Raising Boys in a Digital World with Michele Borba

0:00Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Crocs store today. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes.

0:50Hello and welcome back to To Be a Boy with me, Jolie Braley. And me, Elliot Ray. We really would love you to click subscribe. I know we keep saying that but it really does help us. Maybe a little like as well just to show that you're giving us a good thumbs up. You know it just makes us feel good. Thank you very much. Boys today are more stressed, depressed and lonely than previous generations. The pressure to succeed, the high expectations and exposure to the online world is having a negative impact on boys' development. Boys are falling behind at school, have high levels of depression and suicidal ideation and are struggling with relationships.

1:29So what is behind all of this and what can we do as parents to help? Well today we have an incredible guest and expert here to help unpack this all. Dr Michelle Bourba is an internationally renowned educator, award-winning author and parenting child expert. Dr Bourba is an NBC contributor who has appeared over 150 times on the Today Show and countless shows including Dr. Phil and CNN. Her work is featured in publications such as Time, Washington Post and the New York Times. She is the award-winning author of over 24 books translated into 19 languages including her latest book, Thrivers, Surprising Reasons Why Some Kids Struggle and Others Shine.

2:12Dr. Borba is a former classroom and special education teacher with a wide range of teaching experience including working in a private practice with children with learning and emotional disabilities. She lives in sunny Palm Springs, California with her husband and three grown sons. So Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today. You've done so much work professionally but also you are the mother of three sons so you are pretty much the perfect guest for To Be A Boy podcast. So let's get straight into it Michelle. I'll be really interested just to hear your overall reflections on boys today through your work.

2:49What would you say are the biggest challenges that boys are facing today? Well, first of all, they're suffering in silence. And I thank you and I commend you for doing this because we get all the research about the girls, but we fail to realize is that boys' suicide rates are skyrocketing. So far more than ever. The second thing I'm really concerned about is the changes that you mentioned. I'm seeing them and boys themselves are telling me they're far more risk adverse. We can't read each other like we used to. And I think that if they suffer in silence, what we need to do is first recognize it, then open up the opportunities so that we can tune into them.

3:28We can listen to them when we give them safe spaces that they can talk. When I do focus groups with boys, and I've done over 500 of them all across the world. In fact, I just did one in the UAE. And they have the same concerns everywhere in the world. The one that I'm really worried about is, again, the risk aversion, they're retreating. They're retreating more into a virtual space as opposed to a real space. And it just gives us the opportunity to say something's going on. Let's read them differently, but let's make sure that we reach out for them and don't react, but respond. What you said there around retreating onto the online space, that's a massive concern for parents.

4:12You know, their children spending the summer holidays in their room on their computer games and you think, oh, they're safe there inside. But actually, we don't know what's going on there. In terms of biggest challenges for parents of boys, what would you say those are right now? I think the thing that we need to keep in mind is that there's a huge cultural shift that's impacting not only our sons, but also the parents. We're seeing, for instance, that they're far more risk, therefore really having a problem in terms of their own depression rates, their own suicide rates, their own mental stress, and it's filtering over to the kids.

4:47So if we stay calmer ourselves, that's the first thing that we can do to be able to help our sons. And when we listen to them, we could talk about all of that. And, well, because boys have told us we need to listen a little bit differently, not face to face with the eye contact. act. But the most amazing thing is they said, just sit side by side. And parents are really concerned about, but I don't know what to say to them. Probably the best thing one son, a teen, told me is they don't have to say anything sometimes. If they just sit next to me and rub my back and just become themselves, that's going to help me.

5:22So there's some interesting things that boys are telling us that we may not be listening enough and reading them. So we respond. And you said you did a workshop in UAE. Incredible. What would you say? Are there differences across the world? Like you're in America, we're in the UK, Middle East. Are there differences of what boys are experiencing? Are you finding there's similarities with this generation? I think there's real similarities. I've also worked in Germany. I'm getting impact in terms of what I'm hearing from other countries across the world. In terms of middle class, more technologically driven countries, there is marked similarities in terms of anxiety rates going up, stress going up.

6:04I think a lot of times what we're not doing is, in terms of science, making sure that we're looking at all populations of kids everywhere. But the fascinating thing is we're also seeing a marked impact in affluent areas. So as affluence goes up, depression rates are going up. It isn't like that we're helping them because we're richer, but we may not be helping them because we're not calmer. What do you think is causing it though, Michelle? Sorry, that's quite a big question. But I mean, we can all see it and feel it, I think. And we all know that our children are gravitating towards screens and the internet and we're nervous about it.

6:47But is it just that? Is that what it, do you think it's living life in a digital world more than a real life world that's causing it? Or is there more to it than that? I love the question because I think the first thing that the science, I think if we look at psychologists and the studies that they're doing, is that you're more likely to, the culture you're being raised in is more likely to impact you than any other form like your DNA or anything else. Now we look at the day, what the heck is going on with the culture? It's a seismic shift and it certainly isn't just the smartphone that's impacting our children.

7:24It's a more accelerated world. It's not a calmer world. Boys say they're very concerned about the visual images that they're getting. It's more graphic. It's more disturbing. It's a more uncertain world. And you put all of those together. Plus, we have high expectations for our kids at earlier ages. And one of the things that boys say is they don't want to let us down. They love us to death, but they don't want to disappoint us. And so a lot of times they also are more likely to internalize those feelings, But teachers would say we're seeing a marked change also in their behavior. They're more likely to externalize it in terms of the anger and the outbursts and not being able to calm down.

8:07Why? Because we may not be giving them coping strategies. So that's a lot to do to just digress here and go, okay, but what's causing it? First, it's a different culture we're raising our children in. second of all we the parents need to recognize that so that we respond differently and help our kids so they all thrive and i think it's so interesting what you said there around middle class this isn't just a problem for working class lower income families actually you're seeing this happening more and more in people who have high attainment and i think education is a massive thing now we live in an area i live in an area now where there are some really good schools but you have to take exams to get into those schools they're called 11 plus exams and kids at 10 years old are put under a lot of pressure to you know achieve these scores to get into these supposedly good schools um let's talk about kind of education and the attainment and pressure are you finding that is having an impact on on boys specifically um and what would you say the impact is if there is an impact in relation to the link between higher expectations and maybe mental health and isolation and loneliness?

9:19Well, thank you, because I definitely am seeing that. One of the things we are also seeing is a new trend universally across more educated nations, and that is boys aren't graduating as much. The second thing is they're dropping out more. The third thing is their grades are going down. Why? We look at that because we're giving them all what we think is the same expectations and the same love and the same warmth, but we may not be because when attention spans goes down, when sleep is deprived, they also lose that ability to attend. And those are also happening. By the way, we're also letting our boys not go outside and just run, just play, just be able to tumble.

10:00And the more they do that, you put all those factors together. That's what a boy needs in order to just let it down. Many of the boys are telling me that one of the things that's really impacting them is they just don't have balance anymore. I said, what do you mean you don't have balance? I'm thinking like a trampoline. He goes, you know, the stuff that helps you cope. I said, well, what helps you cope? And he said, well, do you think ukulele is a good enough passion to have as a kid? I said, do you like ukulele? He says, I love ukulele. Well, why aren't you playing it? I said, because my dad doesn't think it's a high enough expectation for my resume.

10:35So maybe the first thing is each kid is going to be different, boy or girl. but one of the main things we've got to do is figure out what's going to help our kids be able to relax or find that passion. You've got one of the best studies that ever came out. Thank you, UK. But it looked at 50 ,000 people across cultures and 400 different studies. Can we improve mental health? And they looked at people who had good mental health, poor mental health, and physical challenges. And they found something that I think is the takeaway for every parent worldwide. Yeah, we can. We can improve anybody's mental health if the person finds what works for them.

11:17And they do the same thing one, two, three minutes a day. If you keep doing the same thing and it's a healthy alternative, not go do gaming all day long if it's not healthy, but maybe it's ukulele. Maybe it's one kid told me it's listening to Mozart. I said, listening to Mozart? How'd you figure that out. He said, my mom was really crafty. She keeps playing different kinds of music over the loudspeaker system. Every time Mozart comes in, my whole body decompresses. I said, so what'd you do? He said, I loaded my iPad up with Mozart. Brilliant. Are we helping each kid find that Mozart or find that ukulele?

11:55Or one kid would say, I just go down and shoot in baskets. They're not having those opportunities to do that. Back to your question on education, because we put so much into, you got to do this, this, this, this, this, that we're not finding what they say is the balance just to every once in a while, get back to decompressing and, and lowering the stress. Hey, Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know, back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear, step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it. Style it. Make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up.

12:35It shows off. First day fits handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest croc store today. Propel Fitness Water with Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade Electrolytes.

13:05Hey, Elliot here. As you may know, as well as co-hosting this lovely podcast, I also run Parenting Out Loud, the workplace culture change program that supports dads to be loud and proud about their caring responsibilities at work and equal parents at home. Well, I have some exciting news. In September, we are hosting the UK's first ever Working Dad Summit. Sponsored by Universal Music Group UK, the one-day online event will bring together fathers, thought leaders, employers and change makers to explore what it really means to be a dad in today's world and how we can create workplace environments where dads can parent loudly.

13:45expect real stories bold conversations and practical solutions so whether you are a dad an employer HR leader or dad advocate this summit is for anyone who believes in equal parenting and gender equality at work and at home 23rd of September online 1pm to 5pm completely free so register on workingdadsummit.com and join the community over on LinkedIn just search for parenting out loud right back to the show

14:23i think you know the statistics that you've spoken about in regards to loneliness and suicidal ideation and depression and it really makes me think as parents like do we have do you think we have significant kind of impact on improving that like do you do you think we can help and how much can we? I'm hoping you're going to say yes. Oh, we are a lot more powerful than we give ourselves credit for. Unbelievable. And research confirms it. In fact, they found that, yeah, boys, one study, this is Yale, and I love it because, oh, surprise, surprise, boys and girls respond differently to emotions. But they found that if we are just with our sons and create a comfortable space, and it doesn't mean we need to talk, but just be there responding and affirming them, they actually, the boy-girl divide in emotions kind of levels out because now they have a space to be able to share what they have to say, but we got to find that space.

15:28And once again, back to what one of those boys told me, just be there. If you can't say anything, just rub my back, but let me know that it's going to be okay. Do you think it comes differently if it's a mother that is doing that than a father. Do you think they want to have different conversations with people of the same gender as them? I love that concept. Back to the boys. If you feel comfortable with your mom or your dad, and you know that whatever you say, it's going to be not judged. And it starts at an earlier age. We're going to have, you know, don't have the sex starting, have the sex talk at age 13, but start when they're a much, much earlier level that it's okay, they're going to do fine.

16:10But one of the things that is disturbing about our sons and across the board, it also is that fathers are playing a less important role, even though they're in more impactful. When I say less important role, we're seeing an absence of them. So there's more single parents. And that means that sometimes moms are going to feel the pressure. Jolie, it makes no difference. It's just being there for our kids. And one of the most profound things that one dad told me is I just didn't know how to talk to him. He just wasn't responding to me, but I refused to give up. So I started just doing something just really simple.

16:49This is called the simple thing. And back to what Elliot just said, I started writing a post-it note and putting on his bed on his pillow. And I kept writing post-it notes every day, just put it on his pillow. It's going to be okay. Hey, how are you doing? I love you. He never said anything to me, but I refused to give up on the post-it notes. And then one day I couldn't figure out where my belt was. And I realized, oh, I bet you he borrowed it and he wasn't there. Now he's 13. The kid is 13. I went into his room. I still get teary-eyed when I think about this. I went into his room. I'm looking all over for the belt.

17:19I look under his bed and I found this box and it scared the pants off of me. What the heck is it in this box? I'm thinking the worst of the worst. I opened it up and it's all the post-it notes. They'd been neatly saved. When he came home that day, I had the box in my lap. I opened it up and he started to cry. He said, you know, I know that you and mom and dad are having a tough time, but I always thought I was the one that caused your divorce. And it was that simple thing of finding a way to stay connected with your son. And it was what the father did was the post-it. It's amazing. Do you know what?

17:57My wife actually writes a note for my daughter every day to take to school. And it's like words of affirmation. you can do it you're doing great we love you we're proud of you you know and we didn't know if she was reading it or not to be honest until the one day my wife forgot to do the note and she came up from school she was like where's my note i didn't get my note today in my lunchbox oh i love that we were like are you actually reading those now think about that elliot because there's probably no more than one to three minutes a day that your wife is writing the note sometimes we think we have to pack it through of oh my gosh how am i going to be spending hours and hours having these important things to be able to help my kid turn out the way they are.

18:37What kids say they want is certainty. They want the stability. They want the repeat. And that's what they're not getting in this world. And sometimes it may be as simple as a note. I think back to what I just said, one of the other biggest concerns I see of our sons is their lack of agency, which is going to help them become what I would call a thriver. It's the key to resilience and being able to figure out, I can do this. I got this. And one of the other things about today's parenting is it seems like we're snow plowing them too much. We're still doing too much for them. And the big thing that would help them be able to stand up and have that confidence, which is tanking, by the way, in our sons, is slowly backtracking so that they be able to say, you can do it.

19:24You got this. it's that balance between being present being there sharing time sharing moments but also knowing when to let them go when to back off and yeah because we're we're seeing a regression in our sons of growing up they're not growing up or reaching adolescence as they used to or adulthood as they used to and we look at that and say why one of the big things is we may be doing too much So the simplest thing, doing too much for them, is to watch your footwork. Meaning, are you always there doing for the kid? Or are you maybe stepping back a little bit, showing him how to do it? Like how to, and I'm talking, do the microwave.

20:08You know, make the bed. Put your, if you're always missing your homework, how about putting it every day by the front door as you walk in, but not doing it for the kid. One task at a time. You show whatever the task is. I don't care what the task is. One kid told me he was on his way to Yale, but he was scared to death. I said, because of Yale, he does. No, I'm going to flunk life. I don't know how to do anything. He didn't know how to set my checkbook. So maybe it's show the task to your child doing it together. Then step back and say, now you show me so that you know that he can do it by himself.

20:45I don't care what age he is. And then say, once he's got it, you got it. Now you're on your own and you can do it. What will happen is slowly they develop the agency of that resilient, thriving ability. There was a debate on the radio the other day where they were saying, if your child goes to school and forgets their homework and then calls you and says, more and more, dad, will you please bring my homework to school? Do you take it? Is it the right thing to do to then help them out and take the homework to school? And lots of people are calling in saying, of course it is. And lots of people calling in saying, no, they need to know there are consequences to their actions.

21:25You cannot keep bailing them out. So you have to let them get into trouble for not taking their homework. Yeah. Because then that's the only way they'll learn. Would you agree with that, Michelle? I love there was one word you said there that was really good. If you keep doing it. So the key is to all of that. My answer would be, is there a pattern? Are you seeing that that kid is relying on you and oh my gosh, you're spending all the time always driving the homework or is this one time out of the blue and the kid has spent hours on that darn homework and you know that it really is important to him.

21:58I'd say, yeah, sure. This is the moment that you realize, hey, you did it and I'm there for you. But always, always intervening and always being the one that's giving him the answers or being there so that he sees it and relies on you creates a dependent kid and that's not going to be a child that's going to be able to stand up for himself and be able to handle life on his own and that's the goal of parenting isn't it yeah it's some research around part-time work and you know when i was growing up i did a paper round as soon as i had an i number my dad was like you're getting in the supermarket right you're working so i did all the jobs factory work everything before I went to university and I really when I look back now as a parent I have to give my parents a lot of props for kind of the work rate they gave to me and the kind of really instilled values of hard work and how that has just helped me in my life and what hard work means I read a statistic the other day saying there's so many less children now or young people who have part-time jobs before they go into higher education I think in the UK it used to be about 41 % maybe 20 years ago.

23:05Now it's around 18. I'll double check that. But it's around that kind of statistic. Do you think that is having an impact in regards to what you were saying there? We're not growing up. Young people, especially boys maybe, are not growing up. And so they're not entering the world as fully formed people who are able to look after themselves as well as achieve educationally as well. Oh, I love that. And I love what your parents did and yay for them. because whether it's work that you did, like the paper route, or whether it's a chore at home that here's the things I expect you to do, kids aren't doing chores like they used to either.

23:42So it's finding something so they realize you're responsible for it. And what happens is they develop that at that agency. I think there's no one answer for it. We're finding the other thing that's really helpful for kids is by the end of high school, not necessarily going to college, but finding a gap year so that you are there on your own and you can do it. Every kid is different. Isn't that a surprise? It's like Russian roulette on what you get with the kid because their temperaments are going to be different. So your job as the parent, I think, is one of the most critical things is to figure out who your child is, who that one is.

24:18I got three boys. Each one's different. Who is that kid? And what does that kid thrive, need to thrive and follow the path of your kid? Here's an example on that one. I was talking to a dad. I love this story because he said, I got two boys. They're great kids. And they're different as night and day. No surprise. One of them is really going to be into tech. He's just amazing at high school. He's clearly going into electronics. And that's the kind of thing that I nurture. And I made sure he's got some extra time that he can do that. My other son, he's in middle school. And I'm really worried about him.

24:55He's smart as heck. But all he talks about is wolves. middle school kid talking about wolves. You know, you get a little scary about the wolf concept. It's like, what the heck is this? I think you should be a lawyer like me, but doggone it. All he does is talk about wolves. So one day I said, okay, I'm going to get a gun. We're going to go to a park and I'm going to have him talk to the park ranger. So I don't feel so darn guilty. And he said, you can't believe what happened. I'm sitting there listening to my kid, talk to the park ranger correct him about the statistics about wolves he knew more about wolves than the park ranger did and i'm sitting there going wow did i blow this one i completely missed on who my kid is he's not going into law i'm changing my dynamics as biology and science 101 so sometimes we forget to be the talent scout of who our kid really is i do you know how much i love that I love that so much I feel like and I've been talking to about this with my friends sometimes is that partly what our parents weren't able to do and I'm speaking from you know a black man who had immigrant parents not just me but I think our generation is that they were in some way so busy just trying to provide and you know get used to the country and whatnot they weren't necessarily able to do the talent scouting thing and be able to pick out oh actually you're quite good at this this is how you could maybe make a career out of that you know and it was more just do your do your work right do your maths in english and get your grades and then you'll figure out afterwards and i think what you just said there is incredible and it does force us to actually spend that time to know our kids to understand them and then adapt to them i had a question about parenting styles i've been reading quite a lot about parenting styles and there's this whole concept about gentle parenting which is you know less about consequences um maybe jolie there we're talking about your example it's about actually going to to deliver the homework every time um it's less boundaries but no no consequences um very much leaning into feelings and and how they're doing and then looking at more authoritative parenting which does also have boundaries but also comes with a bit more consequence like i'm not going to save you when you forget your homework I guess based on what you've said, is it about there's not one style that works completely, different children might need different approaches, or do you think overall there is a style that you think tends to result in better outcomes?

27:24The first thing, the footnote is, we always need to figure out who our kid is, what their strengths are. We can talk about that a little later. But parenting styles. Research has been doing this for so long. I mean, they've been looking at going in and 50 hours on each family, watching them, which kind of parenting style works. But now they've also done it one more. Lauren Steinberg just did the same research, but he upped it. He looked at 20 ,000 teens in terms of surveys. And he found, regardless of where you live, authoritative parenting, which is, think about a plane landing at night on a runway strip.

28:03You hope there's lights on both sides so the plane can land. That's the same with good parenting. It's a balance between firm and fair. And you always have to have those expectations that match the kid. But there always has to be, yeah, the consequence. When you get too gentle, it makes the balance go like this. Or you get too firm, it goes like this. But what happens is what every parent wants, the confident, healthy, happy kid, you're more likely to get the healthy, happy kid with that balance. So it's that firm and fair concept. And I think that's absolutely essential to keep in mind. Once again, we do make a difference.

28:43We matter if we look at, and maybe it's a step back and analyze ourselves. We're so quick to always look at the kid. And sometimes what we don't look is turning and going, well, how am I responding? What am I doing on a day-to-day balance? Do I need to go one step more this way or this way? And that's a key life because the other thing back to the wolves story and the firm and fair both it in, what the father did that was powerful answers the question that every parent wants. When you ask a parent, what do you hope for your child? I want them to be healthy and happy. Okay. The concept of really raising a child who's happy is to find their passion.