This Senator has an Eric Swalwell problem

0:00Astead Herndon:I'm in Washington, D.C. this week to interview Arizona Senator Ruben Gallego. He's a Democrat from Arizona, but he's been thinking about running for higher office, and he's been pitching himself as someone who has a new message for Latino voters that can bring them back to the Democratic Party. But Gallego's run into some hot water recently because of his connection to Congressman Eric Swalwell. Eric Swalwell lied to all of us. My friendship with him, our family's friendship together with him, clouded my judgment. And I was wrong. I deeply, deeply regret that. This week on America Actually, we asked Gallego about predatory behavior in Washington, his plans for immigration reform, and more.

0:40Astead Herndon:Let's dig in.

1:21Astead Herndon:Thank you for having me. I appreciate your time. I know that there's been some news this week. I want to get to it later. But I want to start with the premise of why we asked you to come on the show. We've been thinking a lot about topics that you've been talking about, things like immigration, affordability, even the Democrats' outreach to Latino voters. I kind of wanted to start there. You know, out of the groups that we've seen over the last year, Latinos maybe have the biggest polling shift in terms of backlash against Donald Trump. You represent the swing state with the highest percentage of Latino voters.

1:51Astead Herndon:I wanted to know what you think is driving this backlash to the administration, at least that we see in the numbers. So two things. Number one, the affordability crisis. And number two, immigration, immigration enforcement. The affordability crisis, Latinos are probably just also as affected by the economy as black men. And so when things start going south, that community first feels it first. They're the ones that will get fired first. They're the ones that start losing contracts first. And they don't have much savings to actually kind of like get through these bumps, right? So if you see when the economy started going south, here, Latinos had already started moving against the president because they were feeling it first.

2:33Number two, immigration enforcement. Now, the president had a message in 2024 that if you listened, it said, I want to do mass deportations. And of course, everyone in D.C. mind world says, well, how do these Latinos not see that? Well, in their mind, what they're talking about is those people that are coming across the border right now in these massive waves claiming asylum. They weren't thinking that, oh, you're going to go after the person in my neighborhood that's been here for 20 years. That's a good person. That works. And so they rationalized it that that's not going to happen. And then to add the fact that they were racially profiling U.S.

3:11citizens has made them turn and turn very, very fast.

3:14Astead Herndon:Yeah, I mean, I think you're isolating a couple important points. I've heard you make this kind of case before, particularly that people were more affected to their communities around them than they may have expected from Trump. But, you know, if I think back to how explicit he's been about his targeting of immigrant communities, particularly Black and Latino immigrants, I mean, if I think back to the mass deportation now signs at the RNC, how could you not see this coming? It did seem like the explicit promise. because I think they didn't want to see it coming. They viewed the asylum seeker crossing the border in those waves as not being part of their community, right?

3:49And I think people kind of forget that, you know, especially Latino communities, long-term Latino communities, did not see the waves of people coming in as being part of their culture, Latino culture.

4:01Astead Herndon:Right, it's not like an inherent collective, right? So it's not some like shared sense of identity. I think sometimes political discussion groups, folks. Exactly, yeah. And a lot of us knew this and we were trying to tell people this because there was, you know, just to be clear, there was fear from, you know, Democratic consultants and people around the president that if you do that, you're going to, quote, lose the Latino vote. When we knew, many of us that are very well connected to the Latino community, not just like Latino politicians, that Latinos did not see or identify with that mass migration as being part of their collective idea of who they are.

4:36Astead Herndon:Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I mean, that brings us to, I guess, an important point because, you know, what you're talking about is pressure that was on President Biden to not necessarily embrace a stronger border enforcement message that maybe some folks think he should have. But I guess I want it feels related to the question of what is Democrats own affirmative position on immigration. You know, part of the premise of this show is kind of to try to take Donald Trump out the center. And if we do that and think about that specific to immigration, I wanted to ask you, like, what do Democrats stand for when it comes to immigration reform besides just Donald Trump is bad?

5:12Number one, we want border enforcement. And, you know, when I ran for office, I led one of the first commercial I had was in Spanish about border enforcement. A lot of people understand that some people have come to this country illegally. And I think the majority of Americans will prefer, the super majority would prefer that you come here legally. But for some reason, you overstayed your visa, you crossed because you had – whatever it is, right? Get yourself right with the government. Get a background check. Pay a fine. Get in the back of the line in case there's people that have been doing this right first.

5:41And then go from there. Number two, we want you to go after bad people. Good people in, bad people out, right? And so people that have criminal records, people that have – are danger to society, not just to the immigrant community but to everybody else. And then lastly, a flexible and responsive immigration system, right? Because there is going to be times where we are going to need more immigrants to come and do work, do jobs. And sometimes when we don't need immigrants, I think it's okay as a country to say, you know what? At this point right now, we don't need as many immigrants. We're going to lower the amount of immigrants and visas that we're giving out, right?

6:21That's why Americans are extremely rational on this. It's the politicians, I think, that have really gone one way or the other. It's either absolutely nothing or absolutely everything. And I think that's just not a winning message, nor is that where I am and nor is where most Americans are, especially, by the way, where most Latinos are.

6:39Astead Herndon:Half of all Americans wanted to abolish ICE, according to a recent poll I just saw. You call that position ridiculous. I wanted to know why. Because if you actually ask somebody what that means, it's different for everybody else. If you ask somebody, do you think we still need to have a deportation force in this country? Almost 80 % of Americans would say, yes, we need a deportation force because you're going to have to deport bad people, right? The question that we have to ask is like, what is a proper force? What are the rights they have? How big should they be, right? And so, you know, as I say, like I have to win a red state.

7:13There's some people that can just run and say whatever they want and be fine, right? But I have a state where there's 300 ,000 more registered Republicans than Democrats. We've been severely affected by immigration, right? It is my job to have to explain the nuance in order for me both to win and to get all the Democrats to win in a red state. So do I want to totally tear apart ICE and maybe even move different portions, different departments, slim it down because it's so big, it's so bloated, they're going to go after everybody? Restrict them to make sure they are only going after criminals and that they're not doing mass deportations?

7:47Absolutely. If you tell me, does that mean that ICE will not exist? Sure, ICE may not exist, but there's always going to be a deportation force, right? And I think it's really incumbent upon people that are running for office to be very clear about that. Because if not, you're really selling a bill of goods to the left because they're going to want to see something. And also, you're setting yourself up for a major hit, major hit from the right. And in this time and in this world where elections have consequences, real consequences, your duty is to win an election.

8:20Astead Herndon:I wanted to ask two questions that we got from reporters. We talked to in advance of this interview. We talked to Caitlin Dickerson, immigration reporter at The Atlantic. And she pointed out how some Senate Democrats, including yourself, supported the Lake and Riley Act in 2025, which gave ICE new powers to keep people in detention. And you've seen so many prominent Democrats go back and forth between assailing even these basic aspects of immigration enforcement when they're done by Trump. And then at other times, in response to what they perceive to be public opinion turning against immigrants, go and vote for very restrictive legislation that makes all these problems they've been complaining about worse.

8:58Astead Herndon:I guess that thinking about your kind of message of reforming ICE now, did some Democrats like yourself supporting Lake and Riley help empower the same out-of-control ICE we see right now? No, I think the$175 billion, the fact that you have Stephen Miller that's lenient versus the DHS secretaries. You have Judge Kavanaugh saying racial profiling is allowed. And then just in a general attitude from this administration, they have zero accountability standards, whether it's investigations, holding people actually accountable, jailings from these ICE agents, showing masks, showing IDs, things of that nature.

9:35That is the actual full scope of what they're doing right now.

9:38Astead Herndon:We also talked with Arizona reporter locally ahead of today. And one of the things that came up in that conversation, she was talking about community pushback against data centers, that the construction of data centers has caused some organizing efforts and caused some resentment against some more establishment politicians who've supported them. So I cover local government a lot. I think it has made people think about how they want government to talk to them and share information with them. That was a big issue here, how the data center was brought forward that people didn't know about it or didn't share about it publicly.

10:09And I didn't see another issue galvanize people at quite the same level in their relationship with local government.

10:16Astead Herndon:You've called data centers a, quote, necessary evil. I guess my question is, why are they necessary? area? Well, two things. A necessary evil doesn't necessarily mean that you give them a blank check. But the future of this economy, no matter where you are, is going to be driven by AI. The question is, how do we tame it and how do we regulate it? If I can find a way to do it at the federal level, we will do it. Number two, there are some areas they shouldn't go because just because they have cheap electricity does not mean that we have cheap water, cheap air, or cheap neighborhoods, right? And so we need to give...

10:46Astead Herndon:Particularly in a state with water shortages, things like that. So we need to give more control to the states and to the localities to regulate them. There are places where they should go. It does not necessarily mean it has to be in Arizona. It does not mean it has to be in the cheapest land that these data centers can find. So if I hear you correctly, it's that the question of AI's centrality in our work economy is, you're saying that's without question. It's important. And so it's only a choice between whether we proactively tax these data centers or give them a place in our shared economy or focus them on workers rather than what's happening now, which is kind of an untamed Wild West.

11:20Astead Herndon:I mean, I guess there just feels like such a big gap between the certainty that political groups, you know, tech groups, like I would say kind of elite society has about the centrality of AI and people, right? Like we know that that backlash is driven by a sentiment that folks don't necessarily agree that AI should kind of hold a central place in their lives going forward. Because so far hasn't really – they haven't seen the benefit of it. So I mean I could totally understand that. Right. What they see is their kids being glued to their phones and then AI lying to them, companies mining their data and selling them.

11:55And so this is something I think both policymakers, but also it's upon the AI industry that they need to show what the benefits are. Because right now, there is no yet massive scale benefit to society when it comes to AI.

12:11Astead Herndon:We heard Bernie Sanders say to us a couple weeks back that that was a reason for a moratorium on data centers. Why don't you support a moratorium? Well, number one, because I think that we'd fall severely behind. And then we start losing the future wealth, jobs, and growth that comes from AI. Number two, I think states need to lead also. There's, you know, when it comes to zoning, things of that nature, if we could do it with the federal law, we absolutely should. But, like, you know, it is incumbent upon a lot of states to actually understand what's going on. People do have legitimate arguments.

12:42They have legitimate rage. There's areas of Phoenix where they're, you know, it's the middle of an urban area. They're going to put a data center, all because it's cheap lands. And they think because it's a black and brown area that they're going to have less pushback.

12:54Astead Herndon:They're just going to do it. After the break, we speak to Senator Gallego about the recent allegations concerning Congressman Eric Swalwell and how to eliminate predatory behavior in Washington. And just a quick note, we spoke to Gallego prior to Republican Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna's formal complaint against him, alleging misconduct. A spokesman for Gallego said, quote, these are right-wing conspiracies. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile, with a message for everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please, for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just$15 a month.

13:32Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Upfront payment of$45 for three-month plan, equivalent to$15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. From Iran to Venezuela to China, what is driving President Trump's foreign policy? Both Russia and China are big losers if there's a transition in the nature of the Iranian government, which, again, is why I think we have to see this campaign through.

14:07I'm Jake Sullivan. And I'm John Feiner. And we're the hosts of The Long Game, a weekly national security podcast. This week, Trump's former national security advisor, H.R. McMaster, and deputy national security advisor, Matt Pottinger, join us. The episode's out now. Search for and follow The Long Game wherever you get your podcasts. Well, we haven't practiced this, but if I asked you right now in this moment, let's say, what is it? You know, spring 2026. Why is it important to support journalism right now? Well, Sean, the world is a little overwhelming at this moment. There is a lot going on.

14:47It can be a little scary. It's also kind of beautiful and it's worth explaining. I would argue, in addition to that, there's a lot of trash information out there. Like people even want to rely on AI, but AI isn't being fact-checked. It's just pulling from a bunch of places. And sometimes you've seen it giving you the wrong information. We fact-check our show. You hear at the end of the show every day who fact-checks the show. We put a lot of effort into making sure that we are bringing you the most accurate information possible. And you can support that effort. That's right. If you believe in the journalism that we do, as much as we do, you can become a Vox member.

15:25Vox.com slash members, 30 percent off. Can you believe it? Let's go. Your first year. Sign up now. Thank you.

15:33Astead Herndon:I don't want to go too much longer without asking about the recent flood of sexual assault allegations against Congressman Eric Swalwell, who had called you his best friend. You chaired his 2020 presidential campaign. You were financially involved in his AI startup. Did you have any knowledge of these allegations of misconduct? or had you heard rumors of predatory behavior on the Hill? I wanted to ask you directly. No clue, no knowledge of any of the allegations or predatory behavior. That was definitely not what any of us, and look, we've all been having conversations since we're all actually going back.

16:06Who do you mean by we? Friends, members of Congress, other supporters. We're all talking to each other to see what did we do wrong? What did we not see?

16:14Astead Herndon:I want to just follow up though, because it seems as if the scale of the allegations makes that, I guess, causes a gut check on that, because it seems as if this was a known thing among some on the Hill. This seems as if certainly there was a community of women who were organizing around this. You hadn't heard anything about any of that? Not about the allegations we're talking about, the sexual assault, the predatory behavior. You know, there is a culture in D.C. that is certainly existing where not just him, but many other politicians, we heard of someone being, you know, flirty. But never inappropriate, never predatory, never towards staff and things of that nature.

16:54But look, this is the kind of thing that makes all of us relook at what we have been accepting versus not accepting.

17:00Astead Herndon:Part of the reason some of this has come back on you, though, is that you went out of your way to defend Swalwell just this month, writing recently on X that Eric is a fighter. Considering now what you know, or considering that you're saying you heard him maybe having rumors of being flirty, why proactively defend him? Well, for two reasons, because we had heard this about him, about other politicians for a long time, and nothing had ever surfaced, right? Number two, he exactly knew what to say to me because I had just gotten off a very hard 2024 campaign where I had some of the worst things said about me on commercials to tens of millions of dollars that my kids have to see.

17:38And they and some of his staff pushed that button on me. And it was a mistake. I mean, without a doubt, it was a mistake. Like, let's be clear. And knowing now everything I know of, would never have done it. But knowing now everything I know, especially of the sexual, sexual perpetuity, we would not have had the relationship that we had.

17:55Astead Herndon:There has been some that have said that this is also a question of your judgment. I wanted you to respond to that. I mean, you've been kind of openly embracing the question of a 2028 race. What do you say to someone who looks at this situation and causes that to question you? To me 100%, I'm more human first than a politician. and my judgment was off because of many reasons, but number one, because I knew this man as a family man first. We weren't just work colleagues. Our families ate dinner together. Our kids were in camps together, and I have to learn from this, and I will learn from this, but for me, it's not a 2028 question.

18:35It's about what it means to be a better first boss in my office and also a better senator to my constituents.