5 Rules NOT To Break In A Marathon & Sub 2.45 Training Tips | Nick Bester

0:00Lekker brew. Is that okay? Perfect. Yeah, it's not bad. You can tell you've got some South African heritage. Lekker brew. Lekker brew. Lekker brew. And let's have a braai. Let's have a braai. Nick Bester, welcome to Untapped. Thank you, Spencer. Pleasure to be here. I always do that with my hands. I always go, welcome to Untapped with the hands. I don't know why that is. This is my hand gesture. The young people call it a fit nowadays. So it's a choice between split shorts or short tights. I think that's like one of the deciding factors. I think I'm actually going to race in short sights, but I don't want to embarrass you on the podcast.

0:32But this is actually the boom shakalaka kit that I'm running in later because after this podcast, I'm going to Battersea Park to race a 5K. It's a pretty stacked event. Friday night under the last 5K. So hopefully you give me some words of wisdom and I can get back under sub 15. You need me to give you words of wisdom. Last time I raced a 10K in Battersea Park, it was one of the most embarrassing evenings of my life, actually. So I don't think you need to be taking any advice from me. double best you just made me nervous i thought about that that race day vibe so and you're obviously like the first so you know the roots pretty much it's like the half loop of that of course same as the parkrun no i'll be i'll tell you what i'll run it uh i'll run it clockwise because you guys will be going anti-clockwise and i'll see you twice yes amazing okay 15 minutes you're looking to break tonight that's serious running yeah so i broke 15 for the first time five years ago and i've done it every year since and i'm now 36 and i don't want to stop doing it So I've still got time a few more months in winter.

1:28I run faster in winter than summer, but I would love to just take it off tonight. So what is your strategy for your particular 5K? We have guests, we always end up talking about 5K PB, 5K pacing, but for you, somebody that runs so well, what is your strategy? So do you know what? It's a question I get asked a lot as well. I do a lot of YouTube videos with race vlogs and runners mindsets and stuff like that. And my mindset going into this is probably the same mindset that I use all the time that's worked really well for me. So first K, I think like active warmup. So just control that adrenaline.

1:59You've got so much adrenaline, so easy to go off. If you go off two or three seconds too quick, you're going to burn your matches, right? Then second and third K is like grind, grind, grind. Like that's when, you know, the adrenaline's worn off. It's not feeling as comfortable. You're not quite halfway yet, but you need to be working. It's like, honestly, like it just makes me, like I'm so familiar with what you're saying. But it just, it takes you right there and it's just kind of like, it's horrible. it's actually grim. No, it is. It's, oh, one of the, you know what, a racing of 5K is one of the most brutal things in the world, I promise you.

2:31But yeah, there's something about it that keeps us coming back for more. So yeah, I think once you, you get to that sort of two and a bit K mark, the adrenaline's worn off, you know, you're not even halfway, but you're already hurting. You've got to really try and get your mind right there. Then you get to sort of the three kilometer mark. Now you're over halfway, which is like, you know, it gives you a little bit of a boost, but that's when it's the hardest part of the 5K, K3 to 4 for like 95 % of people is the slowest kilometer of the 5K because it's like you are really in the pain cave and you can't smell the finish.

3:00So that's where you've got to focus on. And I actually try and think of K3 to 4 from the start because like I don't want to stuff that up. Then once you're over K4, it's like, boom. The last K, I always say never counts. And you can always find something in that last kilometer and you've got that adrenaline when you can smell that finish line with 400 meters to go, you can pick up and find something. So that's the way I break it down. and my plan for tonight is to literally go three minutes a K, three minutes a K, three minutes a K and then 2.59 and 2.58 or something. So hopefully just up under.

3:29That's some sick behavior. Honestly, you should be locked up for that. I hope I can do it though. But yeah, it's, you know what, there's something, like I've done that loop at Battersea so many times, but yeah, there's something about it that just keeps us bringing us back for more. You've been on a real running journey. your first 5k was 25 minutes now you're down at 14 30 something yeah that's right yeah yeah yeah which is insane uh your first marathon 317 and now you're down at 219 yeah that's it that's what's what's the secret so hard work trumps talent basically so yeah i think you know what nothing greats me more when someone says on social media like you you're talented you're lucky you can run like this like no no no no no you know you you you running is is cool because it keeps you honest and whatever you put in, you get out, right?

4:18To a certain point. Sometimes races don't go according to plan. But yeah, in my early running days, so 25, 14, so just over five minutes a K for a 5K, it wasn't in race conditions, but it was like with no training ever. When I started running at 23, that's what I did. I ran in, you know, tennis shorts, I chafed like crazy. I'll never forget it. And then I managed to sort of bring that time over the course of about, I've been running for 13 years. So 10 years later, I ran 14, 34 for 5Ks. but you know, there was like, and, and, and once again, in the marathon started at 317, you can make massive chunks in the beginning.

4:49So the next year I ran a sub three and then, you know, built it down five minutes year on year until I got sub to 20. Now I'm sort of going the opposite direction with a few seconds, but we're going to bring it back down at London next year. But anyways, I think, yeah, what I want to say is that's like, if you told me back then you from a 317, you'd run a 219, there's like at, at, when I did a 317, I was cooked. I was on the floor like crying, right? I was in bits. There's no ways I would have ever believed you. And I think it's so important to just aim for small goals, like look for small wins after small wins.

5:20And then when you look back on it, it like stacks up massively. So the same for the 5K, it took me four years to break 17 minutes for 5K. So I started at 25, it took me two years to break 20, then four years to break 17. And then from 17, it took another three years, I think, to break 15. And then I've broken 15 for the last five years, except for this year until tonight. But it just goes to show you like, it's, it takes a long time, a long, long time. And I think a lot of it depends on how badly you want it, right? Like there's been ups and downs and, you know, a lot of people say, I don't have a runner's build at 77, 78 kilograms.

5:58I don't come from a runner's background. You know, I used to smoke every day. I used to drink. I used to have fast food. Like I come from a bit of a wild party animal student background. And then my wife got me into running and and i sort of was like i'm super competitive so i was like that's not a bad time like what if i train harder what can i achieve and i've always had that mentality so it's so important to just aim for small one after small one and then it eventually stacks up and yeah you know it comes you take off minutes in the beginning but then eventually it comes down to seconds but yeah it's all just as rewarding if you were training somebody to run a sub 245 hypothetically speaking yeah just in theory obviously this isn't this question isn't tailored towards me at all.

6:36But what would you want to be seeing from a half? So definitely, if we look at your big half, for example, I've been following your last couple of races and it was a feel good big half, but according to your big half time, it definitely doesn't signify sub 245 shape. I think we'll both agree on that and your coach Alfie would as well. So if you look at someone of your ability, so I've been coaching runners now for six years and I've coached quite a few runners. Someone of your ability, you could probably take your half marathon time plus about eight to 12 minutes, I would say. So if you're running a 120 half, that doesn't put you into 245 category.

7:11Okay. In my experience, I've seen females tend to convert better. So female runners generally, and this is not for everyone, but a lot of female runners can run a 120 half and then have only a five minute fade for the marathon. But let's just say, you know, a guy that hasn't got that much marathon experience, maybe slightly bigger boy, not like thick skinny lean runner, I would say ideally you want to be doing like a 118 half double, that's 236 plus nine minutes. That's like, you probably want to be doing a 117, 118 half marathon. And bear in mind, if you are like big half, you've still got a lot of time till your race, okay?

7:47And it's an out of season race, but let's just say you're in peak performance on a route as good as Valencia with a taper race day adrenaline, race day vibes, that's what you want to be running.

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9:55I agree with you, by the way, the, you know, when I crossed the finish line in London, I was kind of happy with the time, but worried about the 245 goal, right? I thought, Jesus, like, I'm not, I'm not doubling that, you know, least of all today. Thank God I've got 14 weeks, but 14 weeks comes and goes, right? Newborn, four kids, you know, work. It's not like it's not like this is my sole focus. And I was a little bit worried. And I think along this journey and along the process, and I'd be curious to know how you coach your athletes. It's interesting because you sort of lose the love of running a little bit, right?

10:35Because you focus so much on being in a certain place at a certain time that something like a huge PB, like that London big half is worrying to me like it should be it should be an amazing thing right if you told me if you told me six months ago you know in this amount of time you're going to average 353 354 for a half you're going to run you know 122 123 I would have said amazing like I don't believe you type thing so it's I think it's quite important to say I feel like a good runner I'm happy with where I am, you know, is it enough? I don't know. But like, it shouldn't be that important. You know, you should feel happy with the progress.

11:17That's, you know, it's significantly faster than I've ever been. And also when you were talking about the nine minutes additional, when I ran, when I ran 257 in Tokyo, I'm not sure I'd ever broken 130 for a half before. So I did just double my best effort. Like that was my PB for the half marathon, you know, type of thing. So So I don't know. I think had you run a half marathon at Tokyo in those conditions with a group of people, you probably, in my guesstimation, you probably would have run a 123 half marathon there and thereabouts. So, well, I think, you know what? In Tokyo? In Tokyo, because if you double 123, that's 246 and you ran 257.

11:59Well, should I check? No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying, no, no, no. If you had to all out race a half marathon. Oh, I see. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I'm saying is, you said you haven't done a one sub 130 half but you did a 257 marathon i'm kind of saying well it's not a true reflection because you never really raced a quick half in that shape yeah so yeah if you just look at like the way things convert i would say on that day you probably would have run a 123 half had you have you just raised a half and example do you have any advice for people who just generally feel like they're plateauing a bit so so obviously for you your marathon pb is 219 219 how many seconds 219 45 219 45 so you got in by 15 seconds you you were looking to break 220 for a while it took you seven attempts yeah yeah or you failed seven times exactly yeah yeah yeah fall short seven times and you fell short once by just seven seconds or nine seconds yeah 220 08 so so nine seconds faster so talk me through your mentality to just keep coming back Was it a case of you're happy to just keep chipping away until you succeed?

13:04Or was there a time where you felt, I'm just not going to get this? I think, you know what, it's like very, very similar to your situation, actually. So it's cool to see how much that time means to you. And it's cool to see you put yourself out there and have those goals. Like I've got big respect for that, you know, and social media, people can support it and follow your journey. And it's incredible. But there's also people out like that get satisfaction from if you DNF a 10K, for example, or if you're not tracking for your time. So I think like first and foremost, it's very important to have a goal set to you.

13:34And at this era with social media and us comparing ourselves to others, it's so hard because there's so many quick people out there. Like there's way more quicker people now than 10 years or even six years ago when I started putting myself out there. So to not compare yourself to others is almost impossible. So you need to find out what's good for you. And then secondly, I think like having those goals keep you motivated in all other aspects of your life. Like, you know, if you have that mentality, it keeps you motivated in work. It keeps you like driven, keeps you hungry. And I find that if you use that running mentality towards other aspects of your life, it really is sort of like it's helped my business massively.

14:08Then there's also something to be said about the fact that at the end of the day, it is just the time, right? You don't get to the gates of heaven one day and God judges you on your time. Like to you, it means a lot. And you think people care. And, you know, we've documented our journeys and some people do care. But ultimately, like no one cares really as much as you. So it's cool to have those goals. But I think when you realize that time is just time is when you have to take time off, when you get an injury and you actually can't run, when running gets taken away from you, then at that point in time, you think, screw goals.

14:38Like, I just want to get out there running for the physical and mental benefits. So first and foremost, like that's where the happiness must come from. And you can't let like goals just, you know, determine your happiness. That like getting out there is so beneficial. And sometimes, like I said, it takes getting an injury to really appreciate that. And then like the times and that stuff's just a bonus. And, you know, I think in your case, like you've got a growing business, you're putting in a lot of efforts into your business. You've got four kids versus a 10 day old, which is honestly, I mean, I say like two kids feels like seven.

15:10So I don't even want to imagine why four kids. So there's so much respect in that, that like you're still targeting a sub 245, which is incredible. And I think there's a lot to take from the fact that you're only, running's weird. day, like you only feel as good as your last race. So you DNF'd in the 10K, you probably felt awful for a few days, you know, your coach dropped you, which we'll get on to shortly. I didn't quite drop you, but we'll go into that. Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not what happened. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I'm just adding a bit of spice. But yeah, you obviously like, you know, I've had bad races and then you feel, you're just like, as good as you're training, you feel as good as your last race.

15:46Now you've come off the big half. You actually had a cracker big half, in my opinion, and now you're buzzing and there's some good motivation. So can I just ask you one, I don't want to interrupt your thought, but just with the big half. Yeah. Sneaky hilly. So sneaky. Big half is not a fast route. I was really surprised, right, by the course. Like it is so far from flat, right? Like I would go so far as to call it a really slow course. Like you're uphill for loads of it, right? It's strange. Also pretty hot. Still a really good performance. I took my top off and my God, like so many comments like, why don't you just listen to the race rules?

16:26I don't know the race rules. I apologize to anyone who was irritated that I took my top off. I run topless every single day, whether it's hot or cold. I love running topless. I like the feel of the breeze on my body. That's just who I am. I genuinely like, where would you expect me to get the rules for the race? Anyway, I won't do it again. No, no, no. You should be disqualified. I don't care if I'm disqualified. I have my time. Take my medal, disqualify. I couldn't give a fuck. You weren't disqualified though, right? No, of course not. Okay, great. But I wouldn't care if I was. So yeah, I think obviously that's the thing about social media.

17:04As soon as something's on there, it gets traction, right? So I think first and foremost, AirPods, no, no go. Shocks, open run pro headphones or bone conduction headphones, yes. AirPods, you get disqualified. Shocks, you're fine. Secondly, in like a big central London event, like Big Half and London Marathon, try not take your shirt off if it's got your race number on. So if you run around shirtless, people actually tag, they put bibs on their numbers, on their tops or on your shorts. But if you take your vest off and you don't have a race number, disqualified, like, and you probably can't even fight it.

17:34So if people say that. And then finally, and this is probably like these two. Hang on, you can take your top off if your bib number's on your shorts. I think so. I think so. Like in Valencia, can I just start topless? Like it is, Just before people misunderstand this, this has nothing to do with wanting to be topless. I think that running topless is like a performance enhancer. Is it? You know what? You're like too good to be like this. Scullion was just like completely traumatized whenever I take my top off in the park because he doesn't think I'm going fast enough. So he was like at the track, he was like, you have to be running sub three minute Ks in order to justify taking a top off.

18:18And I was just like, well, that sounds like a stupid rule. So I'm going to take my top off now. You work hard on your body. I think it's fine. So it has nothing to do with that, Nick. So if it doesn't make you feel faster. It doesn't make you feel faster. It makes me feel faster. And it makes like, it's almost like, to me, it's like, I can't breathe when I'm in the top. But when I take the top off, I'm like, like I'm like reborn. It's like being born again. So if it makes you feel faster, take it off. Make sure your race number and your chip's always visible at all times. Okay. then another controversial point is, so there's another two things.

18:52One is that if you run in super shoes that are a higher stack than the 40 millimeter drop, right? Or sorry, 40 millimeter stack out. So prime Xs, 50 millimeters. So for someone that's elite or sub elites like myself, no go. Like, you know, I can get disqualified for that. A lot of kickback on social media. For someone like you - For prime X3s. For prime X3s. For someone like you, if you're running a sub 245, I'm giving that to you. You claiming it, it's awesome. You won't get disqualified, but there will be a bit of kickback on social media. The reason why is this, they'll say, how can the world's best not run in them?

19:28But you can. And you're saying, but I'm not competing with the world's best. I'll tell you why. Well, no, actually, there's another reason. Okay. It would not benefit the world's best. And that's the truth. In certain cases. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, the world's best all weigh 60 kilos, right? So wearing a big heavy 400 gram shoe or whatever it weighs, I think it's 290, is it? it's like it's like 150 grams heavier so Sebastian Saue ain't running a PB in Prime X3s he's not doing it no no no if Sebastian Saue could choose any shoe in the world to run faster it definitely wouldn't be a Prime X3 no 100 % Scully put the Prime X3s I insisted that Scully wear Prime X3s right because he was just like I've never worn them and I was like you've never worn them I was like dude you're fucking retired I was like you are going to go like a whippet in these things.

20:18I was like, they're the fastest, best shoe ever made. He bought a pair. He literally called me. He was like, you can have these. He's like, I hate them. And he literally was like, they're heavy, they're bulky. Like, I can't run in them. I took them off. Like, I hate them. I was like, okay. And he was like, the fact that you went sub three in these is astounding. So I was like, you know, maybe there's something to be said for them. I think a runner like Jordan Stanton, you know, over 100 kilograms, like very beneficial Prime X3s, like lots of low going through it. where Sebastian and Sarway 50 kilograms pro Evo 3s and RS landed in those 97 grams of pure heaven I've never actually felt anything like it have you actually not?

20:54and I've I can't get my hands on one offer to pay really can't get them I've got a pair for you but I've worn them and then they what size shoe are you? I'm size 11 in that 11? yeah what size are you? I'm not a size 11 Jesus do you know what it's my race so normally I'm a 10 but in my racing shoe I go 11 but yeah so look at London Marathon and I was 77 kilograms, right? So still very heavy. So they're benefiting someone like Skyway a whole lot more. But I've run in the Pro Evo 1s, Pro Evo 2s. I've been with Adidas for like four or five years now. And those were sort of 130 grams. The Pro Evo 3s were 97 grams and more responsive.

21:30So I think there's something to be said about the fact that when I put them on, I was like, are you actually kidding me? But then there's also something to be said about the fact that it changes your mentality because you're like, there's only Skyway, Kajolcha and maybe one or two other runners in London Marathon wearing the shoe. I'm wearing the shoe I'm like you better show up like even if you're finding it tough like you are showing up you're not putting a bad name on the shoe but yeah the durability is a whole lot worse off than the first two versions so the first two versions I could probably get like about 100k's worth of racing this one I did London Marathon so 42k's plus a half no plus a 10k so 52k's and I glued it between London Marathon and the 10k they were broken completely but I mean and then obviously on the one side there's you know a lot of kickback from people saying like 450 pounds or$500 for, for one race.

22:15Like this isn't good for the environment, but then on the other side, Adidas, you know, saying like sub two marathon, you know, we're not making the shoe for the environment. Like we're making the shoe to break records. So yeah, incredible shoe. And I hope Pro 5 coming out as well. Pro 5 coming out around Berlin marathon time. Yeah. So two weeks time. Yeah. Pretty cool. Are you in Berlin? No, no, no. So do you know what? When I ran 219.45, that was Berlin two years ago. And I finished on such a high there. And I went back there four times in a row. I finished on such a high that I'm like, I want to sort of leave it there.

22:46It was so good. But I think actually next year, I'm ready to go back there again. Sorry, but just final thing, back to the race rules, just so that you know, the last thing I would say is that, and you probably don't know this either, but as far as it goes, when you're running a race, if someone's giving you drinks on route, that's outside of a designated drink area, you can get disqualified. So I don't know if that's for the everyday runner, but like elites and sub-elites. So someone can stand and pass your drinks. So like Kipchoge had a personal dude who gave him drinks. But if like I, for example, collected a drink from a mate at Valencia Marathon that was out of position, out of a drinks table, someone saw that on YouTube and was like, just to let you know, you can get disqualified for this.

23:27Thankfully, I wouldn't have minded. It wasn't, you know, a PB. But still, I was like, wow, okay, cool. So you just want to avoid the situations, let's say. Okay. with that in mind and and the fact that i am crap at running a race line so i obviously know that you go off your chip time and i'm not trying to claim an extra minute but you know according to my data i crossed half marathon in 120 150 something so i ran for an extra minute because i was running an extra 300 meters or 350 meters or whatever yeah so it's not it my point is had I run a perfect race line, it would have been a faster effort, right?

24:04But can't bank on that. Because Valencia is 10 degrees cooler, faster. Is there anything to be said? Definitely, definitely. Okay. So look, I've done every single big half except for this year. So I've done eight big halves in a row, I think. And this year was the first year that I missed it. And I was gutted. I was like, I didn't realize it. So I look back and I realized that that streak's over. but big half is not a fast half marathon. So it's weird because it's the middle section of London Marathon. I guess it's exact routes that London Marathon goes on but London Marathon's got the world record and the second fastest time ever.

24:37And I wouldn't say London Marathon is actually the fastest marathon in the world. I think it's fast-ish but one of the fastest. So you would think a middle section of that would be quick but it's actually the slowest section of the marathon. So the route is not great. It's always hot. There's the cobble section. There's a lot of kinks and turns. Like there's something to be said in this as well. So when I broke 220 for the marathon, I did big half three weeks before Berlin. I was like, this is my goal half marathon. I need to run like, you know, 66 low in order to be in sub 220 shape. You get very sort of numbers focused.

25:07I ran 69, around 69 minutes, right? So I finished and I was super disappointed. And I was like, I'm not in sub 220 shape. Like I've blown it. Like I've, you know, I'm gonna have to come along. And then I realized actually, and the second half of Berlin marathon, and I think I was quicker than what I ran the big half in. Really? So a race like Berlin and Valencia, way quicker than the big half. And just bear in mind as well, that's yes, you've got 200 meters over, but at Valencia, your watch is going to say 42.6 kilometers. It's not going to say 42.2. One, because you're never going to take the inside line because there's lots of people around you.

25:44But two, your GPS is always going to be a little bit out. So you might actually be closer to 42.2, but your watch is going to say 42.6 because of like the turns. It's going faster then. Every time you turn. so you don't necessarily need to go faster what you need to do is you need to write down split times down on your arm for every 5k 10k 15k and just know exactly according to distance markers on route this is what I'm on because the big half like sorry to dwell on the same thing like they the first 5k on the actual course was 4.7 on my watch right so that came up early then the second one was longer like it was no no but you remember the first 5k you go down that massive under the tunnel.

26:26Yeah, yeah. So your GPS is completely wonky. So exactly. But then obviously it makes up later on, right? So I went through the first 5K in 1904 or something. According to your watch or according to the chip? No, according to the chip. Okay. So like I'm going way faster than I need to be going, right? Yeah, yeah. You're going... 20 seconds overall. So five seconds a K faster. Yeah, 348 per K, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. but it wasn't coming up as that on the watch because it's all a bit scrambled. So all of a sudden I was like, oh shit, I'm going too fast. Great. Nice problem to have, I suppose.

26:59But that's sort of probably why the latter stage of it, you feel slightly cooked, right? So look, as an outsider looking at your training and your progress and your mentality, I would say a sub 245 is 100 % on the cards. 14 weeks out. Yeah, I think it's even a little bit less than 14 weeks. Okay.

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28:56Is that your honest opinion? No, no, no. It's my honest opinion. Because you've got so much time, you've learned a lot. Scully has taught you a lot. You've got a really good group at Battersea Park, but you need to break it down into numbers. So now we know that your half marathon time needs to be 118, preferably 117, okay? So you can work towards that. And if you can do that sort of - What's the average pace for that? So the average pace for that is, I think about 342-ish or so. Just double check. But if you can do that, the ideal time to race a half is about seven to three weeks before Valencia Marathon.

29:27So look for a nice quick half marathon and then build up to it. Then you need to break that down even further and you need to say, okay, cool. If your half marathon pace is 342 per kilometer and your marathon pace is 353, then your 10K pace needs to be sort of like 338 and your 5K pace, you know, 333, for example. So you need to almost like work backwards. 5K pace, 333, I could be. I'm just, yeah, exactly. But what I'm saying is you're a bigger boy, not stick skinny. So your conversion is going to be tougher. So generally your 5K, you'll be rated better for your 5K than your marathon. Someone like Jordan Stanton, once again, his 5K will be rated more higher than his marathon because marathon or running in general is power to head ratio.

30:06So, you know, how strong you are in force relative to how much you weigh and how much power you're putting out. So if you weigh a lot over the course of a marathon, it's harder and harder. Whereas if you're doing an 800 meter, like, you know, you're smoking, it's a type thing. So yeah, that's, it's worth bearing that in mind. But the fact that, you know, in your 5k speed, so something I use a lot just for reference is the Jack Daniels VDOT calculator. So go online and check that race predictor. So it's the most popular race predictor thing there is. Put in your 5K PB time and see what marathon time it gives you.

30:40And that bears in mind that you've done the correct training for the marathon. Then once again, put in the marathon time you're looking for, 244.59, and see what 5K time you need to do. And if you can do that 5K time, you know you're capable of that in the marathon if you get that training right and consistent for it. So like - Are you looking that up, Bella? You're almost - Jack Daniels VDOT. Jack Daniels VDOT. Yeah, so go and have a look at that. And I think it'll give you confidence because you know you've got the shortest in speed. It's just a question of, you know, getting in those marathon-specific long runs, but you're in good hands with Alfie and a group.

31:11So there's no reason why. But it's almost like you're creating a reality out of it. So one 23 half marathon, definitely not sub 245 shape. 14 weeks out in the big half, like that's promising. There's lots to take in that. And then I know you mentioned earlier about me near missing for seven times in a sub 220. So I tried over the course of, I think three to four years where I ran 250, sorry, 220 and 59 seconds and then 220 and eight seconds. Then I had kids and then life got harder and I ran 221, 27, 222, 12 and 222, 40. So my slowest was 220, 240 and my fastest was 220, 08. So I was like super, super, super consistent.

31:53All in Berlin? No, no, no. So it was Berlin, Berlin, Berlin, but then it was also Manchester and Rotterdam and Seville. So three there, three Berlin. And people were just like, yeah, you're one of the most consistent sub elite runners there. But I just couldn't get that sub 220. And there's something about near misses being the most motivational thing ever. Like if you hit your goal and I thought I would break 220 and it was honestly, I'm still buzzing. It was two years ago. I'm still so happy because I'd worked so hard towards it. But I thought I'd break 220 and be like on top of the world for the rest of my life.

32:29But you hit your goal and then it's incredible. And then you almost lose your sense of purpose. So it's like when you're just missing your goal, like let's say you run a 245, 30, right? It's an incredible performance, but you're going to be so hungry to make that right next time. Whereas if you run a 244, 450, you're having beers with your mates for the next few months, you're letting your head down completely. So like, I think those near misses are really, really, there's nothing more motivational than missing something by a few seconds. And I've done that throughout my running journey. So like even at London Marathon, I tried to run a sub 230 and I ran 230 in one second.

33:02I ran the first half in 72, so tracking for a 224 and the second half in 78.02. And I missed it by one second. And I sat in a crowd under a tree for like a good solid five minutes. Those photos still circulate. I don't know who the photographer was taking photos, but it's pretty funny. And they were like, if your race doesn't go according to plan, that's what they use that photo for. but anyways I was I was absolutely distraught and I was like I can never let that happen again so you missed by one second well by two seconds yeah and and I was like I just can't let this happen again and I trained so hard from that point onwards it like lit up a demon in me that was like I can't let this happen and that helped me so much for the rest of my journey so those near misses can be the best thing for you how do you keep in races when you know that you're not going to make it so you know i had that shite experience with the 10k i'll never do that again by the way like there's nothing wrong with my legs i wasn't bonking like i threw up because i had eaten a stupid time um but because i wasn't going to hit my time the time i had set myself that nobody else gives a shit about i kind of bailed on the race i stopped i said hi to vogue i ran another 4k 5k whatever so i did my 12k for the evening or whatever but i just sacked off the race, which is really lame.

34:17And I wouldn't do that in a marathon if my body was working, if I'm injured or whatever, that's different. Right. But you know, even if you can't achieve your goal in the marathon, it's my humble opinion. You should just finish the marathon. You should respect the race, finish the marathon. I didn't respect that 10 K. I just, I feel like a tosser, right. For what I did. Um, but how do you as an elite or sub elite runner, and can you give me some tips, you know, heading into Valencia, like you're on pace, you're on pace, you're on pace, you're on pace for 30, 35 K. It's like, you know, you're, you're right there on the edge and then your legs just stop working a bit and, and the pace drops and you know, you know, it's gone.

34:54You know, you, you know that you're not going to do it. Like, what do you, what do you do? How do you, how do you try and stay in the race? So I think first and foremost, like mentality going into the races, you need to be bulletproof. You need to be a hundred percent convinced that you're going to do it. So when I was missing my sub two twenties by a few seconds or a couple of minutes, I went into each attempt 110 % believing like this is the one I can do it. Because if there's any bit of doubt, those marathon demons in the last 10Ks, they will play on that doubt so much that you'll start doubting yourself.

35:20And it's normal to doubt yourself as a runner, but you almost need to like put the proof, like build up the training and get to the start line knowing that like you are 110%. And if that happens, it happens, you're there with it, but you need to back yourself a lot. Then secondly, I think it's also a bit of a blessing in disguise that you DNF this 10K because you felt like absolute shite afterwards and you never want that feeling ever again, right? I watched your YouTube video and you were like, you know, you feel like a bit embarrassed and you're never going to let this happen. And when you have those thoughts, because I think about DNFing almost every race at some point.

35:52So do I now. Is that normal? It's normal. It's normal. What I was going to say to you is for someone who has the level of confidence that I have, who believes that you can do anything. Oh, I've never done an Ironman before. I'll just do one anyway. You know, whatever. Just like I've got this natural kind of confidence. Whereas when I'm racing and running, I find it different. Racing, like doing an endurance event, aka this will be done providing you don't give up, just like grit into it. Like when it gets rough, just carry on. It's very different, like running 30 marathons in 30 days or doing seven Ironmans in seven corners.

36:27It's different because you can kind of control how you feel. You have time to rationalize things. You can sit with yourself for five minutes and then get back on the road. you can kind of you can give yourself the break that your body needs from time to time when you're chasing a fast marathon you can't do any of that right so these demons they come knocking on your forehead and it's kind of it feels like shit and you and i'm wondering i would have thought i would be the guy right who can just block these out who can just get rid of these like intrusive thoughts who can literally just be like i'm the man i can run this like you know get rid of and i i'm actually I'm actually not that guy.

37:08And right now I've got loads of doubt and loads of things that I don't fully believe in myself or anything. Like, do you have any advice? Look, running always is a way of humbling you, right? So you can be like on cloud nine, super confident and running will humble you from time to time. So I think in your case, what you've achieved in your life is incredible. And it takes a certain type of mindset to be able to go again, go again, go again. But because you've had that mindset of you can stop and reset, I think that negatively affects performance running in a way because performance running, it burns.

37:40Those demons are flying in your mind and you've got to block them out and you've got to back yourself and you've got to be like, no, no, no, no, no. Whereas you used to like, okay, reset, go again, reset, go again. So you need to shift that mentality, which will come. The more you race, the more you train, the more you'll be able to shift that mentality. Then going into where like, you know, you've missed your target, how do you hang in there. I think there's a big piece on that that like speaks to the fact that running a race is such a minute part of your day or your journey or your training block that whatever you put in during those moments right there, you'll think about for the rest of your life.

38:12So for example, when I ran a 220, 240, I knew I'd missed the 220 with 30Ks to go, but I didn't give up because I'm like, fight for every second. With 30Ks to go? Sorry, with 12Ks to go, the 30K points, sorry. God, I'm about to say that. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's a shame feeling. So it was 12Ks of like knowing I've missed my goal. And I think once you're in that state, you're demoralized. So it's almost impossible to pick yourself back up. Whereas when you're progressing, you're like, I can do this, I can do this. The belief starts, you get that adrenaline rush and you get the extra kick. When it goes the other way, which is for 90 % of marathoners that fade, let's say in a race, you've got to just think like whatever you put in in those minutes, those seconds right there, you'll thank yourself for one day.

38:52And that's when I tap into like my reasons for why I run. and a lot of it's for people that are no longer with me. And I feel like at those super hard stages where you need to now run with your heart, that's when it's like you feel closest to those people and you want to do them proud almost. And you're suffering and it feels so long. It feels like 10K is such a long time. And then afterwards, you're like, it's for such a small time. So I think the more you put yourself into those positions, the tougher you get and the more you realize it feels like such a long time in that moment, but it's a minute little tiny fraction in your running journey that you've just got to got to give it your all.

39:27Look, in your case, if you're going to do a sub 245, you have to 110 % believe. But if you're hitting a wall, then you run a 250. It's a similar period. Even the fact that I said to you earlier, like I'm after a 245 in December, that's the timeframe I set myself. It's all part of like the narrative of the journey. Like if the target was Boston next year, I'd skip tonight's session. So what? You know, I'd go home and have a casserole. Yeah, yeah. No, there's nothing more motivational than having races in the calendar. And that's why I say like some race, you can over race, you can race too much, but life's too short to not race regularly.

40:02So you want to use some races as non-goal races. So like B-goal races where - That's Berlin coming up. Exactly. How would you run that? So not just for me specifically. So like a B-goal race, Alfie wants me to run Berlin like a session. Yeah. So how would - So I would say like two options. And I'll obviously chat to your coach about this. but one is if you're running a 123 half at a big half, which is tougher, right? You should run a sub three fairly comfortably, but I would run it in a way that recovery is a lot quicker afterwards. So you don't wanna go out the gates too hot. So for sub three, you need to average 416, 415 per kilometer.

40:37So I would say do it as like a progression run. So start at like 425, drop it down to 420, 415, 410, dip under three in style. Recovery will be quicker, right? You'll be below your threshold for a long period of the time. The other option is to - That'd be cool to run like a perfect negative split sub three. That's nice, isn't it? Because you know that you've got more in the tank then. That'll be a big confidence booster for you. And the fact that like you're going to be progressing is like you're overtaking people in that last 10 Ks and there's nothing more motivational than overtaking people in that last 10.

41:07But yeah, remember no AirPods and put your number on if you take your shirt off. Then another option is that you could do a session within it. So like maybe like three times 10 K blocks at goal marathon pace, which is 353. With 6K warmup, 6K cooldown. Well, you don't need that much. Yeah. So it's like if you're doing floats in between, you probably only need like a four or 5K warmup, three times 10K. In the race, like use the race to warm up. Exactly. So 5K is warmup, three by 10K, 5K is cool down. And you got two, 1K floats in between. That'll give you 42Ks, right? So that's like, and you want to target practicing your marathon pace.

41:43So 353 and your warmup and cool down, that can be like 445. So you want marathon pace for the three blocks of 10K? Exactly. And then a third option is that you pace someone to a sub three and make their, you know, like there's something to be said about helping others achieve their goals. Imagine going out there and not. Okay, maybe. Imagine you go out and you just fall apart. No, but at least like do your job until a certain point. Like I think when you PB yourself, it's incredible. But when you help someone else achieve their PB, it's like times 10 that feeling. when you see how much it means to them.

42:17And the fact that like, if you're in control of pacing, it's like you've taken this leadership figure, you almost hold yourself more accountable. And even if you're seeing flames, you don't want to show this person that you're tired. So it's like, you keep a spring on your side, you stay motivated. So that could work well. I had like a daydream the other day about exactly that. Just like on the day, pace someone to a 245 and just tell yourself that this is a piece of piss for you. And then, because you know, it's going to get hard, but because you're pacing someone, you kind of have to cling in and you have to show them that it's okay.

42:51I actually genuinely think that that could be helpful. Super, super helpful. Because it's kind of like, you know, you're the rock, right? So it's kind of like, if they start to find it hard, you have to be the one who goes, come on, come on. Like, you'll always be that massive. I think, I think, like, because I'm getting loads of messages from people saying, hey, I'm doing Valencia and I'm aiming for 245. We should get a little group and I should just, even though, like there's a good chance I won't hit it. Like just take that kind of leadership role in the group. I think it'd be interesting. Yeah, yeah.

43:19But just be careful because like, there'll be so many runners around you, but linking up for people at big marathons like that that are going for a similar time is risky business. Like you need to run your own race, right? So you need to, you'll work out what times and splits to go through. But like I've seen it happen lots where you link up with, you know, randoms on social media and it's awesome, but then you get too excited. And then it's like your race is blown because one person got excited. So yeah, just almost be like selfish on race that you've trained so hard for it that if there's people around you, which there will be, tuck in and use it to your advantage.

43:48And if not, then yeah, just run your own race. Okay, so I know I've mentioned this already, but there's quite a lot of talk going around in the running space, especially within my circle of mates about sort of what's going on with you and Scully. I know, I think from the last we saw on social media, you did a 10K and he dropped quite a strong comment on your YouTube video saying like, you guys have achieved a lot together, but it's about time you part ways. Do you just want to shed a bit of light on to what that situation is about so I can clarify with him? Sure. I'll kick this off by saying I have so much respect for Scully, right?

44:20And just straight out the gates, we haven't fallen out. Scully and I are mates, right? So at the end of the big half, had a lovely chat, big hug. We actually went for a pint together. We spoke about running. We spoke about 245. We don't dislike each other. There's a few factors at play in why the training relationship broke down a bit. I probably am not as disciplined, even though I am very disciplined, as Scully may have wanted. Scully is a perfectionist. He's an Olympic athlete. His attention to detail is kind of second to none. and he, as he absolutely should, values his time enormously as I did.

45:06I think any bending of those rules, you know, running a session a little faster, changing a session slightly, made him pretty irate, right? So you felt like a naughty boy breaking the rules pretty much? Well, sort of, yeah. Our relationship became under a little bit of strain, right? Because, you know, Scully sent me a session. He wanted me to run at, you know, 410s, you know, 4 times 4K at 410s or something. I ended up running them at like 3.55 I felt great on the day so I wanted to run faster I didn't realise really that that was going to be a big problem and it kind of was a problem then came the 10k of course which I'm just as disappointed probably more so than anyone else Scully felt a bit disrespected I ignored his warm up all of this stuff is stupid and all of this stuff is on me I should have obviously just listened to Scully you know I fueled like a complete idiot I had a massive sandwich like you learn you learn before yeah I was drinking Luca's age just before he told me not to do these things I was like very very excited I was filming an episode of 245 I was with like all my boys I didn't take it as seriously as I should have etc etc on holiday when I was in Spain it was around the time of the World Cup uh I enjoyed a few beers with like with my family and like Scully began to find that like a little bit aggravating.

46:28And I just said, mate, like this isn't, this isn't my life. This isn't my job. I'm not a professional athlete. 245 is, is great. It's just a target for me. Like if I don't hit it in December, I'll hit it, you know, Q1 next year, I'll hit it summer next year. It's something that I'm just chipping away at. I've given myself a timeframe so that the story has like a narrative and so that it's difficult to do. But ultimately if I run like a 249, am I going to like go out and you know be really upset like definitely not you know I'm just I'm working towards something but it this isn't my life I have you know running is not my life right I have four kids yeah and so he just started to maybe feel like I wasn't valuing his time as much as I should have been okay he also is building run zones so like he was coding and stuff for I want to say like 19 hours a day like he he was he was very very very focused on another project and so I I messaged him and I just said listen mate you know like I feel like our relationship's under a little bit of strain uh it's not as fun as it was right like I think I think you're a bit annoyed with me and I don't have access to you in the way that I'm used to yeah uh and I just said like why don't we just why don't we just be friends like let's park this and be mates and I'll get trained by someone else.

47:49And he just said, yeah, cool. That's a good idea. So I just said, fine. Like we're 38 year olds adults who are busy and just the relationship began to feel, it began to drain a bit of the fun out of the process, to be honest, because it did become a case of expert and pupil. And that's fine. Like I learned so much from Scully. I think he's a genius. I love him. There was really no room for any kind of movement. I just thought a bit like, God, I feel like I'm at school here. No, no, no. I get what you mean. I think, you know what? He's a legend of the game. He's a Belter, mate. Look, I am very lucky to have ever been coached by someone like Stephen Scullion.

48:32I genuinely mean that. There's no hard feelings. Like we're pals literally sending each other jokes today. It's all good. there's a fascination around like what happens and ultimately it just it just didn't work in the way that we were hoping it might and that's all i suppose there's probably always going to be a clash at some point with the elite mentality versus like you know you everyday runner trying to perform as best as possible i take it pretty seriously might have you know been a bit of a clash but i take it pretty seriously by the way like i don't i don't miss sessions i train hard you know i i'm i'm into it big time but i'm also not gunning for the 2027 olympics and it's kind So if you get excited in a session and go 10 seconds a bit faster.

49:10If I have a beer with my mates on Sunday, like I'd rather not, you know, hear about it, you know, all of the next week type thing, especially if I'm hitting my sessions. Yeah, for sure. Okay, cool. And then, and you and Alfie, I know obviously you've had him on the podcast before. And did that just naturally happen or was it like, cool, you know, I've partnered with Steven. Would you coach me? Just wanted a bit of advice, yeah, on the coaching front. It's a bit of a different style with Alfie. We don't know each other that well. I've met him in here. And he lives in Manchester, obviously. He's also a current elite runner, so he's pretty busy himself.

49:42I'm now being coached in the way that Stephen would have wanted me to be coached, which is Alfie sets me a week and I just do it, and then he'll comment on it, which is kind of where we were heading with Stephen. But when I started with Stephen, we were kind of together. We were filming together. We were running together. We were telling a story together. And then when Stephen began to feel like that was a lot, it fell apart a bit. And so I was like, oh, well, I'll be, you know, I'm looking for that. But anyway. Lovely. Okay, cool. Thanks. Now when people ask the questions, I can just be like, cool.

50:12You live just down the road? Great. So I'm hearing whispers that you might be going to Kenya. Obviously, Animal Petros was on here, one of the best around and such a big personality. If he didn't convince you, I'm going to try and convince you to go throughout the course of this chat. But yeah, what an incredible place. And have you booked to go or are you planning on going? I think I'm okay to say that I'm going to be doing some stuff with Puma, I think. I have a bit of a relationship with them now after that episode. So who knows? I think they've been very kind to me in that they have sourced me a Berlin bib.

50:48And I think I'm going to be trialing some of their shoes in Valencia potentially. And they did mention Kenya. So we'll see. I think with the newborn and working bits and bobs, I just need to understand what the rest of my year looks like before committing to anything. Amazing. If you get the opportunity, I would say, you know, take it. For sure, I understand with family commitments, it's a bit hard. But just bear in mind that you're going from sea level to 2 ,800 metres above sea level. So your first three, four days, you're going to feel like absolute shite. Like come back a beast though. We'll come back and race Battersea Park Run.

51:19Yes, sub-17 as soon as we get back. Oh, mate, that'll be amazing. Imagine coming back from Kenya and just October, will nuke the parkrun. Yeah. You know, you know, at 2 ,800 meters, your body's generating extra red blood cells. Yes, I do know that. Natural EPO almost. So you come down to sea level, you've got those red blood cells, Battersea Parkrun's going to feel downhill. I think, I'd love to do it. I think, there's half a chance that I go with Puma in October. I imagine it's the same place that you're talking about. E10 in Kenya is the most popular. Yeah, yeah. But, but hey, we're January again, let's go.

51:53It would be, what it's like. Obviously, like, I mean, with family situation, I've got two kids so it's hard to be away for two weeks so I can imagine with four it's just as hard but I suppose, you know, two weeks in the year is not that long and... We can put our kids together somewhere though. Yeah, okay, cool. Maybe they can just go to like safari or something down the road. Kenya's got a great safari. Okay, I'll invite you and you can't say no and you invite me and I can't say no and then we'll end up there. And then, and then, you know, we'll just dump the kids in the Serengeti somewhere. Sounds good.

52:20Safari time while we train. But you're probably, compared to battery speed, you're probably at least about 20 to 30 seconds per kilometer slower. For people who are out there running kind of 5Ks and 10Ks regularly, is there any kind of tests that you can do to predict what your time might be? Okay, so there's a 1K test you can do to determine your 5K time. Look, I've put this test out on my Instagram before and a lot of people are like, just do a 5K to determine your 5K time. But if you're sort of not sure what shape you're in and what's the target for the 5K, you need to do a 1k as fast as possible i'm talking like you know get your super shoes on battersea park track like go as fast as possible then whatever you do that one kilometer in the track yeah yeah so if you fly on a track or battersea whatever is quicker go go with that then whatever you do that one kilometer in you add about 20 to 30 seconds and that's what time your average pace for the 5k should be so if you're on the faster end like let's say a sub 17 minute 5K runner, you'll probably add 20 seconds.

53:19If you're around sort of 20 to 25, you'll probably add about 25 seconds. And if you're over 25 minutes for 5Ks, then you'll add about 30 or 35. So an example is if you're doing a 1K as fast as possible in 320, all right, then you're adding about 20 seconds, 340, that's going to be your average pace for the 5K. So that's sort of like what you should target. Then the same can be said for a 10K. This is just indicative, right? It's not always gonna be the same. If you've got a track background, it might be a little bit quicker on your short citizen stuff. But for a 10K, 1K as fast as possible, then you add between 30 to 40 seconds if you're on the faster side.

53:59So if you're sort of a sub 40 minute 10K runner. So for example, if you're doing 1K in four minutes per K, you add 30 to 40 seconds. So 430 to 440 per K, that's your average pace for the 10K, what you should be targeting. and if you sort of above 50 minutes for the 10K, then you can add about 45 to 60 seconds depending on how far out that range you are. But yeah, it's a cool little test that you do and I think ultimately like if you improve, so let's say you do this marathon and you're going to learn a lot from it, but if you want to take significant chunks, if you want to go from a 245 to a 230, you need to improve your 1K time and that'll feed into your 5K time into your 10 half marathon marathon.

54:36So it'll increase that range. Nick, I can't thank you enough for coming in, mate. It's an absolute belter. I'll see you in the park later. I'll run the opposite way to you so that I can cheer you on as much as possible I'd love to go running with you and I'd love to take you up on that Battersea Park run I literally live in the park so that'd be great you're doing reps there in my absence yes mate no it's cool to see that'd be awesome okay great I'm 100 % up for that just let me know and yeah hopefully when I see you on the second lap I'm still conscious but it's all systems go go go I just got nervous when I thought about it again I'm going to scream in your face twice when I'm running past.

55:12I can't wait to see you. It's a sub-15 kind of day. It is, man. Come on! It's beautiful. For sure. Thank you. All right, brother. Cheers. All the best. Cheers, man.

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