MAGA rethinks Ukraine

0:01Noel King:In veteran MAGA trickster, Laura Loomer never fails to surprise. In college, to prove a point, she tried to start an ISIS support group. In New York, she crashed Shakespeare in the Park's production of Julius Caesar. In the second Trump administration, she's literally telling him who to fire. If you're the Loomer, you're in deep trouble. That's the end of your career, in a sense. It was then, without exaggeration, a complete shock when Loomer turned up in a bomb shelter in Ukraine about two weeks ago and told a reporter from the AP she'd changed her mind. People love being keyboard warriors and saying things are fake.

0:34Noel King:I was once that person too, but then I decided to come to a war zone and see things for myself. Like much of the MAGAverse, Loomer has long been critical of Ukraine while praising Russia, but something made her do the thing that no one ever seems to do these days, admit she was wrong. Now she might even be influencing President Trump's attitude toward Ukraine. Coming up on Today's Plane from Vox, MAGA rethinks Ukraine.

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1:50Noel King:I'm Isaac Arnstorf. I'm the White House bureau chief for The Washington Post. Isaac, let's talk about something that has been in your in your coverage stream of late. MAGA luminary personality, Laura Loomer, finds herself yet again at the scene of a crime. Take me back just a bit. Laura Loomer is somebody within the MAGA universe who has been anti-American involvement with Ukraine. Did she ever give reasons, a history? Well, I mean, the context here goes back 10 years. It all goes back to the Russian interference in the 2016 election. New evidence of Russia's determination to interfere in our election.

2:27Noel King:A bipartisan report from the Senate Intelligence Committee details how Russia targeted voting systems in all 50 states and warns the threat persists today. Candidate Donald Trump routinely downplayed suggestions that Russia was interfering. It could be Russia, but it could also be China. Could also be lots of other people. but also could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds, okay? So Trump responds to that by needing to protect the legitimacy of his win. So kind of overcorrecting to say not only was there no interference, but actually what's so bad about Russia? They think it's Russia.

3:02Noel King:I have President Putin. He just said it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be. Putin's a killer. A lot of killers. We get a lot of killers. Why, you think our country's so innocent? And the Russians respond by saying, well, actually, the Ukrainians were trying to interfere on behalf of the Democrats. And that drives people into their partisan corners. You know, Russia gets kind of pro-Trump coded and Ukraine gets pro-Democrat coded. And then Loomer, particularly, what she told me was pretty interesting, that she and a lot of other Trump supporters got kicked off of Twitter and Facebook and mainstream social media platforms.

3:51Noel King:platforms. And she said the effect of that for her was it kind of drove her into the arms of alternative outlets like RT, which stands for Russia Today. It's the English language propaganda arm of Russian state media. And by her own telling now, that contributed to her becoming more susceptible to these Russian storyline about why Ukraine was the bad guy. The Russians are very good at pushing out conspiracy theories, pushing out propaganda. And there's already people now in America that are commenting under my post, oh, you're a sellout. I'm unfollowing you because you're paid$2 million by the Ukrainian government.

4:31Noel King:I was not paid by anybody to come here. OK, so she comes back from Ukraine and she's talking positively about Ukraine. What's she saying exactly? What is she like about Ukraine now? She comes back articulating Zelensky's talking points really, really better than he can because his English isn't that good. But also he's, you know, she really is more especially conversant in the language of MAGA. We have to start thinking geopolitically long term. If Ukraine falls, well, what happens next? Russia has already said that their goal is to go to war with all of the NATO members. Well, what is their ultimate goal, right?

5:11Noel King:It's the destruction of the West. And what is the West? Well, it's civilized European countries that aren't included in Eastern Europe. And it's the United States of America. And so letting Russia prevail in this war with Ukraine would directly be bad for America. Trump has kind of gone back and forth. You know, his main interest has been trying to end the war, which he promised to do before taking office and obviously hasn't succeeded in doing yet. Before I even arrive at the Oval Office, I will have the disastrous war between Russia and Ukraine settled. And so he's kind of gone through these bouts of frustration with one side or the other, whoever he feels like is being more difficult.

5:55Noel King:But he kind of looks at this conflict and looks at this map like a, you know, it's a cliche, but like a businessman, like a real estate person. He looks at it like Russia, big and powerful, Ukraine, little and weak. Like, why do I want to be on Ukraine's side here when I could be friends with Russia? The answer that Loomer is offering is like, well, because Russia doesn't want to be friends with you. Like Russia has nothing, has no interest in getting, having better relations with the U.S. just because Trump has an idea that he could have better relations with Russia and with Putin, whereas Ukraine does have a lot to offer that they're eager to offer.

6:39Noel King:Kyiv reportedly has agreed to send battle-tested drones to the U.S. Actually, nobody could deny that the new reality of the warfare has been created in Ukraine by Ukrainians and by Ukrainian ingenuity. And that argument is more, has a chance to be more persuasive now that Trump is stuck with this war in Iran. All right, so she's come back. She's anti-Russia now. What's she saying about Russia and about Putin? She is going a lot farther than Trump or others will go. And, you know, Trump is still being somewhat equivocal on wanting to have a good relationship with both. Look, we're not involved from the standpoint that we're separated by an ocean.

7:24Noel King:And Loomer has done a full reversal to becoming very black and white. Putin is the bad guy. Russia is on the wrong side of the war morally. The war is Russia's fault. And she said that Russia, she said online that Russia deserves the Maduro or the Khomeini treatment, meaning that the U.S. should either capture or kill him. I mean, look, if I was president of the United States and Russia was supplying Iran with weapons, I would kill Vladimir Putin. You know, I would find a way for that world leader to tragically pass away from a heart attack very unexpectedly. Wow. OK, Laura Loomer, and let's talk bigger than Laura Loomer, because she is just one however bright personality within the MAGA universe.

8:14Noel King:So why do we care about her? Why does it matter that she's come back from Ukraine and said, I support Ukraine now? Because Trump likes her. Ah, a lot. Hi, Laura. Yes, we are. Well, you are something. What spirit you have. Laura. Laura Loomer. Thank you, honey, for being here. I appreciate it. You know, she can be a little nasty, but to me, she's always nice. So that's all that matters. I want her to stay that way, too. And she's expecting to come to the White House at some point this month and talk about it with him further. But he pays attention to what she writes. He promoted online her interview with Zelensky.

8:53Noel King:So that association kind of makes it okay or gives some political cover to other Republicans. We saw when Zelensky came to Washington for Graham's funeral and he met with Trump and that meeting went much better than some previous ones. And he had a lot of fans on the Republicans' side of the aisle already, but there was definitely a sense that Loomer coming out and becoming so pro-Ukraine made it more okay for Republicans to be so supportive of Zelensky than before when it was so divisive in the party. What about the pro-Russia voices on the right? Candace Owens, I'm thinking, Tucker Carlson, I'm thinking, are they showing any signs of wavering in their support?

9:39Noel King:No, and they're really getting into it with Loomer as a result of this. And similarly, those other right-wing podcasters are really breaking with Trump on starting the war in Iran and supporting Israel, and that's kind of deepening this rift in the movement over what America first means, or what people thought it meant versus what it means now. What has Trump said recently about Ukraine? Any sense? I mean, he's retweeting Laura Loomer, but any sense that he's changing his mind? He's definitely been warmer towards Zelensky than, I mean, you remember the first time Zelensky visited? Oh, yeah. And he basically got thrown out in the gutter.

10:21Noel King:Your country's in big trouble. Wait a minute. No, no. You've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble. I know. You're not winning. You're not winning this. And they had a, by all accounts, good meeting in Turkey on the sidelines of the NATO summit last month also. But he is still pressuring Zelensky to end the war. He still wants to have a good relationship with Putin. So again, he is not going as far as Lumer is. How much does it matter? I mean, look, Ukraine is fighting a brutal war. It has been for four and a half years. And I imagine if you are in Ukraine, either as a leader or civilian, you don't really, you struggle to care what the heck Laura Loomer thinks, right?

11:03Noel King:You have real desires. You have things you want the United States to do for you. So how much does it matter to Ukraine that But some MAGA personalities and maybe President Trump are more sympathetic to its cause. No, it's huge. I mean, they were thrilled with the Loomer visit. I mean, they they view U.S. support as critical. I mean, the Europeans are doing more, but there's a lot that the Europeans can't do that they need the U.S. for. And so actually, like a year ago, before the U.S. ambassador came to Washington, She and Zelensky came up with this plan that they needed to do better. They needed to counter what Russia had been doing to court American conservatives.

11:46Noel King:They needed to engage more with MAGA influencers, even if they were Ukraine skeptics. This was like their dream come true in terms of what they wanted to happen eventually. That if they could make their case to MAGA influencers, if they could get them to be more sympathetic, If they could get them to come to Ukraine and see things from their perspective, then that would be crucial to changing public opinion among Americans and maybe even Trump himself.

12:28Noel King:That was Isaac Arnsdorf of The Washington Post. When we come back, the smart money said Ukraine could not win this war. why the smart money hasn't been proven right yet.

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16:04Noel King:Ukraine. Ukraine Explained. It's Ukraine Explained. I'm Noelle King with Marcus Walker. He's the Ukraine bureau chief for The Wall Street Journal. Marcus, you recently wrote that Ukraine has Russia on its back foot. How? What do you mean? To understand what happened this year, I think we have to go back to the very beginnings of over the war, which were in 2014, when Russia seized Crimea and the eastern Donbass region in a smaller scale war. We turn tonight to the tension rising around the world as Russian President Vladimir Putin casts his shadow across the boundary of Europe and Russia. Russian troops moving swiftly to take control of military bases in Crimea.

16:45And at the time, Ukraine was a militarily weak country. Its army was pretty backward and had outdated equipment, although it fought hard as hard as it could. The society was politically divided, especially over its relationship with Russia and with the West and with Europe. And Russia seems to have drawn the lesson that Ukraine would be a pushover when it launched its full-scale invasion in 2022. And at the time, now four and a half years ago, even most Western governments and intelligence services thought that Russia would win the war

17:21easily. But instead, it turns out that in the meantime, the very fact of Russian pressure on Ukraine had somehow welded Ukrainians together and created a stronger, more united society and state that shared whatever the internal differences, at least the determination to have a country called Ukraine. And in the meantime, they did a lot of reforms to their country and to their military. And so when Russia launched a full-scale invasion, thinking this will be easy, the whole place will collapse like a house of cards if we do a little shock and awe operation. Instead, they found themselves in a full-scale war that they've been unable to win.

17:59On balance, Russia is really struggling to get any military result despite the investment of massive resources and the loss of incredible numbers of soldiers in trying to win this war. It just isn't able to turn its advantage in numbers into victory. And right now, it's hard to see Ukraine collapsing. However, Ukraine's a long way from winning outright. And the outcome of this war is ultimately still open and depends on many things.

18:28Noel King:Okay, but Ukraine must be doing something right on the battlefield. What is it doing right? Well, it has found ways to counteract Russia's advantage in numbers, in manpower, and in equipment. And above all, the asymmetric war that Ukraine has been fighting has come to rely heavily on drones. Ukraine has carried out one of the deadliest drone strikes on Russia so far, killing at least 13 people and wounding dozens more. Black smoke is hanging over the Russian city of Yaroslavl, the home of one of the country's biggest oil refineries, after a Ukrainian drone attack. On its know-how and on its skill at improvisation to develop a new form of drone warfare that other countries around the world have been trying to learn from, including the US military, including Middle Eastern countries, including Iran, and including other NATO countries in Europe.

19:19And of course, the Russians too. They've tried to copy Ukrainian drone tactics. And so there is a constant arms race here in terms of drone technology and tactics. And both sides are now using incredible numbers of these often very tiny weapons, often 12 or 15 inches big with four little propellers that can kill at ranges of 20, 30 miles.

19:42Noel King:What is Ukraine using the drones to do exactly? More and more things. They are both the most important tactical weapon at the front for killing Russian infantry. They are also using larger bomber drones with propellers or with wings to try and destroy Russian logistics to blow up trucks, transporting ammunition or other supplies on supply roads far behind the front. They're using long-range drones that can fly for a thousand miles or more to destroy Russian oil refineries deep inside Russia in an attempt to cut off the oil revenues that are vital for the Russian state and for Putin's ability to finance the war.

20:24On the front line, drones are also doing all sorts of work that humans used to do, such as transporting ammunition and food and water to the infantry soldiers in the front line. So if you go to front line areas now or anywhere near them, you can see ground drones, little remote control vehicles with big chunky wheels trundling along on their own with no human in sight. And they are doing a lot of the dangerous work near the front. They also, for example, evacuate wounded Ukrainian soldiers. They will lie down on these ground drones and be ferried out because that is better than having six men carry you out on a stretcher, where if you're hit again, then you might have seven casualties.

21:05Noel King:The idea of drone stretchers is mind-boggling, and it makes me wonder, how did Ukraine end up using drones in so many areas and so successfully? Is this just weaponry evolving the way it tends to do? Well, there is something particular. Obviously, in all wars, innovation happens very fast under the pressure of necessity. But there is something very particular about Ukraine. It is a country of people who like to improvise. It's also a country with a large software sector, a large IT sector, many, many people with tech skills. And it's a place where large parts of the military have a culture of, as we journalists sometimes put it, of trying to MacGyver solutions.

21:49You take what you have and you improvise. And it so happened that the drone revolution started with consumer drones, the same kind of quadcopters that people were using to take pictures on holiday or to photograph a wedding. And they worked out ways to attach a claw to them that can then drop a grenade or strap some explosives to it and crash the whole drone into a Russian vehicle. That was how it began at the start of this war in 2022. But now these things have become really a deadly fleet of flying killer robots that saturates the frontline area. But of course, the Russians are doing the same.

22:25So on both sides of the frontline, it has become extremely difficult and dangerous to move under a sky full of these killer robots.

22:32Noel King:Yes, killer robots. My gosh. I was reading this weekend that Ukraine has been using drones to target warehouses for this company called Wildberries. It's kind of like Amazon for Russia. So what's the strategy there? Well, there are a couple of aspects to that. One is that Wildberry has also been selling a large amount of military gear, such as body armor or drone components. So it's more like an Amazon from which the army soldiers can order a lot of gear to continue the war. So it is a way of disrupting military logistics. But also it strikes a blow to Russian civilian perceptions of the war because for years Putin tried to tell the Russian population that this war was something happening far away and it wouldn't touch them directly.

23:17Now it turns out that their equivalent of Amazon deliveries are not going to be arriving because the warehouse burned down. At the same time, it's a way of damaging the Russian economy because Wildberries also owes a lot of money to banks. And so if the company is in trouble, then it also causes trouble for the Russian banking system. And it hurts the tax revenues of the Russian government that pay for the war.

23:40Noel King:Is Russia showing evolution on the battlefield as well? Yes, they have. They have also come up with their own innovations. For example, in the last couple of years, since about 2024, they've been using large numbers of drones on fiber optic cables. That means the pilot that's flying them is attached via a long, thin plastic cable, or fiber optic cable, to a drone that carries a spool and is unspooling this cable as it flies. Now, what does that do? It means that electronic interference with the radio signal is no longer possible because there is a physical connection between the pilot and the drone.

24:17So that was an innovation that bypassed electronic warfare or the interception of the radio signal, of the video feed that pilots need to fly their drones. And they've had other innovations too. The Russians last year, for example, came up with a whole new class of medium-range drones, and these were cheap fixed-wing drones. The Ukrainians have now responded and made their own versions, which are better. But it really is a constant race of innovation and adaptations. And every time I come back and talk to military units here, everything's changed. The tactics that worked last year no longer work.