The intelligent and compassionate education of Boys with Richard Pomfrett

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1:01Today's podcast episode is sponsored by KORU Kids. Welcome back to the To Be A Boy podcast with me, Elliot Ray. And me, Jolie Braley. So today we are diving into a challenge that so many parents, teachers and mentors know all too well. Engaging boys as they enter those tricky teenage years. One minute they're chatty and open, the next it feels like you're losing them to silence and screams. I know this all too well. growing up I was that boy. So in this episode we are joined by Richard Pomfret, the founder of Boys to Men, an organization built on a powerful belief that every young person has the potential to become a role model.

1:41Through the tailored programs in primary and secondary schools, Boys to Men helps boys to navigate gender stereotypes, societal expectations and the emotional challenges that often come with growing up. Richard will share tried and tested techniques for connecting with boys, building trust and keeping communication alive, especially at the age when many adults start to feel shut out. So if you're a parent, a teacher, a mentor, or anyone who cares about raising good men, this is a conversation for you. Richard, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. Really great to be here. And I'll just start off by saying I'm a big fan.

2:18I've been watching your show from day one. So that's a day one fan. Super excited to be here. Love that. Love that energy. So let's start with your journey then. How did you get into working with boys and young men and going into schools and doing your programs? So it's been a bit of a journey. Not the most traditional journey into working with schools or young people in schools. That journey started, I'm going to show my age now, over 25 years ago. And that was through working with young people through teaching martial arts. I used to be a martial arts instructor and lots of people that I used to teach, the young people were boys.

2:55And then that led me into working with young people in schools. And I think probably now coming up to about 15 years, for the last 15 years, I've been working with young people directly in schools through an organization that I run called the Stay Safe Initiative. And we're a community interest company that supports young people in a few areas. we do lots of work and again primary and secondary and higher education we do lots of work with young people surrounding issues connected to bullying and helping them to have positive friendships and relationships we deliver peer-to-peer mentoring training in schools with young people as well and I also spend lots of time with young people again of all ages exploring the digital world so helping them to be safe from exploitation and other online harms but also to help them have positive positive online lives and to thrive in that part of their world the digital world and the work that I now do and I still do all that work but the the work that I now do specifically with boys through boys to men is really come off the back of that work with young people in schools and that really started post-COVID when I was in schools talking to boys and young men about online influencer culture, tying in with the rise of people like Andrew Tate and others like that.

4:29It was through them conversations that really opened up to me, really on a personal level, that actually, you know, there's a little bit more going on with boys than just helping them to be, to think critically about the online world and they need area they need support in lots of other areas so I developed Boys to Men and and it's a program to help them think critically about that aspect of their life the online world but it's also to help them help them think about who they are and it's about creating safe spaces for them to think about what kind of men they want to be so yeah that's that's a 25 year journey encapsulated into a few minutes love that and You said you're showing your age.

5:10You look young for your age. I'm guessing you're probably our age. I'm probably older than both of you. I'm going to say I'm definitely. Yeah, I'm in my 50s. I'm in my 50s. You're in your 50s. I am, yes. No, you're lying. I am definitely not. 1973. You could do the maths. It's all those martial arts.

5:27Richard Pomfrett:It's kept me young. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah. I've had a few broken noses along the way, but yeah, maybe it's a little bit of a healthy lifestyle. well so um so you said you speak to a lot of boys around the influences of the online world how do you feel like the online world is influencing boys what what change have you seen especially like maybe post-covid um i mean boys have lots of challenges and i think it's probably a good opportunity to start right at the start obviously lots of them challenges people assume they are connected to the online world and that can sometimes make people think that everything connected to online world is bad and all the issues that young people are facing are connected to that part of their life there is an influence there obviously and um i think with boys it's important to say that you know all boys are different they all have their own backstory story they will all have their own different concerns and individual concerns and challenges that will will impact them first of all through conversations with boys and this can actually be quite young is having issues connected to their future so pressure to succeed be financially stable and secure even having conversations with boys at a young age about how they're meant to buy a car buy a house even support a family one day many having that expectation that they um they need to play that provider role for example and again even at a very young age they're thinking what kind of age do you think they're thinking that they're thinking that from primary school so yeah absolutely yeah that that comes up in primary school and obviously it it escalates as they get closer through secondary school and and and higher education again that that they're things that get talked about more but yeah they're talking about that in primary school yeah because we talk about the things that I do an activity with them and it's it's about getting them to express um what they like about being a boy or what they like what they think is to come about being a man like the good bits uh and with that they always say well I'm looking forward to having a car I'm looking forward to having a house I'm looking forward to getting a good job and earning money.

7:52And that's all great. And we talk about that. But then the flip side of that question is, what do you think is quite difficult or quite hard? And there's usually two angles depending on their age to that. It's usually what do you find hard now? So pulling from their lived experience, and obviously, the older they get, they'll have a little bit more lived experience. So what do you think are quite difficult being a boy or a young man in today's world so we get to hear what they say uh but also we get them to look into the future and you know what do you think is difficult to come so all them positive things they mentioned about having a car getting a house and you know all of them things again that comes back into the conversation well actually that's really hard you know how am I going to do that how am I going to afford to have these things how how am I going how am I going to afford to support a family um and again lots of them even at that young age when you unpick that with them it's like well it's all down to me you know they they still feel that they they need to be you know not a provider and and and share an equal role it's it's it's that stereotypical breadwinner you know i've got to be the one to provide and yeah that that comes early i find that so fascinating because in year six there's no way I was thinking about providing for a family I'm like football I want the new football trainers yeah absolutely yeah when's the summer holidays coming because I want to go and ride my bike like that was the extent of my problems I was not thinking about providing for a family until I was probably after university to be honest yeah and in one way I kind of feel like I have such mixed feelings because I feel like the school education system doesn't prepare people young people for the real world so it's really good to be having conversations about the real world and money and taxes and work that's that's really really good but on the flip side it's quite sad as well very sad because yeah can't we let children be children anymore like can't we just let them not worry about big grown-up adult things that come with stress and and pressure yeah i probably should apply a bit of context here so i i don't want your listeners to think that all young people especially at that young age are these are things that are on their mind all the time that they're not most of them are thinking about the things that you mentioned earlier you know what am i going to get for christmas or where am i going to get the new pair of night air jordans or whatever uh so you know and uh i need to i need to get better at fortnight so So these are things that are not obviously on their mind all the time.

10:26But the reason why I share them is when you give them that opportunity and that space to have that thought process. And, you know, because, you know, if you want to help young people, we need to hear from them. We need to get to the bottom of what are these concerns? And it's at that time when they have that opportunity to actually think about it. They're the things that are coming up. So they're in there. But again, I don't want everyone to start thinking, oh, they're all panicking about it. it's just given that opportunity to that's when these come into the conversation obviously

10:55Richard Pomfrett:i've got two boys who are nine and 12 and the 12 year old i mean they don't ever talk about anything like this but i did once ask the 12 year old if he ever if he wanted children ever and he sat and he thought about it for a bit and then he went i'll let the wife decide yeah i've done that three times and the answer was yes yeah yeah the third one was a little the third one it took me a while to say yes but yeah i got i got she she got the answer in the end but it's funny isn't it that that's how that was the first thing that occurred to him i just found that quite interesting that it wasn't about his choice he'd already thought right i'll i need to get a wife and then she'll make those decisions and I'll make you tell me when and I thought that was such a traditional almost way of looking at things when the rest of his life probably isn't very traditional but um and I guess there are more families in poverty than there ever have been before so there are more kids that are seeing their parents struggle so they're thinking well how on earth am I ever going to do it if my parents can't do it so I guess it's kind of inevitable that kids worry about that and also you know when we we talked a little bit about the online world and you know and again this is this is exaggerated by what they see online as well you know the people that they follow you know when you look at the sort of like the hyper masculine images and portrayals of masculinity you know that's all about tying tying like being a successful man to wealth and all of these things you know then you know body image all these things come up with young people and that was something that that that we wasn't exposed to when we was young so again with them it's it's not just about oh this is how you have to be a man again it's it's all tied into where you've got to also fill these categories you know you've got to you've got to be successful you've got to earn money you've got to provide and again that just adds this extra layer of pressure and and in some cases confusion for for young people so like how you know that's something that they will say to me how do i do it how am i meant to do that and that's a tricky conversation but the good thing about having that conversation is you can then start to guide them say well actually do you need to do that yeah you don't actually need to you know uh you can take that pressure away the 666 for them and like all of that they aspire to it six pack six six figure salary six foot tall penis oh yeah that's the fourth one so generally so that could be the fourth so the ones that come up that generally are you've got to be six foot tall or you know which i'm 5 '11 so already i'm disqualified you're out so i'm not mad uh you gotta have a six fill six figure salary again i'm disqualified there and the last one uh you got to have six pack abs uh i've gone past that now and i used to but not anymore have i made up the six inch so that that's something no you haven't made it up sometimes that comes into the equation as well uh penis size may come into it but generally it's it's them first three but again you can start to apply that to lots of other things but yeah but it we're making a joke about it but it's you know these are the messages that they are consuming and thinking well how am i going to and and when you need the first two the six foot tall and the six pack abs and and all this sort of thing you know I I have young boys you know in primary you know then they haven't even reached puberty yet and they're they're saying you know body image is a is a big thing that comes into the conversation and they're saying like I'm not big enough uh how am I going to be am I going to be big enough and not in the pants department we're talking muscles and physique but it's like they they they haven't even developed into young adults yet and they're thinking they've got to be you know jacked and ripped and and it's like wow you know it's it's a concern but it makes me so sad you know because also i just lacks context around a six-figure salary is not necessarily gonna make you happy you know being six foot tall it might be nice but it's not gonna determine it's not gonna determine your outcomes and your happiness and your fulfillment in life you know it's just like I get you see online you see these images you see success as very material monetary based things but when you become an adult you understand of course it's nice to have money everyone loves money great cool but that doesn't determine the quality of your life and it's so good that you know you can go into those schools and have conversations about wider things as well with fulfillment and relationships and happiness and and and that that sort of stuff at the beginning of the podcast in introduction I spoke about a lot of parents say their boys particularly seem to um go away from them withdraw from them a little bit and especially when they reach teenage years which I guess is kind of normal has probably happened for generations and maybe we shouldn't worry too much about it because that is a natural part of growing up but I guess in previous generations we didn't have all these external factors that those young boys and girls are turning to as alternatives so what's your reflections on on that tricky part of life do you think that's just normal when we shouldn't worry too much about it or do you feel like we should be trying harder than maybe previous generations to stay close I think it's I think the first part I think it is quite normal I mean that's probably a question for like a child psychologist I'm probably not the best person to answer it but uh i'm a man uh and i've got i've got three i was gonna say children but they're now they're adults so i've got three adults at home two of them are men and how are they they're 24 and 21 okay uh my two boys they're my oldest and i've got a 16 year old daughter um so i've certainly you know i've lived that i've experienced that myself where um they reach their teenage years and they start to separate.

16:59I think that's quite normal to some degree. When they get to that age, they're trying to work out who they are. They're trying to work out who they want to become and they're starting to feel like they need to be a little bit more independent. And I think to feel like they're gaining that independence, they do naturally separate a little bit, which is, I think, quite normal. I think one thing that makes it a little bit more difficult now is that, again, the online world is a part of their life. So that can be an environment where parents feel completely shut out of the conversation, you know, that they're communicating online.

17:36And again, really important to say that is not always a dark place. That is a very, can be a very positive part of their life is how they interact with their friends, you know, gaming, communicating. That's really positive. But for a parent, that can make them feel like they're really pushed away from that area because they're not in there with them so I think that's that adds an extra layer like you know they're not even communicating with us they're online all the time what they're doing they don't even want to talk to me um so I think it is normal but that just means that we may just need to change our approach sometimes in in how we get them to communicate with us and open up with us I would love to know more about that just because

18:22Richard Pomfrett:I mean, my 12-year-old now has a phone and he's so addicted to it. And it's not that I'm worried about what he's doing online. I'm not actually. I thought that's what I would be worried about. What I'm bothered about is he's just on it constantly. And, you know, we drive. I drive him to rugby and he just sits on his phone and doesn't speak to me. He gets back. He's not joined any clubs at school. He stopped doing his clubs at school. He comes back and he sits on his phone and he's so addicted to it. And I feel like he's missing out on doing other activities because he's on his phone. But also I feel like I'm missing out on opportunities to connect with him because as soon as there's any boredom, like an advert on the team, we're watching something, an advert comes up straight on his phone.

19:03Richard Pomfrett:Like I'll be bored for one single second. So I'd love you to talk a bit more about the communication element. Yeah. So, you know, it is difficult. It is difficult for parents. And as I said earlier, I do lots of work in this area as well. And one thing that question always comes up, you know, screen time, what's the right amount of time? How do I get them off the phones? I think before I give you some of the few tips, I think it's important for parents that are going to be listening to this. I'm sure you have a large audience of parents. Is that when you are looking at screen time, I think it's important that you try not to fixate too much on the time.

19:43that's what lots of parents want I generally advise that screen time is put into two areas positive use and negative use so a positive use of screen time could be a child on a screen and they are you know they look like they're just you know on that screen doing nothing but they could be communicating with someone they could be communicating with a friend they're essentially socializing but the only reason they're doing it on a screen is because that friend's not in the room with them um they could be watching something that that is connected to like a hobby or an interest and again there's there's a there's a drive there a positive drive there so that they would be sort of classed as as positive uses that they're gaining something it's hard for parents to always see that they're gaining something but they individually are you have the negative sides as well just like doom scrolling and just like that that i can't put it down children that's one thing they children find it quite hard to regulate their time on devices that's where the parents come in and that's where the communication comes in it's it's talking to them about that it's talking to them about um having that healthy relationship with screens um finding out what they are doing is it a positive use or are you just wasting your time could that time be spent differently uh so they're the kind of conversations that i recommend and to open up them conversations and this is really for parents anyone that that really works or spends time with young people um i'm going to share my magic recipe with you is that okay looking forward to this so my magic recipe so again this is like what i found works for me everything i'm going to say from this point onwards is is what you know it's not the only way absolutely everyone's different everyone has different approaches but these are the three three things that I promote to anyone that wants to engage with a young person.

21:34So they're speaking to these three, be open, be positive, and be curious. So if we want young people to engage with us, that could be your child at home, that could be someone in a classroom, it could be your, you know, a sports coach, whatever it is. If we want young people to open up to us about their lives, first of all, we need to make them know and feel that we are safe people to do that. Now, obviously, from a parent's perspective, they know that you're safe. But we want to make them realize that we are safe people to have conversations with them. We are here to support and help them. We're not here to judge them or tell them how to live their life.

22:19So how we approach that is important. So the first one, be open. Be open to having conversations with them. Also be open to looking at life from their perspective. Be open to listening to their views and opinions. So like for screen time, for example, be open to having conversations about it. Be open to asking them what they think is a healthy amount of time to be online, not just telling them what you want them because that just shuts the conversation down you know it's it's about like talking about healthy boundaries and uh creating like a framework that we can move forward on you know what would be the best use of our time what do you think bringing them into the conversation is really important because when a young person feels like oh actually you you care what I say they'll be willing to share now you may be like you just mentioned Jolie screen time you know you may think well you know maybe like an hour or two like spread throughout the day may be okay but they may say 10 hours uh so you you're in this place but by having that conversation you can then start to be open to well actually you know do you think that's the most healthiest approach and be open to listen to them is important at that point so always be open to have these conversations also be open to hearing things that you didn't really want to hear that's important as well because again you've got to have a starting point so the next one is be positive so when I work with young people even if I'm having a conversation at home always try to one steer the conversation into the positive areas but also focus on the positives so for example if I'm working with some young people in schools and the online world comes into the conversation.

24:12We know at some point we're going to talk about the harmful part of the online world, the Andrew Tates of this world and things like that, the misogyny, the things that we want to really educate young people and help them think critically on. If we jump straight into that, that's going to, they're going to instantly think, oh, I see where this is going and they're going to want to shut that conversation down. So I always start with the positives. So that could be like, what do you like about this part of your life? Like I said earlier, what are the good bits and what are the hardest bits? So what do you like about being on your phone?

24:44What do you like about social media? What do you like about being a boy? What are the good parts? And the reason why that's important, it's a lot easier conversation for them. They love telling you about all the good bits, but it also lays down that foundation because then it allows you to talk about, well, actually, okay, how do we gain from that? So what do you like about being on your phone? Well, I like this, this, and this. okay so let's make sure you gain from all them things but we also need to talk about some of the opposites like if we spend too much time that could be harmful that could prevent you from doing other stuff or you like being on social media but what if you see something that upsets you or concerns you or let's let's help you educate you on that side so starting with the positives allows us to address the more concerning things and have their more open discussions later on plus if you hear something that's negative again okay well how can we turn that into a positive so it's always trying to steer that conversation into positive areas so they can relate to it oh this is actually gonna be helpful to me yeah does that make sense yeah i think this is really great

25:52Richard Pomfrett:actually it sounds really simple but it's actually can be you know it's really challenging to do in the time but it is like that really helps reframe it i think yeah absolutely and this ties into the last one so the last one is being being curious so we've got be open be positive be curious being curious I would say at the freeze probably the most helpful certainly certainly when you are trying to dig a bit deeper certainly if you don't know that child so that's something I have to do a lot because I walk into a room of boys I've never met them before so being curious is really important having an interest hearing what they have to say asking questions so tell me about it What do you like about this game?

26:34What do you like about that phone? What do you like about that person you follow on the internet? Being curious is so important because if we want to help young people, we need to understand them. We need to understand their thought process. And that's so important. Like when I work with young people, you know, I make it clear, we talked about this earlier, you know, I'm a dinosaur compared to them. You know, I'm a lot older than them. I was a young person once. I work with young people. I feel that I relate to them. I have lots of interests similar to young people. You know, I like martial arts.

27:12I like lots of the music they listen to. I feel like on a personal level, I can relate to them. I got my own young people at home but I'm not a young person and I make it really clear to them that I am not going to sit here today or for the next few days and I'm not going to pretend I know what it's like to be a young person today I have my own set of experiences and I have my own journey and life experience and I'm going to use that to try and guide you but I need you to educate me I want you to tell me about your life. I want you to tell me about the things that you find that you like. I want you to tell me about the things that you struggle with.

27:53I want you to tell me about things that keep you up at night. I want you to tell me about the things that put you under pressure. Because that way I can now guide you. It's not about telling you what to do. It's not about telling you how to be a man. Like there's no one way to be a man. it's about me guiding you into think about what kind of man you want to be and i can't do that unless i understand you so being curious is so important asking questions because that gives them the opportunity to feel heard and to feel listened to and then that's the that's now you've now got a starting point to have these conversations with them you know this is this is so important because i think as as you said jolie sometimes we know these things but in the moment when you're just frustrated that your kids distracted it's quite hard to actually put it into practice and when I think about when I have done it like so my eldest watches um you know these YouTube families that just like really rich in Hollywood they've got massive mansions they build like a I'm building a 7-Eleven in my bedroom today and a slide down the stairs like literally this is what they do and she'll watch it and then think Nen Pham is one of the big ones she watches and when I actually ask her about oh like who's that are they sisters or you know what are they doing and she looks at me like really surprised like I'm actually interested in what she's watching so I definitely see how that helps build a bridge.

29:19Today's podcast episode is sponsored by KORU Kids.

29:24Richard Pomfrett:When my kids were younger I never considered getting a nanny. It just seemed like something posh people do, something completely out of reach, certainly for me. But times have really changed. And with nurseries, childminders and wraparound care, costs can really mount. And just imagine, imagine the peace of mind of having one person who your kids love, who you can rely on implicitly to look after your child in your home. Someone who can handle school pickups, help with homework, sort dinner and help the kids wind down. So you can finish your work guilt-free and come home to peace and serenity and be totally present with your kids.

30:07Richard Pomfrett:If I was to have another baby, which, you know, I definitely won't be because I bought a dog instead, I would be considering nannies as an option. The flexibility, the simplicity, having one person you can fully trust. I hear you shout out to the dog parents, me included. I need that in my life Now, KORU Kids has full and part-time nannies that can work when your family actually needs them. Their nannies are vetted and trained and they work all across the UK so they will be where you are at. So why not have a look at their website? KORUKIDS.CO.UK. It is free to search and you can see what the cost difference is and whether it's a good fit for you.

30:51KORUKIDS.CO.UK. That's K-O-R-U-KIDS. dot co dot uk something happened last friday so every friday we pick up a couple of her friends from school um because side note their workplaces have have five day return to work office mandates but that's another podcast anyway so we pick them up we pick them up for fridays and often we'll take them to ice cream so we went for ice cream and her friend is 10 like my eldest and normally we sit there we eat our ice cream and then they go and play in the soft play with the little ones cool as now she's got a phone she's got a new phone she got like the day before so she's sitting there on instagram 10 years old on instagram scrolling right not eating ice cream not engaging with anyone else and I'm sitting there looking at her thinking deep breaths but ultimately I just said can you put your phone away and she put her phone away and she wasn't happy about it but she put her phone away and I think back and think was that the right thing to do like could I have been more curious about that or was it just uh put your phone away you know this is kind of rude behavior I don't know what do you think I mean yeah obviously like it's fine to say look this isn't the time and place but you know I I like that being that curious that's that's always an opportunity you know i always say to to parents and teachers and you know every day is an opportunity to be curious but also help your young people think critically you know critical thinking we'll get onto this later critical thinking i feel is a superpower for young people it's about helping them think and process and analyze what they're doing and being curious to do that so like what what you're watching you know uh what do you like about it um having that interest is always an opportunity to gain a little bit of knowledge from them but also it's about creating that environment for conversation because that comes from being curious oh what do you think oh what do you like about that it's like you know parents will say to me you know i don't get their this they're just watching someone on youtube playing minecraft i don't understand it it's brain it's mind-numbing you know why do they do that and i would say well ask them why sit down with them you know what do you gain from this and and you know and it's they'll tell you loads it's just like someone that plays golf you know if i don't play golf and watching golf on the tv i can't think of anything more boring but for people that do play golf they will love it they'll watch it for hours does that make sense so it's like well they they are gaining something they're into it and if you have an interest in that and you are curious like what do you what's all this about come on educate me that then brings you on to conversations about other things that you can help them with so it's it's opening that door i mean i know women who watch people squeezing spots

33:58Richard Pomfrett:on the internet i mean yeah i'm your friends jolly yeah these are my friends um do your kids call you a boomer Richard? No they don't but they probably would do no they don't generally I've heard that before. Yeah I get that all the time for my kids if I say what is that they go oh you're such a boomer. Yeah they're a little bit older now they would if they was in their teenage years younger yeah then that would be like assassinated all the time but they're a little bit older now so like you know when you said about earlier about they they they put pull themselves away fortunately i'm in that situation where certainly for my my two like men men children um you know like they're they're like we've got like a really good best friend relationship so it's it's it's more equal that but yeah if i was younger i'd be like that would happen all the time my orders started giving me the look now it doesn't even say anything just like like your old look sort of like yeah just like don't look at me like that yeah so three steps so is the first mindset is that yeah yeah so my three step approach um yeah so that's broken down into mindset um creating the right environment and uh how you get the conversation going so the mindset was what i shared earlier the mindset is is us if we want to help young people like how are we going to do that what what where where's our head at and having a right headspace is important um and that's that be open be positive be curious going into it with that being curious you know like i i want to learn from you i'm not here to judge you and i'm not going to respond you know i'm going to respond in a helpful way so that's like step one is them three things so this the second one is the environment so this is more in like an educational setting or in you know like schools or or people that spend time with young people not so much at home it's really important if you're going to engage with young people so my sessions are generally when when when we're running our boys to men program it's usually working with with groups of boys again it's different ages primary secondary and higher education but it's it's they change in their length of time and the conversations change depending on their age but they're all very similar it's usually small groups of boys 12 to 15 and creating that environment is really important and what I mean by that is I make sure that they know that it's not a this isn't a lesson it's not a test there's no right or wrong answers you know I'm not and also I'm not here just to hear the things that you want me to hear for example kids in school they're great at saying all the right things they can tell you what they should do or they shouldn't do but then they'll go off and do the complete opposite so like I address that right at the start especially when like the online aspects of their life so I say to boys you know that this isn't a test I'm here to learn from you as much as you're here to learn from me there's no right or wrong answers and again that's really important where they know that okay this is a safe open space to talk about their life and talk about their the things that we're going to address with them and you know I I generally when you when I have the opportunity take that one step further so I'll I'll say to a school like can you like get all the chairs and tables out the room uh because I don't even want it to look like a classroom I don't want people sitting in rows where there's got people behind them because for a young person that may have something really amazing to say feeling that someone's watching them from behind that can shut them down they won't even say that so again it's I try to create this environment that's just really open relaxed you know just like a circle of chairs maybe or room for them to move around where we may do some activities and it's like not school it's not school at all This is just a, this is a change.

38:02So, so it's important that they know this is a safe environment to talk. So that's step two is creating that environment where they're not on the spot. They're not here just to tell the right things. It's like, no, it's okay to, it's okay to disagree with me. It's okay to say, no, I don't agree with that. It's okay to challenge long as it's in a respectful way. We can challenge each other. and then the last step is um actually how we engage how we open them up to conversation so they'll have a process to that as well and again this process has developed over 25 years of doing it all wrong loads of times and thinking that didn't work that didn't work but this is this is what works for me so i use this analogy when i'm talking to professionals that work with young people it's a bit like going to the gym which i'm sure you do all the time yeah we're gym bros yeah absolutely so times a week yeah so it's a bit like going to the gym you don't walk in the gym and you don't pick up the most heaviest weight straight away you know otherwise you're just going to like rip a muscle you know you're going to be injured you go to the gym you warm up you know you get a treadmill you do a little bit of whatever you warm up and then when you've warmed up, then you put yourself under a little bit more pressure.

39:16So I have that approach when I work with young people. So if we're looking at a topic that I know is going to be quite a challenging topic, you know, but in an important topic to discuss could be about their, you know, their opinions on life, their things they struggle with, their insecurities, how stereotypes impact them. We know we're going to have some quite challenging conversations that could be quite hard for them my approach is i got to get these lads warmed up to this conversation i've got to make it safe for them to want to engage and start talking and to do that again i have a process now i'm going to go for that process with you guys we can do it in real time if that's all right yeah you're gonna warm us up i'm gonna warm you up warm us up and the reason why the reason why i say that is like when and this goes for anyone that works with young people as i said earlier like i'm i'm older than them my job when i work with young people is to get them to engage with with each other i'm there to facilitate conversation but my ultimate job is i want them talking to each other about these topics i want them to share their own experience with each other because if i say oh look guys it's okay to be worried about stuff it's okay to be insecure like okay that that's that's a good message for them to hear but it's going to be far more relatable if i can get a 14 year old boy to say to another 14 year old boy i i worry about that i please that's wow that's like oh okay so again it's all about getting them warmed up so should we give it a go yeah Let's do it.

41:01Okay.

41:01Richard Pomfrett:I'm quite cold, I'll warn you. Okay, well, I'll get you, I'll warm you up. So the first thing I do when I work with young people, as I said, we have a conversation, make sure they know it's a safe environment, make it a relaxed environment, and then we jump into it. So the first thing I want to do when I work with young people is I want to find out their first thoughts. That goes back to being curious. I want to find out what they think it is to be a man. We're here to talk about manhood. We're here to talk about masculinity. again not to promote a type of mask masculinity but we're here today or tomorrow or how many times i'm going to spend with time with them we're here to give you the freedom of what it what what you think it means to be a man what what do you want to be so i to do that i need to find out what their first thoughts are okay yeah so to do that i do an activity it's called labels and layers

41:51and it's split into two halves. So the labels part, which we're going to do right now, is I ask them a simple question. Now, all they need to do this is a piece of paper and a pen. Have you got a piece of paper and a pen in front of you?

42:05Richard Pomfrett:Absolutely, yeah. Awesome. Okay, so I just want to confirm, I mean, I hope they will believe us. We haven't preempted this, no? No. You don't know what I'm going to say right now? No rehearsals. Okay, please believe us. So I asked them a question. So they've all got a post-it note and a pen in front of them. And the reason why they've got a post-it note is they write their word down. They come stick it on the wall. We're not going to do that. So you're just going to do it on a piece of paper. So I asked them a question. So I want you to write down one word, your first word that comes to mind. And that's what you're about to do.

42:37First word that comes to mind when you hear the term a real man. What's a real man? Put your mind in the mind of a 15-year-old boy. That will help you. so what do you think they would say one word 15 year old boy say what i would say i'd go with a 15 year old boy try to relate to them we'll see how spot on you get see how close you get i'll say first word that comes to mind when you hear the term a real man and they write down one word okay we're writing it down we're not saying it you've you've both written it down yeah yeah okay so let's hold your words up i'm gonna can you see that okay my writing's not great a similar a thing muscles strong okay right yeah so well done you passed the test uh so at that point at that point i have a range of post-it notes strong elliot you get an extra house point for this strong is the most common one i hear but i'll get lots of others so i have a 15 year old boy underneath yeah as we all are um so i'll get strong i get muscles uh they're they're very common, very visual, stereotypical traits.

43:47So it's strong, it's brave, it's tough, it's muscles, it's ripped, it's six pack, it's, you know, the things that you would assume. Very stereotypical, very visual versions of what they think a man is. So that's our starting point. And the reason why it's called labels is they're the labels that one, we put on ourselves. And they're the labels that we quite often associate to being a man you got to be big you got to be strong you got to have muscles so then that's again they they write it on a post and now they stick it they run up on the wall so they're moving around they're like oh this is quite fun they stick it on the wall they all go back and sit down and we go through the words and we talk about it so I ask them their opinions you know oh you said strong uh what did you mean did you mean physically strong or mentally strong so

44:33Richard Pomfrett:it just opens up that conversation with them and then we can start oh okay so we start to talk about their words oh do you have to be strong all the time or can women be strong uh or muscles you know uh do you have is that a requirement you know what defies physical strength oh it's really genetics it's not all about you know i might i might get a few of them out to do like an arm wrestle or why did you win you're both men or boys oh because he's bigger than me so it's again to get them to think about critic critical thinking so oh actually you know strength three just comes down to our genetics we're all different shapes and sizes yeah but it opens up the conversation then we move on to round two so we have that chat maybe like five or ten minutes they go oh this is good this is good they start to feel comfortable this is the warm-up and then we go right let's do round two so we'll do round two now so flip your piece of paper over or you know uh we'll go around again so the second thing i asked them is i say okay so we're now we're going to change the we're going to change the question so first word that comes to mind when you hear the term a good man what's a good man it's basically what makes a good human am i meant to be a 15 year old boy when i'm answering this it won't matter for this because you'll you you'll be the same it's the same answers for for a 10 year old to i've done this in staff training it's exactly the same so don't worry so what makes a good what makes a good man elliot i've got what i think they would say reliable okay yep that comes up i just said kind kind that always comes up as well so this is now the layers so i have a group of words reliable kind compassionate respectful loving caring uh not words that you would usually associate a group of 14 or 15 year old boys are going to say like within 10 minutes of me spending time with them because in some cases you know they're sitting there with their arms crossed like what's all this about i'm not you know uh i'm not gonna run you know i'm very guarded but in 10 minutes time they're talking about words that are like wow like okay like that's really reassuring and again the reason why i do that it's like it shows them that actually you know there are labels like we've got to be big strong and tough and by the way then words that we start off with none of them a bad forms of masculinity like being strong is not bad being brave is not bad yeah these but again it's it's showing them that it's not the only requirement us men and this is where we tie into it's just humans we're a bit more complex than that and they're now sharing all these really positive and these are all their inequalities by the way none of these have got anything to do with muscles or six packs they're to do with their how they communicate their inequalities they're being compassionate, respectful, being reliable, being helpful, being supportive.

47:28These are words that come up. And again, it's right at the start. It's like we are far more complex than just muscles. And actually, when we look at all these words, we've now got all these post-it notes. These are the words that are actually going to define you as young men. These are going to shape your interactions with others. You know, being strong will help you in certain situations. being being tough is going to help you in certain situations or brave but actually it's these qualities of being a good person these are going to help you daily being kind being respectful being supportive they're the ones that are going to shape your interactions and relationships with other people so do you recommend that parents can do this kind of activity with their kids as well yeah again it's just like it it gets out the obvious like oh we've got to be big and strong Okay, well, but we're a bit more than that.