Surviving online cringe

0:00Support for this show comes from the Working Forest Initiative. The working forest industry is committed to planting more trees than they harvest. More than one billion seedlings are planted in U.S. working forests every year. From biologists to GIS analysts, hiring managers, accountants, and more, working forest professionals have dedicated their focus towards sustainability, using their expertise to help ensure a healthy future for America's forests. You can learn more about Working Forest Initiatives at WorkingForestInitiatives.com. WorkingForestInitiatives.com. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start?

0:40Thumbtack knows homes, so you don't have to. Don't know the difference between matte paint finish and satin? Or what that clunking sound from your dryer is? With Thumbtack, you don't have to be a home pro. You just have to hire one. You can hire top-rated pros, see price estimates, and read reviews all on the app. Download today.

1:02Jonquilyn Hill:This is probably my most controversial take, and I will probably regret posting this online. I thought I could just post that stuff, get famous, and then, you know, move on. Nobody ever lets me forget it. The odds are, you've said something, you probably don't want to see the light of day. The internet is this archive of all these different versions of ourselves. There's the teenage fan. I was really into the Twilight books. So there is a lot of stuff about how much I love Twilight that is still on the internet if you Google me. The pundit. Years ago when Black Lives Matter first started up, I posted something about all lives matter.

1:46And I feel really stupid about it. I've definitely come a long way.

1:51Jonquilyn Hill:Or if you're me, there's the reporter for your college TV station. Virginia. It's not just for lovers anymore. Now it's also for presidential candidates. I was absolutely dressing for the job I wanted. I've got a power suit, pearls, poorly applied makeup. Add in the shaky camera work and wow. The Old Dominion state, along with New Hampshire, North Carolina, Florida, Ohio, Wisconsin, Iowa, Colorado, and Nevada, make up the nine battleground states that may decide this election. I know you know this feeling. And if you're Gen Z or a millennial, you've got it bad. We've preserved basically every stage of our lives online.

2:36Jonquilyn Hill:Every crush, every night out, every ill-informed opinion. Now, I'm not talking about offensive stuff that'll get you canceled. I'm talking about all the other old stuff. Those mementos of past you that make present you cringe. For Spotlight Network, I'm John Flynn Hill. And this week on Explained to Me from Vox, online regret and what to do about it. Hi, my name is EJ Dixon, and I am a senior writer for The Cut at New York Magazine. E.J. recently wrote an article called The Most Embarrassing Thing I've Ever Written. It's about something she published back in 2016. So the article that I wrote about for that piece was an essay I wrote called, it's embarrassing to even say the headline, Why I Want Donald and Melania's Marriage.

3:32Jonquilyn Hill:What did you mean by that when you said, oh, this is the marriage I want? Well, OK, so some context. I had just gotten engaged at the time. So something I was thinking a lot about was compatibility and the way that two people can sort of craft an ideal partnership for themselves. And there was a lot of talk at the time because Trump had either just won the nomination or was about to win the nomination about Trump and Melania. And there was a lot of scrutiny on their marriage and a lot of questions, as there are questions today, about their marriage and how they make it work because she is never around and sort of like recedes in the background.

4:17And people were very confused about that. Where was Melania? Everyone's asking, where's Melania? We don't see you that often. You're not on the campaign trail. How do you feel about campaigning? Well, it's my choice not to be there. I support my husband 100%. And I guess the argument I was trying to make was that this is a dynamic that works for them, even if we don't necessarily understand it on the surface. Like, that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't work for them. But I think that the way it was framed was probably the most reductionist way, an embarrassing way possible. And obviously, I mean, it aged like milk.

5:06So I'm talking about like how much I hate the Trumps and how gross I find their marriage and how like I don't want my marriage to be anything like that. But then I have this caveat. And yet I can't help but admire how the Trumps have settled on a clearly defined division of labor in their marriage, how both partners have negotiated their terms to carve out their own spaces for each other and for themselves. To me, the Trumps represent not the 21st century ideal of an equal-footed feminist relationship, but a more complicated and frankly interesting conception of marriage. That two people can enter a partnership carving out specific roles and maintain a harmonious domestic balance accordingly.

5:52They are not two halves of the same whole so much as they are two complementary pieces in a 1 ,200-piece jigsaw puzzle reproduction of an abstract expressionist painting. That last sentence is like – like that's a very cringe sentence to write about the fucking Trumps. But like I agree with that. You know? Because they're still – how long have they been married? Yeah. I mean they're still together. They're making it work. And marriage at the end of the day is about like making it work however the fuck you can. So I still stand by that. And I think I'm actually surprised in retrospect by how nuanced and sophisticated that insight was, considering how stupid I was.

6:37Jonquilyn Hill:Yeah. What about the piece is embarrassing? Is it just about the Trump of it all or is it anything more? It is about the Trump of it all. But I think beyond the Trump of it all, it's reflective of a certain era of the Internet. It was a product of an era of the internet that was very clickbaity, I think, where every headline was kind of demanding as much attention as possible. Like it was the era of like the Facebook algorithm where all of the headlines were like the one reason why you should care about like Chrissy Teigen's postpartum depression or something like that. and I feel like why I want Donald and Melania's marriage was very much in that tradition.

7:26So it's a little cringe and embarrassing like in that respect, like that I was sort of playing the game. But it was also an era of the internet that was very like earnest. And I write something in the piece that I wrote for The Cut that cringe is sort of, there's a formula for cringe which is like earnestness plus vulnerability plus underlying insecurity equals cringe. And at the time, like, I considered myself a very staunch feminist and a very staunch leftist. And I was a little insecure about the fact that, like, I was about to get married and, like, enter this institution. Ooh, you were about to do the patriarchy.

8:01Exactly, yeah. And I was insecure about that. And I was sort of, like, I could see myself, like, on the page trying to, like, justify it to myself because it was something that I was, like, insecure about. And rereading it, like, that was very cringe to me. Like seeing my insecurities about my impending marriage and whether or not it was quote unquote feminist, like refracted in Donald and Melania Trump of all people. Like it's just really stomach turning and like embarrassing to read. And in retrospect, like, why did I think this was anybody's business? Yeah.

8:35Jonquilyn Hill:You know, I think it's interesting. You talked about like that. I call it the personal essay industrial complex. I mean, the whole Internet was one big live journal. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about how that factored into your choice in writing different stuff back then? It was a time when vulnerability was really encouraged. And for like a very, very small amount of money, young women were encouraged to really just like expose the most vulnerable parts of themselves. And honestly, like in the grand scheme of things, I wrote things that were way more embarrassing than that. I talk about in the cut piece about this piece that I wrote about, like, post-semen spillage, like, after sex.

9:19And, like, how me and my fiancé at the time, like, dealt with it. Do you shake it off? Like a cat coming out of the bath? Or a Taylor Swift backup dancer? Because you had to reference Taylor Swift in 2016. Shake it off! Or do you stand up and force it to seep out by jiggling around, like a preschooler at Gymboree? Do you wipe it down? And if so, who retrieves the towel? Do you do it in a house? Do you do it with a mouse?

9:48Jonquilyn Hill:I see. The thing is, I see you cringing in real time where you're just like, no. Yeah. I mean, I look back at that stuff and I'm just like, it's so emblematic of the era. And it's also just like, why? Like, why would I do that to myself? It's like, oh, that's a lot of information. What was I thinking? Like, why did I think? Like, why would that why did I think this would age well, like in the slightest? So what's changed for you since then? What's different now? Well, I think the industry has changed, obviously. I obviously have changed. I've, you know, grown up, matured, had kids. That's obviously been a big factor.

10:27Like, I don't want my kids to read the Seaman Spillage piece, you know. That's a big reason why I don't write about that kind of thing anymore. But I mean, I'm also a different kind of writer. Like shortly after I wrote that piece, Trump was elected and I started transitioning to covering, you know, online extremism. And I started working for Rolling Stone and started becoming, you know, an investigative journalist. And, you know, I didn't center myself in my work anymore. And I think that really benefited me both as a writer and like as a person. Like the thing that happens to everybody when they move from their 20s to their 30s, like in their personal life, happened to me as a writer as well.

11:08Like I just became, you know, professionally and personally, like I just shifted away from that, which I think was very beneficial. I think that there is something about that era of the Internet that I am nostalgic for and really miss. And like when we talk about it, we usually make fun of it. But I think there are things about it that that we should appreciate. everything I see about the way people talk about themselves on the internet today is so intricately curated and and branded and there's so much thought put into it it's not like you can just go on live journal and like you know blog about your period anymore and just hit post.

11:59There's just so much more work put into it. You can't just go on main and be messy. Like, I can't even remember the last time I've seen, like, a genuine crash out on TikTok or Instagram. And if there is, like, everybody just makes fun of that person. Yeah. And I, yeah, I just wish that there was more space on the internet for, like, genuine earnestness and vulnerability. Like, even if it is cringe, even if it is messy, like, we should be making room for that. We should be celebrating that.

12:27Jonquilyn Hill:Do you ever wish you could delete that past self from the internet, though? Of course. You're like, yes, absolutely. Of course I do. I mean, I know that's not, like, the right answer. I know that's not, like, what I should say. But I know I should say, like, no, I would like to preserve it in amber. Because it's imperfect, but it's beautiful. But no, there are, like, a million things I wish I could delete.

12:53Jonquilyn Hill:So you've got something embarrassing out there online. You could delete it, but should you? That's next.

13:26to find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across web and software development, data and analytics, marketing, business operations, and more. They say they can help you grow your business by giving you fast access to specialized talent across 125-plus categories, so you can fill skill gaps, launch projects faster, and scale support up or down without committing to a full-time headcount. You can browse profiles, review past work, and get help scoping the role so you can hire with confidence and get started quickly. And with Business Plus, you can access the top 1 % of talent on Upwork. And with AI-powered shortlisting, you'll get matched to the right freelancer in under six hours.

14:11No endless searching required. You can visit Upwork.com right now to post your job for free and connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-R-O-K dot com. Upwork.com

14:31Support for Today Explained comes from HIMSS. Erectile dysfunction is more common than you think, but can also be simpler to treat than you think, too. With HIMSS, you can connect online with a licensed provider to access personalized treatment options, discreetly and on your terms. HIMSS can provide access to personalized prescription treatment options for ED if prescribed. And if prescribed, they say that their options range from personalized products to trusted generics that cost 95 % less than brand names. HEM says they are bringing expert care straight to you with 100 % online access to personalized treatments that put your goals first.

15:10You can step through to get back to your old self. It's not a one-size-fit-all approach. They say that they put your health and goals first with real medical providers making sure you get real results. You can get simple online access to personalized, affordable care for ED, hair loss, weight loss, and more by visiting hems.com slash explained. That's hems.com slash explained for your free online visit. hems.com slash explained.

15:45Jonquilyn Hill:We're back. I'm JQ. This is Explained It To Me. And the running joke online is never post. But let's say you ignored that wisdom. What do you do now? I'm Alexandra Samuel, and I'm a tech journalist. I write for The Wall Street Journal, and I'm the host of the podcast Me and Viv. Okay, Alex, what are your thoughts on deleting your online presence? Is that a good thing, a bad thing? Is it sometimes necessary? I think that you need to think about deleting things you've posted as curation and not deletion deletion. Mm. You really never know what is archived. You know, the Internet Archive keeps snapshots of all kinds of things on the Internet.

16:32So, you know, you need to be aware that when you delete something, it might be deleted for you. That doesn't mean it's deleted from the Internet. And actually, I think when you delete things, it's always a good idea to back them up before you delete them. Because, like, think about, imagine a scenario where you've posted something on Insta or wherever. you realize afterwards that you were kind of an idiot and you wish you hadn't said what you said and maybe you even had like on insta a back and forth in the comment thread where the person pointed out why what you said was insensitive and you showed some capacity for movement and learning well maybe you want to delete that because you don't really want that to be something people stumble across but if you delete it without archiving it then if it ever comes back to haunt you, you don't have that evidence of you learning in public.

17:21It's much better to make sure, like, take the screenshots, archive the thread, and back up all that context so that if it does still come back to haunt you, or even if you just want to reflect on, oh, do you remember that stupid thing I did in, like, you know, 2014? Well, yes, I do remember that stupid thing I did because here's the screenshot.

17:44It almost sounds like, I don't know, I don't know if you've ever gone back and

17:48Jonquilyn Hill:read old journals. Every time I do, I'm just like, oh, why did I read this? This is none of my business, what old me thought. You know, it's funny you said that. I've literally had that exact experience of rereading old journals, my college journals. It was a quite, put a very different spin on my first love affair when I read it with the wisdom of hindsight. And I do wish I hadn't reread it. So I think we just all need to realize that like, by definition, anything that is a snapshot is a two dimensional image of something that we experience, you know, as humans in at least three dimensions. And whether you're looking at your own history of something that you did, or even more, if you're looking at something you come across where someone else said something that seems to you ill-advised, like, I just wish we could have a little more tenderness and empathy and focus on what people learn and how we grow rather than, like, judging everyone by their most awful moment.

18:50Jonquilyn Hill:Do you have any advice for best practices when it comes to having a social media presence you won't be ashamed of in, like, five or 10 or, I don't know, 20 years? What I would say over now more than 20 years of working with people in organizations is that trying to have a social media presence where you never regret anything is a recipe for having a completely meaningless and stupid social media presence.

19:18Now, conversely, I think it's important to resist the lure of the hot take. Here are my insanely hot takes. Here are some hot takes that might get me canceled.

19:29Jonquilyn Hill:You guys ask, I listen. So here is part two, rapid fire of things that I think are hot takes, but secretly think a lot of you will agree with. But I think like what you need to do is try and chart that middle ground where you've got to not court controversy for its own sake. Because I think when you're deliberately like pushing people's buttons, that's where you end up saying things that don't reflect what you truly believe. But your goal is to have a social media presence where you never regret anything, then truly don't be online. And that's, I actually think, a really, really good option now.

20:05And if I were not like you, a journalist for whom part of the job is showing up online, I do not know if I would use social media anymore. That's real. Yeah. Because it's just so, there's just so much garbage and so much fakeness. And who needs it?

20:27Jonquilyn Hill:So it sounds like if you're going to share anything online, that feeling of regret may be inevitable. How do you survive it? A few different tactics. The first thing to do is take yourself out of it, depersonalize it, and think, if this were happening to a friend, and just see, like, okay, if it wasn't me who was being raked over the coals, what would I think here? Would I think this is super unfair? What I think, God, that was a really insensitive thing this person said and they should probably admit it. And really just try to be as kind to yourself as you would be if it was your best friend who was in this situation.

21:07Like picture this happening to your best friend. Don't hesitate to admit if you think you were wrong, but don't rush to respond either. Like you really, really, really need to close the computer, put the phone down. walk away. If you're like me, like I'm not some Zen practitioner. I can't just put things out of my head. This is why television exists. I like go and, you know, watch some super engrossing TV show to make myself not think about it. Talk to somebody else, like somebody with good judgment, you know, somebody you respect. Talk to one or two people and get them to look and say, what do you think?

21:44Should I respond? And then, you know, like, yeah, the internet moves quickly, But unless you are a celebrity and you're getting like 100 ,000 responses an hour, there's actually no reason that like the three crappy comments can't wait to be addressed the next day. And then, you know, you absolutely can say you're wrong. And I actually think one of the most powerful things that we can do as humans, as professionals, and as Internet users is to show that, like, you can be wrong and you can even be wrong on the Internet. And it doesn't kill you. It doesn't destroy your value as a human. And you know what?

22:27If you admit you're wrong, some people are still going to keep coming for you. But that's a bad look for them. It's not a bad look for you. And I think the more that we all accept the process of being wrong in public and, like, live with it, the less heated and terrifying it becomes and the more genuine we can be.

22:50Jonquilyn Hill:So the Internet stirs up all these complicated feelings. Could that be a good thing? That's next.

23:07Support for this show comes from IM8. If you're having a hard time finishing your day strong, then you might want to check out IM8's Daily Ultimate Essentials. It's a daily all-in-one wellness drink that gives my body the support it needs without juggling a bunch of different supplements. IM8's Daily Ultimate Essentials is a go-to for getting the benefits of 16 different supplements in one tasty drink. Co-founded by David Beckham and crafted with insight from experts at Mayo Clinic, Cedars-Sinai, and a former NASA chief scientist, it can simplify your wellness routine and make it easier to support your health.