From British Army Captain To 100-Mile Champion | Tom Evans

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1:25stage racing compared to Badwater that's flat, relatively, but very hot to a UTMB to like personal projects. Like it's so varied. The person who might be the best at one of them probably won't be the best at another of them. So yeah, I think in sort of conventional ultra running, I've won some great races. I've cocked up some great races, but yeah, I'd say I was at the leading edge with others, which is cool. What do you think gives you your edge at your core? The short answer that sounds great is I've got this ability to suffer and this ability to push on when I'm feeling absolutely horrendous.

2:10That's sort of the easy one that springs to mind. But I Having done a lot of lab testing, like my physiology is different. We did a lot of testing in Leeds last year, and we had to redo the test because they were like, this data can't be right. We've never seen efficiency in sort of a fat max with my ability to burn fat over carbohydrate. Funnily enough, every other time we've tested it, it's been exactly the same. Most people understand that past a certain heart rate, you'll be burning carbs. you'll be depleting your glycogen. Before that, you'll be burning fat. So your special ability is to burn fat at higher heart rates.

2:54Not necessarily a higher heart rate, but I am able to move quicker for less energy. So burning less glycogen? Burning hardly any glycogen. The carbohydrate recommendations being 90, they call it 90 grams an hour. At my race pace, I'm burning 30 grams an hour. So it's easier for you to remain fully fueled from a consumption standpoint. Or I don't need to fuel, which I do fuel to have a buffer. But I could go do five, six hours without fueling, which I'm not recommending to anyone. And I don't do this because the recovery impact is so huge. but my body is capable of being able to burn use fat as a primary source for longer than studies of shown it can do.

3:52That's very interesting and quite cool. You're kind of like an Avenger or something. Maybe one of the really shit ones. What's your superpower? Well, I can burn fat more efficiently than you. I have a very high fat max which doesn't sound quite as cool as flying or sort of x-ray vision or teleporting. Yeah, it's a fairly useless one. But it's also useful at the same time because if an array of stomach issues seem to be people's biggest issues, if I don't go off too hard, I know I'm not going to get a stomach issue because if I start getting a stomach issue, I'd say, okay, well, I just won't fuel for two hours and I'll be fine.

4:34Clean it out. Yeah, and I'll be fine. Do you think your previous life as a British Army captain helps you when things become trickier? Do you have any experiences that almost take you back and make certain stages of certain difficult races feel easier than perhaps they are? Yes, definitely, because failure just wasn't an option. As a captain, as an officer, you were there to lead by example. It would never occur to me to pull out or to stop doing an exercise or a hard bit of physical activity. You would just crack on, whether you had a niggle, whether you were injured, whatever it was. You would just carry on because failure just wasn't an option.

5:20And it wasn't competitive, but it was just about completion for a lot of it. So I guess that transfers across quite nicely into training that I very, very rarely quit in a session. But I then think on the other side of it, the thing that's interesting that actually slightly holds you back is now that I'm a professional athlete, like it's so easy. Oh, I'm not having my day. Okay, I'll stop. I almost need to get myself into the mentality that because these long races are such, that if you have a bad two, three hours, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter, even at the sharp end of the race, because you can, the 20-hour race, the 20-hour race, and you have three bad hours, it's not the end of the world.

6:02So I think slightly getting back into that mentality of you can't fail is great. But then on the other side of it, it's like, okay, well, now actually, if you have got an injury, if you're not going to finish on the podium or you're not going to be able to perform at your best, like why would you carry on? And I guess as the sport of trail running grows, there are more opportunities. And when you're doing this as a job, and I get that trail running is a very slowly professionalizing sport where it is now compared to where it was 10 years ago is almost unrecognizable. And some people like that.

6:37Some people don't like that. As a professional athlete, I paid more money, the better my results are. So if you're going to finish fifth in a race and put 100 miles through your legs, there's not much point in doing it. When if you only race three times a year, you're trying to put food on the table, you might as well stop and okay, tomorrow's another day, let's fight a different battle. Whereas in the military, it's very much okay, well, you need to fight today, because you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. It's an interesting mindset, and one that applies to all kinds of stuff. I think it'd be interesting to talk a bit more about that because obviously there are clear figures in ultra running and you know this whole never give up you know never stop you know always push through pain uh attitudes and i i find them a little bit grating sometimes because i don't think it's always possible to to soldier on and push through if you have a big goal in mind and you're pushing for a particular time target, say, and you're chipping away at that goal, and you have a big niggle in training, running through it and aggravating it and causing an injury is foolish.

7:52The ability to be able to learn from those mistakes, like I would definitely avoid using the word failure. Like, yes, at the end of the day, you did fail. You didn't achieve what you wanted to achieve. We are not as young as we once were. We have now both got families. running's amazing and I love it and I'm a professional athlete and it's incredible but it's just running like and I think that the ability to be able to have a great session have a shit session have a great race have a shit race but then to be able to go home and be dad again and be part of a family like for me yes I love running and I'm so lucky I get to do what I do but at the same time I sacrifice a lot by the very nature of ultra endurance it's a lot of work it's a lot of time realizing I guess and I guess for me mine's my mindset goes into it sometimes when you're having bad days and yeah you pull yourself out of it because you then have to see the bigger goal but you're like why am I doing this is just I'm just running this is so selfish I'm away from my friends I'm away from my family you feel so bad but actually like for me having been injured in the past, like I am a significantly better person when I've got my fix and my fix is running.

9:12Like it's not having had a, a similar sort of early to mid twenties as you had. Like I liked drinking. I liked going out. And if I train, I can, I still trained, but like I needed a bit of everything in order to do it. Whereas now, like you reassess what you're doing, you still need to do the things that make you, you, and you still can't, you can't sort of just put your life on hold because you've got a family or whatever it is, but things are definitely different. Yeah. And it gives you more motivation areas and it, maybe it takes away from motivation in some areas, but I think like you decide on the person that you want to be and the example that you want to be for your family.

9:53Because actually at the end of the day like my daughter is 15 months old she has absolutely no idea what I'm doing and I really hope when she's a bit old and she understands sort of what mommy and daddy's jobs are that she slightly normalizes it and thinks it's like oh running ultra marathons is just a fairly standard normal thing and she thinks that she can do that there's there's so much what you're saying that I um that I really relate to and for me it has to give you more than just the results you're looking for and I think that when the danger of setting yourself a time target and achieving the time target is that then you just want another time target right it just becomes faster I was having this chat with Stephen Scully in the other day you know because we're working towards a 245 marathon you know we're doing everything to get there so that there's no real surprise when we achieve it and you know you put in the work and you get given the result uh just said you realize when you run a 245 you're just gonna want to go faster and you know so make sure that you're enjoying the process you know that there's those feelings of pride that you feel the satisfaction from the growth you know for me i i drink less alcohol i'm out less often all these things sound a bit boring, but I like it.

11:14To your point, it makes you a better person. It actually makes me a better father. Yeah.

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12:28I like giving things a go. And I think that's how my, when I started running, this wasn't the plan. Like I've fallen into this by myself. Similar to you. Like, I'm sure had you 15 years ago, someone said, oh, in 15 years time, you're going to be doing this, this, this and this. You probably wouldn't believe them. And I think I'm in a very similar boat that I was on a completely different trajectory to where I am today. I started running because I thought it'd be really cool and I want to do the hardest things possible. And it wouldn't even cross my mind to give up. when did you start and i'd love to i'd love to dig in more to you aside from your physiology which is obviously superior to most i'd love to understand how you train how you operate because so far this conversation we've drawn some similarity between each other you're a completely different specimen when it comes to to running you race races to win what does it mean to you now when you when you line up on that start line you know aside from the money being better if you win is it important to you to win still I think three years ago yes my first ultra race was in 2017 that was marathon de Sable and I had some friends who did the race in 2016 and when they got back.

13:49We went to the ship in Wandsworth and yeah, had some pints and bet them that I could finish higher up than they did. That was how it started. A stupid equivalent of a schoolboy bet in a pub. And that must've been in May, June time, 2016. Signed up to Math and DeSable. I had absolutely no money. So I had a road bike. So I sold my road bike to pay for Mountain de Saab entry. Didn't have a coach, didn't have a smartwatch. Just if I had an hour, I'd run as hard as I could for an hour. If I had three hours, I'd do it for three hours. And in the army at this point, go to Mountain de Saab, do some heat training because I heard that was important, but complete, complete amateur.

14:39Went off hard on day one and sort of looked around and I was in the lead and I just thought, this is all right. This isn't that difficult. I sort of feel okay. And realizing that there's days to come and days to come and ended up finishing third at Marathon du Sable, my first ever ultra race. And thinking, I went into it with no outcome expectancy. And then as sort of things carried on and I was sort of proving myself, I was this sort of underdog. I live in the UK where there's no mountains really. I'm not a mountain man. I didn't grow up living at altitude or climbing and cross-country skiing.

15:13that 95 % of my competitors have done. I've sort of fallen into this by mistake. Whereas after winning some big races, after winning Western States, after winning UTMB, there aren't many who have any, there's actually more women than men who have won it, which I think is really interesting. But there is now this real outcome expectancy where people are expecting me to win or be on the podium. And that then sort of, cascade into that's now what I'm feeling. Whereas I sort of worked with my psychologist a lot on it is the reason I started doing this and arguably some of my best ever performances happened at the beginning of my career when I was just there to have fun.

15:58So it's really, it's a really difficult one because I perform my best when I'm having fun, but also at the same time, this is my job. So I need to be professional around it. I need to be good on social media. I should probably have either a podcast or YouTube going at any one time because I want to grow my brand. But that detracts from me having fun. And if I know that I'm more likely to get on the podium or to win races, if I'm having fun, it's almost counterintuitive. It's almost like the less I do and the less professional I am, the better I perform. Therefore, the more professional I am. I can't really remember your initial question, but...

16:40No, it's about how you kind of came to be and you spoke about the Marathon du Sable initially being your first race and how it started as a bet. Mine was also the Marathon du Sable. Yeah, because we spoke before. How did you find it as like a baptism of fire? I loved it. It was the beginning of all of it for me. I signed up to the Marathon du Sable as punishment for like the night before I signed up. I drank like a bottle and a bit of whiskey. I could barely sit straight. My friend came around and just put me to bed. That morning when I got up, signed up to the Marathon de Sable as basically punishment because my brother had done it.

17:17He came like 110th. And I remember the family being really proud of him. And obviously the family were not proud of me at the time. And I was like, maybe I'll just go and tackle this, you know, big race in the Sahara. Went out. I think I weighed like, I probably weighed 90 kilos at the time. I'd packed an 11 kilo bag. It's supposed to be like five. Uh, you know, just like all bulging out. I was like giving stuff away. Who was bulging out? You or your bag? Both. Yeah. I look like a kind of, you know, wrapped ham and you know, in the supermarket that's been left out in the sun. I loved it, mate.

17:47Loved it. I got, you know, not like you, I wasn't, I wasn't up near the front, but I came 69th overall in the whole thing. Um, was really proud of myself, like deeply proud of myself, had these cathartic moments, like really loved it, got faster as time went on, lost a bit of weight like just and I felt similar to you I was like oh maybe I really belong in this kind of you know world not as it is now but like I found that a lot easier than I thought I was going to find it yeah so then I guess going on from that we've swapped roles now you doing your challenges and things where there obviously is an outcome expectancy is it different for you I think it's I'll go back to interviewing you in a sec but this is your time I went into those seven Ironmans having never done an Ironman just thinking well I'll just do them, it doesn't really matter it probably will be really hard but who gives a shit I'll just get on with it and that's just what I did when you attach a nice course to stuff and you've got deep rooted old problems that you're trying to deal with you've got a great big target and the thing can't really stop, you know, like, what are we going to do?

18:56Like, pull the plug in the middle of Cape Town and pack up and go, we're doing it, you know, we're just, we're doing it. It didn't occur to me to quit, you know. Like, I thought at times I might have to, like, lay down for a bit, you know. But, like, it never occurred to me to quit. Had I trained specifically for those Ironmans, I'm sure I would have pulled the plug on loads of the training sessions because, you know, suddenly cycling 180K every three days or two days is something I've never done before, but you just do it. So I don't know. Endurance events and self-publicized endurance events are getting bigger and bigger.

19:36People are doing it for very different reasons, and I think what sets you apart, and I think why you have been so successful in what you're doing is you're not doing it for yourself. And I think for me, that's being a professional athlete, getting out of the mindset that you are doing it for yourself and actually you're not. You're doing it to, because that's all of that fun that you've had and you're doing it to inspire people and you're doing it to show my daughter that we don't quit. We say we're going to do something and then we do it. So I think it's really cool to see you doing what you're doing and you're not doing it for yourself, which I think in today's day and age is actually pretty rare, sadly.

20:21Well, thanks. It's very kind of you to say. But then to put you really on the spot now, why do you care about running a 245 marathon? Because I don't care enormously about the results, to be honest. I like the working to just get better at it. And having a goal is helpful. People will get bored of hearing this who listen to this religiously, but it's that kind of chipping away at a goal over time that I think is quite nice. Like now when I run the same session that I'm running, that I ran six weeks ago, I can see a marked improvement in pulse and pace, right? Like I'll set out to run, you know, a session at the track from, you know, call it two months ago.

21:00and there's like a huge jump in fitness and like that's the really exciting intriguing bit of getting better i i text even yesterday and i just said like i really i really love running like i love what we're doing i've never i've never loved running really like before it's really keeping me on the straight and narrow it's really helping me be occupied outside of work it's giving me like something to be really passionate about outside of my family and and like you know if I hit 244, I'll, I'll aim for a 230 at some point, whatever. Like, you know, but it's not, it's not really for the time. I think that's what was interesting about what you were saying.

21:38It's just getting, getting better and getting faster and being fitter and being stronger. I'm obsessed with runners. I'm obsessed with your ability to run fast. And I want to talk to you about that. I think when you get really under the skin of it and you give yourself to it and you care about it and you nurture the sport and you take it seriously and you are a bit boring with it, you feel deeply rewarded by it. When you run something like the UTMB, you know, great, big, famous race, and you win that, how does that feel? The interesting thing with UTMB is, so I've now done the big loop at UTMB, so the 100-mile race at UTMB four times.

22:20I was third in my first year. I then DNF'd years two and three, and then one in year four. After doing it the first year, I had major knee surgery 11 months beforehand. So didn't, and didn't know if I was going to be doing, didn't really know if I was going to be doing this again. What caused the knee injury? My IT band on my right side is, was shorter than on my left side. Always had knee issues on my right hand side. It's just always happened. So I had surgery about 150 meters away from here. yeah to lengthen my it band and yeah has been touch wood if i've guaranteed the thing that's not going to hurt after race in my knees um which is quite fun so how did it feel after the first year finishing third i sort of thought oh this is not easy but like i thought that i had unwrapped most of it and what are you running this in how how long are you taking it's 20-ish hours just 160k.

23:19Yeah, 175k with 10 ,000 metres of climbing. Starts at 6pm, so you run through the night. So yeah, it's fairly full on. Really hard to even get a spot, right? Yes, it is for the everyday mid-packer. It's become a bit easier now. If you finish top three in any UTMB event, you then get a direct entry into the finals, which is the UTMB in Chamonix. So if you're capable of finishing top three in any event, it's actually quite easy to get into. But if you're not capable of finishing top three in an event, it's actually really difficult to get into. So thankfully, at the moment, a top three into a top three is relatively easy if you pick the right race.

24:03But you could go to one and it's ridiculously stacked and you have an amazing race, you finish fourth and you think, oh, what a waste of time. So yeah, The first year I thought, oh, this is great. I was sort of 95 % of the way there. Next year will be easy. And then next year got overexcited. I was going for the win. Didn't finish. Went too hard. So what happens then? So for you to pull out of the race, it must be relatively extraordinary circumstances. This isn't a case of, oh, shit, I'm not going to win. So I'm going to pull out. The first year I then spent a day in Italian hospital afterwards.

24:39because if things, because I've got the ability to push myself so hard, if things start going wrong, I kind of ignore it and just think, oh, I'll be fine, I'll be fine and just keep cracking on. And then things get bad really quickly. So yeah, I don't think, no, I didn't lose consciousness that year, but yeah, I was in Italian hot at all for the day. Any good? Very expensive. Bloody Brexit. It's made it very expensive. From a mindset standpoint, I was going to win. Like that's why I was there. I was racing it so I could win it. Same happened the year after, fairly similar set of circumstances, going there to win it.

25:21And then last year, went out to Chamonix two months early with friends, family. We had our daughter who was nine weeks old and we were just going to have fun. like we were just going to spend phoebe's first summer in the mountains with our friends and family do all the training have fun yes there's some hard sessions that you think at the time oh this is really hard it's not that fun so i was still on the start line not stressed no pressure nothing being like i've cocked this up for the last two years in a row people aren't really expecting me to have a great race maybe i will maybe i won't but i know that i've done everything I've had such a fun summer that regardless of the result here, it's been incredible.

26:05So you go, I had a race that I was so proud of, but I didn't do anything physically different. It was purely a mindset thing going into it. And then funnily enough, you go to this year and you think, oh, I've now won UTMB. Every start line I'd be on, I need to win. And you end up making, I ended up making some really basic fundamental mistakes. that caused me to pull out of two races this year. Like I'm a bit embarrassed about because that's not who I am. Whereas sort of the mindset that I've got into since that is like, you're doing this for fun. You're not doing this to win races. The more fun you have, the more races you win.

26:43When you went out to do the Marathon de Sables, just backtracking quickly, were you a runner before that? When I was at school, I ran only to keep fit for other sports, to keep fit for rugby basically. And then, yeah, I then got to a point in the army where rocking up on a Monday morning with a black eye from playing rugby was unacceptable. So I thought, oh, I need a new challenge. Oh, I've always been good at running. I'll give that a go. And I was like every school across country I do, I would win. And so I was good from a young age, but I never, my parents are incredibly un-pushy. And there's part of me wishes at points where I wish they were pushy.

27:24they were like, look, you're quite good at rugby, but you're never going to be a professional rugby player. And I wish they had sort of popped that dream early in one way and said, look, you're actually really good at running. Let's give this a go at the age of 12, 13. Let's see where you can get because you're actually really good at it. But I didn't really enjoy it at the time. I was more, I thought that, yeah, being a rugby player was much cooler. But also had I have done that at the age of 13, I wouldn't be doing it now. I don't think. One part of me is sad that I never sort of gave it a real shot when I was younger.

28:02But then the other side of it is like, I'm so glad that I've learned how to climb, sail, ski. Like I've had such an amazing upbringing that like I've tried everything I've got to experience so much rather than just specializing in one sport from such a young age and doing it because you want the podium rather than actually figuring out I really like this and it's really fun and I can make it into a job.

28:31Let's talk about running outside of ultra running. So do you see them as like two different sports? I think it's a really good question. I think there's definitely the limiting factor for performance is different. For a 5K, 10K to a marathon to a certain extent, your VO2 max is your limiting factor. The amount of oxygen your body can use is the limiting factor. Whereas in longer events, VO2 max plays a small part, but it isn't the performance limiter. I like running, similar to you. I like doing different running challenges, whether it's on the road, cross country, in the mountains. And I am now of an age where if I wanted to be good on the road again, I would need to fully, fully focus on it.

29:28But also at the end of the day, like running is, I think we can overcomplicate it as much as we want. But at the end of the day, regardless of whether you're doing a hundred meters or a hundred miles, your goal is to get from the start line to the finish line as quickly as possible. running is running like when you're a kid you just like you run it doesn't matter you sometimes don't know where the finish line is and you just run because you're having fun and you enjoy it so like yes there's obviously the ways in which people train is different whether you're a sprinter or you're a marathoner or you're an ultra marathoner but i think the where running is so beautiful i I think what we're seeing now is people have done sort of the couch to 5k.

30:13They've then done lots of park runs. They've then done a 10k, a half marathon, a marathon. And then they think, oh, what should I do next? And you either go time orientated and you think, I want to run a bit faster or you go distance orientated. I want to run a bit longer. And I think that's why we're seeing this real trail running, ultra running boom at the moment because people have done marathons and they now want another challenge and they sort of think, oh, actually, I don't want to be confined by my watch. And I think it's so nice that if you did an ultramarathon on the weekend and you had a normal job, the first question that your mates will ask you isn't, how long did it take you?

30:55And if it's a marathon, that's typically the first question. Oh, what time did you run? And John from the office ran five minutes quicker. So you think, oh, it's that. But it's like, oh, how was it? is what people tend to ask. So I think that's why it's growing so much. So like people are doing it for the love of it rather than chasing a time and things. So like, do I think the athletes are different? Yes, to a certain extent, but also at the end of the day, like, yeah, we're all just trying to get to the finish line as quickly as possible. I see them as pretty different. I see the kind of ultras as adventures, experiences, like stuff that you can really kind of take in.

31:34and um i see the road stuff as recently as more data driven sciencey kind of split an amateur like i'll run a marathon and i'll i'll split the marathon into eight and a half you know five k's i'll be completely aware of my pulse and my pace and you know whereas like i've never ever done that in an ultra whereas i would do that in an ultra you would yeah yeah well you're you're a professional i think as because as trail running and ultra running isn't because it's not professional professional whereas mass running is i think had you if you were to rewind marathoning 15 20 years i think it'd be in exactly the same place as where trail running is now and you take another endurance ultra endurance they're like ironman triathlon 15 20 years ago people wouldn't worry about oh what's my swim speed over they just complete it take you just you're doing it to do it as quickly as possible but you're not refining small details i think once you've built this huge aerobic base that ultra running basically is your ability to be able to run under your first threshold for as fast as possible you can then start to look for the marginal gains and i think there are definitely times where i've taken it way too far on the data side and have forgotten the joy and for the love of it but from a pacing standpoint it's still really i think it's really important not to not necessarily so you go fast enough but actually the other way around just so you don't go too fast knowing that I am better in the second half of a race and my coach guy called Scott Johnson has a saying of if you want to finish first first you have to finish and I think that's like it's so true in ultra running like it doesn't matter who gets the top of the first climb first it matters who gets to the finish line first if you're racing yeah what's your marathon pb it i have a marathon pb but it's not quick 226 well i mean it's pretty quick yeah but it's i've run a 63 half marathon that's that's pretty leery isn't it 63 minute half yeah bloody hell you're only four minutes slower than aminal yeah four minutes is quite a long time well it's quite a long time but i mean you know you're you're in you're in and around yeah elite marathoners i'm one of few athletes who, few ultra endurance athletes who have also mixed it up on the road and cross country.

33:58Not many people conflict between trail running and ultra running and then four months later qualify for the half marathon world championships. So hang on, if you're running a 63 minute half, is that quite recent? In COVID. What do you think you could run the marathon in? Like on a good day if stars aligns and things were good. I was planning on doing Valencia last year. It didn't work out. Basically, I stopped enjoying it. What time would you aim for and be proud of? 209. Really? Yeah. Really? Yeah. That's like, that's Olympic standard. It would have been a few years ago, but probably not anymore.

34:35That's insane. Like, do you reckon you've got a 209 in your locker, like, kicking around somewhere, like, soon? Do you have a 215 in you, like, whenever? Yeah. Really? You're a beast, mate, honestly. I say, yeah, I think on the right day, I think I'd need a couple of days to freshen up and maybe do a little bit of specific training. Excuse my naivety. I didn't actually realize that you were like that dynamite on the road. I thought you were like an extremely high end, like super long distance ultra runner who wins everything. I didn't realize you had like nearly like that marathon time in your locker.

35:11That's mad. So yeah, part of me would like to do it and I nearly did do Valencia. There were talks about a fun project at London Marathon next year, but I think it's fallen through of sort of an ultra challenge because London Marathon is over two days, to have a combined time to do a marathon on the Saturday and on the Sunday. I like that. It's fallen through. It was someone who we spoke about off air promised this was going to happen and three days later, it's like, oh, no, it's not happening anymore. Can we not just get like an entry for both days and just do it anyway? I'm not sure you could under your own name, but maybe under an alias you could do on both days.

35:55What would your alias be? Oh, I'm not sure. They say the last thing you ate and then the last hotel you slept in is your stripper name. I thought it was your mum's maiden name and your first pet. It could be. But the last thing I ate would be like Farmer J and the last hotel I stayed in would be Farmer J Grove. It's all right, isn't it? That's not a terrible name. I get excited by the marathon questions purely because I am in that at the moment. 209, mate. That's Stephen Scullion territory. Yeah, but saying that you could do it and doing it sometimes are two different things. I don't think I've ever met anyone who runs a 226 who just thinks that that's bollocks.

36:40like 226 is sweet i'd take that it wasn't good i did it it was it was three weeks after 100k race in frankfurt it was really cool to do i'm really glad that i did it but i went out at a great pace and just completely blew my doors off but no it was like it was fun i would i would like to do it i would like to do another one but when you're a professional trail runner i can't say okay cool I'm going to take a year and not run on the trails and now focus on the road. Is that how long you think it would take you to prepare properly for an absolute belter? Yeah, I think I'd want six months. I'd want a minimum of six months.

37:20And I think with that, you could get a good time. But I think if you're going to put six months into it, you might as well put 12 months into it. 10K time? Not actually ever run a 10K. That's why I've got my bike up out there. Yeah, it's interesting. you think I'm gonna go to the toilet on myself I think you're gonna make a mess you're gonna make a mess you said earlier when you saw that bicarb that Petros gave me that there's a 99 % chance that I will shit myself I mean I can't say I'm loving those odds well and like I said when you asked me about it and I asked have you ever tried it before and the answer was no.

38:06And I said, oh, the old saying of never try something new on race day. I think it probably would be useful to try it beforehand in a session, even if it's just tomorrow. And I mean, you don't have the best history. Do you want to tell the creatine story? I was accidentally taking like 40 grams of creatine a day instead of six. That must have gone well. I was literally almost permanently on the loop. How jacked were you though? I had some water attached. Were you just water? I looked pretty ripped, to be fair. I was quite big but yeah no it was quite full on but like not to be too graphic obviously but I was I did have the runs quite badly and it was like I couldn't quite tell where the water was coming from like I'd go to the toilet in the morning all water and I'd be like okay and then like I'd go downstairs again take the kids to school have to go to the loo in the school again and I'd be like where's this coming from and it turns out it's like a lot of water retention yeah I have a few questions Why did you think 40g Because I got I got tablespoon And teaspoon mixed up So it's one Heaped teaspoon And I was doing one heaped tablespoon Which is quite a lot more It turns out So you think I'll have a similar issue with Yes but I don't think it'll be water I don't think that'll be your issue Bike up But Petros was like, you want to get some bicarbonate, mate.

39:32He was like, you'll be like a panther, just like ripping around Battersea Park, is what he was saying. Yeah, I think this episode will come out after your Battersea Park escapade. 25 pills, I've noticed, is what I would need to take. It feels a lot. Yeah, that does. I don't really want 25 grams of it coursing around. It just would be rattling going around. I think if you don't try, you don't know. But also at the same time, I think it's not going to magically take you from a 35? 35? I'll take that. 36.50 I'm aiming for, thank you. It's not going to take you from a 36.50 to a 34 minutes. Well, no.

40:16I mean, I wouldn't expect it to shave nearly three minutes off my time. So what are you expecting from it? Well, I don't know. I'm hoping for like maybe 20, 30 seconds. I'm hoping for just like, you know. Is the risk worth the reward? If I could take it and just get a 3650, I'd be really happy. But the thing is, I can probably run that anyway. So, you know, who knows if the benefits of the bike app will even be a factor. I think you wait till next week and then use it in training. Do you have any metric of, you know, I'm very comfortable at this running pace for this time, so this is where you should be do you have a secret formula for me I would probably take your 5k time 3.35 average but I can go much faster than that call it 3.30 average I couldn't breathe I'd been boozing the night before but then I would probably then add 4 seconds 4 or 5 seconds per k 4 or 5 seconds per k yeah that's exactly what I'm looking at so 5k pb is 335 average yeah i reckon i can run a 330 average 1730 i'm currently 1755 ish but like as i said come off the back of a like lovely holiday i wasn't really looking forward to that as a race yeah i've not drank in over a month like i'm good to go like i'm i'm all systems go feel like a peregrine falcon you know i'm good 330 to 335 is roughly where the 5k is and i was going to try and just run this at 340s yeah i think that's a i think it's a that's a good idea and then if you are feeling good at 7k you can pick it up a little bit turn on the jets yeah exactly get the panther moving lovely the puma what shoes are you gonna wear puma fast stars okay i like calling them puma i like obviously i know that you're supposed to say puma i think but I just like a Puma I think it's like Puma feels like it's going to be fast yeah I love a fast star do you like a fast star?

42:24never what are you who are you sponsored by? Essex ah of course yeah very trendy shoes these are very would you go to London Fashion Week in these? um I could go to it but I'm not sure I'd be let in anywhere and what is your 5k PB? what do you reckon? well you said you're not proud of it so it's probably no no 5k I'm more proud of my 5k PB than anything else Oh, what? Anything else? Well, of... In your whole career? Well, no, but I think it's up there with one of my best performances. Oh, you said I'd be happy? I think I said you'd be impressed. Oh, God, I thought you meant I'd be happy because, like, maybe I'm somewhere near it.

43:01Well, no, no, you're not. You will be a... Is it in the 13s? Yeah. Is it? God, fucking hell. Really? It's quite high up in the 13s. Is it 1343? I think it's 1342. Not a bad guess. That's crazy. It might actually be 43. Anyway. Give or take. I swear on my children's lives, not that I need to do this, that that was just a random guess. That is a random guess. Not bad. You did say that it was kind of high, but... Yes, I think it's 13.42. That's good going, brother. I think it's fairly decent. What's that an average pace of? Do you know? 2.43, 44. Like it's just, it's sick shit. It's sick shit. I genuinely, I don't think I could hold that for 400 meters.

43:51And I'm not unfit, you know? I'd reckon a few people would look at me as a good runner. I don't think I'm holding that for one lap. But I think it'd be really cool if, because people see these athletes running and think, oh, they don't look that fast. I think before, the week before an Olympics or a world championship, you should get a group of amateurs who are pretty decent. I'm calling you an amateur, for example. Thank you. Because you are a really good runner, but to go on the track and be like, this is what a good runner does, and then this is what the pros do. Because I think it'd be so interesting because it's so, it is so different.

44:38But people always say, like, I watch the Winter Olympics and I look at the bobson and I think, I reckon I could give that a go but you would just be so far off it you could not get anywhere near to it but me being so naive I think I could have a couple of weeks of training you'd have loved the TV show The Jump that's where I met my wife and we did like Skeleton Bobsleigh and all kinds of stuff and you think how hard could it be? well it's not that hard didn't someone get really injured on that? yeah all kinds of people get injured Ben Cohen like broke his shoulder and Gareth Thomas like pushed me off this corner when we were like really gunning for it on skis and I just flew into the safety net and dislocated both my shoulders.

45:21I went on to win the show. Not that race though, obviously. I was out of that race. Which has been your funnest TV thing to do? I really enjoyed MasterChef. I like learning stuff. Yeah. So I like learning. I got quite good at cooking obviously for MasterChef. What did you learn in Made in Chelsea? Not much. That used to be our Monday night. Did you like it? Yeah. Did you really? In the army. Well, honestly, we would sit down on a Monday night and we'd all watch it together. The army would watch it? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. In the office next, we'd be watching it. That's so funny. There's sort of fairly early days.

45:51I literally can't believe that. Because I think it's still on now, but I've not watched. I was sort of... No reason to watch it anymore. No. Yeah, sort of you, Jamie Lange, that sort of era. Mate, that's hilarity. But yeah, we used to absolutely love it. That's so funny. Yeah. Honestly, that's really funny. It was our, yeah, every Monday night. 13.42. Yeah. There you are. I don't know what's more surprising. The sprinkling of Made in Chelsea. What's more surprising? The fact that you watch Made in Chelsea, I think. But 13.42 is a beast. That is, that is, we need to have a leaderboard in here. We should have a leaderboard in here for people's 5K times and marathon times stuff.

46:28You'd be right up there, mate. But I know I... Bucci, 13.06. Yeah.

46:36Amanal 1320 something, I think he said. There's a few 13s we've had on the show, which is astounding. I think you should have a treadmill in here or just outside and it's a kilometre. Who can run the fastest kilometre and they have a leaderboard for that. Done. That'd be so cool. We love it. We love it. I reckon I'd do all right on a 1K treadmill. I could probably whack up the pace to Saoay marathon pace for 1K on a treadmill. Not in real life, obviously. Yeah. Treadmill's kind of cheating. And what are you wearing? You're wearing your huge shoes. That's Jamie Lang stuff, the treadmill. Jamie will run like a 19 minute 5K on a treadmill and then like post about running a 19 minute 5K.

47:17And it's like, no, mate, I can run a fucking 1630 on a treadmill. Do you know what I mean? Is there any distance in which Jamie would beat you? The very short stuff. Probably he'd beat me over 100, beat me over 200. I don't think he'd beat me over 400. although that would be a race 800 no chance and anything above that no chance so he's fast though he's fast but like he's not he's not a um he's not really a runner like he hits the treadmill for 15 minutes in the gym but like he's fast like his legs move well he used to sprint he was uh you know he'll tell you and you know god knows if it's true that he was uh like under england's like under 16 sprinter or whatever.

48:02He is quite fast. He is also now like 39 and hasn't played school level sport for 20 odd years. I'd like to see you turn a 400. I think that would make a good TV show. I think he and I at the 400 would probably have an okay race because I'm not like mentally quick over like four. I could probably run like a 60 second 400. Maybe. I think that's quick. It's quite quick. Maybe. Just to be clear, I haven't run that. I would say there's absolutely 0 % chance that you're running a 60 second 400 metre. Do you know what I think? One? Not a chance. One lap? No, not a chance. I can run like 15 76ers in a row with like 60 seconds off.

48:45So I've got plenty in the tank. You've got 16 seconds. Yeah, but it's one lap. If a tiger were chasing me or a puma, I reckon I'd get round in 60 seconds. Or a Jamie Lang. I think if Jamie was ahead of me, I would match his pace if he's faster than me, just purely out of rage. I'd like to see it. Hey, listen, so would I. Beautiful stuff. Thanks for coming in, brother. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

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