Kate Dearden: Day-One Dads, Fair Play & What Comes Next

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1:11Hello and welcome to To Be A Boy with me, Jolie Brearley. And me, Elliot Ray. Today's guest is the Minister responsible for the Employment Rights Act and the Parental Leave Review. She is also the MP for Halifax, the town where I was born and grew up until the age of 14 when I left the Leeds, boo. Minister Durden was elected in 2024 and in 2025 she was appointed Minister for Employment Rights and Consumer Protection. Minister Durden, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me, really lovely to be with you and we're looking forward to chatting. Yeah, brilliant, we've got lots of questions.

1:51We are able to talk about the Employment Rights Act. And as of today, employees are entitled to paternity leave and unpaid parental leave from the first day in a new job. They are also entitled to bereaved partners' paternity leave and stronger protections for workers who report sexual harassment. Statutory sick pay now has no earnings threshold and is available from day one of being sick. Employers are now being encouraged to publish action plans to explain how they will reduce their gender pay gap and support employees through menopause. And finally, a new body has been established to uphold workers' rights called the Fair Work Agency.

2:35So it's been pretty busy in your office, Minister Teartan. First question, could you explain to us the exact changes you have made to paternity leave and unpaid parental leave? Because I'm not sure many people understand the difference between what unpaid parental leave is and the paternity leave changes. Yes, of course. Really happy to. And just to start off by saying I'm so happy that I get to be the minister leading on this really significant piece of work for the government and the country. It will affect so many people's lives and we can touch on that and all the different policies you've just alluded to that we're introducing as of today.

3:14and particularly for unpaid parental leave impacting and benefiting more than 1.5 million working parents to 132 ,000 parents becoming eligible for paternity leave and over 18 million people will be affected by this act in itself so it's a really really brilliant piece of legislation that I'm so proud to be leading on as the minister and for the changes particularly as you mentioned to paternity leave and unpaid parental leave I can walk through kind of the changes we've made and the impact that will have for your listeners and for parents across the country. Parents are already entitled to take 18 weeks of unpaid parental leave for each child and they can take that at any point up to their child's 18th birthday at a maximum of four weeks per calendar year.

4:02Whether it's spending time with your kids in school holidays or whatever, you need to use that leave for it's there. But at the moment, you've got to have worked somewhere for a year before you're eligible. So that's what we're scrapping. So from today, 6th of April, you can take it from that first day in your new role to provide that flexibility. And we're also making paternity leave a day one right. So that's giving fathers and parents so much more flexibility in how they can use it with the shared parental leave. So that's going to help those 1.5 million more parents I mentioned right at the start and those over 30 ,000 dads accessing paternity leave.

4:39So a really, really significant moment. So to clarify on paternity leave, dads and non-birthing parents will still have to have worked for the same employer for at least six months up to the qualifying week, which is 15 weeks before the baby is due, before being eligible for statutory

4:57Kate Dearden:paternity pay. Is that right? yes that's right and being really honest with you we would of course like to go further on pay but we've got to think carefully about the costs the costs involved which is why we've launched the huge parental leave and pay review last year and that's a really important and focused piece of work and i'm absolutely the top of my to-do list along with all the secondary legislation with the employment rights act but it's really important and we've heard so much from colleagues in the house to constituents in my own constituency of Halifax to families across the country and what we've prioritized right now is making these changes to return to leave so that parents can access that guaranteed protective time off with their families as soon as they start a new job and that's a really important step and obviously as you know statutory pay is the legal minimum that employers have to provide and I've met a lot of employers who go above and beyond that and provide even more generous packages and we've heard that throughout the review as well and that's why we are looking at it as a whole in terms of leave and pay to understand what more we can do to support working families in as sustainable way as possible.

6:03Okay great thank you we've got loads of questions on the printed leave review to ask you as you would imagine. Looking at the changes that

6:11Kate Dearden:are coming in today the gender pay gap action plans they're going to become mandatory in 2027 but as of today you're encouraging employers to do gender pay gap action plans and it's for employers who have over 250 employees they have to set one action that they will do to reduce the gender pay gap in their organization and to support employees who are experiencing menopause how will you hold employers accountable thank you for us in this it's a really important part of what we're looking at for our wider make work pay agenda and as you mentioned the action plans will be voluntary for a year starting from this April to give employers that time to understand the new process and we'll cover the menopause support as well as the gender pay gap both really really crucial issues that we need to address so we really encourage employers to participate in the in the voluntary year and I will of course be assessing as much as possible the impact and and the take up of employers because while we of course want to hold them to count we want them to employers to feel accountable and empowered to take that action that will lead to sustainable change in their workplaces and beyond too so it's making sure that it's as meaningful as possible and long-lasting in workplaces and whether you know it's looking at the action plans being published and visible to everyone so they can be held accountable in that way and just see what actions we can take over time as we assess their impact and the take up will be a really important stage and part of this too.

7:43Kate Dearden:Will the Fair Work Agency be involved in that so they will be checking that employees are publishing those action plans? In the immediate term when we set up the Fair Work Agency from this month obviously bringing together those three enforcement bodies looking at the existing remits and responsibilities to make a smooth process for those three agencies coming into one but there's loads of the potential for the agency in terms of enforcement, working with employers that they're aware of, legislation and guidance across all different aspects of the new policies we're introducing. So we'll be working with them really closely and they're obviously really keen to work with businesses to comply with law and make sure that they are working as closely to the guidance and seeking that support if they need it.

8:29If this is a new policy for people, for example, with the gender pay gaps and all the support that we want them to provide with the menopause. So there's lots of potential for the agency to further support employers as it sort of becomes a bit more cemented of the coming months and years bringing those agencies together. But I think it's such a brilliant opportunity to better provide that guidance and clarity to employees and employers, particularly for action plans like this as well. Right, great. Thank you. Let's have a look at some of the changes that because there is so much happening with this act um i am hugely supportive of it i've campaigned hard for like seven of the different changes that are coming in um so yeah there's so there's a lot and the key ones that we want to talk about because of our audience are the stronger flexible

9:20Kate Dearden:working rates enhanced redundancy protections for pregnant workers and those returning from parental leave miscarriage leave restrictions on the use of NDAs and then to exploitative zero hour contracts and extending the tribunal time limit from three months to six months so that you have a longer period to raise a tribunal claim from the point that discrimination occurs that was actually the law that scoffered me when I experienced pregnancy discrimination all of those changes are they going to be in place by april 2027 is that the deadline or is it later in 2027 so we've got the roadmap for all these different policies um on the government website that lists all the changes that are coming um from this year to next so we've really provided that clarity to employers but employees as well are bound when these rights will come in but there's lots of obviously loads of changes that are coming in statutory pay from april a flexible working which we're currently consulting on to the end of April.

10:22I'm really, really keen to hear as many reflections and insights to those and we can pick that up. To NDAs, sort of consulting as soon as we can and then introducing that, giving people time really to make sure they can process and understand the legislation before the interview. So they're all quite staged and staggered and really encourage people to check out our roadmap on our website and it can list all the current consultations that are coming up as well. So it's really clear how you can get involved and share your experiences and shape that legislation too. Brilliant. Yeah. And please do do that.

10:55Kate Dearden:People keep your eye on that as this is a really once in a lifetime opportunity to have your say on laws that will impact you and work. When I was at Pregnant Lensgreed, we did do some campaigning on non-disclosure agreements alongside the board of Zelda Perkins, who I'm sure you know. I'm not silenced. We found that about half a million women had signed non-disclosure agreements due to pregnancy or maternity discrimination, which is a significant number. And it was really damaging their mental health because not only had they experienced this really overt discrimination, they were then dragged and silenced from talking about it to anybody else.

11:31Kate Dearden:And that was really damaging for them. We'll obviously haven't done the consultation on this. And I do appreciate that there's still a way to go before this is written into legislation and the detail is finalised. Do you expect that these changes will ensure that non-disclosure agreements can't be used to hide and bury cases of discrimination and harassment? Well, I want to start by saying thank you to all your campaigning work. I know on so many parts of this legislation, but know how important this is to you and that, you know, being able to work with people like Zelda who are just incredible forces of nature has been such a privilege and as well as my colleague Lou Hay in parliament who's kind of been championing this and working really closely with Zelda so I'm really delighted that it's the focus of the act and will be a really really important bit of legislation when it comes in you know where they're used by employers to silence workers subjected to harassment and discrimination and how we can ensure that we can stop victims from suffering in silence and I've heard so many instances and circumstances that people have been through um and we do know as part of this in some circumstances that some people who who have suffered harassment and discrimination might want that confidentiality as well and we wouldn't want to take that away but that's why the consultation is is really important seeking those those views those different cases and experiences where NDAs between an employer and a worker um about harassment or discrimination um are still valid and conditions they must meet and obviously the list of individuals as well that workers who choose to sign these NDAs will be allowed to speak to.

13:08So the consultation is looking at all those things. But I suppose to your point around backdating and once the NDAs become unenforceable, what kind of we expect to happen and I suppose there are already quite limited reasons why a court might find an NDA as unenforceable, for example, whistleblowing or covering up a crime. As you said, the measures that we're bringing in won't be retrospective, although there could still be those various reasons. And, you know, it wouldn't be right for me to say or suggest what could happen if someone breaks a historic NDA and we'd always encourage anyone to get legal advice first, of course.

13:48But we really do believe in the action of protecting workers against the misuse of NDAs. and where they're being used to cover up relevant harassment and discrimination. And that's a really, really important part of the Act and legislation coming forwards. And we want to make sure that people do have a greater say when they want that confidentiality and know how important that is. And if they do, that better understanding of what they're agreeing to as well. So we'll be working really closely, obviously. Yourselves, Zelda, amazing campaigners in this space through the developments consultation and make sure we are capturing all of that before we do bring in specifics of the legislation.

14:25Great.

14:26Kate Dearden:Okay, thank you. Yeah, I mean, I get so many questions from people saying, when this new law comes in, does it mean I'll be able to break my NDA? So as you're saying, really definitely get legal advice before you consider doing that because the law will not be retrospective.

14:45Kate Dearden:Flexible working, big thing amongst parents and changes that you're bringing in, I think are great and will make a really, really big difference. The consultation is open at the moment. Please do go complete the consultation. It closes on the 30th of April. Could you give us, again, you're obviously consulting, so you haven't crossed the T's and dotted the I's yet, but could you give us a broad outline of what you expect this law to achieve? So we really want to give people the chance to fit work and family life, personal circumstances, people's health conditions, caring responsibilities, parents with young children, greater flexibility when it comes to work.

15:26You know, the world of work has transformed and people's expectations and way of working has too. And, you know, it's only right that legislation keeps pace with that and particularly for flexible working. We know how much it can ultimately change people's lives when it's done properly and when they have that understanding with their employer. So that's why we want to introduce these changes that will require employers to accept flexible working requests unless it's not reasonably feasible. So that's what we're consulting on, introducing what we're calling a reasonableness test, which means that if an employer rejects a request, they'll need to have a good explanation as to why that's reasonable.

16:05So as you say, that consultation is underway on the reforms until the 30th of April. So please, everyone who's listening, get involved and these changes will take place next year too.

16:15Kate Dearden:and it switches it on its head doesn't it i mean what the previous changes to flexible working laws have simply moved the the time at which you can request flexible working but it's still very easy to reject it but this will turn things on its head so that it's actually harder for an employer to reject a request than it is to just say yeah okay that works because they're going to have to document in writing exactly why as you said it doesn't fit the reasonable test and that then could be used potentially in an employment tribunal if the person that is in receipt of the rejection thinks that that hasn't followed the reasonable test so it's I think the I really do feel that this will strengthen people's rights and give them much that many more people will have flexible working requests accepted as a result so thank you for bringing that Lauren thank you for working on it please everybody go and fill in the consultation redundancy protections again something that i worked on for years you have recently completed the consultation on enhanced redundancy protections for those who are pregnant and those who have recently returned from work i'm sure you haven't gone through all of the responses yet and don't have it all finalized um but what these laws will do is strengthen those rights so it is harder to make somebody redundant or push them out of their job during that phase pregnancy until about six months after they return from work what I suppose I really want to understand is how will you measure the impact of that new law how will you know that it's working another great question thank you and yeah really really important piece of legislation area and you're right we closed that consultation earlier this year on the 15th January I think we had nearly 900 responses which was brilliant and thank you to everybody that shared their experiences and views of of how they want this legislation to work and and act and we're currently working through all of those um I suppose through the policy what we want to see in terms of how we measure success is a decrease in the number of dismissals um a decrease in the incidence of pregnancy and maternity discrimination as well and improved employment rates for pregnant women and mothers.

18:35And if we get all those right, I think that is success of this policy. And, you know, when you hear the experiences and stories that have come through the consultation to the women that I've met and the charities and organisations and campaigners in this space, and I know you've been, again, so much too, and thank you, we do really want to protect this cohort who are uniquely vulnerable and at the same time ensuring that they continue to be hired in the workplace and do get those opportunities. So we're currently working through all of the responses that we received that reflect really varied experiences to make sure that no matter what, that this group are protected in the workplace and do have those enhanced rights when we look to dismissal, but that we continue to make sure that they get those opportunities in the workplace as well.

19:27So we'll hopefully be able to say more in due course when we work through all the responses and we get through the fine details of the policy.

19:34Kate Dearden:I mean, the rights for those who are pregnant and those who recently returned in the UK are far weaker than they are in the rest of Europe. So it's really great that you're strengthening these laws. The last government didn't do any research on what was happening in terms of pregnancy and maternity discrimination. the last bit of good research that we have on this is from 2015 when the Equality and Human Rights Commission were commissioned to to to look at this issue and they found that the number of women pushed out of their jobs for getting pregnant or taking maternity leave is 54 ,000 women a year which is a woman every 10 minutes in the UK it's like one in nine pregnant women that get pushed out of their jobs and 77 percent of working mums encounter some form of discrimination and because we didn't have any more research since 2015 which is obviously a very long time ago now we did it ourselves when I was at Pregnant and Scrooge and it was really good data 25 ,000 people responded to the survey and we had we made the data nationally representative so it was good quality research and we found that it increased again to 74 ,000 women every year and when I'm asked why that is I say well it's because very little has changed in the last 10 years there's no the last government did very little to strengthen our rights despite knowing this was a massive issue I believe these new rights will start to reduce pregnancy and maternity discrimination and we asked the prime minister when we interviewed him whether there would be a commitment from the government to track that and to evidence what is actually happening to women in the workforce can you also say that that will be something the government will commit to when we look at this this policy all the legislation and the acts will all have the reviews you know over a number of years to make sure we can measure the impact and effectiveness of them and absolutely this is is in that in that bucket of policy and how we review the effectiveness of it and ultimately the impact it's had and has delivered the intended policy change that we wanted it to um so yes brilliant okay good yay right and let's move on to the parental leave review and potentially which is something elliot and i are kind of obsessed with just a little bit just tiny bit lots of people are it is a much anticipated review is really Again, it's probably, I would say, the last opportunity we have potentially to improve our parental leave rights in the UK.

22:20Elliot and I both campaigned for six weeks paternity leave at 90 % of salary for a number of years. Some research that I did with Centre for Progressive Policy found that if we were to do this, it would decrease the gender pay gap by 4%.

22:34Kate Dearden:and the Joseph Roundtree Foundation estimates that it could add£2.6 billion to the wider economy. And evidence from countries with more generous paternity leave show the really clear benefits. It reduces the motherhood penalty, better maternal, mental and physical health, stronger relationships, improved child development and higher life satisfaction for fathers. So the benefits are just enormous. And it polls really well across the spectrum. No matter who you vote for, it polls really well as something that the British public would really like to see. Given all of the evidence, and I know that you're still doing the review, which is due to conclude in early 2027.

23:23Kate Dearden:How likely is it, do you think, that your government will increase paternity leave and pay? Really glad we're getting to this topic. and big question but it's one that as you can imagine i am asked about a significant amount on in terms of the direction of the review and how important it is and how welcome it is by charities campaigners organizations who have been who've long been campaigning for changes to the system and really recognize it's not being looked at as a whole for for a long period of time which is why we're taking this year to to really digest all the different asks from from different organisations, everything you've just alluded to in terms of the impacts that, Julie, the various policies could have in terms of our labour market, for our economy, for people getting into work and ultimately their finances and the wider economic impacts of so many different aspects of the parental leave and pay review.

24:15My colleagues in Parliament are also really, really passionate and so glad that the government is leading on this. So it's a real opportunity and we completely understand the challenges that many parents face when trying to balance their lives at work and at home and we're on the side of working people and I want going to all the different policies we're doing because but we know that the parental leave system does need to be reviewed including eternity pay so that's why this review is really important in addition to what we've announced today with the unpaid side of things straight away is well what we what we're doing about the wider system and on pay and I really do hear that and hear the desire for us to move at pace on this because it's just not been looked at for such a significant amount of time.

25:02So it's been really brilliant to have so much engagement in this review and obviously there is so much scope when we're looking at all the different entitlements and to be really honest with you even when I'm out with my non-political mates this is the part of my job that I'm most excited about and engage with and hold me to account too. So there is absolutely no escape in this. And you mentioned it, Paul, as well. And it just, it's someone, you know, everybody interacts with this system at some worst stage in their lives, all their family and friends have. So we do really, really understand the need to improve paternity leave and pay.

25:35And this is why it's such a good opportunity for us and we want to get it right. Yeah, I think it will be huge. I speak to dads every day who, they really struggle. You know, they go through this massive, massive life change. They have a couple of weeks off. Sometimes that's in hospital. Sometimes their partner's at a C-section and literally go back to work like nothing's changed. And it's really, really difficult. I think this would be a transformational change to the lives of families. How much is the government looking at what's going on overseas? You know, in Spain, 17 weeks, full pay. Norway, 15 weeks, 100 % pay.

26:12Benefits across the economy to well-being of parents, of children. And through this review, is the government looking at that best practice and what we can take from that? Yes, absolutely. The officials of the department are working flat out on all the evidence that we're hearing from so many people, reflections of experiences abroad too. and you mentioned a couple earlier and to colleagues in the house and conversations I'm having you know we are really kind of taking that step back and looking at best practice elsewhere and the impact and sort of ultimately how it's changed the system and people's lives in different areas of the world so yeah we're really really looking at as broad a scope as possible and I think that's why it is so exciting because that's not been done on such a scale before well for a long time anyway.

27:00And I think self-employed dads are really important in this too and that's part of the review. I'm a self-employed dad myself and when my second came along it was basically taking taking unpaid leave and then losing money because I'm not working as well and so many dads self-employed dads just don't take any leave they literally go back to work straight away. Yeah. So how much is is that a part of the review that you're considering? Yeah so they're absolutely in scope of the parental leave and pay review and really recognise your personal experience of the system and the impact it's had on you and your pay.

27:36And prior to becoming a member of parliament, I worked for a trade union called Community. We had lots of self-employed and freelance members of the union and they always expressed their circumstances and their desire of what they wanted to see in a safety net. So it's something I'm really alive and conscious to in terms of that lack of support and that's why they are in scope of the review. And the impact and experiences of self-employed mums as well with maternity allowance to keep in touch today is really recognise the experiences that the wider self-employed workforce face in the parental leave and pay system and I think that's why it is important that they are included in this.

28:18The University of Bath did some research which finds that including self-employed in paternity provisions

28:25Kate Dearden:could add$3 billion per year to the economy. And the JRF calculated how much it would cost to include the self-employed in paternity provisions, and they found it was$18.9 million per year. So it feels like the economics on this does make sense, including the self-employed in paternity provisions. And, of course, you will have seen the campaigns recently from kinship carers, because they're completely excluded from the parental leave system, which seems really unfair considering they save the government £4 billion per year. I have a friend who's a kinship carer and she's had to leave her job because it's just become so difficult and now they're in a real mess financially.

29:13Kate Dearden:So again, you know, self-employed kinship carers, the system really locks so many people out of it. talking about mothers because we have a lot of mothers who listen to the podcast particularly mothers of sons like me and statutory maternity pay is now worth less than half the minimum wage I think it adds up to about$4.99 an hour when you break it down and three quarters of mothers rely on debt just to get through maternity leave I'm sure you will know that cost is cited as the main reason why women are not having children, why we have a baby crisis. We came, we've seen the birth rate drop significantly and that poses a risk for our future economy.