The billionaire governor taking on Trump

0:00JB Pritzker:Adobe Acrobat Studio, your team's home base. Collaborate within a shared PDF space. You've got your docs, your plans, your specs. And then invite the crew to build what's next. They talk off the teamwork. They think that this design could be a contender. But when somebody wonders, what's the next step? AI helps you finish the rest. Bolts are tight. Now your plans are fine. Run a smoother business when you're all aligned. Do that with Acrobat.

0:27Astead Herndon:Learn more at adobe.com slash do that with acrobat. This week on Today Explained Saturday, I sit down with Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker, a billionaire, one of the most vocal Democratic governors in the country right now, and some of the Trump administration clearly has on its mind. We talked about his fight against ICE operations in his state. What he'll do if Trump actually invokes the Insurrection Act and deploys troops ahead of the midterm elections. And where are Democrats go from here? Because let's be real, the party is still searching for answers. And yes, I asked him the obvious question, too.

0:59Astead Herndon:Are you going to run for president? You'll want to hear what he has to say. So let's dig into it.

1:12Astead Herndon:Governor Pritzker, thank you for joining us. Great to be with you, Ested. I want to dig into everything from kind of the way Illinois has led on pushing back against the Trump administration, kind of future of Democrats. But I also wanted to say I was thinking about you recently because I'm learning how to play blackjack and poker and some stuff. And I was reading about just quite how good you are. I saw that you reported more than 1.4 in Vegas, 1.4 million in winnings from blackjack in Vegas. I wanted to know if this is like a normal week for you.

1:39JB Pritzker:Like, how do you make that happen? No, very lucky is the answer. And, you know, they're not in business to, you know, to give you money. So if you can win anything and walk away, you've done well.

1:50Astead Herndon:It was good to hear. You know, we want to talk about how you've positioned Illinois as a ground zero for kind of pushing back against Trump's immigration enforcement. You signed a law limiting ICE in Illinois. You created the Accountability Commission. You off-sued the federal government. I wanted to know, like, if you could describe what you would think the playbook that Illinois has laid out for what to do if Trump comes to town. How would you describe what that is?

2:13JB Pritzker:Yeah, well, I think – and I will say Minneapolis sort of adopted the playbook that we've been – not that they haven't added to it. But I think we went through this really first. I mean, developing that playbook. And what is it? It starts with making sure people know what their rights are. When ICE agents are banging on your door, do you have to open the door? What is it that they're allowed to do and not allowed to do? And then the second thing, and this is what I told everybody very early on, pull out your iPhone, pull out your Android phone, video everything. And I'm talking about not just the people who are being pursued, but people in the neighborhoods who want to protect their neighbors.

2:54JB Pritzker:And they did that. And we were able to use that evidence before we even created the Accountability Commission. That evidence came in handy when the ICE and CBP agents were taken to court here. And we won.

3:07Astead Herndon:Yeah. I mean, I wanted to dig into this because Trump gave you an ultimatum saying to activate the National Guard or they federalize your troops. You call that an authoritarian march. But at the end of the day, 300 guardsmen still came to Chicago. There were hundreds of arrests. Trump got the show he wanted, too. What do you think was the tangible impact of that playbook you're laying out? What do you think you all succeeded in resisting?

3:30JB Pritzker:Well, he federalized our National Guard but was not allowed to deploy them in our streets. They were never deployed in the city of Chicago. They had to stay on a federal base until it was determined by the court that indeed, including the Supreme Court, then indeed he doesn't have the ability to send his, you know, federalized National Guard or my National Guard into our streets.

3:53Astead Herndon:I wonder if the implication here is somewhat that blue states have been too timid in pushing back against Trump. It seems like implied in what you're laying out is a kind of call to action for other democratic states.

4:04JB Pritzker:Is that what you're saying? Well, it's certainly true that we've got to stand up and push back. And I'm talking about peaceful protests and encouraging people to do, as I've described, to video everything, to stand up. And by the way, I know that protesters hold up signs and they say – maybe the law enforcement agents feel like, oh, it's terrible things they're saying. But that is what protest is about, right? I mean people showing up and making their voices heard. And it's very important for us to protect that right.

4:32Astead Herndon:Yeah, but when you see some scenes in Minneapolis, I mean I know you've encouraged what you're describing as peaceful protests, accountability for officers. Trump administration has argued that that type of organized resistance has escalated tensions. Is there any concern that encouraging what you're calling citizen accountability that's also escalating the possibility of some of the clashes we saw in Minnesota? They're shooting moms in the face.

4:55JB Pritzker:Yeah. So peaceful protest seems like the least you could do and what we should be encouraging people to do. They've shot somebody here in Chicago five times for just observing from her car, Miramar Martinez. And also another man, Silverio Viegas Gonzalez, who was killed after dropping his two children off at daycare. He was in his car as well. But importantly, how should we react? And shouldn't people peacefully protest, for goodness sakes, and speak out? And more than that, right? I mean, take them to court, fight them in every way we can that's not violent.

5:35Astead Herndon:That's why people need to speak up. Looking ahead to the midterms, we talk to election experts and they say, you know, our kind of decentralized system is too disparate to be hacked or that maybe some of these fears of Trump taking over the midterms are a little overblown. I wanted to see, like, how worried should the public be about this kind of question of fraud? Is there any case that this is like, you know, Democrats playing politics on that question?

6:02JB Pritzker:Look, my belief is that our obligation is to make sure we don't have a democracy if people can't vote. And we're trying to protect that even in the face of the onslaught. And who could have imagined that he'd be talking about or even trying to deploy troops to do these kinds of things? I didn't imagine it before the 2020 elections and the aftermath of it in January 6th, for goodness sakes. So now, you know, I think everybody, and I want to pay attention, I want people to pay attention, especially to the election of secretaries of state in states where the secretary of state is in charge of the voting.

6:38JB Pritzker:So we've got to protect those elections and elect people to secretary of state positions who believe in democracy and who are going to protect people's votes.

6:46Astead Herndon:You know, I want to ask about the specific issue of immigration beyond kind of what Trump is doing. You know, Democrats have also been a part of funding and expanding ICE over the years. President Barack Obama gave Trump's border czar Tom Homan a top citizen honor for his work on immigration and deportations in 2015. As recently as 2024, I remember Democrats on the presidential campaign trail agreeing that illegal immigration was a problem. Cities even like Chicago have struggled with an increase of undocumented migrants in recent years. I remember my family who, you know, lives in the suburbs here talking about how they see more people on the street over the last like four or five years.

7:20Astead Herndon:It's straying things beyond public safety, but also kind of social services. You know, sometimes it feels as if Democrats want deportations to happen. They just want them to happen quietly and not necessarily like we're seeing from the Trump administration. Is it just a matter of tone here? Or like what is the tangible difference between what Democrats want to happen versus what Donald Trump is doing beyond the question of ICE and CBP?

7:42JB Pritzker:The tangible difference is ICE and CBP today under Donald Trump are stopping U.S. citizens who are black and brown and demanding to see citizenship papers. Now, I don't know about you. I don't get asked for citizenship papers. I don't have any on me. But they're doing it, and they're doing it to people who are not undocumented. They're doing it to people who are here legally, people who have lived here maybe generations, U.S. citizens. That's the difference. They're racially profiling. So should ICE be abolished? It is fundamentally different. what Donald Trump is doing with it. Yeah, what he's doing with it should absolutely be abolished.

8:16JB Pritzker:And it's got to be replaced. It's just got to be wiped away and replaced. Donald Trump has turned them into a secret police. And I do not believe that we want secret police on the streets of our cities and of our country.

8:28Astead Herndon:So when you say stop the funding, stop the occupations, stop the killing, what you're saying is that that amounts to a call to defund and replace ICE.

8:37JB Pritzker:That's what I'm saying. I think what they're doing in the Senate right now, holding up DHS funding precisely to get a lot of rules and regulations around what's happening because people are getting shot in the streets by ICE and CBP is the right thing to do.

8:51Astead Herndon:You know, one thing that the Trump White House says, and I've even heard you say, is that, you know, they want to focus on folks who have been convicted of violent crimes. Everyone seems to agree, from public to Democrats to Republicans, that, you know, folks who have, who are undocumented immigrants who have been convicted of violent crimes should be deported. That's what they said. Why isn't that happening? Why? If there's a universal agreement on that front, why isn't it happening?

9:12JB Pritzker:That's what I want to know. Why is it that Donald Trump and ICE and CBP are not doing what they said they were going to do, right? They said they were going after the worst of the worst. If you know someone has committed a violent crime, let's go get them. I mean, we've been doing that, by the way, for much longer than Donald Trump was ever president in the state of Illinois. If someone has committed a crime, we pursue them. We arrest them. We convict them. Or they go to trial. If they get convicted, they get put in prison. I mean, we've been doing that, and we always ask for help. I want to be clear.

9:45JB Pritzker:Always ask for help from federal law enforcement agencies, FBI, DEA, ATF. We want to get the guns and the drugs and the gangs off of our streets, and we usually have worked very closely with the federal government to get that done.

10:03JB Pritzker:It's true that some things change as we get older. But if you're a woman over 40 and you're dealing with insomnia, brain fog, moodiness, and weight gain, you don't have to accept it as just another part of aging. And with MidiHealth, you can get help and stop pushing through it alone. The experts at Midi understand that all these symptoms can be connected to the hormonal changes that happen around menopause. And Midi can help you feel more like yourself again. Many healthcare providers aren't trained to treat or even recognize menopause symptoms. MIDI clinicians are menopause experts. They're dedicated to providing safe, effective, FDA-approved solutions for dozens of hormonal symptoms, not just hot flashes.

10:45JB Pritzker:Most importantly, they're covered by insurance. 91 % of MIDI patients get relief from symptoms within just two months. You deserve to feel great. Book your virtual visit today at joinmidi.com. That's joinmidi.com.

11:05Astead Herndon:I want to also ask about move on from immigration and talk about taxes. You've spent 58 million of your own money trying to pass a graduated income tax in 2020 that voters rejected 55 to 45. I know you're in favor of a wealth tax nationally. This gets some pub because, you know, you yourself are someone who would fall under said wealth tax. Tell me like how you kind of tell me how you kind of came to supporting an idea of something that would cost you money.

11:31JB Pritzker:I'm a Democrat. I believe that it is our obligation to have a government that stands up for the middle class, the working class, the most vulnerable. You've got to pay for that somehow. And it shouldn't fall on the backs of the middle class and the working class. Mostly, it should fall on the backs of the people who can afford it. And so I really believe in a graduate income tax. We have constitutionally in the state of Illinois a flat tax. I know there are lots of people who like that fact, but mostly they're the wealthiest people who like that fact because they don't like the graduated income tax that exists at the federal level either.

12:05Astead Herndon:So is it like – is it about raising revenue? Is it ideological, like that you think there's like a kind of moral or kind of progressive purpose for – like that we need to kind of income redistribute? Like where – were you always someone who was supportive of a wealth tax? Like tell me about your kind of journey on that question.

12:23JB Pritzker:You call it a journey. Listen, I've been a Democrat my whole life. I grew up in a household where we were—

12:28Astead Herndon:There's a lot of Democrats, particularly wealthy ones, who don't believe in something like a wealth tax.

12:31JB Pritzker:I don't know what to say about that. I can tell you this, that you've got to pay for roads. You've got to pay for government. You've got to pay for the supports that the most vulnerable need somehow. And so the question is, who should that burden fall on, people who can't afford it or people who can? Fair.

12:49Astead Herndon:You've been traveling to New Hampshire. Also, you all are the state has pushed to move Illinois up in the Democratic primary. I recently read James Carville publicly backed you for president in 2028. I know you're immediately running for a third term for Illinois governor, but I would not be a journalist if I just directly asked you. Are you someone who we should be thinking about as a 2028 presidential candidate?

13:09JB Pritzker:I'm running for reelection, like you just said. Now, that is what I'm focused on. I'm obviously flattered that people have talked about me for national office. I, you know, look, I'm the governor of the fifth largest state in the country. And I'm proud of very proud of that fact. But I'm focused on the accomplishments that we need to make and that we've made in the state of Illinois and for the people of Illinois.

13:29Astead Herndon:Mm-hmm. Days after the 2024 election, you gave a speech where you essentially said Democrats need to fight harder. And at the DNC, your speech was also one that I think was one of the more direct ones. I wanted to know, like, why you think it's important to reflect that sense of urgency? Why is it for you more important to be kind of standing in direct opposition rather than what seems like some Democrats who are doing more reaching out to their side?

13:53JB Pritzker:Well, I talk to Republicans all the time. Remember, I've got a legislature with Republicans and Democrats in it. And as I often say, even Republicans have good ideas every once in a while. It's worth listening. There are things – in fact, I just proposed expanding a program that a Republican first proposed in the state of Illinois to make sure that we're funding our pensions properly.

14:15Astead Herndon:But those speeches, I mean DNC speech, the one after 2024, it sounded like Dems fight back. That's really what I'm asking for.

14:22JB Pritzker:Well, because Dems weren't fighting hard enough. I mean, the truth is that Donald Trump is a danger to the future of our country and our democracy. And so, you know, as a party, you can't have people who are like, well, if I just duck, you know, no one will notice me or no one will notice my state. Maybe Donald Trump won't hurt me in some fashion. I can tell you, you know, I helped to build a Holocaust museum. Authoritarians don't go away. They get more powerful if you don't stand up to them early. And indeed, I was very concerned. Right after Donald Trump got elected, people, well, maybe we can work with him.