Bernie vs. the billionaires

0:00Astead Herndon:How can we understand the decisions facing the United States and Israel and Iran as they weigh next moves in this war? War that was meant to prevent from reaching a bomb eventually might push them beyond the Rubicon and to have that bomb. I'm Jon Feiner. And I'm Jake Sullivan. And we're the hosts of The Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, former Israeli Defense Intelligence Officer Danny Sintronowitz joins us from Israel to discuss the war against Iran. The episode's out now. Search for and follow The Long Game wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, and welcome to Today Explained Saturday.

0:36Astead Herndon:This week, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. Senator Bernie Sanders has just introduced his Make Billionaires Pay Their Fair Share Act, a 5 % annual wealth tax on anyone making more than a billion dollars. Now, that would be roughly 930-ish people, and of course, it includes some big names. Someone like Elon Musk would pay up to$40 billion under the law. Someone like Mark Zuckerberg, about$11 billion. But Senator Sanders said it would fund something important, up to$3 ,000 in direct payments for anyone living in a household that makes less than$150 ,000. That means up to$12 ,000 for a family of four.

1:16Astead Herndon:Now, this bill has little chance of becoming law. Donald Trump would almost certainly veto it, and it's a hard chance it would even get through Congress. But I still think it's important because it speaks to something that's been growing among the American public and a signal that Senator Sanders is setting when it comes to the 2026 elections and, of course, the 2028 presidential election. So I wanted to ask Senator Sanders how this bill would actually work. But since I had him on the line, I also wanted to ask about some other topics that have been in the news, like AI and the future of work, his recent calls for a moratorium on building data centers, and of course, the U.S.-Israeli strikes on Iran.

1:56Astead Herndon:But we had a little bit of trouble connecting when we first got on the line, which got me a peek at that classic Bernie humor. Take a look and enjoy the conversation. How are you? I can't hear anything. But I do see you, yes. Thank you.

2:11Bernie Sanders:Has anyone ever played a game with you and God? I'm teasing you.

2:18Astead Herndon:I always dreamed of having Bernie Sanders pantomime yell at me.

2:31Astead Herndon:Senator, thank you for your time.

2:33Bernie Sanders:Well, thank you for having me.

2:35Astead Herndon:I know that it's limited, so I want to jump right into it. Most Democrats have condemned the U.S. early strikes in Iran, but Donald Trump is blowing ahead. Obviously, Congressman Ro Khanna and Thomas Massey's War Powers Resolution failed to pass the House, meaning any chance of congressional action to reign in Trump seems less and less likely by today. If you're an American who doesn't support this war, as many do seem to not, is there any recourse coming from Congress?

3:02Bernie Sanders:Well, I think what we have got to do is pull the financial plug here. I think what we have got to do our best in saying is that not only is this war unconstitutional, not only is it illegal, when we have so many strong domestic needs in terms of housing and health care and education, we're going to be just throwing tens of billions of dollars into another endless war. So I think taking a look at how we finance wars is one of the areas that we've got to move to. But bottom line is we've got to do everything that we can to stop Trump's reckless foreign policy, which is not only unconstitutional, not having gone to Congress, it is in violation of international law and will lead, in my view, to international anarchy.

3:54Bernie Sanders:Anybody will be attacking anybody for any reason, not a good place for the world to be in.

4:01Astead Herndon:I want to ask about that funding piece because that was what I plan to follow up with. Some Democrats have kind of gone back and forth about whether they should continue funding the war even as they vocalize disagreement. Some saying that we're already in it, and so might as well support military action. Others have kind of hedged. I wanted you to kind of expand on that. You don't think Democrats should be funding this war if they're going to call it reckless and illegal?

4:27Bernie Sanders:Obviously.

4:29Astead Herndon:I mean, not all your colleagues agree with that.

4:32Bernie Sanders:I don't, you know, if you think the war is unnecessary, it's illegal, it's unconstitutional, why would you continue to fund it? You're just making, you know, giving Trump the ammunition, so to speak, that he needs to continue.

4:52Astead Herndon:So that makes no sense to me at all. I guess I was just asking because it did not seem kind of universal from the caucus. I also wanted to ask about a wealth tax. You and Congressman Conner introduced this bill that would add a 5 % annual tax on wealth for anyone making over a billion dollars. And importantly, this is a wealth tax, not an income tax. So things like assets and stock accumulation are also in play. I wanted to ask about that number. Why$1 billion?

5:17Bernie Sanders:Well, I think we wanted to make very clear that today we have more income and wealth inequality than we've ever had in the history. You got it? Of the United States of America. We all read about the Gilded Age, right? Nickels and dimes compared to where we are right now. We're living in a moment where the top 1 % owns more wealth than the bottom 93%. where one man, Elon Musk, owns more wealth than the bottom 53 % of American households, where, while 60 % of our people are living paycheck to paycheck, the billionaire class has seen its wealth increase by a trillion and a half dollars since Trump was elected.

6:05Bernie Sanders:How's that? They doing pretty well?

6:07Astead Herndon:Mm-hmm.

6:08Bernie Sanders:All right. So I think the point is that at a time of so much inequality, we've got to ask the wealthiest people to start paying their fair share of taxes. One way to do it is a wealth tax. I personally think starting off at a billion dollars is the appropriate way to go.

6:27Astead Herndon:I mean, the goal of the revenue is to send$3 ,000 checks to every American in a household making under$150K. Should I see this as a means of funding a kind of universal basic income?

6:40Bernie Sanders:No, it does two things. It says that at a time when the very richest people are becoming much, much richer, while ordinary Americans today are struggling to put food on the table or pay for child care or pay for health care, the working class of this country needs immediate help. And that's, by the way, just a one-year provision. $3 ,000 for every man, woman, and child in a family of under$150 ,000. But on top of that, we make massive investments every year in child care, in housing, in education, in health care, in addressing the basic needs of working-class Americans. And yet everything being equal, our kids will have a lower standard of living than we will, and millions of families are struggling.

7:32Bernie Sanders:All of our people should have a decent standard of living, and we've got to address the massive level of income and wealth inequality to do that.

7:39Astead Herndon:I definitely want to underscore, I definitely hear the importance of underscoring income inequality and the wealth disparity, but France tried a wealth tax and repealed it. Sweden tried one, repealed it. And the European countries that have gone back have almost universally said that it was because capital left or evasion meant that they did not see the necessary revenue returns. Why would that not be true in the United States?

8:07Bernie Sanders:Well, I think we need to enact that legislation, and then we need a political movement to make sure that it is implemented. One of the things, I said that— I mean, that's a pretty high standard. Well, one of the things that is really troubling to me is what you are saying is, look, even if the American people want it, these guys will evade it one way or another.

8:31Astead Herndon:Is that what you're saying? Other countries have repealed the wealth tax because of that exact problem.

8:38Bernie Sanders:Well, we have got to deal with it. If what we are saying is these guys, and I was out in California a few weeks ago dealing with a state wealth tax. And the issue there is that 15 million people, including many in California and Vermont, have been thrown off the health care they have in order to give a trillion dollars in tax rates to the 1%. And what the 1 % are saying is, you want us to pay more in taxes so that working class people and children will have health care. Well, if you pass that, you know what we're going to do? We're going to move to Texas. We're going to move to Florida. Because you know why?

9:13Bernie Sanders:We got all the power. You got nothing. So your choice is either you take cuts in health care, do away with health care, or we take away your jaw. That's your choice. Well, you know, I think the time is long overdue that we stood up to that greed and say, no, that's not the choice. The choice is that you are in America. You've benefited from America. You're part of America. You're not, you don't have the divine right to rule. And you play by the rules. And if we pass this to tax, you're going to pay it.

9:47Astead Herndon:So I just want to underscore, what is the answer to the prospect of that evasion under your proposed wealth tax?

9:54Bernie Sanders:Well, you're getting to, I mean, if these guys, well, then you come up. Right now, what you're looking at is billionaires in many cases are paying an effective tax rate that is lower than a truck driver or a nurse. You've got a corrupt political system which these guys buy and sell politicians who give them tax breaks. All that you are saying, stop and think what you're saying. You're saying in so many words, these guys are so powerful that in the midst of massive income and wealth inequality, nothing you can do about it. Because even if you pass something, they're going to evade it or move out of the country or move out of the state.

10:34Bernie Sanders:But when it comes to a point, you've got to stand up to that.

10:37Astead Herndon:Mm-hmm. I also wanted to ask about another piece of this. The proposal would establish a federal registry of ownership of assets, requiring wealthy taxpayers to provide an annual valuation of investment accounts, real estate, privately held business. I think that you can be in support of raising taxes on the rich or the wealthy and still maybe have some uncomfort with a registry for the federal government of assets. Is that a little big brother? I mean, how do we get around that question?

11:06Bernie Sanders:Well, it's a little big, I must tell you, that when one guy owns more wealth than the bottom 53 % of American households, when children in America are hungry today, when the top 1 % pay an effective tax rate lower than you pay. So, yeah, look, if you're going to come up with a sensible tax, you need to know what people own. own. But I would say we it's not I don't know that we have to worry too much about the billionaire class right now between you and me. They're doing pretty well. Maybe let's worry about the working class, low income people. More with Senator Bernie Sanders in a minute.

11:47Bernie Sanders:When you want your spring break to feel like. And your kids pool day to feel like. and your hotel bed to feel like ooh, and room service to feel like

12:03Astead Herndon:because at Hilton, hospitality feels like your cabana's ready. Would you like fresh towels? It matters where you stay. Book now at Hilton.com. Hilton, for this day.

12:19We're back.

12:20Astead Herndon:It's Today Explained Saturday and we're here with Senator Bernie Sanders. I want to turn to AI. You called for a moratorium on AI data center construction. I spoke with your ally, Rochanna, about this, and he disagreed about that point specifically. I wanted to ask, why do you think the time is now to put a moratorium on data centers?

12:39Bernie Sanders:Good. I'll tell you why. I don't think a moratorium is the solution to all the problems. I think it's the right thing to do now, and here's why. What I have been really stunned by is that I go out around the country and I talk to people and I say, well, what do you think about AI and robotics? Are you concerned about it? And I talk to mostly working class audiences and they say, Bernie, we are really, really concerned. Come back to Capitol Hill, United States Senate. You know what? Hardly anything is being done about it. No legislation has yet been passed. So the disconnect is five miles wide.

13:15Bernie Sanders:So I think we got to get moving. This is what I am concerned about. Issue number one, and it gets back, by the way, to this issue of income and wealth inequality. Instead, you know who is pushing? Who's pushing AI and robotics? You know, the richest people in the world. Who is investing money in data centers? For sure. Silicon Valley, billionaire class. Yes. You got it. Elon Musk. Yes. Zuckerberg, Bezos, Ellison, Altman, you know, Bill Gates. The richest people in the world are investing unbelievable amounts of money to move AI and robotics. So the very first question that we have to ask ourselves, and I'm going to ask it to you.

14:00Bernie Sanders:All right, you ready for this question? Do you think these guys were investing huge amounts of money in AI and robotics, transforming our economy? Are they staying up nights worrying about you and your family? No. They are not. All right? So that's the first thing. What do they want? And in my view, they want even more wealth and they want even more power. All right? And at a time when these guys already have so much wealth and power, when they're buying elections, you know, I worry about that and what it means for our democracy. Issue number two. People disagree because nobody really knows. What will the impact of AI and robotics mean to our economy?