Miss Piggy, feminist diva

0:00Noel King:How old do you think Miss Piggy is? That is such a good question. I would say it's a little confusing because her relationship with Kermit and her kind of yearning girlishness for him would suggest a younger woman, right? But on the other hand, her empowered rage and over-the-top stylings would suggest a woman in full flourish. So, you know, I would say a ripe woman in her 40s or 50s, maybe. From hacks to the housewives to pluribus, onscreen depictions of women in middle age and later life are more three-dimensional and unapologetic than possibly ever. What's Miss Piggy got to do with that? Coming up on Today Explained from Vox.

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2:07Noel King:You are, my view, one of America's leading critics at this point in history. Why are you writing about Miss Piggy? What's going on? I take femininity seriously. I find femininity a fascinating art form, a tool, a guide, an exploration and experimentation. And I believe Miss Piggy, over several decades since the mid-70s when she came into being, has been such a fascinating window into how American culture looks at women who are larger than life and refuse to be anything else. Okay, before I ask you about her arc, who is Miss Piggy? God, how can you sum up Miss Piggy? Miss Piggy, you know, in the beginning was seen and played as a delusional woman who comes from like a hard background who decided to launch her career through beauty pageants and make her way, you know, into the limelight, so to speak.

3:18Small time girl trying to make it in the big city. Oh, yeah. And then I come home. And you found her in a small club. No, no. Oh, no. I picked her up in a bus terminal. In the Midwest on a farm. Oh. Yes, yes. I was, uh... This is humorous? Yes, yes, bro. Everyone had to grow up somewhere. She has definitely become an emblem not for a woman being delusional, but for a woman making the argument that her most interesting art piece is herself. One knows what you want to see. You want glamour? You want pizzazz? Well, you have come to the right thing. And so now the star she was delusional about being, she actually is.

4:05Noel King:Hmm. When did Miss Piggy first appear on The Muppet Show? And what was her job back then? When Miss Piggy first first appeared, she didn't have a name. and she showed up in the mid-70s sort of pilot for The Muppet Show called Muppet Sex and Violence. Ladies and gentlemen, presenting the end of sex and violence on television. Which you wouldn't think they would have something like that. And she was just a beady-eyed sort of chorus pig. But in a couple years, like I would say by 78, 1978, she had coalesced into a more formidable figure. This is for you, Herbie. Here it goes. She had the, you know, opera length gloves, the feather boa.

5:03Ah, this is me reeking grandeur. Being aloof? Ah, being the mirror. She actually had, you know, these big eyes with eyelashes and an iris, so it gives her an interesting humanity. She had her blend of arch aggression and, like, put upon whispery femininity. And one of her early appearances in 1978 was on this British TV show called Parkinson. Well, I'm going to make a special introduction, in fact, to Miss Piggy because I think she's so sensational. I mean, the really most beautiful, beautiful creature that I've ever set eyes and I really mean it. And she is so, so funny. You have such deep blue eyes.

5:54Yes, and you have... Pedram eyes. And you see this blend of innuendo and just, like, confidence that I think has become the signature for Miss Piggy. So even though, like, in 1974, 1975, she was just a beady-eyed chorus pig, she, within a few years, became the Miss Piggy we've grown to love today.

6:21Noel King:And then how does she evolve from there? So we go from the late 70s up into the present day. We're talking about a 50-year time span. What kinds of changes have we seen in the character in the last five decades? Those 50 years are really fascinating. We have, you know, images of Miss Piggy and things like the great Muppet caper. We see her in a smaller role in the Muppets Christmas Carol, although I think she has the best line reading in that movie. And therefore, I'm about to raise your salary. And I am about to raise you right off the pavement. And so what you see in both the movies and her appearances, like, I would say, 80s and 90s, is like this blend of aggression and femininity.

7:07But I would say while, you know, you see a lot in the 80s and 90s, her still being seen as like larger than life and fascinating, sometimes her weight or her appetite or her aggression, it's a punchline that could easily make her a joke. For our last aerobic exercise, let's work out on the candy bars. Ready? Remove the wrapper, raise the candy, take a bite and crunch, crunch, crunch and chew. But by now, you know, if you talk to the people who actually bring the Muppets to life, the producers, the designers like I did for my piece, you learn that they're very aware of the fact that audiences no longer see those aspects of Miss Piggy as a detriment.

7:56Why do you think that is? I think there's a number of reasons, actually. On one hand, I definitely think that we are seeing pretty much the end of the larger-than-life woman movie star, right? And so Miss Piggy is filling that void. So there's that. I also think that Miss Piggy, you know, her audience, when it comes to like later Gen Xers, millennials, are people who look at these sort of contradictions as fascinating rather than against femininity, but an aspect of femininity that deserves to be not just praised, but probably Miss Piggy's mind, worshipped. So there's, I think, a lot going on with gender today that really also fuels why people find Miss Piggy so fascinating because she's such an outlier.

8:51Noel King:You write that in 2026, the people behind Miss Piggy understand that what was once a kind of locus of mockery is now something that people really like. What actually changed, do you think? Is it the way she's being presented that's changed? Is it us who have changed? What happened? I honestly think it's us. I think in large part, it's where we're at culturally with stardom, with femininity, with the gender wars happening, which has always been happening, it seems like. But has taken on new dimensions where, you know, being an independent woman who believes in yourself can be kind of dangerous to the order the world and certain people who run the world expect of women.

9:40And so, you know, a lot of it is where we're at culturally, but also I think it's important to acknowledge that the change I am arguing about with Miss Piggy happened when she was handed over to Eric Jacobson, who is such a fascinating performer. When I got to interview him, I was really struck by how, you know, quiet and measured and reserved he is. I was like, you would never know this is the person who makes Miss Piggy Miss Piggy. And he said something to me that has really stuck with me and didn't make it into the final piece where he said Miss Piggy didn't have to die young like Marilyn Monroe to be eternal.

10:22Noel King:Damn, I like that. I really like that. What do you think our love of Miss Piggy says about what we want and what we don't want from women on screen, particularly more mature women? I think Miss Piggy is able to be a diva all the way down in a way real life women kind of can't anymore. but I think what Miss Piggy also communicates the interest in her communicates at least is that there is some acknowledgement on some cultural psychological level that there is a wisdom an older woman can provide that no one else can unfortunately when we are talking about flesh and blood women who mess up who sometimes marry partners who treat them terribly or who make mistakes because they're human, you know, they're not allowed the leeway Miss Piggy is because she's not real as much as she feels real.

11:30Noel King:Angelica Jade Bastion, you can read her at New York Magazine. When we come back, there are some real women who are changing our idea of what mature ladies look like and act like for better and for worse.

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14:25I'm Today Explained. Because those other shows? Yesterday's news.

14:34Noel King:Nomi Fry is a staff writer at The New Yorker. She co-hosts their culture podcast, Critics at Large. We called Nomi to talk about, of all things, The Real Housewives. I mean, I think one of the places that we go to as a culture to see representations of kind of loud, proud, fully ripe, if you will, women. I won't, but you can. is Bravo's Real Housewives franchise. I don't keep up with the Joneses. I am the Joneses. It may look like I have it all, but I want more. I'll always have your back if you stop stabbing me in mine. In which we see groups of women in, you know, in different cities live out loud, going frankly through midlife and having kind of like relationships with each other, obviously, which is kind of the crux of the show.

15:34It's about groups of women. But also, you know, kind of going about the business of midlife, which might be kind of kids getting older. When you were in first grade and fourth grade and eighth grade, I was like, what is this child going to do in her life? And I'm just proud of the lady that you are. Relationships with their partners, possibly divorce. And I'm actually making a good decision before it turns into a bad situation. And I don't want that for my children.

16:05Noel King:I like your optimism, but I had it too. Sometimes death. Older parents. Alzheimer's is terrible to watch somebody go through. Career challenges or triumphs that come to women in midlife. And I thought the alcohol was a great idea. I really looked up to what you did, and I thought it would be a great way for me to get ahead. Just thought I would have a couple of things, the rosé and the Prosecco. You know, we see kind of all of that on our screens when we watch these shows. So Real Housewives has been on for 20 years? Mm-hmm. If we look over the past 20 years, understanding that, as you said, these are women in a certain phase of life, do you think the way that they are being portrayed or the way they feel comfortable portraying themselves, because this is reality TV, do you think that's changed?

16:58Noel King:Like, has it evolved at all? I think the type has become much more familiar. You know, 20 years is a not unremarkable span of time. Close to a generation, yeah. Yeah. And I think when the show began, there was a bit more surprise or like a tinge of like scandal or worry about women, you know, in their 40s and 50s kind of like throwing down on reality television in a way that I think we were used to seeing maybe younger people do. And with the housewives, it was suddenly like, okay, these women who are like, have run like an insurance empire or something and are like 48 years old are suddenly like catfighting with each other or, you know, having affairs or what have you.

17:54And I think maybe the impression was that it was a little unseemly. And I think over the past 20 years, it's become much less remarkable. Of course, you can associate that with a kind of crassening maybe of our culture and us becoming a nerd to what reality TV can do and what types of behaviors it can represent on our screens. But I think it also maybe has to do with, yeah, the level of comfort with seeing older women on screen doing whatever the fuck they want. Do you know?

18:37Noel King:Do you, if we were to talk about middle-aged women, mature women, whatever euphemism you want to use, women of a certain age, before Real Housewives, how were they portrayed on air? Like, where did we see them? What shows? You know, it's really crazy. Like, when you think about it, really, it was like the picture of the Golden Girls, you know, the cast of the Golden Girls. Yeah, yeah. The 1980s sitcom. You'll just have to grow old along with the rest of us. I couldn't go old if I had to look like the two of you. Which was about like four retirees. And they're all like kind of like basically gray haired or white hair wearing like smocked flower tops, kind of like retiree garb.

19:23Iconic, but like palpably old or elderly looking women. and it's like you know these women were only like 52 when the show was you know aired like they were

19:35Noel King:like well we didn't know that was the thing i didn't know until that meme started circulating mostly they were women who were kind of middle-aged like they weren't even really old yet and yet it was like okay we're putting them out to pasture you know they're not really trying to still kind of like retain their kind of like vavroom and kind of their sexual vibrancy and or their professional out and aboutness, right? This was about retirees. And so I think when I think about like the shift that has happened, for better or worse, and we can talk about it, you know, in some of the ways in which this might not have been like absolutely great in all respects, but certainly thinking about women in midlife as still potentially attractive, potentially sexual, desiring and desirous subjects in the prime of their life rather than sunsetting into an early retirement as soon as you say hit 50 or something.

20:41I think I think that's that's really changed.

20:45Noel King:You know, the the evidence for this, if you look at the show Hacks, for example, I've got all these eyes on me now. I'm finally respected. Anything I want to do, I have to do now. I remember sitting down to watch Hacks one day after a long run, very exhausted. Everyone had been talking about it. And I was like, she is supposed to be in her 70s. 70s yeah that like felt like a major deal it's like this is a television show about a woman in her 70s i know and that sort of thing didn't really you know yeah i i don't really think that was like i mean maybe murder she wrote you know what i mean but again like angela lansbury was sort of like she was a woman out and about i guess solving murders but certainly she wasn't like shown in complexity you know as kind of like a person just a person a person who it happened to be in her 70s and that's part of her life the realities of getting older but she's not having sex right yeah yeah which deborah vance was yes yes yes absolutely i think that's a big that's a big part of it it's okay to like have sex past menopause or in menopause or you know it's like you don't necessarily have just have to be like a woman in the first bloom of uh you know pubescence to be considered sexual or to feel sexual or whatever else.

22:12And I think that's a big transition. And Hacks is an example of this. Deborah Vance, is this a booty call? Oh, don't be tacky.

22:21Noel King:Just get on your private jet and get over here. Let me ask you about two competing schools of thought regarding Real Housewives. So there's one school of thought that I've certainly heard, which is these women are like there's a lot of plastic surgery. There's a lot of behavior that you think of as associated, as you said, with younger people, but maybe isn't the most like decorous behavior for women of a certain age. And therefore, oh, this is actually kind of problematic versus Andy Cohen, who will defend the housewives by saying there's no show that's given a platform for women over 50 in this way in terms of expressing their sexuality and who they are.

22:58Noel King:OK, so two competing points of view. Which of them do you buy? Oh, God. I think I'm probably somewhere in the middle, which might sound wishy-washy. But I don't think it's easy. I would love to fall on one side of the debate. I think my life would be easier. Easier not just as a critic, but also as a woman who just, I just turned 50 this year. And so I think I would feel much more like if I embraced wholeheartedly the kind of like I'm 50, I'm out of the game and I'm fine with it, you know, or no, I'm going to like remake my face from scratch, you know, and spend one hundred thousand dollars getting a facelift or whatever you want to, you know, however you want to paint it.

23:48my life would be easier, but I think just because the kind of internal debate wouldn't be kind of alive in me in a way that sounds more serene. But I think a lot of women are probably in a similar position to my own, whether in our own lives or in relationship to this kind of like housewives debate, which is like Andy saying, no, you know, these women can do whatever they want. And they're grabbing the bull by the horns. They're kind of embracing their own agency and kind of like path of aging. And like they're going to Lauren Sanchez it into the sunset, you know, or not into the sunset, into Mars or, you know, versus like, no, women should be allowed to grow older.

24:34Women should be allowed to look like Bea Arthur and still be on TV, you know. And so I think we need to realize what kind of world we're living in. But also I would love, I mean, I often say like, can we just return to like 70s feminism? Like enough. I can't. I can't. I can't with this rat race. I can't with like, oh shit, now I have to worry about my jawline. Like, let me just let me rest. Why can't I be? It's just like, what a, how tiring. You know, let me rest.

25:24Noel King:That was the New Yorkers' Nomi Fry. Danielle Hewitt produced today's show and Amina El-Sadi edited. Bridger Dunningin and David Tadishore are our engineers. And Miles Bryan checked the facts. The rest of the team includes Hadi Mawagdi, Peter Balanon, Rosen, Patrick Boyd, Kelly Wessinger, Ariana Espudu, Dustin DeSoto, Gabriel Donatov, and Sean Ramos. Our managers are Avishai Artsy and Jolie Myers. EP is Miranda Kennedy. We use music by Breakmaster Cylinder. I'm Noelle King. Today Explained is distributed by WNYC, and the show is a part of Vox.

26:04Thank you.