Hasan Piker’s challenge to the center

0:00Astead Herndon:Now, we've been talking about the civil war happening in the Democratic Party all summer in New York City. The politics of the past ends today. In Michigan. Listen, man, if you can't say the name, it's Abdurrahman. Keep the name out your damn mouth. And most recently, in Wisconsin. You know, I always say that every day is a good day. In Wisconsin, it is a very good day. And I know what you're saying. We've heard this story before. Moderates versus progressives. The DSA versus the establishment. But after Francesca Hong's loss in Wisconsin, it seems we should talk about this at least one more time.

0:39Astead Herndon:Because the map is telling us a mixed story. Some wins for the left, some wins for the center. And a big open question about what happens in the general election. Democrats say they welcome a Big Ten party for progressives and for moderates. But does the left agree? What we want is a clear agenda, a clear vision for a better future. We're going to ask Twitch streamer Hasan Piker this week on America Actually. Let's dig in.

1:15Astead Herndon:Hi, it's Kara Swisher. You know me as co-host of Pivot, but for August, I'm flying solo. and I've lined up some incredible guest hosts to join me. Mark Cuban, Chelsea Handler, Caitlin Collins, and a lot more you won't want to miss. Already out, my conversation with Hillary Clinton. Among many other things, we get into redistricting fights, reshaping state politics, and what Trump's golden makeover of the presidency actually means. And it's not good. Trust me, you don't want to skip this one. Find Pivot on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. So the most prominent progressive Democrats share at least one thing in common.

1:54Astead Herndon:Hassan Piker's stream. Soram Amdani, AOC, Bernie Sanders, even midterms candidates like Daria Liza, Avila Shevalier in New York City, or Abdul El-Sayed and Francesca Hong out in the Midwest. They've all talked to Hassan Piker. And that has infuriated some establishment Democrats who argue that Piker's past controversial statements, anti-Israel commentary, and just general bro-iness are toxic to everyday voters. We first talked to Piker back in June and explored some of the drama that seems to surround him. But that was back when the Democratic primaries were yet to be decided. So this time, I wanted to ask Piker about more than just the primaries.

2:35Astead Herndon:How does he plan to conduct himself in a general election? And do results like Michigan prove that his politics is popular? or do results like Wisconsin show that he's a liability? Here's our conversation. Hassan Piker is with us, unofficial mouthpiece of the left and controversial lightning rod for the center. How are you? Both good and bad. I imagine this is some of the reaction to Wisconsin. The last two weeks have produced mixed results for left wing candidates. A big win in Michigan and a win this week in Minnesota for Peggy Flanagan, but a loss for Francesca Hong, which was a surprise in Wisconsin.

3:12Astead Herndon:What have been your takeaways from the last set of results? I think ground game is phenomenal. There's a lot of excitement on the platform. There's a lot of excitement for the first time for change candidates. It's still a very good environment to be in if you are a socialist. The establishment does have a lot of juice still, for sure. And when they can put together a similar strategy to what happened in 2020 against Bernie Sanders with Joe Biden, especially in a place like Wisconsin, where Tony Evers is like very clearly still a very popular governor. They were able to, to elevate David Crowley's campaign who actually had dropped out and consolidated support behind Rodriguez initially.

3:58And he had to drop out because he was only performing at like 6%. Yeah.

4:02Astead Herndon:The consolidation was swift and it was complete. I mean, you're comparing it to 2020 in which the establishment lined up behind Joe Biden and kind of nixed that Bernie Sanders campaign in a blink of an eye. I guess for you, I just want to start with the emotion. Like, I imagine you were surprised at the result. I never underestimate my opponents, whether they be Republicans or whether they be establishment Democrats. You know, you have to always operate as though you're down 10 points. I don't believe in the notion that we are going to win easy victories at the end of the day. There are a lot of people, there are a lot of powerful interests at play here.

4:41There are a lot of people in positions of power that don't want to lose their seats. So they're going to fight like hell. So we have to also fight like hell. We have to fight extra hard as a matter of fact, because, you know, we're, we're almost always outspent.

4:53Astead Herndon:I want to ask about some of the takeaways that at least media is taking from this. I got an alert right before we started talking from the New York Times that said, a democratic socialist lost in Wisconsin shows the movement surging wave might crash before rippling out from big cities. Is that wrong?

5:16Oh, I love that. Look, people are going to have their opinions. I'll just say it like this. Abdu 'l Sayed's one point victory margin showed that the democratic socialist aligned movement or the progressive movement was in tatters. It was obviously a failure. And now David Crowley's less than one point victory proves that the centrist bulwark is still here and that the democratic socialist movement is dying. It kind of feels like it's a wish casting for the most part from a lot of people who maybe want to go back to the way things used to be. My assessment on this is definitely a little bit different.

5:57I think at the end of the day, these are insurgencies, right? These are insurgent candidacies. We're talking about no name recognition for a state legislator that was entirely propped up by local Wisconsin DSA chapters. I mean, these people, they didn't have a lot of money necessarily, and they were able to defy the odds, and they continued defying the odds all the way into the end. The idea that the polls showed that Francesca was a clear front runner and was running away with this race is utterly irrelevant, especially if you were to look at this with a broader perspective, like thinking about where democratic socialists of America have gotten to in the last two years.

6:41I mean, I remember how I felt in 2024, you know, in the aftermath of the DNC about where the American socialist movement was, as opposed to where it is now. We are clearly a force to be reckoned with. And that's precisely the reason why a lot of people are paying close attention to what's going on. And I'll say it like this. The fact that the Hong campaign did not have any major progressive national endorsements and that I was like their top. There was no Bernie Sanders

7:08Astead Herndon:endorsement. There was no AOC endorsement that did make the Hong campaign unique on that front. Yeah. And I, well, not necessarily. I think there were a couple other races that I was also involved in that, you know, my candidates lost, right? I mean, Shoykha Chakrabarty was another great example of this as well as it wasn't a statewide race and obviously uh there's always clear local differences that that you know play a formative role in how these races uh turn out but in our experience we've looked back at this data there's a there's an endorsement tracker there's a couple different endorsement trackers out there and it's like they'll put my endorsement up there and they'll put like aoc and bernie sanders and it's very clear that like the best likelihood of success usually comes from a consolidation of national progressive forces, whether it be like outside expenditures coming from, you know, justice Democrats or things like that.

7:59And, you know, with the Francesca Han campaign, I think it's a, it's a testament to their success. It's a testament to how popular the platform is in general. And one thing I will have to stress here is the salience of the electability narrative, I think that's still a real motivator for a lot of people.

8:20Astead Herndon:I hear that. I guess one question I wanted to ask out of these results, though, is both El-Sayed's campaign and Hong's campaign did better among middle class voters, I should say, than the data would tell us among working class voters. Considering how central working class and kind bottom-up issues are to the DSA message, why has it not produced results that actually get it more working-class votes? Because that does seem to be something we've learned over the last three, four weeks. Yeah. I think that we have to dramatically reconstruct how we understand what it means to be working-class in this country.

8:56I think a lot of people will cast aside, and you might agree with what I'm about to say here, but we have to do away with this fantastical notion that the working class is one specific thing. I think for the longest time, people have thought about this hard hat wearing coal miner as the true working class, oftentimes white as well. And the working class is unbelievably diverse in this country. And it's also a lot more college educated than people actually give it credit for. I think partially this is because like, yeah, if you look back to the nineties, as opposed to right now, Now, yes, if you had a college education, you were upwardly mobile.

9:34You were probably a professional managerial class individual that was going to be able to retire at a reasonable age. You were doing fairly well. It was a guarantee for getting a job, a good job, right? That's not the case in America any longer. There are a lot more people who have a college degree who are downwardly mobile, who are having a very tough time in the current job market, who do not own a home. And it's seemingly less likely than before that they will ever be able to own or purchase a home. And that is the actual working class. It's much broader, right? So we've seen in Zoran's race and in Abdul's race, there's this massive middle class of working class folks that constantly get cast aside as not being a true representation of the American working class.

10:25when I think like, no, that is the true representation. That is a big component of it. Now, the other side of the story, of course, is just like with Andrew Cuomo, Haley Stevens won with the wealthiest voters.

10:37Astead Herndon:The wealthiest and the poorest. Yeah, the wealthiest voters and the poorest voters. And I find that, I mean, there is no immediate answer to that question. I think that is a real issue to try and have more of an impact and to be able to speak to not the wealthiest voters necessarily, but the poorest voters because these policies are policies that target them and seek to alleviate some of their concerns, some of their immediate material struggles. I think we just have more work to do in that regard. Ultimately, a lot of people, I think especially in that category of the poorest voters, they're unbelievably busy and uh perhaps some of them like the rest of the the democratic primary electorate is a defensive voter the electability narrative is very important for them like they're they're locked in on on what ms now is saying is is the best possible or to say it in a more good faith way they're locked in on what donald trump is doing and and maybe the people are the people who most clearly respond to that sometimes can be centrist or establishment or particularly when they're putting that message in front of you on television yeah no i uh the reason why i say it like that is you're absolutely right about the trump thing by the way 100 but like we are worried about that as well it's not like it's not like someone like myself is saying like i don't care about donald trump i don't care if the democrats lose i don't care if the democrats don't maintain a senate majority as long as i get my message across like that's ridiculous that's never been my concern.

12:14Like I do care. That is precisely the reason why I wanted Kamala Harris to make different choices when she was campaigning. Like from my worldview, and I think we're going to be able to prove this in at least certain races, like this is good policy and good politics, right? Instead, I'm sure you've, you know, you've traveled the country. So I'm sure you've probably had this similar mind boggling experience where someone, especially in the primaries will come up to you and say, you know, I really liked, you know, insert left insurgent candidate. I really liked their policies. I, but I just simply don't think other people will vote for them.

12:49Astead Herndon:So I had to vote for this other person playing pundit in your head is a huge democratic primary base, uh, activity, but favorite pastime of theirs. Yes. Yeah. We like to call it pundit brain. A lot of Democrats I think have pundit brain. That's why I keep saying like, Oh, it's MS now it's CNN. These people are terrified of Donald Trump winning just like we are. They're terrified of Trumpism. We are as well. Right. And they're actually more in line with our agenda. And they're a part of this, but they just haven't they haven't, I guess, bought into the to the idea that this could be one way to more effectively destroy Trumpism in this country, effectively destroy any kind of stranglehold the Republicans have.

13:33Astead Herndon:There's a lot in that, and I want to pull out some of it, but I want to go back to the question I just asked. I mean, I think it's important to acknowledge what you said. The definition of working class is certainly changing over the years, and I think that's important. But to the point about the poorest voters, you all have confidence, as you have laid out, that the policies are ones that suit those people. But we're not seeing the translation in votes, particularly in the primaries so far. Is there something about the DSA message that misses people who didn't go to college? I think people are very cynical.

14:05If you're working a gig economy job, you've just been destroyed, right? You've been destroyed by your circumstances. So I think there's an element of like not daring to dream as well for a lot of these voters where they're just like, yeah, I think this guy's just selling me something that could be part of it, right? I just don't think that the average American has any confidence in their government. So that's why I always stress the importance of good governance and its associations with democratic socialism, even at the municipal level, even when it comes to constituent services, because we have a lot of work to do to make sure that people trust their government again.

14:49Astead Herndon:Hi, everybody. It's Megan Rapinoe. I've been thinking a lot about this one question I've been asked over and over. A question about the choices I've made, the colors of my hair, the things in the world I've spoken about, and the things that I haven't. I've heard this question asked so many different ways, but it always came down to, why are you like this? And as you know, there's no simple answer because people are not simple. We're messy and complicated and contradictory and layered. So on my new show, I'm sitting down with the ultimate disruptors, the athletes, the artists, the activists, and the architects of our culture who looked at the way things were and asked, why do we do it like this?

15:33Astead Herndon:And can we do it differently? My hope is to give us a little more space to that question and to the person on the other side of the mic, not to tell us their answer or read from their script, but to take us on their journey. Check out my new show, Why Are You Like This? on YouTube or listen in your favorite podcast app. New episodes drop every Thursday. Megan Rapinoe here. This week on Why Are You Like This, I got to sit down with legendary Minnesota Lynx coach Cheryl Reeve in Chicago during All-Star Weekend. We get into her personal style of activism, how she supports her players as people, and why she proudly considers herself a dyke.

16:14Astead Herndon:Then we learn if she's more of a mommy, daddy, or baby. Check out the latest episode of Why Are You Like This wherever you get your podcasts and on YouTube.

16:26Astead Herndon:Hello, everyone. It's Sean. And Noelle. And we want to take a moment to talk to you about why we make this show. We make this show because we genuinely want to help you understand what's happening in Saffold. And why it's happening. The context. We think that this is very valuable. And Vox members help us keep making this show. And they get access to some perks. Let's listen, Sean. First, ad-free listening on Today Explained and all Vox podcasts. People love the ad-free listening. We love the ad-free listening. Unlimited reading at Vox.com. People love unlimited reading. Exclusive newsletters.

17:05Astead Herndon:People love newsletters, right? It's like the new club. Vox.com slash members to join. Thank you.

17:22Astead Herndon:I wanted to come back to electability because you mentioned it. It has been something that, you know, the establishment has successfully wielded over the last several years. And one of the arguments they make about these progressive candidates is that their association with you makes them unelectable. Candidates like Abdul El-Sayed and Mamdani, they sound like you on Israel, maybe you're taxing the rich, but they don't sound like you when it comes to being complimentary about communism or Mao Zedong, who we talked about in our last conversation. Is Wisconsin not evidence that some of those statements may have an electoral cost?

17:57Astead Herndon:Is Wisconsin not evidence that maybe you're a drag on electability? No, I don't think so. Or at least the campaigns don't seem to think so. And a big part of that is because these close races are regarded as like, you know, upset victories for either party or either faction of the party. because polling was just completely out of whack. It's an expectation game more than you think. Yeah, I think that's a big part of it. And it's ironic because I never represent that level of confidence until it's done. I'm always very, very nervous until the victory is announced, right? Until the last vote is counted.

18:41And yet there is definitely an expectation game there. And when those expectations are subverted in either direction, that becomes the driving media narrative. I think the fact that the Abdul race was so close meant that, you know, the fact that I was able to bring in the under 45 crowd early on and fundraise in key moments probably helped a lot in driving him across the finish line.

19:06Astead Herndon:I hear what you're saying. You're saying like, you know, there's evidence of you helping those candidates, particularly maybe young people. And you don't think that the results in their closeness shows some need for like, you know, the big piker step back or, or, or, or something like that. Yeah. I, and, and, and I've explained this a million times over, which no one seems to care about, but like, I don't actually appreciate doing the, the travel and the, and the, well, the rallies are fun, but the reality of the matter is from a pure content perspective, I'm looking at it from like a, uh, like a commentator.

19:40I mean, I, I have far bigger viewership. I make more money sitting at home, you know, like I'm doing this specifically because I do think it helps. And I want people to participate in electoral democracy in much more meaningful ways because I am a firm and committed believer that regardless of where my politics are, regardless of what my worldview looks like, I think in the interim, like, well, first of all, democracy is good, but also in the interim, I think it's important for us to participate in it instead of casting it aside. One thing that I always say is it's the age old notion that like, if your vote didn't matter, the Republicans wouldn't stop you so aggressively.

20:24Right. And this goes for not only the black vote, but just, you know, all voters in general and especially working class voters. If your vote was utterly irrelevant, if this machine was going to churn out whatever results it wants to, then they wouldn't spend this much time and this much effort trying to make sure that you don't go out and vote.

20:46Astead Herndon:And yeah, I think that's been a motivating message. But your point is also to agitate. As you told us the last time you were with us, I saw your speech to the College Democrats of America in July 2026. And I also saw that you wore an outfit reminiscent of the former Chinese communist dictator, which sparked some controversy. You got your suit on today, but those things will find themselves in Republican attack ads and have angered some Democrats. I'm asking about actions like that. Do those things make it harder for Democrats to win in November? No, it's entirely dependent on how they use this opportunity.

21:26I think it's a really, it's ironically a good opportunity, right? Because that's precisely what happened with Abdul Al-Sayed's race as well. but Abdul was so good, just like Zoran was, and just like Zoran still is, at reframing that moment in the spotlight to turn that into a moment where you can deliver your policy platform. The reality of the matter is these things are immaterial. I know that people try to turn them into major points of manufactured outrage and controversy, but I saw the response to the suit that I was wearing. It's a Zhongshan suit. It's not just Mao Zedong, obviously. But you know what you're doing.

22:04You know, for sure. You know good and well what you're doing. I do. And I really love that suit, by the way. I mean, it's tailored. I got it tailored in Shanghai from the family that actually invented the Zhongshan suit. Like it's a, it has a significance for me, but the, the way that people were looking at that, the way that, you know, Facebook boomers were responding to the Fox News comment on that, that news hit was, was very reflective of where Americans are broadly, where the base is broadly, where they, they almost hargoned it back to the Obama tan suit. There was a lot of like Obama tan suit comparisons, but they were like, the president's a pedophile.

22:40Who cares what this one random guy is, is wearing as a suit. And I think most voters are there, but having said that on the other side of it, voters will respond to what they're seeing in the media. So if they're constantly seeing this, there will be as much as there's backlash to the negative coverage all the time from the base that go, OK, enough. Like, we don't care about this guy. Who cares? Talk to us about the real issues. There will definitely be a lot of people who are concerned with it. But I don't believe that that concern is going to cause people to stay home.

23:16Astead Herndon:But the question is not really whether they stay home or does that motivate them to vote for the other candidates that motivate them to vote for Stevens that motivate them to vote for Crowley. No, I don't think that that is what, you know, that's what allowed Haley Stevens to perform as well as she did, especially in comparison to the Gresham Whitmer endorsement and Gary Peters endorsement. Other things matter more. Of course, of course they mattered a lot more. So it's always a calculation, right? It's always a calculation for the campaigns. They poll me in these districts. It's not like these guys are, you know, out in the water, totally blind.