Joe Wicks Counters With Some Positive Masculinity...

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1:11Welcome back to To Be A Way podcast with me, Elliot Ray. And me, Jolie Brayley. Today we are joined by one of the most recognisable voices in health and fitness in the UK, Joe Wicks. During the pandemic, Joe became a household name with his PE with Joe workouts, streamed live into homes and classrooms around the country. I was definitely in my living room doing star jumps and push-ups. Joe has a huge following as the body coach and author of Lean in 15 recipe books. Sharing workouts and nutrition advice has helped millions of people rethink their relationship with exercise and food. Joe has used his platform to speak openly about mental health, ADHD, body image and his own upbringing.

1:51and campaigning for better support for children's health and well-being. Through documentaries, books, and his advocacy around food and physical activity, he's become an important voice in the national conversation about how we help young people thrive. Welcome to the podcast, Joe Wicks. How you doing, Joe? I'm good. Thank you for that introduction, mate. It's lovely to finally get to catch you. We obviously bumped into each other at an event. I'm so glad we can have a conversation now. And yeah, I think your podcast is great. What you're doing, the message you're sharing is really important. want to say I'm super passionate about so I'm looking forward to our chat really.

2:22Oh it's great to have you here. So Joe we met last June and we were in the queue for Jamie Oliver's new premiere and I was I was like you know with the normal people with my friend Natalie in the queue and I looked behind me and Joe Wicks was behind me in the queue and I thought you know what you could have easily have gone straight in with the rest of the VIPs and I thought it showed us such a humility and you know a grounded person who was willing to join the queue. I want to start with that you know you've had a massive rise to fame you're a household name I'm sure you get recognized everywhere you go how have you managed to maintain that grounding and that humility as you've become more popular I get asked this question a lot actually because I think it's such a perception of fame and like what your life really like you know from an outsider's view with social media and I might do an event and a thousand people turn up but that's obviously like an event that I've organized and I've announced it and stuff but actually I really I really have a nice level of fame like I can you know I go into London on my own I jump on the train like obviously go to certain events where there's lots of families and kids and they I'm not going to say people don't recognize it but it's not like to the point that I don't want to be out and I actually always love the interaction sometimes it's a quick little you know oh Joe I loved your videos in lockdown or I'm with my um friend who's got your cookbook can we have a quick selfie it's not like a an it's like a fame from like a you know like a pop star or like a a famous tv actor I think because people always feel like they know me.

3:43They sort of feel like I'm a friend when I bump into them because they've done all my workouts. I've been in their living room. So it's always been, yeah, I've never really had an issue with it. Do you know what I mean? And if anyone ever sees me when I'm out, I always say hi because sometimes people, they get a bit nervous and then they'll DM me on Instagram saying, I just saw you, I really wanted to say this. And they'll send me this lovely message. And I say, oh, listen, next time you see me, tell me because I love meeting people, knowing that I've got that connection and that I've actually had an impact on someone's life.

4:09So, yeah, it's something that it's not been... I haven't had to think about that. It's really just, I just kept my feet on the ground. I am who I am. You know, I really have a close group of friends that I've kept my sort of circle quite close. And I didn't really get caught up in the whole fame and celebrity red carpet kind of atmosphere of that environment. So yeah, basically I've built my business at home on an iPhone with my family. It just so happens that you all get to see it in lockdown and I've televised it through Instagram and stuff. Yeah, I love that. I definitely feel like I knew you when I met you because you've been in my living room.

4:41but let's let's go back to the beginning then so you've spoken quite openly about like your upbringing and I know it wasn't always easy um addiction with your parents and mental health as well can we talk about that in regards to your upbringing and what are the parts of it that really shaped the man you are today yeah I've I've gone down this um sort of path of exploration around my child a little bit recently with um you know I did desert island this was the first time I really publicly spoke about my dad's kind of addiction my mom's mental health issues and then I did a documentary with um channel four which is called facing my childhood I really sort of went into like what my parents went through and how that affected me as an adult but the more I understand it the more I realized that everything I went through as a child has really shaped me as the man I am today like it's really taught me to be a good parent to be present to have empathy for people and to really be considerate and thoughtful and caring towards other people and And, you know, I really, although I went through, you could say a traumatic childhood, there was a lot of, you know, a lot of shouting and, you know, lots of kind of, I didn't see the drugs, but the effect of drugs on my dad, because my dad was a heroin addict.

5:49So it was very, it's like, it's just a sedative, right? So he was there, but it wasn't really emotionally available. And my mom had eating disorders and extreme OCD. So I had two really different personalities that I was living with. But again, I don't, I didn't let it define me or sort of hang on, I didn't hang on to it and let it bring me down. I actually just used all this sort of like, mad energy and mad sort of passion I had and just sort of started sharing it the world and so yeah I just think but a lot of my love and drive towards helping families especially families of children parents of mental health issues it comes from that experience and living in a council flat living in that environment of being on benefits and you know being skinned and everything being you're just stressed out and worried about money all the time and any money that came in was was being used for drugs and stuff so yeah I see it I just think people say like would you change your life or change your childhood and the truth is like I just I'm really proud of who I am today and I wouldn't change what I went through because it's given me a resilience and a mental strength to really do good things in my with my energy my time so yeah I'm proud of my background really to be fair yeah I can imagine when we talked about you being so grounded I can imagine having that upbringing you know what it's like to struggle you know what it's like to not be in a position you're in now and I guess that that helps you know in regards to perspective so as you were growing up in terms of like obviously difficult around the house up and down were there people in your wider community do you have role models that you look to did you have like a shining light did you have examples where you could say yeah this is who I want to become this is how I want to act and behave what was that like for you so yeah I grew up obviously in a council flat you know we didn't have we were on benefits my mum my mum didn't work for for many of my earlier years my dad was a rufer he'd be out and he was like a function addict so he would be working but then he'd be like relapsing and he'd be in rehab and he'd be gone for months at a time and you know I'd no one around me that was kind of like ambitious or entrepreneurial like in business or anything you know and most of my family were probably on benefits at the time um the first time I'd started a proper role model in my life I would say was my my PE teachers like the male role model who I always found out that like could really deal with my energy because obviously when you got someone like me trying to make me sit down in maths and sit down and focus on something I just didn't enjoy was impossible and I was very irritating and I was annoying I was a I was you know disruptive like attention seeking class clown if you like but in sport and fitness they didn't kick me out of those classes because I was there and they loved it because I was the one getting everyone moving and getting I've got almost like a it's funny I felt like I was a bit of a PE assistant I was assistant to the PE teacher because I'd be the one saying right come on hurry up get dressed we gotta get out there because we can't play football I can't play football on my own like it's a team sport or you know just just like always putting the cones out and trying to get that session started as quick as possible whereas in the other classes I was disruptive I'd be kicked out I'd be sitting in detention in isolation and stuff and so yeah I think the PE teacher and that role model of someone that like really likes me really like my energy we had a great relationship they made me laugh they were always like young and fun and I I really did visualize and want to become a PE teacher that's all I could sort of imagine so that was my sort path from about 14 or 15 I decided that when I leave school I'm going to go to college go to university and I'll be a PE teacher obviously if you fast forward to lockdown although I'm not a qualified PE teacher I really was like in that moment so so happy that I was thinking I'm getting like millions of kids exercise now this is like my dream come true so I kind of came full circle in that moment I didn't name myself the PE teacher to the nation that was obviously the media but I'm really um it just it's kind of like yeah it's just really like what's the word serendipitous that I became in a way a teacher of PE and sport you know through through that social media thing yeah and shout out to all the PE teachers yeah that is we talk about role models male role models so much on this podcast because there is such a need for good male role models at the moment in particular and obviously you've seen that the news is very much directed towards what's going on with boys at the moment particularly after adolescence and now we've got Louis Therese documentary manuscript and there are so many parents so worried about their boys and that they're going to go down the wrong route and a lot of the narrative is the absent fathers are the problem so single mums in particular are really worried about what that means if they're raising boys and feel completely hopeless many of them at the moment and you've just articulated beautifully how there are just good men around boys that they can adopt behaviors that they see from these really great male role models on that point around you know male role models I didn't have a male role role model in the house but those PE teachers through my secondary school years like they really were influential but I think the one thing I'll say about you know when when you have like an absent parent or you know your mum's kind of replacing that role like my mum always loved us and supported us and I think if you love and support your children and you're there's that communication and there's those boundaries because my mum was really strict of us like she she she had like a quite a challenging child and she she left she got kicked out of home at 15 like she was living in a squat you know she she had no kind of rules and regulations where with us she was really strict like we had to respect her so she taught me the fundamentals like how to um you know how to respect women she she wouldn't just let us bring girls home she was like she really I don't know I just learned the values of like being respectful to women and and girlfriends and that really came from her.

11:17So like, don't feel like you, if there's not a male role model, your boys can't still end up really kind and loving. Cause me and my brothers, I've got three, we're one of three boys, you know, we're all good partners. We all respect our women. We love our girlfriends and our wives and stuff. So it's like, it's not, you can, there's hope in that. You can be positive about that. Like, don't feel like you're destined to a child that's gonna be disrespectful to women and stuff because they haven't got a male role model. I think the mum has a really influential role in that, you know, to play. Hmm.

11:46Lovely to hear you articulate that. Let's talk about your relationship with food and body image. So you've spoken about having issues with food and a new relationship with your body. When did that start? Was that in your teenage life? What part of your life did that kind of start at? so obviously growing up as a kid you know when you're on benefits like there's not a lot of money in the house so the food the quality of the food we were eating wasn't great you know my mum was also uneducated on nutrition and cooking because she didn't she wasn't taught these things so I had a probably you know I'd say 90 % ultra processed food diet there wasn't much fruit and veg you know it was very much like you know ready meals frozen meals um lots of snacks and crisps and chocolate and sunny delight all those things in the 80s and 90s you know like frozen crispy pancakes potato waffles all these things that you know tasted great but I was pretty much running on sugar so yeah I'm sure that and knowing now about nutrition I'm sure that had an effect on my focus and concentration at school and my kind of energy per se but you know I just I was never happy with my body because I was really really slim and skinny as a kid and like you know when something hurts your feelings people use it against you so when my brother used to call me skinny or skinny legs it was it would really hurt my feelings so I had this complex that I was skinnier than everyone else and I had no muscle and so I definitely had this feeling of like insecurity about my body so as soon as I got my first job um at 15 when I was working in Wilkinson's in Epsom you know I got a gym membership went to the local homes place and was like every day after school going to lift weights trying to change my physique but I was doing it for mental health too but I didn't know at the time because obviously I was drawn I was driven by the idea of changing my body image but actually what was going on really was an emotional stress relief and it was dealing with the the anger and resentment I was experiencing because at that point as a teenager I was so fed up with my dad relapsing over and over again that it really started to piss me off and so I used exercises as a therapy it was my therapy and essentially so yeah I just I've always had an image you know thing of my body image and but also knowing that exercise for me is more than just changing my physical external self it's actually about my mood my energy my stress levels my optimism for things so it's been a big part of my life the exercise thing, you know.

13:56And for me, Joe, you're the person who actually got me back into exercise. So I became a dad in 2015 and didn't do any exercise properly for five years. After my daughter was born, we moved house, I was just in the thick of parenting and whatnot. And it was locked down and your videos that got me back into exercise. And now I go to the gym every day. I'm a gym goer, I'm exercising, I'm doing my steps. And for me, it's definitely mental as well as as physical as well I know there's a lot I go to the gym and there's lots of young boys there which is great because health and fitness is of course important but I do also feel like they are chasing maybe being influenced by the manosphere and what they're seeing online chasing like the perfect body and I do get worried that they're at the gym for the wrong reasons as well what would you say to to parents of young boys or young boys who are maybe exercising just to get buff and they feel that pressure of I need to look a certain way what would you say to those young people I'm going to be honest with you about saying right when I was um when I was at university this is in like you know 2005 um I've done a dissertation um and I've still got it it's like it was um it was body dysmorphia and social physique anxiety in young men you know I was really interested in this idea of like why am I going to the gym but I still don't like my body and why are we so driven by like trying to physically change the way we look and this and you know that's back in the day when all you had was like men's health and men's fitness right and even today it feels so apt today that I did that because as a 40 year old today I would say my self-confidence around my body is probably the lowest it's ever been because of social media right because I but now if you if you look at one physique like and my my Instagram explore page is a lot of like really fit ripped muscly guys right and what has happened is it's slowly but surely like kind of warped my view of like what a man's body should look like and you know the fact is most of them are going to be using peptides growth hormones steroids anabolic stuff you know so it's just it's not a realistic physique but because i've been lift honestly if i told you how hard i've trained and how much food i've eaten over the last 20 years and my body doesn't look much different to when i was 18 right but you can get these guys now within the space of 12 months you know doing certain performance enhancing drugs and their their body looks ridiculous they look unbelievable you know they're ripped their shoulders are massive and it's most I can I'm starting to understand now that it's not natural but when you're seeing that every single day it really you start to compare yourself you can't help it so I'll be really cautious about you know young children being exposed to social media and you know same for girls right and female physics is beautiful fitness models and it's happening to me I'm 40 years old like and I understand the fitness industry but so many people just think it's not they think take your protein and creatine you know have a protein shake and have the creatine and you're going to suddenly look at that but it's it's just on it's just so difficult to build muscle that it's just a real kind of um walk view and you get this dysmorphia around like your body and what you should be looking like and and it is it's really prevalent because social media now once you look at one video of one guy that's ripped up and talking about retrotreutide or growth hormone and testosterone that week all your video all you're going to be served because the algorithm like sticks onto you so quickly is this message of well everyone's doing growth hormone everyone's doing peptides everyone's doing um this stuff and you start to think like i'm never going to look like that unless i'm wanting to do that and then obviously people do get drawn i've never gone down that path but young people are getting drawn into taking these substances before their bodies are fully developed and it's a massive issue definitely because the people that use it are so they're so evangelical about it like oh my god look at this I'm on this cycle my body's completely transformed click the link or dm me to get the you know whatever the the contact to these to these supplements and things and it's most people just selling like fitness plans and supplements but really they're doing it unnaturally so yeah it's a big issue right now facing young men I would say do you also think we can take fitness a bit too far in that like I have a 12 year old and a 10 year old son two boys and my 12 year old is obsessed with the gym like he wants to go to the gym all the time and I said to him the other day like I'm glad that you're into fitness I really like it but you also need to go out when you're a bit older and have fun like I do both like go out drink a bit fall over you know I'll come and pick you up but also be be healthy and go to the gym and it seems to me lots of kids now don't do the fun bit they don't go out and get drunk and fall over like we did when we were younger they're just obsessed with going to the gym constantly and sometimes I think like I withdraw from talking about fitness a bit to my kids because I feel like they're getting so much pressure externally on fitness that actually it could mean that they miss out on so much fun like my formative years all the things I remember that were fun when I was younger were me going out with friends and bonding and community and and getting drunk and falling over and doing the silly things that kids do and so yeah so I sometimes veer away from talking about fitness to my kids do you think sometimes maybe there's too much talk about fitness yeah because I it's hard for me to comment on that because I haven't got teenagers yet you know and all of my friends we've all got sort of like five six seven eight year old kids so we're not at that stage where like I can have conversations like how are they doing with school and fitness or what are they like socializing so but I know there's a massive cultural shift like with nightclubs closing with you know there's like saunas with raves in there's like you know a lot of you know people like celebrating that you know not drinking a sobriety which is a positive thing because you know alcohol i obviously i wasn't a big drinker but i did used to have a night out i would go out drinking but i think people just more aware of like the impact on their mental health and so there's obviously like i mean there's sobriety influences right there's there's zero free beers and alcohols and things i think there's a massive shift in like gen z especially gen z like they'll go to a gig in a concert the minute the last songs play they just walk out so that these venues aren't selling beer and people aren't like part until two in the morning but I took you know with my kids I'm always trying to make it fun so we don't have structured like fitness classes I'm like come we're gonna it's more like let's go on a bike ride let's do some you know hide and seek in the garden let's do some pad work and have a little bit of fun but it's always like multi-sport so like one minute we'll say let's go to the park and we take our basketball football and our skates and our skateboard and so I'm just trying to give them a chance to experience movement but I mean and you know none of it's competitive right none of my kids they do they do clubs and things but it's really for fun but I don't know yeah of course you you can be too extreme of anything but I you look at me and think oh you're addicted to exercise and it's a negative thing but I've always just loved it and it's been such an easy natural thing for me to do like it's just in my DNA it's such a default setting that when I wake up whether I'm in a good mood or a bad mood or whatever I'm feeling I do a little bit of exercise and it shifts it shifts my day and makes me feel so positive so I think it depends what sort of your personality type is but if you are consuming lots of social media and seeing lots of images of physiques and supplements and you know people doing steroids it's going to be and you're young 16 17 18 year old guy you're going to be influenced by these things a lot more um and so yeah you just have to keep having the conversations and and keep supporting them and guide them and asking them you know what is it what's driving you to go to the gym like is it about your health or is it um you know about your your mental health or your body and just have like those open conversations then you might get to a more positive place of it yeah I like that yeah and I think you're a great male role model by the way I don't think that you're addicted to exercise and it's bad things oh thank you and I'm glad you say that I just think everyone every look every kid's so different every teenager's gonna have their own little view on exercise and I don't know I'd be more I'd be so much happy if my kids were into exercise and if they weren't I'm to really like you know struggle and see them struggling because I think when you're active you just have a much better life right simple as that you just have an easier life less stress and you feel your body moves better so overall it's a more positive than negative i think that kids are exercising and getting to the gym and stuff yeah and as jody said i think you are probably like the example of someone who represents this in such a healthy way because i never look at your content or your videos and think oh i need to get buff it's more about health and well-being and it's more about what are you saying about you're saying i've got a little muscle look i can't tell you how strong I can do pull-ups, right, with 20 kilograms wrapped around my waist.

22:18I'm really strong, but my body, I never build muscle. And I eat loads of calories, loads of protein. This is the thing, like building muscle is really, really hard. So when you see these 18-year-olds with these amazing physiques, massive arms, like there's no way it's natural. Do you know what I mean? It's really, really misleading, really. Yeah, 100%. But you're one of the good ones, I would say. I would love for my children when they're old enough to watch your content. I have a 10-year-old and 3-year-old, So I'll be direct to them to your YouTube channel when they're old enough.

22:47I guess the big conversation about male role models and especially visible men in the media, we've had so much conversation about are there good men in the UK? Are there visible male role models, people that we can look to in the media? And you are one of those. how consciously do you feel about that in regards to do you feel like when you're doing your content when you're on socials or just when you're going around in your life are you aware of the impacts that you have on young people do you consciously think about that on your day-to-day basis and do you think we need more visible male role models to actually be out there talking more openly like you do well thank you for um for saying that you think my role model and a positive energy I do want to be that guy I want to be a positive you know run one in terms of exercise and nutrition but as a parent you know as a parent it's hard being a parent you know it's hard being a good parent and a patient parent and with all the stress of what's going on so you know things I share I always do it from a point of like can I help someone can I because I don't ever want to be that guy that's putting other people down or making them feel like they're less than or not good enough as a parent because I know the challenges of being a parent it's not easy so I try to sort of inspire through my content but I don't overthink it you know I don't think oh here's a strategy for um you know getting kids eating better like I just had kids along the way I had to learn to wean and I did a weaning book and that book really helped lots of people get their children onto some some healthy food and obviously now with my animation I'm doing a series of CBeebies and YouTube is called Activate it's a it's an animated workout series for kids your little three-year-old will love it and I don't overthink I just think of different ways I share the message like this is an example this podcast is another way of talking about the things I love.

24:29It might be a documentary, it might be like the ultra processed food documentary. There's different things I do, but it's all gearing towards the same thing, which is getting families and kids and adults exercising, moving, cooking and eating healthier food, and doing those things consistently, because I do believe that is the most impactful thing on someone's health and well-being. But yeah, I definitely have a responsibility, and I'm aware that things I say, you know, can impact people positively, but you know, some things you say can also get taken out of context and you get and you've done the opposite of what you're trying to achieve so yeah you just got to be um mindful of the people people do trust you and that authenticity has taken so many years to build up but what it does allow me it allows me to stay really focused on the task and the mission rather than getting drawn into like you know selling I don't know something I don't believe in or partnering with like a fast food chain or something you know I just have to stick to what I'm good at and really focus on it and it's really given me that longevity it in my career like I'm still going like 14 years later I'm still building an audience I'm still engaging people um but yeah I really I'm really passionate about inspiring people and um I hope that I'm doing that you know even after all these years yeah so we're not going to see a Joe Wixon Burger King collaboration anytime soon is that what you're saying I haven't eaten a McDonald's or Burger King for years I used to love a sausage and a McMuffin though on the way I'd wait to my boot camp I'd do my boot camp and I so after my boot camp I'd go down server and McDonald's have a sausage and a muffin but no them days are over now yeah yeah i was like that and my youngest started going to mcdonald's and i relapsed but i can do better i'm gonna do better um so joe you're a dad you've got four kids how old are your children so i've got a girl who's seven a little boy who's six another goes three and then a boy who's one so yeah we're right in the thick of it it's chaos like this is the quietest you'll ever hear in my house because they've all they've all gone well my mom actually my mom's taking my kids to butlin today and i love as a kid like that was our holiday we'd go camping on the south of france we go to butlin so she's taking my two older kids to butlins for four days um and then i've just got the two babies with rosie this this week so it'll be nice because i can get the two little ones to bed and hopefully have like an hour or two to relax in the evening because when you're putting all four down it takes like two hours and sometimes they're still awake at half nine you're like oh my god how are you not sleeping i've just read you three books go to bed so a lot of my work is around helping dads to balance their career and also being an active dad we have a program called Parenting Out Loud a workplace culture change program you've got four kids and obviously a busy career as well how do you find the balance of homeschooling children being active parent being an equal parent also being Joe Wicks as well well I'm not going to pretend the homeschooling thing is a doddle and it's just walking apart because it's really not it's a proper challenge and it's a commitment we've made but it's not easy it's stressful put it that way but I'm you know I'm really blessed that you know my career if you think about it from the very start like I was living in a flat in Surbiton with an iPhone throwing food in the pan built an Instagram following and I built that lean in 15 business obviously and then obviously the fitness stuff came later but I'm so blessed in the sense that I'm not a TV celebrity where I have to go off doing like weeks of filming documentaries and long days out the office like my office is like my office is here so I've got my kitchen for cooking I film workouts in the garden or workouts in the living room I move stuff out the way and we'll do it in one of the bedrooms and so this is my office so I'm really blessed I get to be around so even if I've got a busy day on like I can still get an hour with the kids or half an hour here little bits throughout the day so that has that's good that's good and bad because it's really hard sometimes to separate between am I being a dad now am I working and they don't really get that so when they come up to me like oh can we play the guitar can we build lego I'm like oh and I don't I don't want to say no but sometimes I listen up right now I'm in my office I've got to do some work and sometimes they'll get involved in the cooking stuff but you know I think I'm just and I thought of all the things I'm grateful for is the fact that I've been able to build a digital business where I can take them along for the journey I really think I would have struggled being a tv celebrity sort of you know filming internationally going around the world and not taking my kids with me because I am at my happiest when I'm with them so I've managed to sort of integrate them into my world and they're part of my you know my part of my I suppose my social media presence is now with them and you know I'm really blessed and grateful that I've got that time because I really know that the most important thing right now for me is time with my kids because this moment like you know like when they get to a certain age we're going to miss this this moment that we're in now these earlier years that these are the most magical years where you feel like you you really can influence them and you can be their best friend and they love it and so that's one of the reasons we homeschool I've got nothing against the school system I think schools are amazing like I love teachers and I would have been a teacher if I wasn't the body coach.

29:08But, you know, I just want to spend more time with them. So I've sort of designed my life in a way to be with them as much as possible. You know, when I do go and do a trip, it's only maybe two or three days. I'm not away for that long when I do travel. And because of that, we've been able to do the homeschooling together. But I think if I wasn't involved in that sense, I don't think Rosie would have, we wouldn't have been homeschooling because it's just too hard. But I don't know. I mean, some days I feel like I'm doing, I'm a really great dad and I'm really patient. And other days I feel like, oh, I shouted at the kids today and I'm not my best self.

29:37But I acknowledge that and I apologize. And I say, look, I'm really sorry I shouted. I'm really sorry. You know, and I think that's a really important thing to teach your kids that it's okay to sometimes lose control a little bit. But as long as you acknowledge it and you apologize and you can demonstrate that, you know, like you can role model in a way that you can you can sort of learn from that. And, yeah, I'm really conscious of that as well. we've got lots of parents that will be listening that either homeschool their children or are considering homeschooling their children as a homeschooling parent what tips would you give them what would you say because I think lots of parents thinking about doing it would think god I haven't got all the things that my kids need within me and they'll be thinking what would I do with them all day how would i keep them occupied so what do you do with your kids so the little ones we can obviously at the moment discount because they're still just exploring the world right so the three-year-old and the one-year-old they're the they're just the troublemakers who just trash the house so they destroy everything like this these boxes of rubbers and pencils will be on the floor so that's that's the biggest challenge for us is trying to sit and do concentrated focus work with the older two but you know once they're napping or they're chilling in front of the tv for a bit then we can get sit down on the older two but the most important thing to know is you're not trying to um you're not trying to replicate school you're not trying to be a school where you're doing like five six hours or whatever it is of learning you're not you're not going to be able to do that because it's really hard in in a home environment and also with concentration things so you've got to be much more flexible with it we learn in the car we learn on the way to you know at the park where every day is a learning day weekends summer there's no like half term we stop learning it's just constantly learning throughout the year so i'm amazed at how much they can learn when you just do focused concentrated you know it might just be 15 minutes of reading or 15 minutes that we're doing this thing at the moment we do like creative writing we just write a little story but what I've learned is that my kids are only good at the guitar because I've sat with them they're only good at reading because I've sat with them only good at reading because I've written because I'm sitting there with them if I walk away nothing gets done literally they'll just write a sentence or they get all stressed out and I'm like okay I'm going to help you with the sentence open in the title and I sort of send them on their way and it's a skill like the creative writing their stories you know they were barely writing a paragraph now they're just writing one little page like we do like a start middle and end and i just it's a skill right so you've got to just you've got to decide what you want to basically download into your child's brain what do you value for me it's like life skills it's cooking it's cooking it's you know it's staying active it's um it's reading and obviously writing we don't have much much screen time like we print out all these like you know little things from like twinkle and even like you know I've got these I might remember these in school that you know so we're still using like things you'd use in school the old cgp books but you've got to be flexible with it and you've got to have you've got to understand that some days you're going to feel like I've taught my kids so much today I'm really happy I've done so well and other days go god they've just been running riot around the house and they've just been playing all day you know but yeah that's something that you've just got to kind of accept that every day is different but I am I am I don't need to be honest I don't know how smart they are because I've got nothing to compare them to you know i don't know i don't know if they're behind or ahead or on target but with with homeschooling you don't need to follow a curriculum you you just as long as they're learning and you keep a track of what you're doing this is another example this is indy's little book right indy's recipe book so she writes you know we might cook a recipe so this is like cauliflower and cheese muffins and that's it for the day we made the muffin she wrote it down that's that's a lesson right because imagine imagine if we do one recipe a week by the end of the year like she's gonna be able to cook that's a really important thing so it just depends what you're passionate about like depends what you want want your child to learn really and it's i love it but it's stressful and it's every day there's a little bit of a conflict you know it's like come on we're doing this and it's not always smooth sailing yeah well do you think you'll continue to do it in secondary school you'll just do it forever yeah we don't know i mean we we've only just really like this year tapped into the homeschool community at the homemade community so So they'll have meetups.

33:36There might be like a meetup in a park or they'll go to Whipstay Zoo and all the kids meet and they can make friends there. And obviously my kids do like football club and they do stagecoaching things and gymnastics. So they're doing their socialising around that. But I don't know. I can't see why I would put them into school because it works for us now. But at the same time, if they really said like, I really want to experience school, I don't want to be homeschooled forever, I wouldn't deprive them that. I would say, all right, give it a go. See how you feel. See how you find it. and let them make a decision.

34:05But at the moment, these young, especially primary school years, I think try it until the end of primary school and then maybe if they want to go in secondary school. But again, they don't really mention it. We interviewed Caitlin Moran on here and she was homeschooled. And she talks about how her and her siblings, I think she has six brothers and sisters, their parents just couldn't be bothered to take them to school. That's why they homeschooled them. They couldn't be bothered to do the school run in the morning. So they just left them to run Feral and they said they just messed about for about three or four months playing games on the computers.

34:40And then they started teaching themselves. And her oldest brother went to Oxford and got like a first. And they weren't home educated as such. They were just left to their own devices with a bunch of books. And they just ended up teaching themselves. It was self-directed. I love Caitlin Moran. She also became a music journalist. so actually she like got into music and you know became a writer a writer wasn't she and she that's the thing like if you what you'll see about your children is like they have a chance to like do what they love so my boy now marley bless me you know i was having to really push him in the guitar music and the piano and now like he runs in the house and he'll run up to the piano he only plays like 10 20 minutes at a time but he's found something he loves he's my where's my girl indy like i really have to like sit with her and she's not into it but when you're at school you obviously do so many different things but at home school if you are going to try home schooling if your kid's really into writing or really into it like let them have more time doing that because they could become an expert or an amazing you know writer or journalist or they could be amazing musician if they get the chance to kind of do what they love and that that is that what i'm seeing my little girl lindy so she is obsessive like after acrobats and gymnastics she just can't stop doing like backbends and walkovers and like you know um cartels and things so it's like if that's pe like that's your sport i'm not gonna force you to come and play football in the garden if you want to do gymnasium just roll around in the living room and do that and it's just that freedom of obviously each child's slightly different um and they can have their own sort of learning technique and style really whereas at school it's very you've got to fit into a certain box sometimes it feels my eldest is at secondary school now and there are like 2 000 kids at his secondary school so the teachers just call him boy they don't know his name and he is you know it's very you must do english and you must do it this way and you you know you will only learn one instrument and it is this instrument and there's no opportunity for him to try the things or to work more on the subjects that he really enjoys it's yeah i just give it a go then maybe give it a go if you can maybe try it for a year i have not got the patience for homeschooling at all i'm far too selfish it is hard you're doing it's testing your patience but you know like you said like if you can get to get to point where if they can read and they can study something they love then they can be more independent but yeah I'm obviously really for it at the moment but ask me again in a few years when they're old and I'm trying to teach them things I can't get my head around and I'm like oh this is too hard get get back to school yeah fatherhood is massive you know it's a massive transformation for men how would you say becoming a dad has changed you your outlook on life your priorities your your worldview on on life so I had my first kid when I was 32 and I always thought I'd be a young dad but I actually you know in my head I'll be like a dad like 25 26 but I kind of delayed it a little bit but then when I had my first little girl I I just found this real sense of peace straight away like that this is really what life for me was about like creating a family and having that stability because I lacked that as a kid you know I really I felt loved I always felt love but it was just the instability of like knowing that it could just all be over all be just completely torn apart if my dad started relapsing and using again or he was kicked out and stuff so yeah it gave me like this sense of like I've finally got something that no one can take off me this is my family now and I've got something I can look after and I just have a lot of love to give so I just I love this little girl so much and obviously I've obviously got four kids and it still doesn't feel like enough I don't know how or why but I'm thinking when am I going to go like this is enough kids for me this feels like I've got enough I still feel like there's one more do you know I mean which is mad but I just love I really love being a dad like I've everything I've achieved in life you know being a good parent and being present and being like a good teacher because I am in a sense I'm a parent I'm a teacher I love teaching my kids whether it's a sport or it's cooking or an instrument anything like I get a real buzz from it because I know I'm creating the future generation of like just nice little people to walk around in the world and be kind to other people but it made me more I suppose I don't know about more ambitious but more kind of like driven to like protect this family and look after this family not just financially but just from like a stability point of view like I don't want to be someone that when things get tough or it's me and Rosie are arguing whatever like that I'm just gonna walk away and abandon them because that's how I felt my dad was that when things got tough you just often it'd be gone and you know because of that I want to be a faithful husband, loyal husband.

39:09I want to be with my kids and my wife and I want to be around. So it's definitely, it's definitely given me like everything I wanted. Basically, if you ask me what makes me my happiest, it's not, you know, book sales and YouTube subscribers and it's really like my family is what really makes me happy. Like that's my foundations. Everything else I do is amazing and I love it, but it's that family unit and I'm really my happiest when it's just me and the kids. I'm not on my phone. I'm with them and with Rosie. And that's kind of what I'm chasing. I want more of that. So I'm thinking, how can I get more of that?

39:40More time with them, more freedom. Is going to the US trying to break America going to do that? Is going to film a documentary for six months in another country? Do you know what I mean? I only really do the things that give me more of that, more time with them. That's amazing to hear, you know, seriously, because I think sometimes we're just chasing more success, more money, a bigger house, more YouTubers, YouTube subscribers and stuff like that. And it's just to hear you say, actually, happiness is in my family. like that is so so so powerful so you're four kids what kind of people do you do you want them to be what kind of like behaviors would you love to see them displaying when they are older what would give you joy in terms of the kind of people they become well I've got a lovely picture up here on the wall because I interviewed him for my podcast it's you know them the boy the fox the mole and the horse and it says what what do you want to be when you grow up kind said the boy indian mali always be kind to each other love charlie so he he gave us that as a gift and um that's it that's it sums it up for me like i don't care about of course i care about being academically intelligent stuff but if they're kind natured and they're generous and they're sharing and another thing that's really important to me is that thing of like thinking about other people like just because you're happy and you're set doesn't mean you have to stop there you can actually use your time and your energy to help other people as well and and like for me generosity is something that isn't forced it's so natural and my little boy marley he's exactly the same i see it in him like when it's when it's like sharing something or giving his last bit of fruit or last bit of chocolate like boom he hands it over that thinking my other girl she finds it a bit harder and it's like it's forced and so i'm trying to teach her like look when marley's giving you that piece of thing he's giving it to you because it makes him feel good tap into that you know when you give you feel good when you help you feel good like it's like you're serving other people so that's that's probably the most the fundamental thing I believe in that not just having the selfish mindset like well I'm good I've got my food I'm sweet I'm good I don't need to think about anyone else actually sometimes when you share that meal or share that gift with someone else then you're then you're like going to be feeling so much happier you know that's a community kind of mindset you know that we've lost obviously sometimes with digital and even within our family sometimes we just think well we're just not connected like we once were so it's actually I'm always thinking about my family trying to build closeness and relationships and kind of memories together like my nan she's 86 she's coming around tonight after this today she's coming for a sleepover not just because I want to see her but I want her to have a relationship with my kids I want my kids to remember their nan so once a week or once every two weeks she comes in as a sleepover and like it's amazing that to me is so important I have this fear that I'm going to regret not spending enough time with people.

42:25So especially my mum and dad, like who are getting older and my nan, like I want to know that when they pass away, if it was like that overnight, I can say, you know what? I had a really good relationship with them. I looked after them. I didn't leave them. My kids know them. You know, these are the things I really, really value. So I'm always saying to my kids, like, look out for other people and think about how they're feeling when they're on their own or they're having a tough time. And that's really the key for me, like the key element of someone's personality that's going to transcend and make you have a happier life, I think.

42:55That's really, really beautiful to hear you say that. I think everyone needs to listen to that. And again, someone in your position saying that is so powerful. So thank you. this is to be a boy where we we talk a lot about the plight of boys um the joy but also sometimes the struggle of raising a boy in today's world you mentioned we don't have the community that we had before you may have seen the new louis fruit documentary around the manosphere there are so many online influences and economic climate is really difficult lack of opportunities lack of funding for third spaces in youth clubs a big question um but what would you like to see society do differently to help raise young boys into real healthy young men i think you know it's a big question i think i think it starts at home right i think it is within the family unit like it's trying to you know communicate with your kids and you know have the open dialogue and let your kids be emotional let them get stressed let them have a cry you know try not to like suppress that because i think as boys is and even sometimes I've been going to stop crying, stop crying.

44:03So actually, no, don't say that. Like let him have his cry and then we can have a talk in a moment. Let him get it all out sort of thing. I suppose that default of like stop whinging, stop crying. It's like there's a reason he's crying. Like let him kind of process that emotion and then you can learn to, I suppose, regulate and not suppress those emotions. But, you know, I'm very sensitive and I see it in my kids. They're also very sensitive. And so I think maybe that is something that is modeled, but also is in their nature as well um but i think i just think talking is the most powerful thing right talking to a child about how they feel talking to them about their their body image uh you know are they watching things on their phone or are they consuming things that have affected their view on the world and trying to get it out before it bottles up inside them sort of thing i think that's a big issue facing young people that they're consuming stuff and being influenced by people that documentary was was really eye-opening because you realize the impact it's having on other people but it's all just clicks for clicks to make money like and they're just one percent of people that are like monetizing that type of content but actually it's really important that you you help your children understand that the stuff they consume it literally affects them forever like if you're watching if you're watching things at a young age that affect your self confidence in your body for example you have it for life and so like you know trying to I know it's hard with phones because it's like so hard to monitor isn't it I'm not at that point yet where my kids have got screens and phones and stuff.

45:22So I'm not having to deal with that challenge in itself. But I think it starts at home. And then obviously schools are another big influence in that. I don't know what the government are going to do. I mean, the tech companies are so powerful. And they tried to do this new social media ban on the 16s. And they all just said, no, right? I don't know why. Can't get my head around that. But I think there's an awareness now with parents that we know that we can't just offload our parents into our iPads and iPhones and that we need to be more present in our lives. So I think there will be a kind of a sort of revolution towards like going back to more screen free childhoods, you know, getting kids out playing again and getting them socializing because these are the things that are important for your development.

46:01You know, you can't you can't get it all from a screen and from an iPhone and a smart device. But, yeah, I think I think just being being a loving parent is probably the most important thing. Like I said, my mom and dad had their issues and it was crazy what was going on in their heads, but they loved us unconditionally. and that is why I'm here today because if I hadn't had that love I would have probably ended up with some other addiction I would have probably ended up numbing myself through something you know so I think just loving your kids and being there for them is the most powerful thing you can do for them.

46:34What do you think about the paternity leave system in the UK because we have the worst paternity benefit in Europe most dads take two weeks off when their child is born one in four don't take any time off at all because they can't afford it and Elliot and I have been doing a big push for the last few years to try and potentially have increased to six weeks at 90 % of salary which we think is the bare minimum it should be do you agree with that yeah of course listen it's horrific that people have to go back to like work my little brother's a landscape garden he's self-employed you know he had a few weeks off but he's you know he's back again and it's just this thing of like at a time when you want to be with your child bonding or supporting your partner through that like you know you get you get torn apart the family's getting stretched apart right because now both parents having to work both parents having to like drop their kids off and into nursery and child care to get to work they're even like teachers and things and people that like should have should have time to be with their children it's just it's just it's such a big challenge I don't know what the answer is but of course I you know look at Scandinavian countries they get like a year right I think the men get a year the women get a year something they can take it whenever they want like it's such an important formative time as well for like the bonding and you know to be there but obviously the financial pressures right now of life of cost of living you know with the increase in heat and gas electricity all these things it's like it's it's not easy to you can't just sort of fix it right away it's gonna be a progressive thing isn't it and the money comes from somewhere like is it the employers or is it the government that kind of fund that sort of stuff it would be the government it's currently the government so the government pay 182 pounds a week for two weeks when you take paternity and it's maternity is Yeah, which is pittance, obviously.

48:10And usually the man is the main breadwinner in most families. And maternity leave is six weeks at 90 % of salary. And then the next seven months are paid at£182 a week. And then the last three months, you don't get any paid. So it's to have paternity leave the same as the current maternity leave, where it's six weeks at 90 % of salary. But it will be paid for by the government. So the employer has a responsibility as well, that the employer has a responsibility to also cover some of their salary as well yeah are you talking about are you talking about also are you talking about people on benefits or just anybody that's got a job in the uk anybody that's got a job so if you're self-employed and you're a man in the uk you get no right to any paternity benefit whatsoever at the moment and you only get it if you're employed so self-employed dads tend to just go straight back to work and then of course they're working for themselves so they're working really really hard so they don't They get a chance to bond with their kids and they end up having mental health issues often as a result.

49:09So we want to see paternity leave leveled up so every working dad and second parent can access paternity benefit as six weeks of 90 % of salary, including kindred carers as well. You know, people who... Yeah, of course. No, I 100 % agree with that. And I still think six weeks isn't enough, is it? Like six weeks goes out, it's in a blink of an eye. It's the thing, like, it's the system is so... It's so... it's set up against us isn't it it's like actually at a time you should be with your child you're getting more pressure more financial why more stress and then you argue with your partner and you know you're going to have to work and do double shifts and get extra jobs just to make my ends meet and it's like it's so it's so like it's so it's not it's not thoughtful or consider of the family unit is and if you think like long-term long-term health and well-being of that family will depend on like you know that closest as a unit and yeah you know it's just affecting men and women and it's really i think it's great you're doing that you see pushing it at a government level trying to get like petitioning things signed and stuff yeah there's a prime to leave review that's underway at the moment and it completes in january so this is basically the last chance we'll have in our lifetime to improve paternity leave for dads and if we don't get this passed by january i just don't think there'll be another opportunity so we're we're doing a march in april on the 18th of april and then we've got some other ideas for the rest of the year just to keep the pressure on because without the pressure it just falls off the agenda because it costs them money of course to implement so they'll do it they can not to do it i do totally agree with you and i think that's an amazing thing you're doing and if only people in the government had more like you know just nurturing kind of mindsets and just invested in this thing and thought about the benefits it would have long term you know you know it's just so things are hard at the moment and i'm really and again this is like this another challenge that people face you know you shouldn't have this stress and anxiety around having a baby because you know you're going to be financially in a real bad difficult situation for that first year you know so yeah i hope the march goes well it's a really really awesome thing cheers joe well you've been incredible you've been amazing um you know we've said it so many times that you are genuinely one of the best role models we have here in the UK and I know that comes with a lot of pressure but you know just being yourself you just you just are yourself and that resonates so deeply with me I know so many people listening it will resonate with them so a massive massive thank you for your time for sharing so honestly for being fantastic for doing your work for being a great dad and talking to us so openly about your family it was amazing beautiful to hear you speak like that so thank you so much joe wicks you've been incredible thank you thank you guys i've loved chatting to you and yeah um i think it's wonderful you're doing keep sharing these positive messages it's going to have an impact on people's lives so yeah thanks again cheers joe

52:28We'll see you next time. a good one. Two good coffee creamers. Real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle. In life, growth doesn't happen alone. Family keeps you secure. Coaches maximize your performance. But in business, who is there to help you grow? When Lumen Field wants to power game day experiences for 69 ,000 fans, who makes sure every snap and tap leave the home crowd cheering lumen that's who helping leaders like you grow without throwing pains welcome to the trusted network for ai learn more at lumen.com