The rage bait candidate

0:00Sean Rameswaram:Will Sommer, senior reporter at The Bulwark, who is James Fishback? Sure. So James Fishback is a candidate, a Republican candidate for governor in Florida. I'm running for Florida governor so I can make life more affordable for you and your family. He has very little chance of actually winning, but he's getting a lot of attention because he seems to have energized Gen Z Republicans in particular. We just interviewed James Fishback, the America first candidate running for governor of Florida who has been taking the Internet by storm. Despite or perhaps because of being really racist. We've been repeatedly calling and referring to Byron Donald as DEI Donald on social media.

0:35Sean Rameswaram:Referring to Congressman Byron Donald as a, quote, slave to his donors. You know, he has a really thin resume. He's, you know, someone who I think typically couldn't be elected for dog catcher. But he's kind of catching on. He's gaining in the polls. And while he still probably won't win, I think he's offering us a face of sort of one potential future for the Republican Party. The Rage Bait Candidate on Today Explained from Vox.

1:24Sean Rameswaram:new pair. Go check out your nearest Croc store. You deserve that in-person moment. The worst advice I have ever gotten is stay in your lane. I'm Robin Ersan, athlete, executive, founder, and staying in my lane would have kept me small. Don't protect other people's comfort at the cost of your growth. This week on Project Swagger, my strategies for embracing your multi-hyphenate existence. Tune in now at Project Swagger wherever you get your podcasts.

1:58Sean Rameswaram:This is Today Explained. When we sat down with Will Sommer, we asked him where this Florida man, James Fishback, came from. Just about nowhere. I mean, he was in finance. He was apparently, according to court documents, a pretty low-level employee at a hedge fund. And then he sort of afterwards styled himself as sort of this like real hedge fund expert. They claim he made up his title. When did you first consider yourself to be the head of Macro? This isn't some beef about head of macro. I know everybody wants to talk about head of macro this. And that kind of became sort of a meme in the finance community because it was just so ridiculous.

2:33Sean Rameswaram:But through that, he managed to get on Fox Business a lot and sort of leverage that into appearing like he's this sort of expert financier type guy. So I'm going to bring in Azoria CEO James Fishback. And Azoria's CEO is James Fishback. And he joins me now, James. And to further complicate the shape-shifting identity of this white supremacist candidate, he's not super white? Right. I mean, this is kind of the, you know, one of the fascinating things about him. I mean, he's extremely racist to Byron Donalds, the congressman who's been endorsed by Trump, who's sort of the frontrunner in the Florida governor's race.

3:08Sean Rameswaram:Congressman Donald's license and registration, please. Easy there. Easy there, Congressman Donald. Hands where I can see them. Enough. Get out of the car. Hands behind your back. You are under arrest for betraying America to Israel. At the same time, his mother is Colombian, and so he's half Colombian. But, you know, this is also kind of something we're seeing more of, I think, is this kind of racial extremism in Florida among Hispanic people. There was recently a leak of young Republicans who are Hispanic in Miami being extremely racist. And he's really kind of become the face of the or one of the faces of the white nationalist, the so-called Groeper movement that surrounds the podcaster Nick Fuentes.

3:53Sean Rameswaram:And yeah, remind people who don't pay attention to Nick Fuentes and the Groypers what they're all about. Sure. So Nick Fuentes is a young man in his late 20s who marched in Charlottesville, real kind of avowed racist. That's part of what's wrong with black people in America is that chip on their shoulder. No humility. And anti-Semite. Jews be Jewing. Who has styled himself, particularly after the murder of Charlie Kirk, that created sort of a vacuum. And Nick Fuentes has stepped into it as sort of the racist face of young Republicanism. And what does, like, you know, the Venn diagram overlap look like between Nick Fuentes and the racist Groypers and this long shot candidate for Florida governor, James Fishback?

4:42Sean Rameswaram:I would say that Venn diagram is just about a circle. James Fishback has really welcomed the Groypers' support. I probably shouldn't say this, but I think Nick's following is actually really impressive. There's a lot of young men who are patriotic, who are well-informed. Nick Fuentes has been very complimentary towards him. We have our Groyper Intelligence Agency hat as seen on James Fishback's head, and he's excellent. Fishback will post for pictures with people in Nick Fuentes' merchandise, with guys wearing Nick Fuentes' sweaters. He's very close with this right-wing media figure who said she's going to have some more kids and make some more young groipers.

5:18Sean Rameswaram:So, you know, they're very closely aligned. And I think Fishback is interesting because he's probably the closest we've come to a sort of Nick Fuentes, groiper-type political candidate. And his relative success, I think, suggests that that kind of candidate has some runway among Gen Z Republicans. Nick Fuentes is interesting to talk about this moment because he's a white supremacist, like borderline Nazi, maybe a Nazi, full on Nazi. It's unclear. But he also says like he wants to vote for Democrats in the next election. My vote for the Democrats is a middle finger to the GOP. I don't care. How does that affect someone like Fishback?

6:01Sean Rameswaram:Where does he sit in the ideological spectrum left and right? I mean, I think Fishback represents this kind of growing discontent among young Republicans with the Trump administration, particularly over support for Israel, the war with Iran. But more broadly, this sense of, you know, that Trump isn't doing anything about affordability to help young people own homes, start families. It's sort of this kind of populist, I mean, to be frank, kind of quasi-fascist, this kind of government stepping in to control families, to control businesses. You know, one of his proposals is that in a marriage, if someone cheats, they should lose all of their all of the marital assets.

6:36Sean Rameswaram:If you enter the covenant of marriage and then you cheat, you're giving up everything. You don't have any rights. Which, you know, to me, I think would just sort of incentivize like spousal murder or something, you know, if you're going to be a pauper if you get divorced. But he has these ideas that people go, oh, yeah, that's true. Even though, I mean, it's crazy. Just to underline one more, I mean, he talks about, you know, housing affordability in Florida. But a lot of his ideas are either onerous taxes on anyone who moves to Florida or somehow banning people from moving to Florida. I will pass the Mamdani tax,$50 ,000 property transaction tax for any out-of-state individual who wants to buy real estate, single-family real estate here in Florida.

7:18Sean Rameswaram:He's really kind of heavy-handed government vision that he's proposing. And I saw the New York Times opinion writer Michelle Goldberg. She went and hung out at Fishback events in Florida and she met a registered Democrat, Mom Donnie fan, who said she was thinking of changing her registration to vote for Fishback in the primary. Who is he speaking to? How big is his tent? Because if you look at images from his events, it looks like a lot of young white men, but maybe not exclusively. Yeah, I mean, I think Fishback is benefiting from a couple things. I mean, one is on one hand, I think you do have people who are legitimately sort of alienated from normal politics.

7:56Sean Rameswaram:And because he's this unusual kind of candidate, they're latching on to him. On the other hand, I think he's also benefiting from this kind of like poisoned information ecosystem. I mean, someone else in the Michelle Goldberg piece says they got into Fishback because they saw Kanye West post a graphic about Jews controlling the media. And so they entered him through that vector. So I think there's this just kind of this crazy online ecosystem that really also favors seeking attention. And Fishback certainly does that. He has these kind of mobs that go to waffle houses for events. He'll say these kind of eye-catching ideas like public executions for anyone who associated with Jeffrey Epstein or taxing OnlyFans creators at 50 percent of their income.

8:35Sean Rameswaram:That is how you disincentivize and deter this degenerate behavior. And we're going to use the money to increase public school teacher pay. And this then creates kind of a feud with some OnlyFans stars. Never in my whole life did I think that I would wake up and see a Florida politician trying to start beef with me for clout. And so he's been able to get attention in a lot of different ways, despite really running sort of a shoestring campaign. And you said earlier he doesn't really have a shot, but he's getting enough attention to be worth talking about because he appears to have some influence here.

9:08Sean Rameswaram:What does he parlay that into if not running Florida? Well, look, I mean, these days, in many ways, being a right wing media figure is better than being a politician, you know, maybe not governor. But, you know, we've seen someone like Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino quit to go back to podcasting. And it is good to see you guys. It's been a crazy year. I really, really miss you. I mean, if you want influence, I think in a lot of ways, it's better to be someone like Candace Owens or Megyn Kelly with a huge YouTube platform than just a sort of random congressman or something. So I think in some ways, James Fishback is sort of trying to play on that.

9:43Sean Rameswaram:And he's young. You know, he could run for office in the future. So I think that there is this sense that he, despite being, I mean, frankly, like just a big time Charlotte and in many ways, he's sort of harnessing this discontent among young people. And do the young people think he's genuine? Because just hearing you talk about his experience or lack thereof, it seems like he's just someone who's sort of taken advantage of whatever zeitgeist, you know, is in front of him. To, I don't know, just increase his own popularity, his own presence. Yeah, I mean, I think sort of the savvier Fishback fans, I mean, some people you'll meet, they're just, you know, weeping like they're meeting a huge celebrity.

10:32Sean Rameswaram:They just love Fishback. On the other hand, I think a lot of these kind of Groyper type figures are very cynical about politics in general. I mean, they would love to see a sort of fascist America. But they see Fishback as a useful vehicle. I mean, he's a guy who has like a certain amount of charisma that appeals to some people. And they see him as someone who's, you know, putting out these, you know, able to capture some energy and also show this discontent within the Republican Party. Not that, you know, we aren't going to be happy just to vote for whoever Donald Trump endorses in this primary.

11:08Sean Rameswaram:You can read Will Sommer at TheBulwark.com. It's a sub stack. Enemy of the show Tucker Carlson has said that pretty soon all winning Republicans will be talking like James Fishback. We're going to ask someone who spends a lot of time thinking about the right if that should have us shaking in our shorts when Today Explained returns.

11:37Sean Rameswaram:Support for Today Explained comes from Shopify. Starting a new business has never been easy, says Shopify, but without the right tools, it can feel almost impossible. Perhaps Shopify can set you up for success. Shopify is a commerce platform used by millions of businesses around the world. They say they can help you tackle important tasks, inventory, payments, analytics, so much more. No need to save multiple websites or try to figure out what platform is hosting the tool that you need. Everything is all in one place, making your life easier and your business operations smoother. Let Shopify be your commerce expert with world-class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond.

12:15Sean Rameswaram:You can get started with your own design studio with hundreds of ready-to-use templates. Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store that matches your brand's style. It's time to turn those what-ifs into with Shopify today. You can sign up for your$1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com. Go to shopify.com. What's that? That's shopify.com. slash explained.

12:41Sean Rameswaram:Support for today explained comes from SelectQuote. There is so much uncertainty in the world. Don't forget about life insurance. Buying life insurance can be intimidating and confusing with questions like how much does it cost? How much coverage am I getting? SelectQuote says they can make this whole thing easier and cheaper. SelectQuote says that for more than 40 years, they've been one of the most trusted brokers in insurance. They say they help more than 2 million Americans secure over$700 billion in coverage. And they say their mission is simple. They want to help you find the right term life insurance policy for your unique needs.

13:14Sean Rameswaram:And they say they partner with providers offering same-day coverage up to$2 million without needing to visit your doctor. SelectQuote says life insurance is never cheaper than it is today. You can get the right term life insurance for you for less and save more than 50 % at selectquote.com slash explained. You can save more than 50 % on term life insurance at selectquote.com slash explained today to get started. That's selectquote.com slash explained.

13:41Sean Rameswaram:Support for Today Explained comes from Vanguard. We've stepped into a new year, says Vanguard, and Vanguard says it's a perfect time for all the advisors listening to think about how to set your clients up for success. One way to do that is to level up your fixed income strategy. But bonds can be tricky. The market is huge. Rates shift and risks hide in plain sight. That's why having a partner with scale and expertise matters. and Vanguard says they bring both. According to Vanguard, Vanguard bonds are institutional quality. Institutional quality is not a tagline, it's commitment to your clients.

14:09Sean Rameswaram:It means top grade products across the board with a lineup, including over 80 bond funds that Vanguard says are actively managed by a 200 person global squad of sector specialists, analysts and traders. Vanguard says Vanguard takes a steady approach to investing rather than going all in on risky bets. They focus on reliability and consistency. It's not always flashy, but it sets the standard for what dependable investing should look like. So year out, you can go see the record for yourself at Vanguard.com slash audio. That's Vanguard.com slash audio. All investing is subject to risk. Vanguard Marketing Corporation Distributor.

14:49Sean Rameswaram:Barther. Barther. Keep going. Stephanie Slade covers conservatives for Reason Magazine. We invited her on today to explain to figure out how we should be thinking about a figure like James Fishback. Stephanie seemed to think that if you have a good enough grasp of the history here, you wouldn't be so spooked by him. So we asked her to hit us with some history. We started with what the founders of modern conservatism would make of James Fishback. It's always hard to try to bring these figures into our time and place. But I think that if you are talking about people, the leading lights of mid century, mid-20th century conservatism, like William F.

15:30Buckley Jr., the founder of National Review. See, the trouble with you is that you get very resentful whenever anybody reminds you of what you say. If I said what you said, I'd feel the same way. Russell Kirk, you know, the conservative writer. What the public hopes for, however dimly, is restoration. If conservatives can deal with these great problems, ably in honesty, posterity will bless them. People like this, they believed very deeply in the importance of cultivating a responsible conservatism. Why are the races unreconciled? Why does poverty persevere? Why are our governors indifferent to us?

16:03Why are the young disenchanted? Why do the birds sing so unhappily? It is easy to be carried away, and yet, always, there is a strain of seriousness. Something in the system that warns us, warns us that America had better strike out on a different course rather than face another four years of asphyxiation by liberal premises. They thought that conservatism was a disposition It was a quality of being. It had a lot to do with how we preserve a civilization. And so there's many things about figures on the right today, on the fringes of the right today, like James Fishback, who I think are certainly not, I would say, in keeping with that tradition.

16:43Sean Rameswaram:Yeah, civility does not seem to be huge on James Fishback's platform agenda. When we talk about modern conservatism, what are we talking about? When did it start? I would define the conservative movement in America as we know it as being a post-World War II phenomenon. In the years after World War II ended, this sort of conservative movement in America came into being in a self-conscious way. Radical conservatives in this country have an interesting time of it. For when they are not being suppressed or mutilated by the liberals, they are being ignored or humiliated by the great many of those of the well-fed right, whose ignorance and amorality have never been exaggerated for the same reason that one cannot exaggerate infinity.

17:31National Review, November 1955. And the scholars and writers, and again, people associated with National Review magazine being sort of the center of this, all recognized that they were sort of building a movement from scratch. Ideas have to go into exchange to become or remain operative. And the medium of such exchange is the printed word. A vigorous and incorruptible journal of conservative opinion is, dare we say it, as necessary to better living as chemistry. They didn't think the ideas were new. They thought, if anything, they thought that they were just trying to preserve the principles and institutions of the American founding.

18:12So that these were things that, you know, had been around for centuries. But they believed that the movement itself was sort of being constructed from the ground up. And so that was happening again in the late 1940s through the founding of National Review in 1955, through the founding of Young Americans for Freedom in 1960 and the Goldwater campaign. I say it is time to put conscience back in government and by good example, put it back in all walks of American life. In your heart, you know he's right. Vote for Barry Goldwater. And up into the 70s, 80s, and 90s and the launching and founding of all kinds of the institutions that we think of as being the institutions of mainstream establishment conservatism today, like the Heritage Foundation or the Philadelphia Society, the ACU, which is the organization that puts on CPAC, the big conservative conference every year.

19:02All these groups sort of came into being during this period between this late 40s into the 90s, let's say.

19:09Sean Rameswaram:and i think just bringing this back to the to the moment we're in right now where you see a fringe figure or at least for the moment a fringe figure like james fishback uh it feels new and kind of scary oh the guy seems like a nazi sympathizer but but it's important to note here that throughout this uh conservative era that you're telling us about there were also fringe figures? Always. Oh, for sure. It's not like racism, antisemitism, misogyny are things that were invented by young men in the 21st century. There were figures like George Wallace, who was actually a New Deal Democrat. He was not a Republican, but he was a figure who was sort of trying to drag our American politics in that direction during the 60s and 70s.

19:55Sean Rameswaram:And that we're going to stand up for the people of Alabama and follow a way of life, and we're not going to let the NAACP and the moderates and all that crap take over and mix the school system in this state. He was basically an Alabama segregationist. You know, he wanted to maintain segregation. The Republican Party was forced to view him as a competitor for their base voters. In the 90s, we had the rise of the paleo conservatives and people like Pat Buchanan. There is a religious war going on in this country. It is a cultural war as critical to the kind of nation we shall be as the Cold War itself.

20:31For this war is for the soul of America. Who, the commitments were not all necessarily what we would call far right. Both Buchanan and certainly Wallace were further to the left on economics than the mainstream conservatives. But very, very anti-immigration, dabbling or flirting with anti-Semitism, that sort of thing. So, I mean, again, it's hard to place them sometimes on a left-right spectrum, but a lot of the ideas that we are seeing that have sort of re-emerged in recent years in conjunction with the rise of the MAGA, you know, Trumpism phenomenon have been calling back to things like those paleo-conservatives of the 1990s.

21:13now what is a little different now um and it's kind of hard to even capture this in words but right there's a trollish quality to a lot of these far right figures um now they they've they're essentially online influencers before they are anything else and that's how they're making their money is by having a following on their you know rumble or whatever the left wing

21:36Sean Rameswaram:and the right wing are both attached to the same corrupt uniparty bird. What I'm asking voters to do is to give me a 12-gauge shotgun to shoot that freaking bird out of the sky and take our country back. Whether or not to take them seriously is this really hard question. Do they mean what they say? I get this question all the time. If Nick Fuentes or somebody goes out there and says the only purpose of a woman is to, I don't know what language is acceptable on this podcast, but, um, go for it. We'll fix it in post. Fonte famously, not that long ago said that women only have three purposes. It can be, um, mothers, whores, or nuns.

22:16And, um, you know, when he says something like that, does he mean it? Or is he just trying to get a rise out of people to get more attention, to get more clicks, to make more money? It's hard to say. And so a lot of, a lot of what's going on here is there's this new sort of post ironic, um, trend intentionally transgressive trollishness that's going on. This is definitely all the rage in terms of the people who are not running for office, the Tucker Carlson's, the Nick Fuente's. But it's bleeding into some of these far-right candidates, and Fishback is a perfect example of this, where he's clearly come up in that culture, and so it's hard to know.

22:51Whereas Buchanan was very earnest. I mean, he believed what he was saying. He may say things that were offensive, but he said it because he believed it, and he was trying to convince you of it. Whereas these guys, you don't really know what they believe, and you don't know whether they're actually trying to convince you of something or if they're just trying to make you mad because they like they think it's funny and they like the attention.

23:08Sean Rameswaram:It sounds like you're saying figures like Pat Buchanan, who maybe represented a farther right segment of the party, of the movement. You know, they did make a difference. Are they comparable to like a James Fishback who might be making a difference right now or even someone like a like a David Duke who was like straight up KKK, but certainly had some following in far-right American politics? Yeah, well, it's much like Fishback is not currently leading in the polls. Somebody like a Buchanan was never somebody who was really threatening to win the Republican nomination. He ran against George H.W.

23:46Bush, for example, in 1992. He was challenging him from the right on some issues, from the left on some issues. And he did well. I mean, he was challenging a sitting Republican president. He did pretty well. It was surprising to a lot of people. He had a groundspell of support, but it was always a minority. And again, fortunately, I think the evidence right now suggests that it is a minority of support that are kind of behind these fringe figures like Fishback today. But you just never know whether what starts as a groundswell will become the kind of overpowering tidal wave of support that we saw, for example, in 2016 with Donald Trump that nobody in respectable politics saw that coming.