Basile from BlackBerry and Paul Jacobs from Qualcomm. and I was fascinated by these folks that make products. And I would ask them questions like, how much did it cost to make this prototype? Before you even made it, what was the prototype? How much did that cost? What did it take? How long did it take? What was the seed? What was the first seed? Because I'm curious about that.

18:26How did the dominoes fall for the iPod? How did the dominoes fall for the iPhone? How did the dominoes fall for the MacBook? How did the dominoes fall for Tesla? What was the first seed? And then what was the journey to manifestation? So that took me to then like wanting to know about, more about the makers and the builders. And I learned about a car company out of San Jose. And I took 80 grand of my own money from tour, flew up to San Jose, drove to their office and asked them if I could invest the$80 ,000 in this car company that hadn't come out yet. hey come on man I'll help you promote it let me invest 80 ,000 car's not even out yet so I can't buy it so I could invest and then I'll buy the one that comes out and so they they let me invest these two founders that car company is Tesla now so I invested in Tesla early was that pre-Elon Musk yeah pre-Elon Musk just wanting to meet more of these brains and because it is a touchy subject.

19:37The question that you're asking me, why do I love tech so much? And some people in the community concerned about it. On the copyright thing, how do you feel about your songs and your work being ingested and used, perhaps without recompense? Like when you talk about the business model, how do you think, I mean, are you okay with it? And do you think it should work in a different way? There's eight notes. You don't have an infinite amount of notes. The combination of notes you don't have an infinite amount of combination of notes beats you don't have an infinite amount of that type of beat it's just math and so there's a part of me that feels like is there is there original idea anymore nope there's not do i want my ideas to be protected yes i do the ideas that i have can people borrow from them yes they should do you mind that you influence people?

20:34No, I don't. Do you want to be compensated for your influence and being an inspiration? Yes, I think I should. Were you influenced by people? Yes, I was. So it's the business model that you're asking, not the tech. Tech is the tech. The business model is what the question is. It's like, how long is the copyright? How long is IP? So for me to just be hyper creative and just always be in a position to to receive and release receive release rinse out sponge up rinse out sponge up rinse out i don't want to think about that i have a lawyer that thinks about that i have people in my world that think about that and that yes i have a belief yes protect me i'm protected cool great now let's let's stay creative yeah but a lot of artists are worried about this and upset that they feel that that their content's being used and as you say it comes down to the business level, right?

21:26That they haven't been paid or. That's why I'm like, it's the business model, not the tech. Yes, exactly. Yeah. Do I want to be compensated for influence and inspiration and people borrowing my works? Yes, I do. Does everybody? Yes, they should. But it's the business model, not the tech. What I was trying to say is there, as I'm sure you know, there are various lawsuits going on. People are worried about not being recompensed and that may be down to the business model, but we don't seem to have sorted out the business model yet. Yeah. We're six years into it. This is six years old. Back to my thing.

22:01You hear this bass line? This drum. That's drum. That's drum loop. That's universal. Who owns that freaking pattern? Does anybody own that pattern? No, no one owns that. No one can own that pattern.

22:17Now in the bass line.

22:23We know this pattern.

22:34We know that rhythm, but who owns that? That song is called Billie Jean. Then there's another guy named Billy Ocean who had the same pattern and same bass line.

22:55Different intro, but if I get to the bulk of it.

23:05Different key though. Same pattern. Same. but then it gets even more funky. Caribbean queen.

23:18The vow is in. Billie Jean. Who's just a girl who claims I am the one. The landing is one. No more love on the run. The landing with Billie Ocean is one.

23:40From the vowels to the pattern, it's the same math. Now, in this case, did AI do that? Or is that human influence? So if you're a musicologist, if you're a pattern matcher, you're like, hey, wait a second here. That pattern is the same pattern there. That rhyme scheme is the same rhyme scheme. That vowel scheme is the same vowel scheme in the same song. So it's okay for humans to borrow. But people that make machines that borrow, that are creative too, like where's the protection? It's really, really great to hear from you on this, I have to say, because I speak to lots of people in the creative industries who have kind of quite a set view on it.

24:16And it's really very rare to meet someone who sits in the center of the Venn diagram in the way you do and thinks about the tech, as you say, like from the creative side, which is really interesting. Only because I think people use this word creativity very loosely. Yes, I'm sure that's right. creativity and you're thinking of musicians. I think creativity. I think of mathematicians. I think of scientists. I think of engineers. You see honey, I see bees. You see paper, I see trees. You're saying AI and creativity. You're looking at musicians. I'm thinking of the mathematicians. I'm thinking of the engineers.

24:50I'm thinking about the freaking like refiners that refine the rare minerals to make the tech. It's the creativity is beyond. The musicians will be all right. These creatives that you're talking about, the true creatives will be okay. The ones that I'm concerned about are the assistants, the sales clerks, the lawyers, the accountants, because that is all memory. That's not expression. If we're talking about protection, let's talk about the disciplines, the domains that actually need protection. Journalists in 2040, there will be something that has talked to everyone, not everyone. Yeah, I mean, depends on them wanting to talk, doesn't it?

25:30No, no, no. You are really good journalists and you studied it and you've done lots of interviews. And your way of guiding people through questions has given you your career and your output of how you like edit the conversation. AI would have pattern matched every conversation it's ever had, everything ever put on Reddit, everything ever searched on Google because all that data is purchasable. Historic data though, no? No, real-time data. You don't know what people are buying right now. You don't know the traffic conditions on the street right now, the weather conditions, the hospital, all that information.

26:13The world is just like this is putting out so much data. For example, if I told you in 1986, hey, in 2026, this is the experience that we're going to be living in. You'd be like, fuck out of here. What are you talking about? That sounds like some some hocus pocus. Like, no, no, that's that's what the world's going to be like. If I told you in 1996, if I told you in 2009, 16 years ago, that you're going to go to a computer and you're going to type in lyrics and then the computer is going to sing it, produce it. You'll be like, wait, what? It's 2009.

26:542009.

26:58Check this out. You know I always come with that next. What is that? What is that? This right here is the future. I input my voice, high notes, my low notes, then the whole English vocabulary. What you're able to do with that, because of this artificial intelligence, like, when it's time to make a new song, I just type in the lyrics, and then this thing sees it, says it, raps it, talks it. This is it. But that means I don't gotta, like, rap anymore or something? I mean, you're still rapping, but... Like, I mean, me physically, like, in a vocal booth. No. Okay, so you're saying machine can do anything that an artist or a group can do.

27:48Yes. This is what's going to take the peas into 3008. This is the future right here. We're not just going to not go to the studio and not see anything. I mean, it takes the soul out of it. No, you can still go to the studio. It could be go to the studio and check out what the machine does. Yeah, but it's not real, Will. It is real. We're not robots. It's not robots. Nobody's saying robots. All I'm saying, you guys are taking it totally wrong. So this conversation that we're having, look at the date on there. Look at the date. No, I've seen it before as well. My point of what I'm trying to get at.

28:20So that's my job gone. No, your job's not gone. Your job's going to change. So what's coming, similar to how I saw Text2Music and Suno in 2007, for us to make this video in 2009.

28:44So when we said I'm so 3008, you're so 2000 and late, what do we mean by that? What were we talking about? If you watch that video, in this video it's about Black Eyed Peas, we're going around looking at the world and we're seeing it all technological. On the second half of the video, we get this blaster, this frequency blaster to get people out of a loop, to help them see past the loop, which is a rhythm, which is an algorithm, to free them from being in the algorithm state. That's what I'm going to be rocking that body is about. Boom, boom, pow is us trapped in a machine, right? So we've always been in this like sci-fi, sci-fact, plausible tech perspective.

29:25But you do that by understanding where things are going and where things are more importantly. And I'm always trying to push like, how can I create? How can I design in where it's going? How can I follow the puck? So what I'm seeing what's coming next is because everyone is GPTing and clotting and clot coding, there is no more data. Humans aren't making any more differentiated data from last year. The steps are the steps. the conversation or the talk, right? That's why they can predict really well. And because the data is similar to past data, the predictive models are that much more effective.

30:07So we're now in synthetic data where the machine is making its own data based on its predictions of us. And that one, that one is the conversation that we should all be having. Not the musicians, every human being on earth. IBM said, think, compute. Apple said think different. We need to think critically. And we need to be unpredictable in a world where you can be predicted. So this conversation is a predicted conversation. We're going to talk about AI. I bet you're just going to ask me, what do I think about music and projecting the artist? Why? Because, of course, you're going to ask me that.

30:46I'm a musician. And you would think the predictive question is like, what do you think about music and artists? Well, it's not the tech. As a matter of fact, the tech has gobbled up everything. What do you want to be asked? What do you not get asked that you'd like to be asked? What are your hopes for the technology? And what are they? I mean, you talked about, you know, so 3008, like what's the excitement? Imagine you lived in the South Bronx in the 80s. and all your funding for education and city development was taken, stripped away. And I say that because South Bronx, that's the birthplace of hip hop.

31:30And life was tough there. Life was tough. But imagine you lived in favelas in Mongeda in Brazil or the slums of India. Imagine you lived in the Congo. AI responsible for how people lived or are still living in those conditions? AI did that? Are those people concerned about AI? or they can turn about hi human intentions or greed manipulation extraction ignorance you know division well how can people live like that who's responsible for that what does the world look like if the folks that are living in those conditions ai is not their worry the world has already fell apart the calvary never came and now once and for all they have like this abundance of information now they can ask they can be critical thinkers and they can solve their problems themselves now their living conditions can improve because now they have access to knowledge not because they're like some like terminal wizard or some coder they just have access to results and outcomes by taking what they they're passionate about what they're concerned about and render out a solution.

32:44So my hopes are that folks from these communities get their hands on this technology and come up with solutions to their problems. They come up with new industries because industries will topple. There'll be new journalistic practices. There'll be new industries that come. I ask this question to myself all the time. What industry is AI? is ai just to like redo the music and television industry or is it supposed to create a new industry it's supposed to create a new industry people are just not using their imagination on what to do with it so the first thing they put on radio was theater the height of radio is not theater but the first thing they put on it was theater the first thing they put on tv was radio but then the soap operas came people don't know what they what to do when they when the technology first comes so they they do what they used to do on the new and then the dreamers come the imagineers the folks are like no no no no no i see something different check it out check it out and that day is right around the corner what to do with ai the industry and then the second question The most important question is, what ism is it?

33:57What ism is AI around? Is it capitalism? Socialism? Communism? Racism? Which ism is it? What do we as a community, as a society as a whole, what ism do we push AI towards? I say we push AI towards humanism, solving human problems. talking about music the creatives will be okay imagine if ai was a great stretcher did awesome pilates like yo man you see this ai bro it's stretching really awesome look at all these poses i don't give a fuck i gotta fucking stretch so when you ask me what do i think about music i don't give a fuck how awesome it is i make music for it's therapy for me i have to rinse out my pain myself i don't care how awesome it is prince was awesome did it daunt me from making music prince played every music song wrote and composed better than i ever would but did it stop me from making music no it inspired me and if you would ask prince who are your inspirations he would say james brown jimmy hendrix sly and family stone sly stone if you would ask ai who are your influences i'm sorry what were you trained on if you would ask prince what were you trained on prince was trained his neural network was trained on something and then prince was prince the ai does not have the personification to show you what it likes out of everything it ever has doubled up yet but it is a brain and there is a creator that created it and there are artists as well.

35:42But what ism is it? As a society, what ism are we pushing it towards? And that's why I say there are other people there that need to be protected, because the creatives will be okay.

35:59Danny Fortson: This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by KPMG. We often talk about the shiny object problem with AI, where things look impressive in isolation, but are much harder to roll out across a large organization. Issues like governance, workforce readiness and trust tend to become more important as things scale. KPMG's approach is to look beyond AI as just another technology rollout and instead how it could redesign work across the organization and fit into wider processes and decision making. So it's less about individual use cases and more about how organizations can transform and deliver outcomes powered by AI.

36:39Danny Fortson: To find out more about how it can help your organization make the difference, you can visit kpmg.co.uk slash AI. This episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by health and life insurer Vitality, your health's best friend. Vitality works differently, get active, build healthy habits, and you can unlock rewards from some of the UK's top brands while helping to keep your premiums low. It's award-winning health and life insurance that helps you live healthier. Find out more at vitality.co.uk. Today's episode of the Times Tech Podcast is sponsored by IBM. Wimbledon may look timeless, grass courts, white kits, strawberries and cream, but the way people follow sport has changed.

37:24Fans now expect fast updates, highlights and useful stats wherever they are.

37:29Danny Fortson: IBM works with Wimbledon to help turn live match data into digital experiences, including match chat and the likelihood to win. It's AI in action in a setting everyone understands. To find out more, visit ibm.com slash Wimbledon.

37:50I mean, it's a fascinating interview and brilliant to get to hear from him. As you said, to hear from a very, very different voice. Yes. And a very thoughtful individual on this subject. it did give me a business idea when he talked about you know the demise of journalists it's really interesting to hear how early he was to the tech and that the conversation he was having with the black ip is about what the future of music is going to look like and when we were talking about the future of journalism i pushed back and said no i think journalists do need to talk to people you need to be in certain rooms you need to have certain relationships i still think that's true but i wonder if you would be able to create some sort of journalistic engine that sources could communicate with in confidence that we would be at the other end of and then you could pattern match all these sources if you were working on a certain story but that was the sort of creative thinking that he sparked in me because i'm very quick to say no no this can't possibly happen and actually hearing how he saw music and was completely right about that

38:59Danny Fortson: The thing that I've looked at, and this isn't necessarily an AI thing, but his Billie Jean comparison to Billie Ocean, I love that. Isn't it great? Because you're like, there's however many notes, there's however many beats, there's nothing new under the sun, we're all just sampling from each other, et cetera, et cetera. Which is really interesting because it gets that point on copyright, creativity, who owns what, et cetera. And it was like, that's where the rubber meets the road, is like, what's the business model? You know, when you think about what Napster did in music, it took two decades to get back to where it was the day before Napster was invented.

39:37Danny Fortson: That's how long it took back to just get back to the level of income for that entire industry, because it just decimated it before they figured out the business model. And I feel like that's the point where we are right now. It's very good to hear him phrase it like that as well, because so many other artists that we've heard from who've written to our newspaper, for example, don't take that view at all. Yeah. And are furious. And clearly, like we've had Getty on the pod and they're like, obviously, they don't take that view. No. You know, they're suing these AI companies. You know, the New York Times is suing OpenAI, et cetera.

40:13Danny Fortson: But this is the game on the field now is like, how do we figure out a model? if you enjoyed that there is an extra episode where we go which we don't normally do no we don't thought i had half an hour with him and it was such a pleasure we just got to keep talking so that's will i am and i think maybe the biggest celeb we've had on the pod so far i mean it depends if you know speaking of the parade of nerds we've had some like really big nerds here like like the hall of fame nerds maybe the coolest celebrity maybe that's a better way Yeah, the coolest, for sure. For sure. But like, if you're in Techland, we've had all the biggies, you know?

40:52Danny Fortson: That's true. Yeah, just depends on your perspective. But we like the nerds. We do. We love the nerds. More nerds, more nerds. Yeah, exactly. But that is it for this week's episode of the Times Tech Podcast. If you're enjoying the show, drop us a line to let us know. And we'd love to know your thoughts on today's discussion. Yeah, get in touch. Email us at techpod at thetimes.co.uk. And if there's anyone else you want to hear from in the parade of nerds that maybe we haven't had on the show or any other ideas, let us know. Yes, indeed. And I'm going to now hobble myself back to Heathrow shortly and go back to America.

41:27I'll see you on the big screen next week.

41:29Danny Fortson: Yes, indeed. Or the little screen. But yeah, see you there. Bye-bye. Bye. This episode of the Times Tech Podcast was sponsored by KPMG. One of the themes we keep coming back to is the gap between AI ambition and real-world application. And that's where KPMG is focusing its work, helping organizations move beyond pilots and think about how AI can change the way the business operates and how it fits into wider processes and decision-making. You can find all their insights and how they can help your organization make the difference through successful AI workforce adoption. visit kpmg.co.uk slash AI.

42:12Danny Fortson: Today's episode of the Times Tech podcast was sponsored by IBM. IBM's long running work with Wimbledon shows how AI and data can be used in a setting millions of people recognize. From instant match insights to digital tools like match chat and likelihood to win, the aim is to help fans follow the tournament in a more personalized way, whether they're on the grounds or watching from anywhere around the world. And beyond sport, it points to a bigger question for businesses. How do you turn data into something useful, timely and easy to act on? To learn more about how IBM helps create smarter business, visit ibm.com slash Wimbledon.