Cracking the Code on Online Safety with the Rt Hon Peter Kyle

0:00This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents, but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit, and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love, and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks, now made with no artificial dyes. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra.

0:41Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com.

1:04Welcome back to the To Be A Boy podcast with me, Elliot Ray, and Jolie Brearley. First things first, we are loving the interaction, loving the feedback. Please like and subscribe to the podcast for more content on a weekly basis.

1:24today we have an amazing guest an amazing guest to talk to us about online safety so online safety is one of the most important and pressing issues of the day for us it's on our minds constantly and we know it's the same for almost all of you listening parents and carers who are concerned about the content their young people are consuming online in 2024 children in the united kingdom spent an average of 134 minutes per day on TikTok. This was followed by Instagram as children in the UK reported using the app for an average of 49 minutes per day. According to Ofcom, 36 % of children aged 8 to 17 said they had seen something worrying or nasty online in the past 12 months, and children were more likely to experience being bullied by technology than face-to-face.

2:10Research to mark Safe for Internet Day found that 69 % of boys had encountered posts promoting misogyny, with 70 % of teachers saying they had seen a rise in sexist language in the classroom over the last year. Now, this clearly needs government intervention. And finally, it looks like we may have some. So in April this year, the final version of the Children's Online Safety Codes in the Online Safety Acts were published. Ofcom, the online safety regulator, set out the final outline of exactly what steps social media companies will have to take from July, so now, by law to protect children from harmful content online.

2:47The laws will be some of the most far-reaching online safety protections in the world and mean platforms have to protect children from harmful content, including suicide, self-harm, pornography and violent materials. So today we are delighted to be joined by the right honourable Peter Kyle, the Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology. We'll be delving into what online safety codes are aiming to achieve, how Ofcom will be holding social media companies to account, and what parents and carers need to know to keep their children safe online. Thanks for joining us, Peter. It's safe to say that we couldn't ask for a better guest when discussing children's life online and what we can do to help keep them safe.

3:26So welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much. I've been really looking forward to speaking to you. So I won't be exaggerating when I say that the biggest issue for parents and carers right now is how to keep their children safe online. I have a nine year old and she's getting very interested in YouTube and Roblox. And it's a real challenge for all of us to navigate. It's stressing me out. The online world can be dangerous for children and young people with porn, the manosphere, deep fakes, all of that at a touch of a button. And the mental health implications for children is huge. So we welcome the Online Safety Act and the new codes of practice.

4:01Let's start with the bigger picture. What are your overall aims with the Online Safety Act and the new codes of practice? Well, thanks for having me again. It's quite simple. We need to nail down on safety. We need to make sure that young people are safe and secure online, but they feel safe and secure online. And the two things are related, but they are different. And parents need to feel that their children are also safe online. And these are really important things for two very obvious reasons. Firstly, safety is incredibly important. We need to keep our children safe. But feeling safe is also important, which is the second thing, because if you don't feel safe, whether you're physically out and about in communities and you don't feel safe, or whether you're online and don't feel safe, then you are not exploring all of the opportunities that are there because you're constantly worried about what the next step might bring.

4:55And online activity, online life is incredibly important and going to be growing more important as we go forward. And we want young people to grow up into the world being cyber confident, not cyber scared. so that you can explore all the opportunities that are out there. But unless you get safety right, you can't do it. And I'll just say one other thing about your introduction that really struck me. You said it's one of the main concerns that parents have at the moment. And I've been reflecting on this for a great deal before I became a Secretary of State, you know, in opposition, preparing the program of government.

5:25And I came to this sort of conclusion that having spoken to so many parents, having read so much research, and also spoken to so many young people, that if you're 18 and 19 years old today, then you were born the year that the iPhone was released. So if you are a late teenager now, you have never known life without a smartphone. But then if you put that into parenting terms, that means that the overwhelming majority of parents didn't grow up in the age of a smartphone. So they weren't parented by people who understood how to set boundaries for you when you were children, how to guide children through an online life.

6:08So there's no parents that are around currently today that have the lived experience of being parented in an online environment, in a smartphone world, in an app-based world. So there's not something like other parts of parenting where in the physical world, where you're used to setting boundaries for young people about social boundaries, about diet, about exercise, about the amount of time on TV, let alone just online. All these things were instinctive and handed down through generations. But we are the first generation of parents, or you are the first generation of parents, who is having to deal with this.

6:45And because it's new, parents don't feel equipped. And if you don't feel equipped and you're worried, then it means it drives a lot of anxiety. And this is something that I'm thinking very carefully about as we go forward, which I hope we'll come to later in the conversation. Yeah, it's all new and we're trying to figure it out. And I think that's why parents and carers and children are so and so worried and so scared in the act, you're asking the social media companies to make some quite big changes to the way they operate. And it could result in some big behavior change when it comes to young people online.

7:16I think the parents and carers listening want to know about what it means for them and also what the social media companies have to do differently. So can you talk to us about some of the main codes of practice that the social media companies will now have to follow? Of course, you made it sound quite polite that I'm asking them to do things. Actually, I'm a bit firmer than that. I passed laws and we are enacting laws which are requiring, demanding, telling them that they have to do it. And in some cases, it's been a very constructive relationship with the tech companies that many people who are working in tech companies are parents themselves.

7:50So I don't always want to make out that it's an adversarial relationship. But clearly, we needed to up the floor of where the measures are to keep people safe. So there's two big steps forward that have happened this year, or one's happened, one is happening this month. The first is that as of January, platforms are required to take down illegal content from their sites. And it is a criminal offense if illegal content is put onto their platforms and it's not removed. That's the first step that happened. The second one is the most important one that's happening, and that is going to happen in July.

8:25And that is going to be that all material which goes onto platforms must be age appropriate to those people who are consuming it. So it will become a criminal offense if there is material that is unsuitable for young teenagers, and it makes it onto those platforms and it makes it into the feeds of young teenagers. Let me just be really clear about how strident these measures are. Each company could get fined up to 10 % of their global earnings. That takes it well over£100 million. Secondly, each company has to name somebody in their organisation who is responsible for making sure that age-appropriate content takes place.

9:08If they break the law and reach the criminal threshold, that named person will be held to account and could go to prison. This is the first time anywhere in the world this has happened. So individual people are being held criminally liable in the same way that you would have experienced in other parts of the world for things like corporate manslaughter. Well, the same approach is now being taken to making sure that kids have a content given to them which is appropriate for their age. And these two things combined will make a difference. It will feel different for young people, the experience, and it will feel different for parents.

9:47I'm not saying it's the end of the road. These are the first very significant steps forward and we need to keep moving forward. But these are very, very meaningful powers. Can I just clarify what you mean by illegal content? Would that cover pornography, suicide, ideation and harm to others? would that be it in a nutshell? Yes. So if it's set foot out of the legal definition of what is allowed for pornography, then yes, that's illegal. When it comes to suicide site, yes, that is illegal. And they have already had action taken against them. There's one site which has action taken against them. There is another site, which is the most popular, and I hate to use the phrase, the most frequently visited suicide site is not domiciled in the UK, but they've already geo-fenced the UK and withdrawn their site from the UK market.

10:38They actually put a statement out saying that I was infringing on free speech. Well, of course, I waved goodbye to them and I'm happy that they've gone. So it does show that the law is actually working. Again, I'm going to say at the beginning, I don't want to overstate what all of these measures will do because I know that there is going to be exceptions and there's going to be things that will emerge as we take steps forward, but I hope people will see through the course of this conversation that I am determined to nail down on these things. And if there are wiggle rounds, if there are things that slip through the net, then we will act very, very decisively on it.

11:17But these are very big, powerful measures. And it also covers things like hate speech. The kind of activity which is illegal offline is very often illegal online, but there's been no criminal sanction against the platform for actually posting it and disseminating it. But now there is that sanction there. yeah and so the act sounds strong i guess the meat is in the enforcement and we know that ofcom have the power to find the social media companies if they don't comply some of the parents i've spoken to are skeptical about the power that ofcom have and whether they will actually be brave enough to dish out the fines what would you say to that if a meta if a snapchat etc break the law are you confident ofcom and the government are actually going to take action on that?

12:03So Ofcom have already started action based on the powers that they've had since January, and they started that action within hours of having the power. Now, I made myself very clear on how I expected those powers to be used, and that is assertively in the interests of children, young people, and parents in our society. I've also been the first Secretary of State which has issued a statement of strategic priorities. That is a power that's given to me in law that I can write to the regulator and I can tell the regulator formally what behavior I expect the regulator to take in certain circumstances.

12:39And I've issued this statement of strategic priority in order to give clarity to how I, as Secretary of State, and how this government expects the independent regulator to act in order to use these powers and use these powers on behalf of the children and society that they are there to protect. And again, they are an independent regulator, but they are regulated by the laws that we pass. If I think they need more powers, then I will come back and revisit the law. If I think that the existing powers aren't being used assertively enough, well, I will take this up in the regular meetings I have with Ofcom.

13:16But let me just put onto the record now that I am pleased with the way they've been using the powers they have so far. The challenge is always moving forward and not just banking some wins and moving on to the next thing or taking your eye off the ball. We need to continuously move forward until the internet for young people feels like a safe place to be. And we're not there by a long way yet. They have the powers and I expect those powers to be used. So on this podcast, we speak to a lot of parents in advance and get their stories. And we spoke to a mum whose 10 year old saw some very violent porn and it really affected their child they had insomnia they were worried about going to school it changed their personality they became quite withdrawn what would you say to that to that mother you know there's been some criticism that the act doesn't go far enough you said this is an initial step but what would you say to that parent that mum who wants the government to go further and feels like the act isn't gonna stop other families from going through what she went through.

14:17The first thing is, if she is listening, I am sickened by what her child had to go through. And I am deeply, deeply sorry that they had to experience that. I accept entirely that this happened. I think this is not uncommon. I think this will be a familiar story to many of the people who are listening to this, who are parents. I know it's a familiar story to many of the people in the constituency I represent, because I've met parents who've come to me to talk about this and actually show me some of the material that's made into their children's feed. But all I'll say is that these powers, when that happened to her child, were not even online yet.

14:52They weren't enforced. They weren't available to us, to you. But they are now. I want those powers to be used in the name of keeping children like yours safe and free from that kind of interference. I've had a similar situation where my son has also seen some quite violent porn, but he didn't see it on social media. He found it through, he was watching YouTube, he said something popped up, he clicked it, clicked something else and before he knew it, it was on a horrible pornography site and he saw something really graphic and he was 10 when he saw that. But these laws wouldn't stop that from happening, would they?

15:28Because the pornography itself isn't illegal and the site that he was on, that would have been age appropriate because it was four over 18s, he just managed to very easily access it. So is there anything in the bill that would prevent that from happening in the future? Yes, indeed. In fact, porn sites need to age verify their sites as well. This isn't just for social media. This is all platforms. They must make sure that the material that they supply to their customers, their service users are age appropriate. It would be a criminal offense for a young teenager to access the material that you've just described.

16:08And we have been into contact with many of those sites that are UK domiciled so that we have been engaging with them to explain to them what the law requires of them. You know, there are some mainstream sites, there are some big sites, some of the smaller ones which are disseminating some of the material which is probably illegal and is extreme. These will be tackled if they do not prevent young people from seeing the content on their sites. Again, there are many, many of these sites out there. this is a big task that we've got, but we have the power now. And if the issue is about resource in how we get to them, then I'll start addressing it.

16:46Again, I don't want to overstate it, but we have the powers to take down all of those sites. And what you've described would be illegal. Ofcom joined this whole process, which is a laborious long process, have been engaging with porn sites and other areas on the internet to try and explain to them where they're going and also engage with them about it. The law requires that all technological solutions are applied appropriately to their sites in order to verify the age of the people who are accessing it. Ofcom can do an assessment of what technology would be appropriate for their sites. And if they believe those sites aren't using appropriate technology, again, they will be fined, they will be sanctioned.

17:27But if they are, then there'll be progress. If they're not, and I need to go further on things. I'm very, very open about going further. But the intent is very clear in the law. We've got a lot of power now, but I want to reassure all the parents out there and also the young people who do not want to have this stuff put into their feeds and put in front of them to stumble across it. That if these powers are not used in the right way, I will look straight away about how I can act to make sure it is. Peter, let's talk about age. So from the NHS digital site, One in six children aged 5 to 16 in England had a probable mental health disorder in 2021, up from one in nine in 2017.

18:06And this rise correlates with increased screen time and online engagement. And the Young Mental Health Foundation found 60 % of young people aged 13 to 25 say social media negatively impacts their self-esteem. Girl Guiding said one in three girls aged 11 to 21 say they feel unhappy with how they look because of images they see online. So the minimum age currently for Instagram, TikTok and Snapchat is 13. There are some restrictions and parental approval at that age. But do you think 13 is really old enough? And should we raise that age like Australia have done to 16? It's a really good question.

18:45And I don't have a definitive answer, which is based on definitive evidence. And it's hard for a politician like me to not be sort of definitive on every question that's put to me. But on this, I'm quite open minded. And I have been commissioning research from within my own department. We've been commissioning academic research into these sorts of issues. Firstly, my view is that parents should be in control of when their kids should be accessing different materials and have access to different apps and smartphones and the like. But there should be a floor for which it is right for every teenager.

19:18At the moment, that's 13. When it comes to social media, that's the lowest age for mainstream social media. And when you speak to young people, when you speak to organizations like the NSPCC, they don't support withdrawing services entirely from teenagers or raising it to something like 16. But there is a lot of emphasis on tackling the unhealthy behavior which emerges on them. And this is something I'm looking at really carefully. I realize that there'll be a lot of parents screaming into the ether at the moment because they will have experiences which are really painful, difficult experiences they're going through in families.

19:58And they'll be saying, I'm out of touch on this. But you have to understand that I'm being asked to pass a law for every child, for every young person, and for every family in the country. So I do so very, very carefully and mindful of what that means, because there are a lot of teenagers out there who are using this material in a healthy way. And it is reinforcing of them and it's helping relationships which might be distant and all these sorts of things. So what I'm focusing on is building the evidence base, which is reliable, and then also thinking about once I've nailed down on safety, how I move towards health.

20:38And I'm spending a lot of time trying to understand what a healthy online life means for children. I've not heard anyone talking about this. I hear lots of people talking about what health means in the offline world for young people. We talk about exercise, we talk about diet, we talk about social networks, we talk about accessing different services and boundaries and all these sorts of things and curfews and bedtimes and things. But we don't have that same conversation about what a healthy childhood looks like online. So I've been having that conversation within my department, trying to understand where I move forward with the agenda and what my agenda is for online life.

21:20And I'm looking at things like some of the addictive nature of some of the apps and how we can start tackling some of the addictive nature of the apps when it comes to young people's use. I'm thinking of things like sleep, which is incredibly important for young people and how some of these apps interfere with sleep. I'm looking at things like study and the interruption that people have for their studies. And I think all of these things are things that I might be able to do from a position of government in order to help parents focus more on the lovely side of parenting and have less time wrenching phones out of kids' hands and having a big row when it comes to bedtime and constantly fretting when they're on the phones and they're out of sight.

22:07This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents, but choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit, and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love, and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks, now made with no artificial dyes. This episode is brought to you by Palmolive. Family time isn't just the big moments. It's weeknight dinners, sitting around the table, everyone talking all at once. So when the plates are empty and the sink is full, use Palmolive Ultra.

22:48Palmolive's most powerful formula removes up to 99.9 % of grease, leaving your dishes sparkling clean. And the new convenient pump makes cleaning even easier, so you can spend less time tackling dishes and more time together. Shop now at palmolive.com. yeah Peter can I ask you can I ask you a question on that yes yeah I definitely hear it can be it's complicated it's complicated and one thing I had a conversation with a young person in my family the other day they're at school they're in secondary school and they were saying during their year 10 maths GCSE classes there are kids with their phones under their work boots and texting their friends when they're supposed to be listening to the teacher what do you think about that I don't think there is any place for smartphones in the classroom.

23:34I'm categoric on that. Unless there is a real reason why one particular class requires it, in which case that would be an exception, not the rule. I want each individual school to have the power to enforce it in the way that's right for them. The Department for Education has done research into this, and 97 % of schools ban smartphones from use on schools already. The only thing that people ask in addition to that is, do we pass a law that mandates that you can't have phones in schools? I'm reluctant to do that because, you know, when you pass a law, you're going to make people criminally liable.

24:14You know, if you start going down that path, who gets fined or who gets sort of taken to court or, you know, is it the child? Is it the parent? Is it the school? Is it the teacher? So when you go down that path, it becomes very difficult to see how using legislation to tackle this issue takes us to a place that's really constructive. But we do need to make sure that there are no phones in schools. And the guidance from the Department for Education is very, very clear that there's no place for it. Just to say another thing, which is really obvious that almost all of your listeners who are parents will understand, is that parents do love being in touch with kids when they're on the way to school, on the way back from school or after school.

24:57So there is a kind of acceptance that kids need to have smartphones from a certain age and with parental permission in parts of their life. Travel cards, gym cards, these are all held online in their smartphones now. Also payment systems are all held in digital wallets now. So there's a lot of reasons why when you're out of school, you need to have your phone with you, or there's a reason why young people would want to have their phones with them. So we have to be very careful about how we do it. But I do agree with the premise that there's probably too many kids who find a way around it and they shouldn't be doing it.

25:30I just want schools to have all the power they need to tackle it. And I think there are some technological solutions that I'm exploring that could make government more assertive on behalf of parents and teachers in achieving a smartphone-free classroom. There are some schools that have done the scheme where you put your phone in the locker don't know before you go into this classroom which seems to be working quite well but I do know children who are actively encouraged to use phones in the classroom as part of their lessons which then sends the message that that's very welcome we had a boy called Josh Sargent on the podcast who is 15 years old who agrees with you that banning phones and banning social media for under 16s is not the right way to go and he thinks that there should be more moderation on the content that children are accessing.