The Manosphere After the Camera Stops

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0:43Ineke Houtenbos:This episode is supported by Movember, the leading charity changing the face of men's health.

0:55welcome back to to be a boy podcast with me elliot ray and me jolly braley so if you haven't seen inside the manosphere you must have been living under a rock or you're just a really really busy working parent but just like adolescents it's throwing the issue of the manosphere back into the national news the documentary was fascinating viewing and it did a great job of raising awareness of how these influencers function, but many pointing out that they wanted more to dig deeper into why boys are interested in this content in the first place, the impact of the manosphere on boys and girls, and as worried parents, what can we do about it?

1:34So welcome back to our first To Be A Boy returnee, Inika Houtenbus, Senior Safeguarding Trainer at the NSPCC, who's going to help us to understand this all. Inika, welcome back. Hey, thank you so much for having me. I'll do my best setting me up here. You were great last time. So I have full confidence in you. Thank you so much for having me. It's great being here again and seeing you folks. It's great to have you. So the documentary, it's been the talk of the town. What did you think about it from a personal and professional perspective? What were your reflections? I didn't know who a lot of the people in it were.

2:14Some of them kind of look familiar, but I kind of found it very eye-opening from the point of view of how entrenched those thoughts were and how important those thoughts were more so to their visibility on the sites rather than what they actually truly believed. I think one of them even said something like, you know, I don't really care what you think about what I'm saying. I'm just doing it for views. and that that kind of threw me a little bit because i was i was really kind of of the belief that this was something they staunchly like believed in i think some of them do but i think it is about that that whole concept of rage baiting and he explained it i think very well like the more extreme i am the more views i'm gonna get the more money i'm gonna make and that kind of set the scene for me then a little bit in terms of some of the um reasoning behind why you would say something like that do you know what i mean yeah i think for me i knew that they were grifters but i think i think it really highlighted how calculated they are yeah especially the hs ticky-tocky he knows exactly what he's doing whether he believes it or not he knows i say these things kids are gonna watch they're gonna buy my investment program I'm gonna make more money I don't really care the impact and that's life we live in a capitalist world I'm making my money I care about myself and I think that was an eye-opener for everyone and it was like yeah sickening really sickening yeah so in terms of the conversation about the manosphere what should parents like really understand about it if they haven't seen the documentary It's great.

4:03You should watch it if you haven't. Definitely. I think a lot of people go away with a lot of questions, maybe more than answers. What would you say parents should understand away from just the documentary and the sensational news about it? At its core, what should parents understand about the manosphere? I think they need to understand a couple of different things. It fills a void for boys who are trying to figure out who am I, right? Which they're supposed to do, you know, as teenagers, who am I? Where do I fit in the world? All that kind of stuff. I think it's important to be aware that boys don't necessarily look for this stuff or necessarily search for somebody because they have certain ideas.

4:42Somebody might be funny. Somebody might be a bit, you know, testing the boundaries a little bit, which resonates with young people because that's the phase in their life. It's what they're supposed to do. So they might think it's kind of funny. But it's also that boys don't necessarily go searching for this content and that very often it hides behind content that really feeds into insecurities for anybody, right? How do I look? Gym bros, healthy eating, being positive about yourself. These messages hide in those algorithms very often. So if you're a kid and you're just online and you don't really know how an algorithm works and you're like, yeah, I want to get a little bit buffer.

5:23I want to go to the gym. It's really easy now to fall into this kind of content because they're very closely linked. And I think that's a really important nuance to understand around this concept. And that's the worrying thing, isn't it? It's not like all kids are going out looking for this and searching these guys. They're just online. They're looking at, you know, how to make money, start a business, health and fitness. And this gets promoted to them. What do we know about how common the content is? We've been working with Vodafone since 2023. So they did an analysis of a thousand parents of 11 to 14 year olds and 4 ,000 teachers, right?

6:05So what they found was that 59 % of boys who were online didn't look for this content at all. They were just doing innocent searches about stuff that they might be interested in, like football or health. And the algorithm pushed that on them. And 52 % say that they have engaged with that content with ties from the manosphere. And 69 % of boys have been exposed to online content that promotes misogyny. So there's different levels of it that they're kind of seeing. So they might hear a concept, find that interesting, land on the algorithm, and then start getting fed more and more extreme points of view, which I think often, I mean, you're talking 11 to 14.

6:54There's a lot you're learning about the world. There's a lot you're learning about what it takes to be who I am. so all of these influences are really really powerful and it's and it's making a big difference one in five parents said that they actually noticed a change in language from their boys in terms of how they talked about women and girls 70 percent of teachers saw the rise of excess language in the classroom so it feels insidious feels very kind of low threshold in terms of how to search for this like we're not sitting on the dark web you know it's there it's there and that's what you think and that's important because i feel like there have been some people have tried to downplay the influence of the manosphere of like oh we can't blame it all on that of course there's many issues as to why we are here and why misogyny and sexism is in the increase but the manosphere is real and our kids are seeing it not all of our kids but a lot of our kids are seeing it and it's not always their fault they're going online that the messages and the content is getting fed to them they're seeing it and it's influencing how they are thinking and so i think we all have to like be aware of what's going on even if you think your kid is a good kid who isn't looking at that content they're probably seeing it from their friends i was talking to a parent the other day and they were saying that the teacher in their school a woman was getting the homework given to them by some of the boys and at the bottom was oh miss can you make me a sandwich at lunchtime when they handed their when they handed their homework in and they're seeing just this rise of these young boys that are like 12 years old just disrespecting their female teachers and like asking them to make them lunch and stuff like that and it's ridiculous so I think yeah we need to be aware of how widespread this is um and I think one thing that the documentary didn't do which I was personally a bit disappointed by was talk about the impact this is having on boys and on girls in terms of the increase of violence against women and girls but also the harmful impacts on boys as well so can you talk a little bit about the impacts like how does this manifest in regards to our boys and girls their behavior their outcomes well i mean at the very core i think you know it puts women and girls in in danger that puts them at risk and i think they know that So they're starting to change their behavior, which is not what we want because we want everybody to experience the world in all of its glory, right?

9:24You don't want kids to be scared of being themselves. But even boys who don't necessarily subscribe to this thinking feel pressure because it is very kind of alpha male driven. It is very kind of driven around, you know, I'm a tough guy. So it's hard to kind of go against that a little bit. So even if they're not into it, it's difficult to get themselves out of that thinking. So it impacts on both. And we see the violence against women and girls is at epidemic levels. And we have to recognize that that's coming from somewhere. And that has to be challenged in a way that allows for learning. right but i think one of the things that they were saying is that there's also an intersection of the degradation if you know what i mean that it's not just misogynist it's often also linked to racism or anti-semitism so there's there's deeper kind of concepts coming through what we think of as misogyny that are actually linking to a lot more different types of radicalization And that's a very slippery slope.

10:39Ineke Houtenbos:I think that I find that really interesting that you said girls are adapting their behavior because they intrinsically know in their DNA that they're becoming less safe. And we know that girls are more likely now to say that they should do as they are told. You know, if a man tells them to do something, they should do as they are told by a man than perhaps our generation were. and that you know I've been wondering where that was coming from obviously they are also exposed to this content online where women should know their place and their places in the home and they should be making babies and shutting up but my experience of girls younger girls is that they they behave much more powerfully than I did when I was younger yet the data is showing that actually they're behaving in a much more different way to men and male behavior and that's so interesting that you say it could it comes from a place of knowing deep down that actually you're less safe now in this new world yeah yeah and i think i think the the the paradox in it is that alongside the manosphere we also have the rise of kind of the trad wife influencers You know, really traditional, you know, female roles.

12:06And the funny thing about it is that's kind of what feminism was all about. But they position themselves as anti-feminist, whereas the feminist movement is like, no, we should be able to do what we want. If we want to stay at home, we should be able to do that. If we want to go out and work, we should be able to do that. If we want to do a combination, we should. But they're both positioned very kind of anti-feminism. And then, you know, we've got terminology like toxic masculinity as well. And I think it's a funny one because we kind of skipped over the conversation about masculinity. You know, and you're doing all that work, Elliot, you know, in your lane in terms of what does masculinity mean?

12:49And that's a positive thing and it's a good thing. Whereas boys are only hearing masculinity linked to toxicity. So they think that the message is that masculinity is toxic. And these manosphere kind of influencers hop onto that idea, whereas actually like everything, it's the nuance. Masculinity is not toxic in and of itself. It's a beautiful thing and should be celebrated and nurtured. But when it's toxic, it becomes dangerous. And I think that nuance gets lost in the manosphere and the tarad wife kind of spheres.

13:24Ineke Houtenbos:because we are also seeing a rise in people online being really negative about men and boys as well right I mean I see that a lot I see lots of people posting saying things like male loneliness epidemic you're not lonely enough or you know like really malicious things about men and boys and of course boys like I get it from it if you've been at the hand of masculinity that is toxic if you've experienced abuse harassment the patriarchy and it's full then I get why you're angry but at the same time for boys that are not responsible for that behavior when all they're seeing are women and girls saying horrible things about their sex inevitably they're going to want to go somewhere where they feel safe and protected and like somebody's standing up for them and often the manosphere yeah and and it kind of goes back i think to obviously you know i'm not i'm not an expert in algorithms but it's just my reflection is that it's it's almost the same kind of mechanism at play in terms of the more extreme i am the more likes i'm gonna get so rather than it being a nuanced conversation about you know the roles of men and women have changed you know in a relatively short period of time.

14:49And how do we figure that out together? How do we figure out, you know, who we are in relationship to each other? And how do we work so that we can get the most out of each other? Nobody's going to click on that link. Like nobody cares, right? They want to hear somebody be super extreme because that raises a conversation. That's like rage baiting almost, you know, that people are doing. And the disconcerting thing is then is that young people maybe who spend a lot of time online think that that's real and think that that's a real conversation or is actually no we're we're fishing for likes here yeah and i think that like the kind of positive content is never going to compete because no it doesn't get the clicks right it's not sensational it's not negative it doesn't make headlines it can't compete i think it needs to be embedded in how we do things in regards to the schooling system and family and more of a day-to-day real life setting i think it's also important like we've spoken about the violence against women and girls and the impact on girls but also to point out this is bad for boys as well they're being sold a dream here this is not reality it's not going to work out very well for you this is not success all the things they're saying are it's a lie basically and movember have pointed out from their research that a lot of the boys that engage with this content they actually have worse mental health outcomes over time higher psychological distress higher steroid use higher gambling type behaviors like it has a negative impact on these boys like they are the victims you know in this as well so it doesn't work for for any of our young people um so let's talk a little bit about what you think are the signs of a child who is like vulnerable i think every child is probably vulnerable but are there particular young boys that you see through nspcc that come to you with particular traits that you say okay that may be a particularly vulnerable person that maybe a parent needs to needs to um stay stay even closer to i think that yeah and we do believe that we believe that children are are vulnerable just because they're they're children and they kind of haven't had the experiences in in life that a lot of us as adults have had.

17:04And that's why we have a responsibility to keep them safe and create safe environments for them. But unfortunately, we know that that doesn't always happen. There are children who are experiencing abuse. There's children who are experiencing loneliness. There's kids who are out there, you know, as a very natural part of being a teenager is trying to figure out who I am. You know, what do I like to wear? What music do I like to listen to? All of those things are actually very natural parts of growing up. But if you have a child who's experienced kind of adverse childhood experiences like abuse or neglect or anything like that, that sense of loneliness and ability to grab an identity becomes even more difficult.

17:50And that's exactly where these people then fall in because this kid's potentially not having anyone give them a good example there's nobody in their life who kind of cares what they're doing there's nobody who's talking to them about you know what's going on for you how are you feeling how are you experiencing the world obviously we wouldn't talk to kids like that but generally speaking that level of interest there's a lot of young people walking around who don't really have that and i think i said it the last time you know that i was on here as well if if we don't talk to children and young people about some of these issues, the internet will.

18:31And so we have to be there as almost a counterbalance. You know, so I hear what you're saying. What are you looking at? What does that mean to you? You know, how are you interpreting that in terms of your relationships towards other people? They're really complex questions that we have to educate ourselves to be able to ask kids, because that's not necessarily how we were phrased. I mean, I'm a kid of the seventies. Do you remember? You're like, go outside. You cannot come back home because once you were home, that was it. You couldn't go outside again. Right? It's just, it's not how we grew up.

19:09The good old days. They were the good days. Can we go back? Yeah. And nobody could take a picture of you doing anything goofy. Like if you weren't there, it never happened. There's a lot there that it's not just, you know, children who've been born into this online world. And a lot of us have had to adjust to the online world. But ultimately, just as it would have been our responsibility to make sure that our kids, that we told our kids, don't go down to that neighborhood. Everybody knows that neighborhood is bad news, right? That's how we grew up. Yet we're not doing that with kids because we think you're safe, because you're upstairs in your room.

19:48but you're not you're hanging around in the neighborhood you should not be it yeah i struggle with this i've got a three-year-old and a 10 10 year old and i found with my 10 year old over the last year i've had to just be super honest about the world and part of it pains me because i want it i want her to be innocent i want to just be a kid and just run around the field with daffodils and live this authentic life. I want you to frolic. Yeah, just like, you know, enjoy yourself. Just be innocent. But I know that's not good enough. That's not good enough because she needs to learn how to treat other people first and foremost, how to protect herself.

20:26But also now we have this new thing, smartphones and social media that is giving her and will be giving her through means, friendships, phones, et cetera, content that is harmful. And so I need to be, and my wife, we need to be as you say another voice that's hard though for parents isn't it like it's tricky right to get into that mindset of i've got a nine-year-old i have to have a conversation about sexism and misogyny and racism and all these big adult topics like how do how do parents get into the mind frame of doing that when you're you weren't you weren't used to that from growing up yourself i think a lot of it is challenging ideas right i'll give you an example so my daughter i think she was like four and she came out of school and she was like, this boy was mean to me.

21:14And I was like, which boy? Where's his parents? Let's have a conversation. But the teacher was like, oh, well, you know, when a boy's mean to you, it just means he likes you. And I just thought, we're still doing this. I'm sorry. You know what I mean? Can we not do this? So it's things like that that you know in in a very kind of age-appropriate way you know without using those big words that might be scary you know it's like you can go down to your four-year-old but no baby if somebody hurts you that is bad that is always bad and people who hurt you don't have you all right so that's kind of the basis because we want that to be the foundation so that if they're ever in a situation where somebody hurts them, they know this is bad.

22:04This is not supposed to be happening. Talk about it. Talk to somebody about it. And that kind of leads me to that next thing. I worked as a child line supervisor for many years. And what I found really interesting was that a lot of kids would say, I love my parents. They're amazing parents, but I can't talk to them about what's going on for me. Right. And we would be like, help me understand that. What is that about and they'd say because they don't have any problems and I was like for sure your parents have problems no but again it's that old-fashioned thinking right of you know we don't talk about issues in front of our kids and again I would challenge that gently I would kind of and obviously age appropriate talk to your kids like something happened to me in work and somebody said something to me that I didn't really like like what like what do you think you know you can be doing something and engage them and think, well, what are your thoughts about that?

22:59You know, what do you think I should do? Because it creates a framework for a dialogue that we have in this house. If there's something that I'm not too sure of, it's normal for us to go, where do you hear this that happened to me today? That's what we're trying to create. That's great advice because my eldest loves it when I go to her with a problem. she's like my daddy's asking for my opinion like yeah she she feels so empowered and i get what you're saying then it will help her to do the same with me as well great advice when i need to impress someone with a gift i go straight to 1-800-Flowers there's a reason they've spent 50 years as the floral authority every stem is hand selected by a vetted florist and with same day delivery nationwide 100 satisfaction guaranteed that's why millions go to 1-800-Flowers to celebrate life's most important moments order now for up to 40 off don't miss out on this limited time offer act now and save up to 40 at 1-800-Flowers.com slash spotify that's 1-800-Flowers.com slash spotify so if a parent suspects their child is watching the manosphere they're looking at these guys consuming the content what should they do about it what's the conversation they should be having i think it starts before even having the conversation i think it starts with educating yourself because what i found whenever i watched the documentary was that there was a lot of language being used and i had no idea what it meant i had no idea what it meant right so i had to kind of start looking up some of this terminology and as i was doing it i was kind of like is this the flag is this what we're looking for as parents?

24:45Cause I don't know about you, but do you ever have that when you're having a conversation with your kid and they're like using language, you're like. Yeah.

24:54Ineke Houtenbos:I can't even remember what it said, but I was like, what, what, what are you talking about? It was a word that he used for a lie. I can't even remember the words. I was like, what does that mean? He was like, her mom wants to lie and it's always meant a lie. it's like i think it has but okay go to school all right yeah i'll take your word for it so so i i came up with a couple right so i'm gonna see if you guys know because i had no idea is this a game is this a game yeah the game right okay so set up the game what are we doing here so you're gonna ask us a few so i've kind of looked up some words both that were used in the documentary because i had no idea what they were and i think this was one of the ones that was used a lot that i literally had to like um look up on my phone so i'm gonna see if you guys know right so um what does mog mean that was the word he used this morning that was it that is crazy it means lying you told me it means you lying it means to outshine someone physically so if you're mogging someone it means that like you're looking better than them so you're making them look ugly because you look so good wow i had no idea what that meant the other one that i found looks maxing yeah you mentioned that yeah i've heard of that that's something about like from my understanding it's like making the most out of your looks right like it's just because what you You know, they do the, like hit their jawline to make it tighter.

26:30That's like looks maxing.

26:32Ineke Houtenbos:That's mewing, isn't it? When you do that. Yeah. And that, is that about having a chiseled jaw, mewing? Yes. And then looks maxing. Yeah. So looks maxing is all about like making the most of your attributes by either going to the gym, going to, you know, eating healthy, you know, even sleep maxing, you know, we knew. But again, it shows how easy it is to kind of go into that atmosphere. Because like, I'm not sleeping too well. So now I'm looking for tips. And all of a sudden, now I'm talking about Lux Maxing. It's so quick, the loop. Get my kids to go to bed on time. I just call it Sleep Maxing.

27:15Ineke Houtenbos:And then they might go. That's you. I'm Sleep Maxing. All my kids are out. Cold. Eight o 'clock. Come on, kids. You need to Sleep Max. I feel like I start Sleep Maxing. nice guys. What was the other one he used? Oh yes. So you know how they talk about the red pill and the blue pill? I wasn't sure, even though I love the matrix, totally into it, love it. I couldn't remember, but there's also a black pill. Yeah. So the red pill, right, is the one I think that Neo is given in the movie. And that's where you adopt the belief that society hides the truth from you. yeah and then the blue pill is that you remain unaware yeah we're blue pills right yes 100 % obviously so and then the black pill is that attractiveness is biologically fixed so if you're inferior you're just going to be inferior that's it there's nothing you can do about it Wow, interesting.

28:18Ineke Houtenbos:I don't think I knew that different. I knew that red pill meant that you can see the world for what it really is. Yeah. You are like, you have the insight and you are not pretending anymore. And you finally had the blindfold lifted and can see everything as it is. I didn't realise black pill was about that there's the hierarchy and you can't break out of that hierarchy. Yeah. and that goes into the incel thing right the involuntary celibate yeah which is super super dangerous and very very dark but one of the things that i found as well in it is is that concept of the uh because i think at one point what did he called him a soy boy and she called um boy a soy boy and i was like obviously it's not a good thing but what does it mean so it is a feminized insult used to mock men who are perceived as weak because like you wouldn't you don't eat meat you're like a vegan so therefore you like they hadn't made that link sorry boys but yeah yeah so yeah so it's so interesting because there was so much language that they used within that that atmosphere and one of the the men in the documentary was also talking about that concept of alpha and beta, right?

29:46And the alpha. And it's really interesting because I am a little bit of an animal kingdom nerd and I love wolves. And I was like, I thought that wasn't like a thing. So again, I dug a little bit deeper into that. And the whole concept of the alpha and the beta came from a research study that was done in like the 70s, yeah, 1970. But they observed wolves in captivity and saw that the wolves that were in captivity would fight for dominance. And he based his theory on that and then realized his mistake and then spent the rest of his career trying to say, there is no such thing as Alpha and Beta because wolves are just led by elders.

30:32So the elders teach the children where to find the food, how to hunt, and they lead. And really interestingly as well, that the strongest members of the pack are usually at the back because they're kind of, you know, making sure that they're safe, that the whole pack is safe. And that's where you lead from, which kind of, again, goes against this whole mythology around the alpha and beta concept, which has been disproven literally since the 70s. but we're still holding on to it. So it's all those kind of thought patterns that unfortunately we as parents now have to start breaking down and saying that's not actually right.

31:18Ineke Houtenbos:He needs to talk to HP Tiki Tiki or whatever his name is. What's his name? We'll keep it as that. Let's keep it as HP. I like that. We're not even going to say your name correctly. That's how much we don't even like you. so yeah it does talk to the whole this is a lie this is a this is this fabricated nonsense and it's it's not reality okay so let's let's a parent they've got a 12 year old boy watching this content they're really worried they are trying to have conversations about positive masculinity and they're trying to bring in role models into the family and they're they're trying to counteract all the negativity they're seeing online but it's maybe not working actually their kid's still saying sexist things around the dinner table their kid is still still watching this stuff and he goes his friend's house like they're still worried what what should a parent do at that point this is one of the hardest things i think that we learn as parents is that you have to enforce rules consistently all the time every time and that's really hard because half the time we're exhausted and we've got I wonder bar the thing from below but it's about how do we talk to each other how do we engage with each other how do we um relate to one another and sometimes that is about using your authority as a parent to start to restrict certain things because they need that and I know what kind of feels a little bit uncomfortable because we don't want to be those kind of parents that you know you're here to be seen and not heard type thing you know we don't want to go to that authoritarian but they do need guidance they do need that so maybe it is about those friends are not a good influence on you so we're going to try and get you into something else that phone you're not using it according to the rules of the home you're visiting sites that you're not allowed to visit so your phone gets taken off you the difficulty is that of course the child is going to freak out and hate you.

33:23And potentially you can say that to your face. But it is about recognizing that, of course, they are testing boundaries. And we forget that, I think, sometimes. We think about the terrible twos and we take it for granted that the terrible twos are just going to happen. But when teenagers get into like after that puberty thing, their brain chemistry is changing they're out there to test boundaries all the time so i would say you know how protective and patient you tried to be with them when they were two and they're terrible twos that's exactly the input that they need when they're a bit older and we forget that sometimes because we think you're big now you're going to big school and it's like no you're not no you're not emotionally, psychologically, physically, your brain chemistry, you're not.

34:14You need that guidance from someone to say, that's not okay. And we can have that conversation about it. But if that's not going anywhere, then we're going to have some sanctions around that. And I know that that's super, super uncomfortable, but it's better in the long run for a child to know you are my safe landing space because if you need to make a decision for my best interests you're gonna do it yeah I love this part of the conversation because I thought I feel like we have spoken so much about gentle parenting you know as a society in England over the last years in the UK and when I think back about my parenting how I was parented it was so different a little bit of gentle parenting was in there sometimes but there was more like you know just do what I say and that's it and who's the boss and when I think about my teenage years between maybe 14 and 18 I wouldn't be where I was without that I needed that if my parents were gentle and let me do whatever I wanted to do I would have got in trouble and of course at the time I probably would have wanted them to just let me do what I wanted to do because I thought at the time I was you know the boss and I knew what I was doing but I didn't I was a kid I didn't know what was best for me and I think sometimes we're scared to just be parents and scared for our kids not to like us and put our foot down and have authority.

35:36I think we're actually discouraged from doing that, you know? Yeah. And people judge you, don't they? Yeah. I mean, you know, I remember the best advice that I ever got when I was rearing my children when they were little was that other people will judge you for how you parent, but they don't have to live with the consequences of you not parenting your child in that moment right so i had you know she's gonna love me for this i had a little two year old who literally demanded ice cream for breakfast and when obviously the answer was no we would have massive screaming meltdowns and i needed to not engage with that so i'm standing there looking like a crazy person sending my child right but she needed to learn that that's not gonna work you're not gonna get my attention this way yeah and i have to do it there and then yeah and we're not talking about we're not talking about beating your kids and stuff like that right we're just talking about putting in boundaries around like you can't take your phone to bed for example no or you're not going to get tiktok at 12 years old like things like that but all my friends have it i hate you and we're slamming doors and it's like okay all right i'm the worst I'll take it I'll take I'll take it I'm the worst in the world okay and so so let's let's build on that then so what else what else should parents be doing once they've done that okay now we are restricting and authority the conversations continue is there anything else that you can you can give parents that are listening I guess you know lead by example kids kids learn more by what they see happening than what you tell them.

37:20So if they see you behave in a certain way or see you talk in a certain way, they're going to pick up on that and actually promote healthy masculinity because there is a lot of content online as well that promotes healthy masculinity, you know, the stuff that you're doing. And we've got like dope black dads, you know, there is a lot of really positive masculinity out there. So again, when I'm talking about doing a little bit of research, it's about finding those websites and talking to your child about maybe, maybe look at this instead. Maybe we can learn from this instead and then follow through with that.

37:59You know, are there activities that, that these people are doing that you might want to get into, you know, whether it be footballers, whether it be, you know, whatever sport they might be interested in or authors or artists, whatever they're kind of interested in. be your child's algorithm I guess you know don't rely on the the internet's algorithm you be the child's algorithm to say this is the kind of content I want you to watch and learn from

38:25Ineke Houtenbos:Movember I think are doing a project on this they're looking for creators who are gonna do videos and content that is about positive masculinity I'm not sure how far down the road they are with it but I know that they are investing in that and creators that do promote really positive masculinity and jordan stevenson is always somebody that i try and encourage my kids to watch because i think he has this knack of like he's accessible to kids he uses accessible language he's quite cool and interesting and yet everything he says is um so insightful and thoughtful and positive you know positive about masculinity and anti-sexist so uh yeah he's always somebody I kind of point to as he's a good guy what's him yeah thank you so much for this it's been incredible how can parents access the NSPCC what resources support do you offer so we have loads of resources around internet safety but also a misogyny master class that you can access on NSPCC learning, just, you know, use whatever search engine you're using and stick that in there.