Minneapolis vs. ICE

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0:39Astead Herndon:Hi, and welcome to Today Explained Saturday. I'm Ested Herndon, and every week I'll be talking to someone in the news, in the culture, or just exploring an idea I can't get out of my head. This week, we're in Minneapolis, where thousands of federal immigration agents have descended on the city in recent months. And it's also the site of the fatal killing of Renee Good, the protester who was shot and killed by ICE officers actually not too far from here. By now, we've all seen the video, and we've heard the statements from President Trump in his cabinet. But I wanted to dig in deeper into the context behind this fatal encounter.

1:11Astead Herndon:Why is ICE in Minneapolis in the first place? What happens if Donald Trump invokes the Insurrection Act? And what are Democrats going to do to push back against federal officials? So this week, I talked to Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison, And I put all those questions in front of him.

1:35Astead Herndon:Attorney General Keith Ellison, thank you for joining us, particularly at this difficult time for your state. Good to see you, Asted. I wanted to talk to you not only because of the recent news, but also because you have had a history here in Minnesota. Also, the political questions I think have come up for Democrats, for you and others in response to Donald Trump's deployment here in Minnesota. Sounds good. Obviously, one of the unique things about this incident is how quickly the White House moved to place blame on the victim. Secretary of State Kristi Noem said this was an act of domestic terrorism almost immediately.

2:04Astead Herndon:Vice President J.D. Vance said that Renee Goode was a, quote, deranged leftist. I wanted to know, did those statements impact your ability to go about your job? And if so, how? Yeah, I thought they were deeply callous, and I thought they showed no compassion for Ms. Good or her family or her children or anyone. I thought to myself, this can't be how these officials are handling this. Normally, officials in my position and in theirs say, wait, let's do an investigation. We're very sorry for all concerned here. That's been Democrats and Republicans. Democrats and Republicans. This is the normal way that we do these things.

2:43But we're not doing these things the normal way. And they came out swinging, justifying the actions of the officer right away. And my thought is, if the officer is as innocent as you claim that he is, why not? Let's just have an investigation and then say, look, you know, this is a horrible tragedy. But here's the conclusion that we've come to after reviewing the evidence. That is not what they did. and that just really is another reminder of how much we're in new territory right now.

3:14Astead Herndon:You know, I don't want to make a one-to-one comparison to what Republicans said and what Democrats have said, but, you know, Mayor Jacob Fry here did famously say, get the F out of our city to ICE. You did have Governor Walz kind of characterizing this as an occupation. Do those statements from Democrats turn the temperature down or were they also, you know, part of a turning up of tension? No, because those statements were made in reaction to the escalation in which there was no democratic conduct that sort of brought this escalation on. So the dramatic escalation happens regardless of what either one of them say, temperate or intemperate.

3:54And I will say this, part of what it means to be an elected official is to channel the emotional vector of your electorate.

4:03Astead Herndon:Of course, the latest escalation from the federal government was the announcement that the Justice Department is now investigating Governor Tim Walz and makeup Jacob Fry and saying they impeded officers from doing their work here. I was going to put that in front of you. How do you see these criminal subpoenas and have Democrats in Minnesota impeded the federal government from what they would say is lawful immigration enforcement? Well, you've just pointed out that the mayor and the governor are under federal investigation. You know who's not under federal investigation? Well, Jonathan Ross. That's who's not under investigation.

4:40So that gives you some window into the justice element of this, right? This is clearly a weaponization of the criminal justice system, just like Letitia James, just like James Comey, just like others who have been unjustly targeted out of revenge, out of malice, out of retribution. His word, right? The president's word.

5:10Astead Herndon:We've seen reporting that the federal government has shut out state and local agencies from the investigation into Renoi Good's killing. Is that true? And what's the status of the federal investigation and its relationship to what you all are doing in the state? From the federal government's perspective, what we know is at least three or four things. Thing number one, the United States Department of Justice Civil Rights Division, whose job it is to investigate use of four death cases, has declined before there's been any investigation. Has declined to open an investigation. They have said publicly, we will not even open an investigation.

5:43So there's that. And these are the people whose job it is to do this work. We've seen six assistant U.S. attorneys quit because they were told, you're going to investigate Renee Good and Becca Good, her wife, and we're not doing any investigation on Renee Good's death. They quit in response to that. That's the other thing that happened. As you've already noted, state and local prosecutors have been informed that they're not going to be allowed to have access to the investigative file that the FBI has acquired so far. And what's in that file? You know, things like bullet casings, things like the car, which has the windows, which can help show trajectory.

6:27So you all don't have access to the car? At this point, no. We're hoping that the federal government changes its mind because it's so clearly unjust for them to deny. And in the past, these kind of investigations are done jointly.

6:39Astead Herndon:I guess one thing I was asking, though, is because of the degree to which Donald Trump made clear that his plans were to, you know, ramp up a mobilization in cities like Minneapolis, and because of the kind of growth we've seen over the last several months, is there anything that state officials could have done to prevent what has now become a deadly encounter? Like, is there a way that that kind of telegraphing could have been an off-ramp and that off-ramp wasn't taken? Well, this is a good question. I'm glad you asked it. And I would have to say not to my knowledge, because our lawsuit, we're not saying that ICE doesn't have a right to exist in Minnesota.

7:19ICE existed before and we didn't sue them. ICE, even ICE has an obligation to abide by the law and to obey the Constitution, the Fourth Amendment. They have a obligation to not break and violate things like the Administrative Procedures Act. And the policy of the government through ICE cannot be arbitrary or capricious. And they can't violate the sovereignty of the state of Minnesota vis-a-vis the Tenth Amendment. So, yeah, if ICE would have come here, and even if they'd have had more people, and then just operated in the way that ICE historically has operated, which some agree with and some don't, I tend to be not that big of a fan.

8:08But I don't question their existence. But this lawsuit is about their conduct now.

8:15Astead Herndon:One thing I was going to ask, and this is not, again, I don't want to be placing blame on individuals. Yeah, you're asking a good question. in this, but I want to put it in front of you. Like, these are peaceful protests, yes, but they are disruptive ones. And there are folks who are coming out with the purposes of, at minimum, annoying ICE, but at maximum, disrupting some of their activities. And we've heard that even from folks who go out on these things. Do those actions, are those actions contributing to the environment of fear that we feel? Look, in America, you have a right to express your views and peacefully assemble.

8:50That exercise of your right may be annoying to someone else. There's no guarantee under the First Amendment that everyone that speaks will say things that you find pleasing and agreeable. But the problem is exceeding the boundaries of the law.

9:09Astead Herndon:But what about things like blocking them on the street? What about things like, you know, some of the whistles that we have seen? Well, see, that whistle—let's talk about whistles. How is blowing a whistle impeding the lawful exercise of a warrant for the arrest of an undocumented person? Now, can you assault an ICE officer? No, you're going to be arrested for that. Can you— Then you'll impede them. Well, like, define that word, though. I mean, because what they say impeding and what a court might say is impeding is different. So can you physically block them? No, you can't do that. You can't.

9:46You cannot physically block them. Can you criticize them as you're not blocking them? Yes, you can. You know, so there's a whole range of conduct that Christy Noem wants to say is impeding, but it's not impeding. It's First Amendment protected activity. And there are laws that, you know, people, you know, have to obey, like obstruction of legal process. But that is not just interrupting. It's interfering. Right. I mean, these things do make a difference, right?

10:19Astead Herndon:I guess I'm saying, have Democratic officials done enough to tell their own kind of activist community, even though I know some of, you know, have told their own kind of protest anti-Ice community about that distinction? I think so. Have they done enough to make clear that these folks are doing what you say in terms of peacefully protesting and not obstructing? I think the answer is clearly yes, because there has not been—look, there are some people who've broken the law and they've been arrested. And by the way, as a person who got arrested protesting in my youth, when you decide to do civil disobedience, you know what's coming next.

10:53But that's not been what most people are doing.

10:55Astead Herndon:You know, Trump has also consistently threatened to invoke the Insurrection Act. He has. And he has said that specifically about Minnesota even recently. I want to, you know, maybe for folks who don't know, let's be clear that the Insurrection Act would allow Donald Trump to deploy federal forces without congressional authority. what could amount to a seeming federal occupation of Minnesota. I wanted to know, have you all had, as Democratic state officials, had conversations about what to do if Donald Trump does invoke the Insurrection Act? Of course. So what is a plan of pushback? I mean, how would the state respond to that level of escalation?

11:30In court. This is something that can be tested and challenged in court, and we would do so. We've been thinking that this is a possibility and have been hoping that it didn't happen, but planning for the eventuality if it did.

11:44Astead Herndon:What would a federal, what would Insurrection Act mean for Minnesotans? Like, what would Minnesota under the Insurrection Act mean? It would mean that we had federal active duty troops patrolling our streets. It would mean that they'd probably be guarding ICE as ICE went about what it does, which is concerning because the way ICE does its business has been proven over and over again to be deeply problematic. It would not mean that the elections would be suspended. That's something that people should know. The Insurrection Act does not give Trump the right to suspend the election. We will that but but it's so but but like putting troops active duty troops in the streets of Minnesota is extremely problematic.

12:36I mean, the reason that the framers of the Constitution broke with Imperial Britain is over this, you know, and so it can't it's hard to describe how bad it would be in damaging for our society. Plus, the Insuretern Act requires that the president show that the local authorities have been overwhelmed and can't do the job or won't do the job. And neither one of those things are true.

13:08Astead Herndon:I think even about the defund the police kind of slogans that came out of some of the George Floyd summer and people now looking at the calls to abolish ICE and wondering if those things are the same thing. I wanted to put that in front of you. Someone who's seen both of those things up close. When you hear calls now to abolish ICE, what do you think about that? And is that the solution for Minnesota? But the slogan was on the stage. But what they were saying was more reform-ish. So, and then, next thing you know, every Republican in America is accusing Democrats of defund the police. So I believe that was always a political strategy because Republicans correctly said no, that most people do like their police department and even low income black communities tend to say we want good police.

14:03But we do want but we don't want to get rid of the police.

14:06Astead Herndon:Yeah, well, let's sit here for a second, because I do think that what you're saying is important in that it was not a mass call from the Democratic Party or Democratic elected officials to say defund the police. And I think, you know, to the event you're talking about, it was more of an activist push that that was around politicians. Right. More so than it was Democrats kind of embracing it themselves. I guess I would say then, before we get to the abolish ICE, did Democrats do enough then to make the distinction you're talking about and say, hey, yes, the activists are saying this, but we know our communities want some form of reform?

14:40Astead Herndon:Because I don't think that was that clear at the time. As a politician, I would say, look, I work with law enforcement. We embrace and lift up our members of law enforcement who live up to the high standards we ask of them. and the ones that don't deserve to be police officers. And then my Republican opponents would say, you're for defunding the police. It was a political slogan that they were buying ads to try to perpetuate. You've got to answer my question. Were Democrats too deferential to activist language at that time? I would say what I'm trying to say is no. No, but obviously we should have, could have maybe done more because too many people believe that narrative.

15:28But I would say that as a person, what I was offering myself as one. So what I mean is if I stop and say, and just all I do is just completely devote myself into refuting this false claim, then they've got me still. Even though, even if I convince people, half the people that I never said defund the police, the reality is the people who might just vote for me, they want to hear me talk about wages and housing and health care. But I'm not talking about that because I'm talking about what they're trying to make me talk about. So that is sort of the catch 22 of the Democratic politician.

16:04Astead Herndon:But one thing I will say is, just to belabor the point, did Democrats present an affirmative vision of criminal justice reform, of law enforcement reform in that summer that counterbalanced defund the police enough? I would say as a person who likes to be real with myself, maybe we could have or maybe we should have. I will tell you that one group of people would say we talked about it too much and we should have spent more time talking about an affirmative vision. And then there's some people who say we didn't refute the negative vision enough. At the end of the day, Democrats had a tough year and maybe we could have done more.

16:48Maybe we should have done more.

16:49Astead Herndon:Now, in this moment, where there is an opportunity for Democrats to make a pitch specific around ICE and immigration, law enforcement, do you see the calls to abolish ICE as the same as some of the progressive pushes from years ago? I just don't see nobody I'm talking to is saying that. No one's saying abolish ICE? I mean, let me be clear. I'm not saying no one's saying that. Okay. I'm saying that as an elected official who asked people to vote for me, I'm not running into anyone who's saying that. One more question on this before we move off. I wanted to ask also about the argument the Trump administration is making that this is in response to Minneapolis being a sanctuary city.

17:28Astead Herndon:It's not a sanctuary city. Yeah, and I know that this distinction matters a lot. They have said that, in essence, that city and state officials do not cooperate with immigration officials, that they cannot go into the jails to round up accused criminals, which is the reason why they are out in communities. I wanted you to respond to that. First of all, it's a separation ordinance. Yes. And second of all— What does that mean? Well, what that means is that we're not paid, we're not compensated, and it's not our statutory obligation to be functionaries and deputies of ICE. We have other jobs that need to be done.

18:06Our police need to worry about domestic violence, car theft, murder, gun-related crimes. we cannot be enforcing the immigration code. There's a whole department devoted to that from the federal government, and they need to go do that. And that is what I—that's pretty much—it's pretty simple.

18:27Astead Herndon:But there are arguments that you all are blocking them from that enforcement. That's a lie. It's not true. So the question of them being able to go into jails and find somebody, is that true? Everyone who has a legal right to enter a jail goes into the jail. I mean, that's what it is. The fact is, is that actually the Department of Corrections alerts people who have immigration status. They alert ICE. But to hold them there beyond the amount of time that they would legally, and I'm talking about the detainees. If a court determines that a detainee should be released based on, say, a DUI, then they're going to be released.

19:08and it's not the business of the state of Minnesota to hold people beyond that charge. If somebody is there to pick them up because they got other legal problems, that's on them to do.

19:24Astead Herndon:The state is free to execute its immigration detainers, but what Minnesota's not doing because of said separation ordinance is they're not making it their business to hold people longer or do something above and beyond for the purposes of... We believe he would expose the state of Minnesota to liability to hold someone beyond the amount of time that the court has deemed them to be held based on what they're charged with. But if somebody is there to collect them, they can collect them and have been doing so.

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