In short
Masculinity, identity, and “monsters” (how boys/men are shaped by fear, belonging, and the stories they’re told), with lessons for parenting, coaching, and workplace leadership.
Guests
John Amaechi, organisational psychologist, New York Times bestselling author, and former NBA player. Interviewers: Joeli Braley and Elliott Ray (co-hosts of To Be A Boy).
Key claims
Sport at its best enables healthy male intimacy and sustainable performance; it’s not “magic,” it depends on coaches and atmosphere. Workplaces often treat people like replaceable widgets, unlike sport’s long-term investment mindset. “Strength doesn’t equate to cruelty,” and independence shouldn’t mean isolation. Toxic masculinity is framed as a harmful, escalating pathway driven by insecurity and entitlement, not a lack of knowledge. Boys are drawn to “alpha” narratives because they offer blame-shifting and soothing absolution, not because they don’t understand masculinity.
Notable examples
Amaechi’s first basketball session in a tiny gym where teammates welcomed him; coaching advice emphasizing interpersonal/conflict skills and using psychological resources; his experiences being treated as a “monster” in public (people taking other lifts, dropping coffees); critique of the TV series Adolescence for empathy being directed toward the boy who commits murder; his “reflective practice” approach to de-escalation and growth.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOThe Role of Sport in Identity
0:56 to 3:50
John discusses how sport provided him a sense of belonging and intimacy.
“I started playing basketball for reasons unrelated to sport, money, professional athlete life or lifestyle.”
Lessons from Team vs Individual Sports
3:51 to 7:54
John elaborates on the differences between amateur and professional sports and the lessons learned.
“And it's not just the people on the court with you or on your team.”
Understanding Motivation in Sport and Work
7:55 to 9:21
John shares insights on motivation and how it applies to both sports and workplace dynamics.
“And I am definitely a proponent of this.”
The Impact of Coaching and Community
9:22 to 12:54
John discusses the positive effects of coaching on both the coach and the community.
“We need to need sponsor for the podcast as well.”
Encouraging Men to Engage in Coaching
12:55 to 14:00
John emphasizes the importance of men's involvement in community sports and coaching.
“I mean, that is just such a beautiful way of putting it.”
Importance of Coaching Skills
14:00 to 16:14
Learn why interpersonal skills are crucial for coaches working with youth.
“to get involved in community activities, to community sport, not just for the kids, but for them.”
Redefining Masculinity
16:14 to 18:16
Explore the complexities of modern masculinity and its historical context.
“What do you think it means to be a man today?”
The Reality of Toxic Masculinity
18:16 to 20:01
Understand how toxic masculinity impacts society and mental health.
“Men had no emotional lives of their own.”
Experiences of a Tall Black Man
20:59 to 24:41
Hear John Amaechi's reflections on public perception and personal identity.
“I can't explain that unless they see a monster.”
Navigating Identity and Professionalism
24:41 to 28:00
Learn how John uses his identity to navigate professional settings successfully.
“as something that helps you in your professional life?”
Show all 23 chapters
The Burden of Stereotypes on Black Men
28:00 to 30:26
John Amaechi shares insights on the emotional struggles faced by young black men due to societal stereotypes and expectations.
“That's a big thing to process emotionally, but also what you would say to other big black men, particularly boys in secondary school, who may feel the same, what message you'd want to give to them?”
The Importance of Parental Support
30:26 to 31:30
Amaechi emphasizes the role of parental affirmation in shaping identity and self-worth in children.
Media Representation and Masculinity
31:30 to 34:00
Amaechi critiques media portrayals of masculinity and discusses the implications for young men of different backgrounds.
“I'd love you to expand a bit on that, John.”
Understanding the Roots of Toxic Masculinity
34:00 to 39:00
The conversation explores the causes and societal expectations that contribute to toxic masculinity among young men.
“I feel sad that we're in a situation where so many young people can make so many bad choices.”
The Appeal of Alpha Male Narratives
39:00 to 42:00
Amaechi discusses the attraction to alpha male narratives and the detrimental effects they have on societal relationships.
“because wealth is intrinsically alpha, and anything else is intrinsically beta, right?”
Influences on Masculinity
42:00 to 43:10
Discusses the positive and negative influences on boys regarding masculinity.
“But I'm going to, I know you, to me, you and Elliot are like positive influence, masculinity influences.”
Reclaiming Masculinity Discussion
43:10 to 45:10
Explores the misconceptions around masculinity and the importance of personalizing it.
“I mean, I don't know that the answer is going to be listening to Elliot or me in particular.”
Masculinity in Leadership
45:10 to 47:20
Examines the connection between masculinity and leadership traits in the workplace.
“It's one of the things that's confusing as a gay man, why I look at so many men who seem to hate women whilst desiring them.”
Reflective Practice for Growth
47:20 to 51:20
Discusses the importance of reflective practice for personal growth and adapting masculinity.
“And they also think this stems from a masculine patriarchal archetype.”
Advice for Raising Resilient Boys
51:20 to 55:50
Offers practical advice for parents on fostering a flexible and kind masculinity in boys.
Closing Thoughts on Masculinity
55:50 to 56:00
Reflects on the upbringing and the personal nature of masculinity through anecdotes.
Encouraging Connection and Affection in Boys
56:00 to 57:52
Learn how to foster healthy connections and emotional expression in boys.
“Encourage them to have close friends who are boys.”
The Impact of Positive Parental Affection
57:52 to 58:22
Understand the lasting influence of parental love and support on boys' identities.
“but he will at some point experience somebody trying to impugn his identity and tell him that he is awful or misshapen or something else.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:05Elliott:Hello and welcome back to To Be A Boy with me, Joeli Braley. And me, Elliott Ray. Today we are joined by John Amaechi, organisational psychologist, New York Times bestselling author and former NBA player. John is one of the most powerful voices we have on leadership, culture and what it means to thrive as a human being. He challenges us to think differently about identity, belonging and the stories we tell our boys and men about themselves. I was introduced to John and his work by my partner, who's also an ex-basketball player. And honestly, if he could have posters in his bedroom, if I let him have posters in his bedroom, you would be front and centre.
0:51Elliott:We'd have just a massive John Amici poster in our bedroom. so I really want to start with sport because sport is really important at my house I have two boys and for my boys and my partner it's become such a central play such a central role in their lives and it didn't play a big role in my life growing up and it feels to me like sport plays a particular role for boys so John I'd like to start by asking you what sport did for you when you were growing up
1:24John Amaechi:So I've had the worst and the best of experiences in sport. I started playing basketball for reasons unrelated to sport, money, professional athlete life or lifestyle. I started because I thought I could find a place where I would fit in, where people wouldn't look at me and be afraid, where people would look at me and see my potential rather than imagine me a criminal. And that's exactly what I found in a tiny, rather urine-smelling gym in Chalton near Manchester. I walked in the front door for my first basketball training session, and I kind of ducked through this tiny little door into a gym where people were already playing, and everything stopped.
2:15John Amaechi:People stopped. They looked at me. and they ran towards me, which in my regular life is a terribly frightening thing to happen. But in this context, they grabbed me by the arms and they were like, this guy is on our team. And that was the moment I knew I was going to play basketball and do it in every way I possibly could. And it was nothing to do with the game. I'd never played the game. I'd never touched a basketball. It was simply the idea that what a difference it was to walk into this space where you felt that people wanted you there, were not afraid of you, almost envied the things that other people found frightening about you and then when you get into the sport you suddenly realize that there's a real intimacy to it i think is one of the base when sport is done well one of the best things about it is it provides access to men who are often denied it or more accurately deny themselves real intimacy especially with other men it provides a space for intimacy where people can when we think about sports at its best, how when, even if you're not playing, if you're just watching sport, your team loses and you can hug the man next to you and nobody misunderstands what is happening.
3:26John Amaechi:Where when there is success, you can be jubilant and frivolous and frolicky with other men and nobody misunderstands. It provides a context for very normal, very healthy behaviours that men sometimes all too often are denied outside of it and that's what sport did for me at its best it did some bad stuff too but that was the beginning and that's
3:51Elliott:what it can do at its best I think and do you think are there are there other things that it taught you about masculinity do you think there's something about team sports for men rather than individual sports that um really helps them thrive and and learn about interaction with other with other boys and with other men there are other things that you think it gives you
4:15John Amaechi:so there's a difference between amateur or kind of community level sport and professional sport because in professional sports and athletics there are no individual sports I know you might be thinking of runners or shot putters or whatever else but there's no such thing as an individual sport with them or with basketball players too. And it's not just the people on the court with you or on your team. It's this extended group of people. So you learn those lessons in professional sport, regardless of whether you are a single person in the eye of an audience member or a fan. In community sport, I think there is a difference because so many young people find provision for individual sports lacking.
4:58John Amaechi:And so the best they might have is a run club that they can join with where everybody's kind of doing their own thing. Does it teach some lessons of teaming? It depends. It depends. When you throw a group of people together, ostensibly with the goal of playing a sport on the same team, sometimes that creates a cohesive unit, especially if there's a leader or a coach either on the floor as a player, as a participant, or as an actual more official coach who demands it. But throwing people together to play sport has never been an indicator that it will turn into this magic thing. Sport is not magic.
5:32John Amaechi:It has no special qualities. Football doesn't have a special quality that Zumba doesn't. And I know people, they hate that, but it's true. Basketball doesn't have a special quality that chess doesn't. It is simply a substrate where with the right people, with the right mindset, with a coach who wants to create that atmosphere, whether that person be a player, a participant, or an actual official kind of older mentor kind of figure, that's when it works otherwise it's just a group of people lord of the flies was there anything you
6:06Elliott:think that you had to unlearn from playing sport was there anything that because you grew up playing basketball and you spent so much time in those sports teams was there anything that you once you stepped away from sport you thought I really have to unlearn this thing um I mean I started very
6:28John Amaechi:late. I started at 17. Most people who play basketball, especially professional basketball, they start five or six. And so for me, it was just a massive learning curve, everything. In terms of the unlearning, I haven't unlearned a huge amount. I think the thing that I've had to adjust my mindset around is the fact that most people misunderstand. I work a lot in businesses and large organizations and the number of men who love to talk about sport as an analogy and by doing so make it clear that they've never played sport at any level that's important or interesting and I mean even community based right because they talk about it in this way that misunderstands it most of your time spent in sport is spent in preparation and recuperation not in performance and that's the opposite of what most examples in workplaces or even in education are about so I had to kind of understand how people mutate sport for their own purposes to get people to run through walls of fire and burn themselves out, whereas sport is not about that.
7:32John Amaechi:It's about sustainable performance over a year, which requires a very different mindset than treating a person as if they're disposable.
7:40Elliott:That's really interesting, isn't it? And do you think that translates directly to work as well, that actually we burn ourselves out when we're working and we're constantly trying to perform and actually we need to, I'm going off tangent a little bit here, but I found that really interesting. And I am definitely a proponent of this. I think we spend too long, we work too hard. And actually, if we took a step back and spent more time resting and recuperating and finding joy, that actually our work would be much better.
8:08John Amaechi:Yeah, well, I mean, it wouldn't just be much better, it would be much better for longer. I don't think work should have a body count, right? I think with very few exceptions of things in the military and perhaps things like fire services, very few jobs should kill you, whether it be in a very real and physical way or whether it be in a kind of debilitating mental and emotional way. Just don't think it should. In sport, and this is not universal and there are definitely flaws and problems because sport's no panacea and the sport business world is no better broadly. But if you look at people as if they're in investment, you look at them over a long term.
8:46John Amaechi:You say, you're going to be with me for three years. How do I get the best out of you for three years? How do I make you want to stay here for three years and not leave for another team? But unfortunately, most workplaces look at people as if they're widgets that are easily replaceable. And when they break, it's kind of like, oh, hum, Elliot's dead. Let's find another Elliot-shaped widget. And that's a very different approach to human beings, I think, and a very horrible one. I have definitely been a widget you mentioned that you started playing basketball at 17 so up until you were 17 you were a normal kid a normal boy doing normal things and then you found out you're really good at basketball and then you became an NBA player like that's a massive change to go through in a quite small space of time how did you adapt to to that change and when did you to the nba so um from starts from picking up a basketball it was six years later where i played in the nba i'm still the only person in the world of basketball to have done that um it's again i can't emphasize enough that the reason i hate to sweat to this day i do not like i do not i've never had you know that thing that people talk about what's it called
10:05Elliott:runners high you know yeah I've never experienced that in my life right so I don't like to exercise
10:13John Amaechi:I mean I'm sore today because I went back to my trainer who I only have and he knows this because I am I'm cheap and so if I'm paying somebody to work out with me I won't miss the workout which is the only reason that I go right and I'm sore today and I resent it my neck hurts and it's really stiff I've got deep heat on my neck which is just ridiculous and not helping and so that is who I was a 16 year old I like Greg's steak slices and I like I like reading books and that's who I was then and it's who I am now if I could have a Greg's anything right now while I'm doing this I would do that so I got a credit card by the way just because it gave me a weekly Greg's my wife loves Greg's she we're actually looking at investing in Greg's and buying Greg shares like when we see a new Greg's pop up and the new design with the the open window she's there.
11:05Elliott:We need to need sponsor for the podcast as well. Great for listening.
11:10John Amaechi:Who's the head of inclusion at Greg's give us a message. Right let's get on to them. This was the thing that drove me though and I think this is another thing that people forget right in workplaces in organizations in sports in schools the motivator doesn't have to be the same as everybody else's it doesn't have to be related to some big audacious goal. I met a group of people who made me feel like a human being, like a full and proper person who I really felt cared about how I was. If I twisted my ankle, the care was genuine and not just about a disappointment in me not being able to perform, but about my pain being meaningful.
11:46John Amaechi:And I just knew that I would do whatever it took to never leave that environment. In the school of motivation, most people think this is nerdy, but you can cut it out. Most people think that there's kind of extrinsic motivation, pay me enough and I'll do it. And then intrinsic motivation, you don't have to pay me and I'll do it. And I've never found anybody who's that intrinsically motivated in our capitalistic world. But there's actually things in the middle. And one of them is something called interjected regulation. It's not important. But what it essentially means is sometimes it's not you and a connection to the outcome, whether it be finishing your homework cleaning your room whatever else it might be behaving well in public it's actually a third thing and that third thing for me was not like the mba and glory and money for me it was this third thing here that kept me tethered to the work required to deliver it was this idea of these people who cared about me these people who made me feel like I was a proper human being and not an alien in the midst, a scary one at that.
12:51John Amaechi:I think people forget that that's another form of motivation that we can take advantage of if we build relationships.
12:57Elliott:I mean, that is just such a beautiful way of putting it. And this was a question I wanted to ask you. My partner coaches the local football team. He actually hates football, but he does it because our youngest really likes football. They needed a coach. There's nobody to train them, so he took it on. and he says he's got more out of it than he thinks the kids have he's he loves coaching and the other men that he does it with they've bonded they spend time together they go to the pub together to talk about the teams so it gives him access to you know a new social life as well as he says some of the kids that he coaches he knows he's having a positive influence on them and that some of them have had really hard times recently and he knows that them coming to football is grounding for them and he loves giving back in that way.
13:45Elliott:And you've spoken a lot about the positive influence that the coaches in Stockport, I used to live near Stockport, had on you when you were growing up. What would you say to, because I feel it's really important to encourage other people to get involved in community activities, to community sport, not just for the kids, but for them. Is there anything that you would say to other men who might be interested in coaching teams.
14:14John Amaechi:So I'd say that I love the perspective that your partner's got, right? The idea that a demonstration that sport legitimizes and indemnifies men for intimacy, which I think is really important. Yeah. But I would also say this, don't experiment with young people. So if you're interested in being a coach in a developmental setting, It is more important, not less important, that you have the interpersonal skills, the conflict de-escalation skills around the technical skills. It is just far more important because, as you've just pointed out, Julie, you can very quickly become important to a young person who will then escalate the number of things that they'll bring to you to a point where being well-meaning won't cut it.
15:07John Amaechi:And well-meaning isn't a protective factor for young people, especially those who are in distress or who have difficult lives. Expertise is a protective factor. And this is not me saying that everybody who coaches in communities needs to be a counsellor or therapist. It's simply that you should be at least the kind of person who's going online, looking at video resources. They're available, BPS website, ABP website. These are psychological, British Psychological Society and the Association of Business Psychologists even. And there's lots of other counseling websites out there where you can just look at very simple resources that will help you do with the common things that will occur when you are around young people who begin to trust you.
15:49John Amaechi:And that's why I'd say there's lots of brilliant things that will come from it. This idea of creating, you know, a real connection with other coaches and feeling a sense of worth because you're really delivering value for young people. but just remember being a brilliant tactician is is irrelevant in most of these environments I don't remember when I saw it but it's a while ago there was a piece of research that said what kids the kids the teams that performed best it wasn't about the technical skill in football basketball whatever else of the coach it was about the interpersonal skill of that coach that led to the team developing the dynamic where they could be successful
16:27Elliott:yeah yeah I I can see that that would make a big difference and you do I can see for my partner Tom that when there's some of the kids that have had really difficult challenging few years or lives he feels this massive sense of responsibility and I know that you could very easily be a negative force as well as a positive force because you are in a powerful position as a coach aren't you and that I'd love to talk to you a bit about identity, which you talked a lot about very, very powerfully. What do you think it means to be a man today? That's a really big question. And do you think it has changed since you were younger?
17:15John Amaechi:So I pause because it is complex, but complex doesn't mean that it's difficult. I pause because the way we're talking about masculinity now is very akin to the way politics is talking about. If we were in a regressive area of way back when politics, the idea of there was a point in the past where everything was brilliant, where the sun shone more often, where everybody's pockets were full of cash, where everyone could afford a house, where everyone was doing well. And that is the nexus of make America great again, make Britain great again. It's the nexus of that. And what we're having is the same thing with masculinity, an idea that people are throwing back to a mythical time that never really existed without facing the facts that in that time men died in their 40s of black lung.
18:04John Amaechi:They were absent from their families because of the number of hours that they worked, where the, you know, where the maternal mortality rate was ridiculously high, where all of these terrible things were happening and men didn't have it great. Men had no emotional lives of their own. And we're we're hearkening back to it as if it's something quite different. So masculinity to me is better described by saying, I'm not arguing against the idea of strength and independence, but I am arguing that strength doesn't equate to cruelty. I'm a six foot nine, 160 kilogram black man. There are very few rooms I go into where if I wanted to turn every table over and throw people asunder I couldn't.
18:48John Amaechi:There are very few rooms where if I wanted to misbehave, there is nobody in that room that could stop me. But to me, strength doesn't equate to cruelty or dominance. And it shouldn't justify entitlement. And I don't understand why men can't get their head around that. Be strong. But that doesn't mean entitled. It doesn't mean dominant. And it doesn't mean cruel. That's all. Independence. I'm big on independence. I live alone. Have a partner. Don't live with them like it this way. Independence doesn't mean isolation. And that's another thing I can't really understand. What happened when we started to suggest that independence meant not just isolation, but a sense of emotional independence, which is stoicism.
19:33John Amaechi:But stoicism that justifies violence when masculinity feels challenged, feels weak to me more than strong. So I suppose masculinity to me is like everything else, born demanded to evolve. And if it doesn't evolve, it's not going to be fit for purpose. And it isn't fit for purpose now. I know people have real qualms with this idea of toxic masculinity. And I'm always interested with that. But if I told you that a chemical in your water was killing people at an unprecedented rate, people were harming themselves or others at an unprecedented rate if I told you it was leading to heart attacks and family breakdown?
20:22John Amaechi:If I told you all of these things about this chemical, would you describe it as anything other than toxic? And that's what's happening with the way that masculinity is currently being performed, and it is being mostly performed. And I don't know if it's just a function of insecurity, but that's a big part of it. and we're live on match day as Doug reaches for a buffalo wing he's got it oh and he's gone for a can of Pepsi too what a finish there's no doubt about it it just tastes better match days deserve Pepsi
20:59John how have you found that so you said you're at six foot nine it's very tall and you're a black man how have you found I guess within this conversation of masculinity and how you're received by people obviously there's some people who know who you are and so that comes with a different perception and maybe they will treat you in a different way in comparison to when they don't know who you are so have you found it's different when you walk into a room and people have no idea who you are do you do you feel a different sense of they are threatened by you your identity your masculinity versus when John Amici comes in the room and he's here to do a talk for us because we are paying him to come and talk to our leaders i'll be fascinated to hear what your thoughts are
21:42John Amaechi:yeah i mean uh that is a very different experience for me i don't leave my house very much unless i have to because the experience apart from that the experience of being in public with other people is painful it's really painful because you although this will feel fragile to lots of people we are impacted by how we see other people see us and i know when i leave my house that i'm a monster and i know this because of how other people react to me and they react to me like i'm a monster when i walk into a lift and they are going to walk into a lift with me they might take the next lift and i can't explain that unless i'm a monster when i walk into a space with people and they take their belongings, their valuables, and hold them closer to themselves.
22:37John Amaechi:I can't explain that unless they see a monster. When I round a corner, this happened to me when I lived in my old house last year, I rounded a corner and a couple were walking towards me with coffees. And they dropped their coffees. And the man, actually, of the two shrieked as I rounded the corner, like a meter or two away from them. So it wasn't like I walked into them. And the only way I can explain this, and I've known this since I was 13, right? I know that I'm a monster. And so I avoid interactions if I can, because it's harmful to my emotional well-being and I curate them otherwise. So everything you're looking at right now is curated for the benefit of mostly white people, but everybody, to see me in a way that is useful for me and less harmful.
23:30John Amaechi:The blue around my head here, this is 40 hours work here. It's light around my head and dark around the edges, makes me look lighter, which makes me feel safer to people. I am massive, but you couldn't tell until I said so because there's so much space around me that helps you to see me in context. Books, old school science fiction, which I'm really into, right? I bought that lightsaber. I bought these things because I'm really into them. But they make people feel safe because, oh yeah, I remember Star Wars, the TARDIS, I remember Doctor Who. And awards parking over here. So other people have recognized that I'm good at something.
24:11John Amaechi:They don't know what it is but something and all of this is for the audience to see me in a way that is least corrosive for me and most helpful for our interactions and so yeah it's a very different experience if I shift things up and if I just wore what I wanted to wear and which I don't um in public at least thank you for saying that as you were talking I feel that deeply and I think a lot of people listening will understand that you've spoken about how that changes the way you navigate but in professional settings are you able to use that as a power i have found that with with what you've spoken about you can either shrink in that or you can use that as a strength and i choose to for the most part use that as a strength i would love to hear how you use your identity your body your height, etc.
25:06as something that helps you in your professional life?
25:09John Amaechi:Really judiciously, right? I spend a lot of time on stages far away from people, which is helpful. I do this thing actually with groups when it's not a stage, but just a larger room where I will talk to them about whatever we're talking about. And then I will demonstrate what it is to be conscientious about your identity by simply walking closer than I've been. and I don't change my facial expression, but I just walk closer to them. I walk and you can see and everybody in the room can feel the tension that people feel, even though they know this is Professor John Amache. He's a psychologist. He's an educator.
25:46John Amaechi:Even with all of that, all the ideas they have about blackness and size and that combination makes people feel frightened. So it's not useful for me. I'm a psychologist. I work with people in the most vulnerable moments for the most part, usually when things aren't going well or aren't as well as they'd like them to be. So being frightening is not useful. So I have to do everything possible to not be frightening. The truth is that I'm a nerd. That is the most core identity of me, right? I'm a nerd. I love Greggs. I love Star Wars, to a lesser extent, Star Trek, though if there was a universe I was going to live in, it would certainly be the Star trek one not the star wars one um i love uh doctor who's um even the woke ones from nowadays and so these are real things about me and are more informative if people want to get to know me which is another reason why this is here to create connections off stuff that's meaningful to me as opposed to stuff that's not really but yeah i can't use it in the way that some people do because intimidating people is rarely useful the most bold thing that i'll do with anybody coach about 20 % of the people I coach don't want to be coached and they don't want to be coached by me, but they have no choice.
Read the full transcript
26:54John Amaechi:They have behaved poorly and now they are being mandated coaching in order to keep their job. And these people can sometimes be uncivil. And the most strong that I am is to have them say something to me, like when we start our conversation, it's, and I'll say something like, it's clear that you're a bit hot right now. So I'm going to go and make some tea and I'll turn my camera off and my audio off and I'll be back in five minutes. And that's as strong as it gets. I set a boundary. I walk away. I actually don't need to go away and make tea because I've got my thermos flask right there. That's it.
27:28John Amaechi:So it's not like I can just say, shut up you, what the hell are you doing? Because everybody loses. It's one of the failures of masculinity, actually, to bring it back to that. This idea that people don't realize that intimidation and violence, whether it's actual physical violence or discursive violence, leads to a mutual failure almost inevitably.
27:46Elliott:Yeah, you talk about this powerfully in your new book, how you remain calm under pressure and under stress. I just, before we move on to that, I really would love to know firstly, how you process that. You described yourself as people seeing you as a monster. That's a big thing to process emotionally, but also what you would say to other big black men, particularly boys in secondary school, who may feel the same, what message you'd want to give to them?
28:17John Amaechi:It's exhausting. It's frustrating. And there were points in my life where I just wanted to rip people asunder. I wanted to become the thing that everybody thought I was. There's this brilliant, it almost won an Oscar, I think. It's called Nimona. I don't know if you've seen it. It's a cartoon. I highly recommend it. It's about a young girl who is a monster in this mythical environment where everybody's very afraid of monsters and she gets to the point where she wants to destroy everything and then she looks around her at what she's wrought and then tries to kill herself. And I think that is the trap that many young black men who are perceived as big and strong and violent and criminal and whatever else comes with the stereotypes.
29:01John Amaechi:They want to, eventually the frustration builds to a point where they want to act out and then at some point they see what they've become and that they've validated what these people think of them and they then want to harm themselves. And all I would say is there is a core of you that you must hold on to. There is a picture of you that is not corrupted by the ignorance and malice of strangers. There is a picture of you, an image in a mirror of someone's eye that can show you who you are. and you have to hold on to that every single day you have to hold on to it for me it was my mom and I used to I used to look at her every once in a while we'd all read books together because we're nerds as a family and I would be reading a book and my mom would be reading a book and I'd be looking up and I'd be reading my book and then every once in a while I'd look up and my mom would be looking at me.
30:02John Amaechi:And when she looked at me, I knew who I was. I could see it in her face that I am her big, clever boy. And so in the midst of these looks from strangers, in the midst of these fear that radiates off people when I walk by, in my mind, I just remember, my mom's long since gone, but I just remember that I am a big, clever boy. Hold on to that. that's amazing so our youngest is um two and a half and she's massive for her age she's wearing five to six clothes like wearing primark shopping in the primary school it's the thing they don't tell you right about being about big kids they don't tell you it's just very expensive it's very expensive and she's growing very quickly and she's for a two and a half year old she's so nimble and fast on her feet and so we take her to play groups for her age and you can see that other parents are very worried and because they're thinking wait a minute this kid is this kid's four or five years old why are they here and they're black and she's got big hair bunches and and I'm just very aware of that that she's going to be a big black girl and this in a big black woman in this world and that's going to come with you know ups and downs and whatnot and so I think what you've shared here has really just helped me to understand that we need to teach her that whatever comes in her life she is our girl and and we love her and so that's that's incredible yeah that was
31:31Elliott:so powerful I was really really touched by the video response you did to the tv series adolescence um and you said and I'm going to quote you the hand wringing around the plight of working class implicitly white men seems to have more compassionate energy than the conversations about the abhorrent behaviour from young men from other ethnic and minority communities. I'd love you to expand a bit on that, John.
32:02John Amaechi:Yeah, I found that programme problematic. Not from an artistic point of view, I get it. I can see how it's great art. But you just couldn't replace that protagonist with any other ethnicity. You couldn't replace them with what might be considered an oik, right? Even if it was a white, really working class or struggling family, you couldn't replace that dynamic and have people feel the same empathy towards the protagonist. I couldn't explain, I couldn't rationalize, even with the dynamic that was at play, how we could go through a program and who the victim was would feel uncertain. as we went through there was a victim and the victim was a girl and her family yeah full stop full stop that was it you you were called uh i don't know what it was but you were called the name and you murdered someone there's a victim here and it's one and to me it was such a such an interesting take on the crisis about masculinity which is a crisis of men's making and this is not me being cruel.
33:20John Amaechi:I am empathetic about this. But you can't create change if we don't talk about the status quo, what is actually happening. And what is actually happening is men are deciding that there are rules that they are willing to follow despite the fact that they are caustic and harmful to them. And we've decided that, and not en masse, not just en masse, but individuals are deciding it in their various communities. And that is leading to behavior that is harmful to others. And yet when we witness that behavior, especially with this adolescent show, we're supposed to feel sorry implicitly with that program for the boy.
33:59John Amaechi:And I don't feel sorry for the murderer. I feel sad that we're in a situation where so many young people can make so many bad choices. So many parents be under equipped to challenge that at an early stage, because by the time your son is already following Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson and all of these other ridiculous caricatures of even men in any modern sense, in any real sense, by the time they're already embedded in that, you've intervened too late. And I'm not saying they're a lost cause, but there's an earlier stage where you start watching boys mock girls for things that they can or can't do, and you intervene there.
34:41John Amaechi:There's a stage where they start bulking because one of their friends' families have said that doing the dishes is woman's work, and you intervene there. There's a stage where people decide that boys can look lasciviously at girls and women, and that's okay, and you intervene there. And that's where you teach people what's appropriate. There's this massive differential in the perceptions of men and women about what beautiful is in terms of relationship building, and you intervene there. What's always interesting to me as a gay man is the idea that most straight men don't seem to realize that the thing that they're trying to develop to be attractive is for other straight men.
35:24John Amaechi:It's not for women. The thing that they're doing to be attractive, the cash being thrown around, the bottles with the sparklers in them, the cars with the very loud engines, those ridiculous gym t-shirts that have got all but like a small fraction of cloth, your nipples are fully exposed. This is not, I don't have a huge amount of experience with women, but I know that that's not for women. I know that. And so this is how we intervene, right? By helping people see the ridiculousness of this performative masculinity and start early with that. So that's why the program really bothered me because it felt like whilst it was trying to give this message about, look how harmful this form of masculinity is, it's still looped back to it's not really their fault it's you know and then you hear people talk about even people i really respect i did a response to prof g he's a gallop scott galloway and and i i did a response to him because even some things he talked about it's not the fact that men have to swipe i haven't been on a nap for a while but uh right a hundred times to get one response from a woman is not a woman's fault.
36:37John Amaechi:And even that's a weird framing of it. If you are the kind of person whose profile scares women away, that is the fault of you, not the fault of women. And what we do know from tons of research looking at attractiveness for women, it won't be because you've got a mole on your face. It won't be because you've got a couple of extra pounds on you. It will be because of something you say or an image you have in your background that frightens women and do something about that rather than say well you know
37:08Elliott:what's the problem Jolie women nowadays are just too picky yeah exactly yeah the the whole 2080 theory that um 80 % of women go for the top 20 % of men in terms of wealth and in terms of status and in terms of attractiveness has been disproved so many times. Are you empathetic with the notion that the reason why boys are so attracted to these very toxic masculinity influences is because they don't understand what masculinity is anymore? The idea that we haven't got a role for men anymore because women have moved more into the workplace, because so many more women are breadwinners, because so many, because we have tried to create this equal playing field across the board, men have lost the sense of who they are and what their role is in the world.
38:07Elliott:And so they're attracted to people who are telling them, hey, you can be rich. Hey, you can have loads of hot women hanging off you. You can have a yacht. All you need to do is follow my course and go to the gym 24 times a day. and so do are you empathetic with this notion that men don't understand what the world wants
38:29John Amaechi:for them anymore no it's bollocks it's that's the technical term it's just it's utter utter bollocks right it's not real and it's not true women tell men all the time because we are talking about straight men and this is one of the things i just want to stop there are plenty of toxic gay men too but this particular brand of this this is a straight male problem right and now can i just
38:52Elliott:say as well, the data shows it's a middle class problem as well.
38:55John Amaechi:Oh, very much so. Very much so. Yes, that's also true. And there's a real classism to the alpha male type of narrative, because wealth is intrinsically alpha, and anything else is intrinsically beta, right? So there's an idea of your personal failing if you haven't somehow managed to own two Bugattis or something. I don't have a car. I haven't had one for 30 years. Hasn't impacted my testosterone, even a knot. My age probably has, but not my lack of a Dugati. No, the reason, so I'm not empathetic about this because it's not true. It's not real that people don't know what's expected of them. They may not like what's expected of them, but that's different.
39:35John Amaechi:But the reason that this alpha male nonsense is so attractive to me, to my mind anyway, is because it offers the same balm, soothing balm that reform offers, the same soothing balm that Trump offers in America, the same soothing balm that all of these carnival hucksters offer, which is the fundamental reassuring blanket of, Elliot, it's not your fault. That's it. That's why it's attractive. Whatever the other formula that comes with your£100 a week subscription to their special plan, whatever else is in there the fundamental truth of it is what's wrong with those women over there what's wrong with those other men who aren't alphas over there and how it's their fault just like it's poor people in boats that's why you can't afford a house not the people who've bought up half of mayfair but don't live there right it's that idea of a simple narrative i don't know i I wrote this in a paper years and years ago, but the idea of one should never underestimate the horrors that seemingly moderate human beings will commit when convinced it leads to the idea that it's not their fault.
40:53John Amaechi:They will do, people will do awful things. If you look at the people, Allport is a psychologist who studied the Holocaust and how it escalated. He has a scale called the Antilocution Scale, which shows how you can escalate from antelocution, saying bad words about a group of people, to murdering them. And when you look at how men treat women and the escalation of violence and the hundreds of thousands of people, over one million violent crimes against women are reported every year, a hundred women killed annually. That stems from being able to say, girls are this, women are bad, trash, those other words that we use around women.
41:33John Amaechi:And there's a logical pathway that elevates to dehumanizing anybody, calling people in boats cockroaches to the point where you can burn them in their rooms. So this pathway is well trodden. We understand it well. This isn't about not knowing masculinity is. This is about not liking the work of real masculinity and instead buying into the fault of the innocent.
41:59Elliott:I don't want to be really basic here and say, what do we do about it? But I'm going to, I know you, to me, you and Elliot are like positive influence, masculinity influences. You talk positively about what it means to be a man. You don't lead with division and anger. You lead with togetherness and hope and lessons of positive strength. How do we, why do you think it is, though, that the vast majority of boys, and the data is showing this, are listening more to not Andrew Tate anymore, actually, it seems they're moving away from Andrew Tate, they've realised that he's just a horrible pig. But they are listening to the influences that are leading with these messages of division and anger.
42:53Elliott:Is there anything you feel we're missing? What can we do besides in our parenting and in schools reminding boys of healthy masculinity? How do we get them to listen to positive influences more like you and Elliot?
43:11John Amaechi:I mean, I don't know that the answer is going to be listening to Elliot or me in particular.
43:17Elliott:Oh, I do. I want my boys to listen to you too. No pressure.
43:21John Amaechi:it is i'm happy for that right if it were to happen i'd be happy for it i'd welcome it but the reality is that we we have to there's a delusion in place that allows boys and men to in what they think is in good conscience but it's actually some kind of cognitive dissonance endorse these types of horrible people right they haven't moved away from andrew tate because they think he's a pig they've moved away from andrew tate because he's wearing if we were to use another analogy he's actually wearing the nazi flag and they need to move to somebody who isn't wearing it but is saying all the right words right so he's just too obvious it's why they've moved away from him but it's not because they don't agree with them it's just he's too obvious and you align with him and you can instantly find yourself on the outs you align with somebody else who's a little more subtle and you can still find yourself perhaps not publicly pilloried.
44:17John Amaechi:So we have to defeat this delusion, right? There's nothing to reclaim with masculinity. We should remove this language. There's nothing to reclaim. Masculinity is personal and flexible. If we help young boys to realize masculinity is personal, personalized and flexible and calls to reclaim masculinity are these mask attempts to to reverse hard-earned rights for women that's fundamentally it right it's it masks these these the resentment for the rights that women have earned and hardened and not completely earned and then a reorientation around strength too the idea that real strength means allowing people choices and rights and you can't with strength ease your own pain by stripping other people of their rights or dignity these types of things and then helping men to find ways to genuinely connect with other men in really intimate ways because toxic masculinity to me stems from men's choices to be absent of genuine intimacy and instead embrace fear and hatred that is usually towards women and other men.
45:33John Amaechi:It's one of the things that's confusing as a gay man, why I look at so many men who seem to hate women whilst desiring them. They covet this thing that they hate, and that's bound to cause really negative emotional stains, right? So maybe it's back to the beginning and saying, at an early age, when your boy starts talking about how much they love their friend, endorse that without fear. When they start talking about interests, whether they be deep in the library in books or writing poetry or playing a sport that's not somehow appropriate for boys, I don't know, endorse these things, recognizing that masculinity in its ultimate form in a contemporary sense is personalized and flexible and will evolve over time because that's how we're all still here right as human beings we're all still here because we're not still wearing loincloths pretending that they're still saber-toothed tigers how do you see this showing up in the workplace i know you do a lot of consultancy and work with corporations do you see what we've spoken about here in terms of this kind of masculine idea and energy showing up through leaders in the workplace and how does that show up Oh, for sure.
46:54John Amaechi:Leadership is still intrinsically entwined with masculinity. It's remarkable, really. There's lots of people who think that strength in terms of overbearingness, of intimidation, our leadership qualities and traits. There's lots of people who think independence of thought. And I think independence of thoughts can be important, right, in critical thinking. But they mean by independence of thought an imperviousness to the evidence or opinions of others. And they think this is leadership. And they also think this stems from a masculine patriarchal archetype. And I just think I want to win, right?
47:32John Amaechi:So I'm, anybody who knows me, even in passing, I am strong opinioned and willful and I like to be right. But more than I like to be right, I like to win. And so my certainty is tempered by that. I want other people's opinions. I'm open to being wrong because being right is not as important to me as winning. And masculinity, the opposite is true. every moment is about a win instead of instead of it's about being right sorry instead of considering this long-term thriving win and so that makes a life that is constantly at battle and never consensual never collaborative never intimate in terms of building relationships
48:25Elliott:and you talk about this as well in your latest book it's not magic the ordinary skills of extraordinary leaders which I was very thankful I got a copy of a few weeks ago so I've been having wonderful it's brilliant it explores the mindset and intentions needed to truly influence others what lessons from that do you think could help us as parents teachers or coaches when we're raising
48:52John Amaechi:boys I think the first chapter talks about cultivating authentic presence right I think There's way too much out there about this. What's it called? Executive presence, which I think is like how to do man cosplay for everybody. How to do masculine cosplay is what executive presence is to me. It's nonsense. But being able to cultivate an authentic presence that's very obviously you, even if it's curated for work, but it's calm and credible. It's such an important thing. Anybody who's a parent watching this knows you're feeling it today in one way. I told you earlier about my sister who sent my niece off to school this morning with a big drama about having the right kind of bag.
49:37John Amaechi:And the idea that we can have an authentic, firm, robust, but calm and credible presence is just important every single morning, right, for teachers, every single lesson, every moment, and for leaders broadly so important. I think that's one of them to think of. One of the chapters I talk about how to navigate fractious environments. And I think we just, I mean, we could describe the current moment in many things, but it is certainly a fractious environment full of change, full of disruption, full of conflict. Being able to manage that is important. One of the things that men miss out on is reflective practice if they follow the norms of that kind of toxic masculinity.
50:21John Amaechi:Because one of the things about toxic masculinity is about having an experience, whether it's a bar fight or a knockdown dragger argument with your partner or something else and then it happens and then you it's gone that's that is a tenant of masculinity it happened it's gone why are we still talking about this many women listening will know that phrase right why why are we still talking that happened yesterday two weeks ago a year i cheated on you two years ago why are we still talking about this and it's it's this idea and and in the book i talk a lot about how reflective practice is a key to this and not in this woo-woo way.
50:56John Amaechi:I'm a scientist, but the idea that you have an experience and then you dedicate time to thinking about it, its implications for you in the future to enable you to grow and adapt and learn and be a better person and to allow your masculinity in this context to evolve. So I think that's really important. Yeah. These are the types of things that help us. And again, the reason the book is called It's Not Magic is because none of this stuff is complex it is energy expensive it is effortful but there is nobody who's currently a capable operating member of society who can't use one or many of these tools and i think that's
51:39Elliott:a great lesson for parents as well but you know with my boys if they behave in a way that i do not like then spending time with them talking to them why did you do that how did that make you feel how do you think that made somebody else feel that instilling that reflective practice in them is something that any parent can do and will hopefully have positive influences on them
52:02John Amaechi:as they're growing up it really by the way it really will it's not even a question it will have a positive influence because even what you just described there which is really it's really it's kind of basic but really clever you know what it does is it helps people to be prescient it helps people to be able to predict the future because once they've examined what led up to an argument it's not just looking at the argument or the disruptive thing or the how you got kicked out of the classroom that day what led up to that the moment you start to examine that you suddenly when you're in the midst of that build-up the next time you suddenly oh i know where this is leading that so at least you can say absolutely yes i want all that smoke i'm going to follow this pathway to its inevitable end but you also have another choice yeah we can say this led to an argument that really damaged my relationship with my partner and do i want that and i'm going to avoid it by saying look last time this happened it's led to a really big argument so i'm gonna i'm not walking away from you i'm just gonna i'm gonna go out in the garden i'm gonna take 30 minutes and de-escalate just imagine it's like you can see your life split into the what-ifs and that reflective practice that you just described allows people to do that
53:17Elliott:i'm also gonna make a note that john amici said something i said was basic but really clever um you get tattooed on your on your arm yeah yeah next episode we're gonna see it
53:31John Amaechi:see now now you said it i'm going to expect it i'm going to tune in i don't know i don't know where it's going to go is it going to be like a necklace around the day right across the chest even even better even better you'd have to come back for um season four john so you can see the the tattoo i might get one myself listen i don't i know i don't know how long i don't have any tattoos i don't know how long it takes to get done but i i can just simply watch the next few episodes and see them happen.
53:56Elliott:This afternoon, I'm out. Looking back, what do you wish your younger self had known about being a man? It's a big question as well.
54:08John Amaechi:It is. I suppose I was so fortunate to have a different kind of mum and a different kind of family. That was always a weird, emotionally literate kid.
54:18Elliott:What do you mean different kind of mum and different kind of family?
54:20John Amaechi:I had a mum that never imposed on me anything other than the idea that masculinity was personal and flexible and if I was doing it it must be if I was doing it and it was doing no harm to myself or others it was an appropriate form of masculinity yeah if I wanted to we used to go on holiday to to real it's kind of mandatory for people from Stockport real sub-center for those who've been a certain age right and then we go to rudderland castle as well loved it and i remember going to rudderland castle and ending up being absolutely intoxicated by this woman who was sat there on a bench wearing a big fur coat surely bassy oh wow i didn't know my mom knew i didn't know and i just sat there talking to this woman in a big fur coat about her fur coat and i thought it was perfectly appropriate and my mum didn't say anything about it and it was perfectly appropriate yeah right and it's just like that is the the experience I had I was definitely assaulted from the outside about ideas about me as a person was I really a man if I spoke like I spoke because I spoke like I speak right was I really a proper masculine man if I didn't play sport because I wasn't really a fan of it you know I didn't play until I was 17 I avoided rugby at my school I was assaulted by that externally but the picture I had in my head internally I'm her clever boy okay and finally
55:45Elliott:what advice would you give parents raising boys who want them to grow into kind resilient men
55:51John Amaechi:tell them early tell them often that masculinity if it does no harm to them or to other people is who they are that it will be personal and flexible and evolve over time show them with your actions with the look on your face that when they do stuff subject to doing no harm to them and others, that you don't worry about whether it's normative, whether it hits some kind of ridiculous stereotype or marker of masculinity, that you just want them to be operating in a way that helps them create connection. Encourage them to have close friends who are boys. Encourage them to do stuff in your house, not just stuff out of the house.
56:31John Amaechi:Don't rely on that idea that many people do that boys can be left on their own to do stuff outside. And it's not that they can't ever do that because I think it's important for every child to be able to do that. But allow them to do stuff in your house, encourage them, whether it's the, my sister loves was jig, jigsaws, I don't really understand what they are, but she likes them very much and encourage them to do stuff with you that you might think that they no longer want. And then the other thing is many families in all the best will in the world. They believe there's a point where intimacy for boys with them as parents becomes less important and fathers start shaking their son's hand instead of hugging them.
57:15John Amaechi:And mothers, they acquiesced the first rebuff, you know, that teenage, ah, mom, don't. We're a family while consent is important. We're a family that shows our affection. And I'm going to tell you because that's what we do when people say things that are meaningful to us.
57:34Elliott:My son left for secondary school today and tried to just give me a wave. Bye, mum. Bye, mum. And I grabbed his face and kissed it all over and said, I love you.
57:48John Amaechi:But know this. Know this, Jolie, right? He, not today perhaps and hopefully never, but he will at some point experience somebody trying to impugn his identity and tell him that he is awful or misshapen or something else. And just at the right moment, will flood back into his mind that image with a completely new context, not rejected, not embarrassed, but like sunshine in the dark. That's what we can do for each other. It's lovely.
58:22Elliott:Thank you, Chan.
58:23John Amaechi:Amazing.
58:24Elliott:What a conversation this has been. I'm going to have to go now because I'm... I am a mess. Go on, get your tattoo, Jodie. Got your appointment at 10. I got my tattoo when Greg's pasting. That's been amazing, John. You've earned it.
58:39John Amaechi:It's been incredible.
58:40Elliott:Thank you so much, yeah. What a conversation. We're so grateful to you. And go and buy John's book, It's Not Magic, The Ordinary Skills of Extraordinary Leaders. It is absolutely brilliant. And there we go. if there is a copy of it on the screen. Thank you, John. Thank you so much. Thank you, John. It's my pleasure. We appreciate you so much. Thank you so much.
From the publisher
Joeli and Elliott sit down with, yes you heard us right, John Amaechi to talk all things sports, identity and masculinity, emphasizing the importance of emotional intelligence and intimacy among men. John reflects on his experiences as a latecomer to basketball and how it shaped his understanding of masculinity.
They also roll up their sleeves and delve into the societal pressures surrounding masculinity, the need for empathy, and the responsibility of parents and coaches in nurturing healthy relationships. John advocates for a redefinition of masculinity that embraces vulnerability and connection, urging listeners to foster environments where boys can express their emotions freely and develop meaningful relationships: it's right up our street.