When Boys Care: The Quiet Superpower of Responsibility with Gavin Morgan

0:00Elliott:This episode is supported by Movember, the leading charity changing the face of men's health.

0:12Welcome back to To Be A Boy podcast with me, Elliott Ray.

0:16Elliott:And me, Joeli Brayley. And today we are joined by Gavin Morgan, co-CEO of Growing Together, a UK charity doing remarkable work, supporting young people to develop confidence, empathy, and a sense of purpose. Gavin has spent more than two decades working with vulnerable young people, and through that, he's seen the challenges many boys face today, from struggling with identity and belonging to navigating the pressures of modding masculinity. At Growing Together, Gavin and his team run innovative mentoring programs where teenagers are paired with younger children in nurseries, creating powerful opportunities for responsibility, connection and personal growth.

0:56So in this conversation we'll explore what boys really need to thrive, the role of positive male role models, why responsibility and purpose matter so much in adolescence and how communities can better support the next generation of young men. Welcome to the podcast Gavin. Hey thanks so much for having me, lovely to be here. So when I told my wife about what your company does she said oh that's so cute and I can imagine that's a response you get from everyone um you pair teenagers who are going through their own issues of mental health with toddlers with additional needs and I'm like that is that's amazing that sounds that sounds so amazing so talk to us about like the work you do how it works and what it aims to achieve yeah thank you so much for a lovely introduction and um yeah it's the it's the ability to give young people a new opportunity as a springboard to the rest of their lives so what we find is so our our work is held within positive and transpersonal psychology so i think that's really good to name up front it's about unconditional positive regard it's about bifocal vision so no matter what is bubbling here we're always holding to their higher potential, which is the amazing human being that everyone is.

2:15They might not see it in themselves, but it's always there and it's always present. So we use coaching as a really key tool to be curious about people. And that's the simple version of it. The detail of it is we go to schools and we invite them to identify teenagers who are struggling. We think they are the most deserving for this programme. They're the ones using a risk criteria or an eligibility tool that we use. It also helps us for our funders. And it's identifying teenagers who are having difficulties at school, difficulties at home with their peers, with life, with the pressures that society, culture, you know, puts them through.

2:57And what we say to them is, you're just amazing the way you are and you're going to believe it yourself because often they're having that sense of lack or a sense of disbelief in their own lives or in even worst case scenarios, people are projecting that onto them or they're not good enough, et cetera, et cetera. And we see that so often. So what happens is the schools identify eight young people. Usually 15 will take them through two cohorts in the year of school. But what will happen is they go through a recruitment session. So we tell them a little bit about the programme and it's their choice.

3:35It has to be their choice. That's the first buy-in. And if they want to go ahead, they'll sign all their paperwork and their consents and they'll come along and they'll do an induction. And then they'll start mentoring a child in nursery or primary school. The nursery or primary school have also identified those children who they think could really benefit because they've maybe got their own social communication challenges. and I'll share a little story later about one in particular that comes to mind. And what happens is over 16 weeks, these teenagers, they get down to the same level of eye level as the children and they play with them.

4:11They might read them a book. They might do some curriculum work in school, but ultimately they are a mentor for the child, but they're also a classroom assistant. They're volunteering in a different environment. And one of the reasons we think it's really powerful is these teenagers who might be struggling at school are getting out of their secondary school into the community to a primary or nursery school, and they have to take on that responsibility. We often ask them, why do you come to this programme when you're not always going to school? And they often say, I don't want to let the child down.

4:44If I don't turn up, that little child is waiting for them and they're not there. And I think that lived experience, that anchor, a real-life experience of mentoring, of volunteering, and supporting helps teenagers to have something they can hold on to because so many of them come back to us years later going that was one of the most significant moments in my life i remember it they'll give the facilitators hugs years later and it's the relationship isn't it everything about us as human beings is relational so when teenagers who don't think they're worth anything can realize they are through helping another it's amazing so one of the key questions we we hold is what if one of the keys to saving a generation and helping young people transform is to give them someone or something to care about so they go through their program they come out the other end they do a portfolio they get a qualification that holds them well especially if they're not doing much at school but more so is the the cv the skills the the testimonials from the school teachers that they can use to develop their positive pathways into the next steps of their life.

5:52So it's a lift experience. It's an opportunity to open a new door for them to meet for them.

5:59Elliott:I want my son to do this. Sounds amazing, isn't it? Yeah, there's just something about that sense of responsibility, isn't there? I heard Jamil saying the other day that this isn't tested and it's just something he's experienced. But boys, her favourite men tend to be men. who had mothers who were sick when they were younger because they had to look after them. So they had to care properly for somebody they loved and cared about. And it just seems to have, she said, you know, there just seems to be that thread running through her life. Anyway, interesting. Sorry, Gavin. No, you're absolutely right, because we're often trying to do things to teenagers.

6:42So what's beautiful about this programme, but about so many amazing projects and programmes that happen all over the UK is, for us, it's mentoring in reverse. It's not necessarily adults mentoring the teenagers. It's us going to the teenagers exactly where they are in the moment of life and saying, you're more than enough. You've got some great experiences and you can help these children. And actually that reverse mentoring, there's something very powerful about how you're taking them, it's two sets of vulnerable children and young people. and teenagers are just that little bit further along the life cycle than the children they're not they're not the adults they're not the parents they're not the teachers there's something the children do by looking up going you're not that far away from me maybe i could be like you in the future it's beautiful yeah it's a this is actually like it's blowing my mind it's something that is i guess on paper so simple but it is so heartwarming to know it exists and i think it's got massive potential and it's incredible it's incredible what kind of change do you see in the young people when they're given that opportunity to spend time with those toddlers how do you see them change and develop now they've got that sense of responsibility and caring for someone else yeah and we often use the word trans transformative or transformation but but also it's important to know like just a simple smile that's on a teenager that wasn't there before can be transformational and we're seeing 23 to 25 percent increase in mental health we're seeing their their positive growth mindset increasing we're seeing 93 percent of them going on to positive destinations let's be really really clear it's not about any one charity it's not about any one thing it's about the holistic whole family well-being all all of the support around that teenager or that child that gets in there so it's really important that we're partnering we're helping them to understand they can move on to other projects as well but through the projects they're coming i mean the realities they're coming at a time in their life when they don't want they might not want to be at school they might not be going to school they might be going to school but not going to class or they might be going to class that the teachers are recognizing they could really benefit whether it's um adverse childhood experiences social emotional behavioral needs they're having difficulties at home they're bringing they're bringing their sense of self that's forming at a time in their life when their neural pathways in their brains can change, you know, so actually by mentoring for 16 weeks, they're learning something new about themselves and giving something to others.

9:16So yes, they are coming in feeling alone, they're feeling depressed, they might be feeling anger, they might be feeling, you know, we know there's, you know, that whole suicidal ideation, the difficulties that teenagers are going through at life, and we're not over-focusing on that, we're asking them to focus on the child. And I think that reframing of where they are gives them that sense of self and what we did and also the group work that we do out either side of the mentoring is is group work with their peers and often they're coming in not wanting to talk you know like they're sitting going oh and actually over the weeks we use we use something that's called see and say so we're not just saying you're amazing we're not just saying oh you're wonderful we're using observation so we're saying i noticed today you got down to the child's eye level and they were really struggling but but i saw how you overcame that and over the weeks you can see them leaning in wanting more of that genuine praise and that genuine observation they're feeding off it but not only that you get to a place where not not in all cases but in many cases the group will self-regulate themselves they'll start praising each other they'll give them the feedback and there's just something about that community that forms within those eight teenagers at a time when none of them necessarily were talking to each other at the beginning towards the end they're so proud not only of themselves but of each other

10:36Elliott:um this is absolutely fascinating Gavin I'm loving every second of what you're saying uh could you could you give us a story tell us a story about a young person and teenager that's been through this program and what's happened to them like give us a give us a real human experience yeah so we have a boy um who really struggling in school finding it difficult at home but just really not finding a sense of place within school and feeling depressed and feeling not a great friendship group for example and struggling with his own identity and how he struggles with studying and school work and the pressures of life and so he gets paired with a child in the nursery school and this nursery child is a selected mute it's a little boy who's not talking his mum and his dad are really really worried they're they're you know they're trying everything they can they're doing everything right and this little boy isn't really speaking much outside of the home and the nursery staff are doing everything they can to support and doing great work and do you know what it took it took a teenager a teenager struggling in their own life to get emotional to get down to that level and they just started playing games.

11:56It wasn't British Sign Language, it was just they were communicating in a fun, playful way. And over the weeks, that little boy started talking to him, then to his peers, and the parents and the teachers were so happy. They were really like, wow, it's amazing. And yes, it was the school, it was the teachers, it was the support around them. But yes, it was also this teenager who probably didn't realise the impact he was having because he was just going through his own things. but this little boy in nursery thriving and speaking much more and more confidently and the teenager receiving praise and thanks and the parents coming back saying look thank you you don't know what you've done it's really helped and so this this teenage boy realizes he has so much more to give and actually decides to look at a career in early years and to college you know so that kind of thing i mean our program isn't specifically about a career pathway naturally it is for those that are interested and it's a lovely example of someone who and came along and not sure of themselves but actually through finding they can help someone else they've found

13:02Elliott:more in themselves than they had before wow i mean what a story and that's there's so many tangible benefits to a to a program like this as you have articulated as well because i mean we're We're desperate to get more men into caring roles because they're so female dominated. And that, again, is not good for role modeling for young boys. They don't often have role models to look up to. We know that one in three primary schools don't have a male teacher. Childcare is like 98 % women. So, you know, obviously that's not why you're doing it. But to see that it also had that impact is absolutely incredible.

13:46absolutely and it's interesting because that's not what we focus on but maybe we should maybe with with the wider local authorities and the schools we should we should think about that as a next step because you're right there is something about changing how we change and support society and we know that more male influences at different ages do help boys they do help them becoming men so that we we know from the the primary schools and the nursery schools how beneficial it has been having more boys on the program. So it's both for boys and girls. It's both, you know, a nice mix. And it's interesting.

14:18We use different sort of well-being scales and mental health scales. We do pre and post evaluation. And what we find is the statistics, the improvement is always really strong in the females, but it's even stronger in the males. They're getting something else out of this beyond. And also the nurseries are really, really appreciating more males coming in and reading them stories playing outdoors in the in the playground or inside or doing a bit of curriculum work and it challenges the teenagers who are maybe not that strong in their literacy their mathematics you know and actually it pushes them and encourages them to think about wow i can do this and it helps them then when we go back to the teachers in the secondary school they're saying they're seeing a difference because they're seeing them academically They'd be more willing to go into this, ask for help and be honest.

15:12They're willing to think about their aspirations for the future, which might just be part of the anchor for them to do something now that will help them move forward as well. So they're seeing a future, whereas before they were just trying to survive.

15:25Elliott:Yeah. I'll hand back to Elliot. Why do you think you see more of an improvement with the boys? So we're seeing their mental health really improving. we're seeing there's something around connection there's something around where you know if we think about we've often recognizing society sort of for for boys for males that emotional intelligence that sharing that softer side and can sometimes the stigma that's attached to that sometimes and it's harder for boys to open up to but actually being in a group of both males and females within their peer group allows them to share the experiences and yes like again it's very slow at the beginning.

16:03They're not sure. They're not safe. They don't feel comfortable sharing. But through the shared experience of the mentoring the children, they're beginning to open up a little bit more. They're gaining feedback. We're using coaching to ask them, why do you think that worked? What might they do differently? They're really realising that they've got a lot more inside themselves. At a time when females as well as males, but in terms of boys, they're often so fixated on the external world that actually we often don't nourish or are undernourished in our inside, in our internal world and there's something about them feeling proud about being reflective about sharing what's going well, what's not gives them the space to just grow and strengthen and yes some of them may still have a very strong outer mask that they wear because that's the way they survive through society but there's something inside of them that grows so in terms of psychological preparedness their sense of identity is becoming stronger because of the work they do and so this program helps that because it strengthens their positive growth mindset i feel like going to spend this whole podcast saying this is amazing this is incredible that's just the word for the podcast this is amazing um i guess what you're saying there and in regards to like the inner self we have lots of conversations about art boys and I feel like a lot of it is about their own sense of where they fit into the world externally and body image and and and their muscles and money and everything else but you're talking about the internal work the how do I feel about myself and I feel like we've we miss that a lot actually with young people and maybe with young boys we think they don't need so much of that internal work that they're not soft and gentle and they need support and kindness and kind words and i think what you're doing in terms of building community around that is is incredible i want to kind of zone out a little bit and talk about the boys that come into your programs what are some of the big things that you would say they are dealing with like what are the main issues they are they're coming to to growing together with yeah i mean it's and it's such a wide variety um you know but but it speaks to so much what's going on in boys lives at the moment So, yes, some of them are very depressed.

18:26Some of them are very feeling isolated. Some of them may not have strong friendship groups. They may have difficulties at home, struggling at school, bullying or being a bully, you know, as well. And feeling excluded. Poverty comes in in a big way. That's sort of linked to well-being from not having much and maybe being on free school meals. and some of them are care experience so they're in through the care system care and protection system and we've got young people that and actually things are okay things are not too bad they're they're not they're they're okay but actually this this could be uplifting them it could give them something else to do so we always work really closely with the schools to identify the most deserving young people who are struggling and the schools the guidance team themselves really think about the dynamics of the group that would work well and so sometimes we're taking on a really lovely group that are just struggling in different ways and this really helps them with an experience sometimes we're taking young people that have got social work intervention they're really struggling they're they're not even coming to school and this is a way to help them realize that there's other ways and to try things and as a bridge back into academic aspirations and coming back to school and I think you know self-harm is definitely there and I think suicidal thoughts or ideation is definitely there there's anger there is feeling lost feeling unheard you know really not being listened to and I think that's something that we hear from boys a lot and from everyone you know the more we're heard and listened to that that really does have an impact and so yeah there's a wide variety of teenagers that come to us the boys are bringing their own stuff with them and they may not share at all but maybe at some point they will and we often find just through that small group working of eight young people together mentoring the children but in the in the group space they're in afterwards where they're debriefing and we do a session around different areas that might be around what's working in school what's not what's working in in family and community and not, what's your aspirations for the future?

20:43They just begin to open up a little bit more about who they are. And I think that bringing that level of authenticity or honesty in however they share that is really helped strengthen their sense of self. You mentioned that a lot of the boys feel unseen and unheard. Like you've been doing this work for a couple of decades now. Do you feel like that has increased that sense of feeling unheard or are we just hearing about it more i i actually don't know is it that we're just shining a spotlight on it and it's more it's more prevalent in that sense is it because i think covid was a good example of a signpost where it did two things that recognized where there was a lack where there was fear of you know there was lack of trust there was worry there was loneliness but yet on the other side communities come together they helped each other they really rallied round so there's an interesting moment in time to use that as a how do we move forward from building community ourselves

21:48Elliott:I'm really interested in your thoughts on community Gavin actually because I mean we obviously we've just had the documentary the Louis III documentary the Manosphere and I saw somebody talking online about how you can't beat the Manosphere with debate that's never going to work because actually ultimately boys are gravitating towards this type of content for community it's not even necessarily that they agree with what these people are saying it's just that they desperately need community and that gives them a sense of that and once they have a taste for community they just want more of it because they're so devoid of real connection and what you're doing is creating real connection.

22:30Elliott:Do you think we've just lost the ability really to properly connect particularly young people and do you think that's to do with screens? Do you think, like, I'd love to know a bit more about your thoughts on community. Yeah, and it ties in really well. We have a second programme that was created by young people who went to a nursery programme who said, we want to do something else with going together. And so they created with their community and with consultation, we created a youth social action project. So we give them a wee budget and they go and ask their community, what do you need? What project would help benefit?

23:04And then they, generally it's an after schools activity, they'll create a project that will help their community. And it links to what you're saying there about that sense of belonging or the lack of belonging, that sense of connectedness within a community. So there's moments where an elderly person will cross the road not to walk past a group of teenagers. You know, that stereotype where actually those teenagers could be amazing human beings who may be misunderstood. I remember in a rights of, this is a story from a rights of passage programme where two boys were coming together who from many years ago hated each other, had been in fights.

23:48and as they got closer, the anger was rising and rising and rising, just to this point here where they both realised they were wearing a necklace, a medallion, or it was a little tooth. And in that moment, they both realised they'd done the same programme. I mean, although it wasn't the same time, there was a sense of connection, there was a sense of shared, and everything changed. They smiled and they walked past each other. And, you know, there's something about being heard and seeing that we can do more of. I'm always conscious that we're going to have a positive mind growth set. We can ask questions that take us down deficit mode.

24:24There's something about asking the questions that will take us forward. So what can we do now, given where we are, learning from the past to do something moving forward? And I love coaching questions because you can just be curious. And I think one of the senses that we get is for boys especially, for girls and for boys, boys in particular in this case, they're often not heard. there's that sort of sense of active listening is often missing so we know you know from the from a neurological point of view as someone is answering a question you've asked you're already thinking of the next question you're about to ask you know in in a general sense so how do we become present breathe bring presence so we know that when we sit in front of young people and our facilitators are fully present with them young people can feel that they feel the difference when you're really there you know when you show up for someone whether it's your friend your family you know a boy they can tell when you're genuine and authentic you know that you care that you want to be there that you close everything off and i think there's something about presence about coming back to really hearing people not trying to change and not trying to answer their question just hear what they have to say and that's the first step of probably moving forward yeah and that community is so important that example you've given there around the two boys having more in common doing the same program definitely relate to that I think in the days of youth clubs it really helps boys from different estates have some sort of shared experience and so then when they went off into school and got older they may be on opposing sides and they may have started fighting but actually I know him because I played football with him I did music with him or there was something that we did when we were 11 years old that connects us I remember in my area I was lucky enough to have an amazing childminder and her son was quite well known in the area and he had a gang and I was protected because my childminder son I used to go to her house and spend time with him and so we knew each other and so I didn't get beaten up which was quite nice but let's talk about a little bit about like the mental health crisis we know there's a mental health crisis going on in in the uk amongst young people you're at the front line of this you see this every every day what does it look like on the ground we hear the statistics we see the headlines what does it look like from your perspective what are you seeing in the young people right now yeah i think as i said earlier i think one of the things we're seeing is that sense of that sense of lack of self that sense of depression so really feeling depressed there could be anger there could the lack of friendship groups and we're seeing mental health really and you know really young people really struggling with their mental health and yet also when you ask them what tools do you have they are the ones that can come up with solutions to helping this i think um jolie you said something earlier that's um sort of um the internet and satin and cyber cyber bullying so lots of people are using the internet as their one of their biggest social arenas and that can be both a really positive thing it can also be quite detrimental to them it's how we how we support that i think we are seeing people with suicidal thoughts really that even if it's just at self-harm stage that you know you're seeing that um we do you know we do see young people that are disclosing information that we pass back on so that they can get the support they need and because they're maybe in this safe space feeling okay or ready to share something you've not wanted to share before and it's important about getting the right support following that child protection and safeguarding sort of approach to helping them.

28:05But some of them are just feeling lost. Some of them don't feel like any sense of hope. There's the whole, whether that's ecological crisis that we're really seeing within internet, social media, a lot of young people are saying they're having to deal with what's coming to them from this point of view, from the external world, where maybe they're not strengthening the foundations within themselves. which is why I think talking and sharing and doing things together is really important. There's times when a question we often hold is like, are there times when your thinking is holding you back from action?

28:44You know, there's times when is there action that's holding you back from doing more thinking? There's something about reframing a story. We often live our life with the story we've created, but we can change that story. and actually you can help especially teenagers when they've gone through the first formative years of their lives they can also choose to create a new story about themselves join a football club do something different and as elliot said new groups of friends and there's lots of good hope now it's always a balance between recognizing the things that aren't working but also recognizing lots of solutions already in our communities and in our society and we can do and i think it starts presence, talking, sharing, working out what they need, helping them understand they've got the answers inside of themselves.

29:29It's not often out here, it's often in here and that's hard. That's hard for people that have no connection with themselves because they do want to be part of a gang, they do want to be part of you know whichever gang that is in whatever form and it's interesting you know we worked with one of my previous roles working a lot with young people who have care experience into the care system, a lot of them join the army. There's a lot of statistics to show that a lot of them re-offend and want to go back into prison because there's this sense of belonging, the safety, the community, the connection there.

30:02So how do we help people in society to find new senses of connections and belonging in a really positive way that can strengthen our communities? It's definitely a question to hold.

30:13Elliott:For parents that are listening to this that have a teenager that's struggling, what would you What would you say to them for them to be able to help their teenager? Would you say they should ask their teenager what to do and how to help them? And they should try and get the teenagers to come up with the solutions themselves? Or is there other advice you would give them? That's a great question. And being a dad myself, and I don't think I always get it right. You can ask my children. But I think there's something about those moments where I've not felt presence. presence they're talking to me and i'm just half there and that's natural we're all just trying to get on with life but there's also something important about being able to just stop and sit down and go hey how are you doing um we all we all approach supporting our our our children you know in the best way we can we're all we're often stressed as parents so it's recognizing that and actually there's something about being honest and saying i am so sorry i've not been present with you can we start again how's your day what's going on and i think it's about being curious about them and sometimes you don't get much i'm all right i'm off that's okay it's the small isn't it the small wins but there might just be moments when they do want to talk to you and that's the moment to just sort of open up and say hey you can come to me anytime let's chat things through and I think yeah advice one thing we got some great feedback from parents on our nursery and entry program who they realized that the program helped the sibling relationships so the boys were coming back from the nursery program and actually having a better relationship with their brothers and sisters because they were so and that's really interesting so changing perspectives gives them something that affects them back at home um for parents curiosity asking them questions i i often try and do the third person approach which is hey if you had a friend like you that was struggling in this what advice might you give them for example so it's taking out of themselves to them thinking about sort of depersonalizing whatever and often they can come up with solutions better than i can and that we can yeah because they know themselves as well and but I think it's connection relationship curiosity do you think there's also something though about giving kids responsibilities like giving you know I do think sometimes with my son that I mollycoddle him a bit and that actually I want to you know really I should get him down the pit working no I'm joking but you know I really I should give him way more responsibilities than I do and that that would be really good for him do you think there's something that's come out of your program that shows giving teenagers real responsibilities that are meaningful helps them grow and helps their mental health yeah and we hear it from them we've got i've just been looking through loads of quotes from young people recently and and often a lot of them say i was nervous i didn't want to do it i didn't think it was going to be good enough i wanted to walk away after the first week you know etc but actually we're putting them in a a really important position of authority, a position of responsibility.

33:32They're wearing name tags, they're not allowed to have their mobile phones because they know there's a child protection reason for not having mobile phones at nursery. You know, they are recognising that they have to change their behaviour and modulate their communication. Swearing is not allowed, you know, you know, so it's really realising that there's certain, and we call them non-negotiables and group agreements. So it's the things that they need to agree to, to go onto the programme and and continue and you're right giving them that responsibility and i think we can do more of that and because they are capable they are able to grow with that and yes they might struggle but we shouldn't stop too early in that struggle that's maybe just the door that's opening to the what's going to emerge through this this challenging time because we often say when you fall down pick yourself up and brush yourself off but there's so much truth in that isn't there it's but keep on keeping on through the hard times.

34:25Yes, good to have support around you. And I think you're absolutely right. Giving teenagers especially more responsibility to help us is probably the key to changing our society. Yeah, amazing. I'm getting my 10-year-old a job tomorrow. No, but seriously, I'd love her to do this programme. And I have seen when we have given her responsibility, how much and I do feel like we underestimate young people sometimes um and they can do so much more than we give them credit for um so yeah I think what you're doing is actually absolutely incredible so you've worked with thousands of young people over the years let's end with some hope what gives you hope about the next generation of boys yeah so we're just I think we're just over 3 ,000 teenagers and children in our programs which is fantastic in our nursery and engine programs um what gives me hope is if we as adults are willing to get down to the teenagers and say do you know what we've taken we've got society to this place and there's some really good things and there's some not good things how will you help us make this world a better place and actively as as Julie was saying give them that responsibility and ask them to help us change things.

35:46I think we've, for good reasons, done a lot of really good interventions to support teenagers, and that's needed. And at the other side, it's something about giving them the responsibility to help us to make this world a better place. If we've got issues with teenagers in inner cities, how do we deal with that? What could we do? They'll come up with great solutions. They need maybe extra guidance or ideas and suggestions to hold that, but often they'll come up and i think we are in a really positive place we are going through you know societally social media globally you know there's so many things that we could focus on and are really negative or would really draw us down and and i think it's the way i often see it as a downward spiral it's so easy just to catch that one thing that just drops us down and down and down and i think there's something important about the hope the faith the trust that actually action and good thinking that helps us lead forward so positive growth mindset is about believing in yourself and believing that you can create your life you're not you're you're either a victim or you're a co-creator and yes there will always be moments when we feel a victim to things that happen to our life are we going to be held to that for the rest of our lives or are we going to do something about it and that's something could just be getting outside and going for a jog joining a football club or swimming club doing something in the community and i think i think it was something that joely said earlier it feels like we are there's more lights being shone on a lot of issues around society at the moment and i think that's to help us clear the way of what we're going to do to make the world a better place to make our communities a better place so yeah we need trust we can trust our teenagers and they feel that they will step up

37:33Elliott:Is the programme across the UK, Gavin? It's not across the UK. We're currently in Scotland. We went to Education Scotland and piloted in Highland Council. We then moved into Moray and into Aberdeen City Council. And we often hear teachers and parents going, why isn't this across the country? And there is lots of amazing mentoring that happens. So it's not to take away in any way. I was a youth worker and had different sets of mentoring programs. So the thing I think that makes this unique is we hold it within the container of positive and transpersonal psychology with coaching. So using coaching as that method to really explore yourself and help others.

38:14And so there's great stuff happening. We'd love to, yeah, we'd love to grow it because it actually isn't about us as growing together. So we also train up the teachers or youth workers to co-deliver with us and then eventually go independent. will still hold that sort of evaluation and that quality assurance, the programme in that sense to grow and learn from it. But if we can train more people up to run it themselves, then we can go into more schools and communities and grow it. So there is a Movember Global Men's Health Charity, huge supporters of ours. We're really good for all their support.

38:48They helped us really take up more boys into the programme and learn from that. And they helped with looking at scaling what works. So really looking at how we would grow that sustainability model. So love to see it grow at the right moment at the right time. And yeah, who knows what the future holds.

39:05Elliott:Yeah, I mean, I feel like the UK government should know about this and know about the research and the insight that you've gathered and the benefits of it. Because it seems to me that this should exist in every school. We should have programs like this. I wonder if for parents listening, how could they and they are listening and thinking, I want this in my school. I want this where my kid goes to school to help some of the children there how can they support you how can they find you and how could they support your work? Yeah I mean so they can get in touch with us and our website is www.growingtogether.org.uk so growingtogether G-R-O-W-I-N-G the number 2 and then G-E-T-H-E-R so growingtogether and get in touch with us because if a school was interested and we could have our parents were interested we could have a chat and see what we might be able to do together.