Ashley Cain: Hard Hitting Lessons From Warzones, Using Pain For Strength & Surviving Grief

0:01Today, I'm sitting down with Ashley Cain, former professional athlete, reality star, and now a man on a mission. From the highest highs to unimaginable loss, this is the raw, powerful story of how pain became purpose. This is Untapped with me, Spencer Matthews, where we learn and get inspired to untap our potential from the best athletes in the world. If you haven't subscribed to the show already, then please do. Your support helps us grow the show. If you've already subscribed, then thank you so much. It absolutely means the world to me. Without further ado, let's get Untappd with Ashley Cain.

0:35Ashley Cain. Spencer Matthews. Welcome to Untappd, brother. Thank you for having me. We've not seen each other in a while. Mate, a lot's changed. It's funny. I love the idea of this conversation because honestly, we spent a bit of time together making a television show eight years ago. I think it was. and we've seen each other once I think since but I've been following your progress and I've been keeping up to date on and donating towards your challenges and I have to say you really inspired me to get out and do stuff as well I think millions of people were really taken by what happened to you and were moved emotionally by your loss that you suffered You're a professional football player, turned reality TV star, turned endurance athlete.

1:27And now you're creating documentaries for the BBC, going to some of the world's most dangerous places. It's all so cool. It is pretty cool. Who'd have thought it? I mean, as you start that conversation, like I say back, it's not only quite funny looking at you from across the mics, but it's quite inspiring. And for me, it made me feel proud because I've seen two people, you know, at the time when we first met, who didn't really know who they were or where they were going. and where we're starting to end up is a pretty great place for both of us considering where we started. So I just wanted to say that first.

2:00But yeah, God, there's been a lot of adversity over the years, Spencer, you know, even from being a kid and to think what I've achieved now and all the things I'm doing is pretty cool. It signifies progress and it signifies change. You know, I think when we, you know, lost touch and you became a father and for your daughter to fall ill in the way that she did, it was completely gut-wrenching. And it was actually, you know, knowing you as well made it even more palpable. And, you know, I have kids as well now, three children. And I think of you sometimes, you know, even though we haven't seen each other much.

2:40And I think of what you've gone through. And, you know, as I said, I was really moved by your challenges. You know, you ran 109 miles, you said. Yeah. in a single stint to London. That was for Azalea? Yeah. Initially? Everything they've done, challenge-wise, they've been for Azalea. I don't want to dwell in the loss, but it's something you speak so beautifully about. And you're moved and you move people. I can remember feeling, firstly, really sad for you, being in that position, having to fight for your daughter's life in that kind of public way, but then was incredibly moved by the response to it.

3:28I followed it and looked at it, and I just couldn't believe what I was seeing almost. It was this incredible display of compassion from humanity, from just strangers wanting to do something beautiful and powerful for you and your family. and you know how did that feel at the time

3:57how did it feel I mean look Spence you know you go from being I'm going to take it back you go from being a professional athlete yeah to losing your career due to injury to feeling lost you know in life due to pursuing many different careers and hustling and losing your way in a huge part of your life. I've been through so much adversity in my life, Sven, for being a kid, going through school, being in football, and then even later on to have to do what I needed to do to get by, to survive. I wasn't blessed with opportunity or finances or people around me that could just taking me to a certain place.

4:42I had a lot of hardship. And then all I wanted was to be enough of a man to be able to provide a lovely home and a future for a family. And I got to that point, you know, I was on the way there and I had my beautiful daughter, Azalea, during COVID, which was already a pretty tormenting time for most. To find out two months in that she had cancer. My life on that day, bang, just changed. I moved into hospital the same day that I found out and I was there for the next six months, not being able to see family, not being able to see friends, not being able to go to the shop, not being able to do anything outside that room.

5:24And

5:31when I say it's the lowest point that a human being can actually feel, the most pain a human being can actually feel, the most trauma that a human being can actually feel, it's an absolute understatement. Because, do you know what the worst part of it is, Spence? It's everyone telling you that your daughter's illness is critical and the chances of her survival are slim and you're living in this room and you're looking outside the room and you see poorly child after poorly child after poorly child and the next day you might see one less and one less again and you look back in your room and you've got the most beautiful magnificent special little girl looking back at you smiling not understanding and not realising the illness that she's got.

6:26Not being able to comprehend that it's tearing her body apart and eventually going to take her life away. And that broke my heart, Spence. And in those moments, when I had to look at her in that room for the first time, when I seen the extent of her battle and her fight and what she was up against, I decided from that moment that she was never ever going to see me upset I decided in that moment that all she was going to see Was her daddy's smile Was her daddy happy Was her daddy full of life and full of energy Because she couldn't understand what I was saying But she could definitely pick up on how I was feeling Because babies are sensory beings And because I couldn't speak to my friends or family, Spence What I decided to do was communicate online about the most inspiring person I'd ever met, my hero.

7:22I did it in the first place, Spence, because after a few days, I started to become a vote. How brave, how courageous, how that even through her darkness, she could give me my lightest days. How through my pain she could make me feel loved. How through my anger she could make me feel peace and calm. and out of her struggle, how she could give me strength. Because I relied in her for hope and belief. So at the time spent, I just wanted to showcase that to the world. And it was really strange how you said that, you know, it was an amazing reflection of humanity. It absolutely was. What it was an amazing reflection of was a special little girl who showed more courage, more strength, more power than I'd ever seen.

8:13and we were supported through that. I was getting messages from people that were saying that they were about to... When I was saying it, Spence, at the time I was getting thousands of messages a day. Imagine opening your inbox that people, I was going to commit suicide yesterday but when I seen your beautiful daughter's fight it made me want to fight for my kids. I was going to break yesterday with my fight with cancer. I was going to give up and when I seen your daughter fighting she just gave me strength. you know and I kept seeing this pattern and I've never had a hero I've never had a role model I've never had anyone to look up to but when I seen the profound effect that my daughter's had on seemingly everybody that's seen her face and her fight that made me want to be a better person and when the time eventually comes Spence where you know I had to take her home doctor saying there's nothing else you can do and I had to take the most important magnificent thing that I have ever held loved or dreamed of in the world home to pass away and counted her last breaths in my arms from that moment on I knew with full clarity who I wanted to be and what I needed to do going forward and if I could be a mere smidge of what my daughter was and have that kind of effect on people from around the world.

9:41I want her in her legacy. I want her in her name. And I'm worthy of having two feet on this earth. So it was a lot about the amazing support that we got, which I'll be forever and eternally grateful for. But it's more about what I've seen was the effect that she had on people to make me understand what effect I need to have in this world going forward. Firstly, I'm so sorry, man. It's just, it's just, I actually just feels so unfair, doesn't it? And it's just, it's just not. I'm sad, mate. It's not a human, it's not something that parents should ever have to feel. Spence, I had to stand and write.

10:24I didn't even have to stand and write. I had to write a eulogy, mate. Imagine writing a eulogy to speak on your daughter's day. imagine that this last month spends I've been in a really bad place because I've been running away from something for four years and that was placing a headstone down and had to write the words to put on it I had to put it down and had to do it the day before anniversary then I had to feel the pain of the four years that I've been without and then I had to also go through the fact that this year has been a lot different to other years where it's been the first year because of being so busy with work and having my two sons that haven't had the time to do a challenge to honour her this year and it hit me harder than I ever dreamed or ever believed it could have done.

11:10So it's tough Spence, you know, it's heartbreaking and I can honestly say even having my beautiful two sons who I love more than anything in this world, they still don't ease that pain because every stage that they go through now, I either think that's what Azalea was doing or she never got the chance to do that. So it doesn't take away that pain. So it's just vitally and crucially important for me to channel that pain in the most productive and positive and powerful way that I can. Most women have been there. Something feels off. You don't feel like yourself, yet your doctor says everything looks fine.

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13:36You have Jesus tattooed on your arm. Did you lose faith at this time? I think it brought me closer, especially since losing her. And the reason being, a lot of people ask me the same question, and a lot of people, after certain incidents like this, lose faith. There's one thing that's a bit different to losing a child to losing someone else in your life, though. You know, there is...

14:09There's zero closure. you're always expecting to lose people around you in your life. Does it make it right? Does it mean that the situation that you lost on Monday is fair? But you're always kind of expecting it. But there is no justice in losing a child. That means that when you've lost that child, and especially in my case, if I didn't continue to believe in God, if I didn't continue to believe in Jesus Christ in heaven, I absolutely would not be standing where I'm standing now because that would mean there is no chance that she's in paradise now and there's no chance that if I work really hard at being a good person, doing good things and putting more back into the world and I take from it that I'll ever get to see her again.

14:57So for hope and the fact that I want my daughter to be in the best place that she can be, it brought my faith stronger and closer to me. And that's why I started doing what I was doing in the hope that maybe I'll see her again. In the hope that I'm honouring her legacy, in the hope that I'll make her proud. Because there is a large part of my life, Spence, where I feel like I'm still spending time with her and she can see me and I can still communicate with her. And that's all hope. That's all belief. It's not a tangible thing, but it's good enough for me to continue living with great values in my life, you know.

15:35Talk me through how the loss has helped shape your drive and your ambition. You know, you've achieved some incredible athletic feats. Not only did you used to be a professional athlete on the football pitch, but you've entered this world of endurance that I love. And I don't mean to keep telling you that you inspired me, but, you know, watching you complete your Ultraman and watching you run those 109 miles and, you know, your Yukon 1000 kayak. And, you know, I felt that because I knew you and I felt that because of how we were, that, you know, oh, wow, maybe I can do something like that. You know, maybe I can reach out from behind the bar and pull myself into a better space.

16:25and you know I know from my own experiences of having my brother on my shoulder when I'm you know in difficult times how Azalea might help you in difficult times but I'd love you to tell me firsthand just exactly you know what you feel in those rough dark moments when the body wants to give up but you know you can't yeah you know Tell me. We're both smiling as well. Obviously, this is a podcast. You can watch the full visual episode on YouTube. But if you're listening, Ashley's got this massive grin on his face. Because we both love it so much. I think it's great. I think, I guess for me, Spence, number one, I made a promise.

17:11You know, there's many people around the world who are going to know a name and I was going to take around the world with daddy power. But also, Spence, you know, when it's my daughter's birthday, have to go to a resting place. And I want to get a presence. And I want to get gifts. And I want to take her places. And I can't. Do you know what I mean? I also really, really want to make her proud. And I want her to know that at any given point that she had the opportunity to look down, She knows how much she means to me. So for that reason, it is not acceptable for me to quit. It is not acceptable for me to stop.

18:00And it's not acceptable for me to feel that my burden is too much because I will always be able to bear the weight of the cross for her. So for that reason and that reason alone, there will never be a moment that I will stop. I will always push through or in an unfortunate eventuality, which I don't feel like will ever be the case, I will die trying. And that's nearly happened a few times. But also in suspense, yeah, it's the only time when I can really relate to being with her. And what I mean by that is, you know, with my two sons now, the only times I've had with them have been beautiful times, good times, fun times.

18:39so when we are doing beautiful fun and good things that's all I want it to ever be that's how I know my kids that's how I want my kids to forever live their life or remember their daddy all I had with my daughter was sheer pain and sheer trauma and being scared and being angry and and feeling a feeling that I cannot explain to another human being but in that was 100 % the most beautiful the most powerful and the greatest time of my life so when I do these challenges and the reason why I've got bigger and probably more dangerous each time is because I have to conquer more of the world number one but mainly number two because when I am 71 days in and I'm in a sea, which is the worst conditions the sea has been for 15 years and I'm thousands of miles down, stress fractured in, tears later, broken heart, broken mind, broken soul, broken spirit.

19:48I'm surrounded by orcas. I'm nearly drowning. I'm fighting to get back in my boat because the safety ribs had to go because it won't get in. In that moment, And a split second, I look up and I'm like, ah, how you doing, babe? I can see you. I'm going to be all right. And from that moment when I realized that, everything's cool. We keep flowing then. That's when I'm in my rhythm. I could be that far gone and feeling like I cannot complete the day to like, whoa, everything is so smooth because I'm like, yo, I recognize this pain. I recognize being scared. I recognize this trauma. and in that, then I start speaking to her and I know she's with me.

20:28I'm like, yeah, I'm going to be all right. Because I know she's going to protect me and I know that she won't let me go until my time is there. And even if there was a chance that I did go, I'm not really that bothered because I know that I'm going to see her. And so everything becomes calm. In that moment of utter chaos is where I'll become at my most peace. It's funny that you describe it that way. I know what you mean. Like I've not lost one of my children, thankfully. but I do I relate to what you're saying you know what drives you because I mean look right I was going to speak to you about it you know he was 30 wasn't it in the Jordanian Desert 30 marathons 30 days Jordanian Desert world record yeah some feet of athletic performance thank you incredible you know what kept you getting up being regimented and pushing through not only just to complete it but your level of performance throughout was so disciplined and that must have been hard in itself we were helping children mostly um so the cause that that we chose or sorry that i chose um for that particular event was globals make some noise it supports about 100 small charities throughout the uk and and to be honest you know we probably don't know each other as well as we could at this stage, but I, in my life, I have certainly felt like I lack empathy sometimes, just generally.

21:54I'm not sure what that is. I obviously lost my brother at a young age and felt like, you know, the world was quite heavy on my shoulders and that not much worse could happen. And, you know, so I had this, these, these opinions that, you know, I lacked, I lacked empathy, long story short. And, and I knew that when I met some of the causes before going out to Jordan. And I think this is the first time I've said that. I didn't honestly think that it would move me in the way that it did, in the way that your story did, right? Because that almost felt a bit more personal because I know you. But I met kids, some of whom were terminal, and I genuinely, it made me very angry and upset to meet these children and to know exactly what you were describing before, that they they seem happy, but they're going to die young.

22:49Their life is going to, you know, they're not going to have much of a life. And other children as well that, you know, were physically disabled or had mental illnesses and just kids who don't have the life that my kids have, say, you know, a nice, comfortable, lovely life. And I just felt that it was really unfair that these kids would never get to have a nice childhood or a nice life. And it made me really sad and it made me quite angry. I wasn't, you know, and we channeled a lot of that. Like, obviously, the pain that I felt in the desert was, you know, at the very most, 30 days, temporary thing, to your point.

23:30I can get up and I can get the job done because I'm never going to quit. you know if i break my leg i'll hobble i'll hop the marathons you know being bitten by a deadly snake would take me out the race something like that but aside from that i'm i'm i'm in you know i don't give a shit about anything that's going to get in my way same as you and was your brother of course yeah but you know but in this particular instance because i was 10 when my brother died i'm 36 now in fact he was uh he died exactly 26 years ago yesterday and um or whenever the 13th of may was. We're the 15th two days ago. And so that was a bit of a day in our family and stuff.

24:07But you know, my brother was 22. He was an incredibly strong man, you know, very adventurous, very brave. Youngest Brit to climb Everest at the time. I've been to Everest, as you know, looking for his body and, you know, to walk through the Khumbu Icefall in the middle of the night with your head torch on age 22 in 1999, right before the kit was proper kit. That takes guts, balls. That is, you know, the men and women that do that. I was stood there watching them go through that thinking, you know, there's no control there. We, to some degree, can control certain elements of our races. Ever if something falls on you, you're dead.

24:49That's that. You know, you get caught in an avalanche, you're dead. You know, your oxygen stops working, you're dead. So, you know, it's a brave thing so obviously i carry my brother with me in any difficult situation but in this particular race it was more about those kids that i met and these other charities that we were raising money for just because of the unjust nature of it you know nobody nobody forced my brother to go and climb everest us as a family knew that it's risky you know the fact that he lost his life is is will always be a tremendous shame but it's not you know he he paid for that service he went to everest he did something that was very dangerous and it cost him his life.

25:26Can I ask you a question, right? I'm not talking about right now on this day, around this point right now. Could you say that you're probably around the best you've ever felt as a human? Yeah, I'd say so. And I would share the same feeling. And that's always been one of the most motivating things for me. The reason being is you decided to go through your pain for someone else. The reason why I go through my pain now is for someone else or others, you know. And that for me has not only made me feel worthy and slightly proud of the man I've become, but it's the reason why I'm actually still here today.

26:16And to look at the situation opposite from you and why what I do is so important and the reason why I am open, I am honest and I'm transparent about my journey, not the good parts, but the bad parts, the painful parts, the shameful parts too, is because if I could see you 10 years ago and you could see me and we could see each other how we were, to think that we would be here now doing this, honoring people, achieving things we never thought we could and saving lives in the process. That shows that anybody out there who is struggling for purpose or is struggling with self-belief or is just struggling with life has what it takes to become better and have an influence in the world, which not only will cause them to want to survive, but will lead to them thriving as well.

27:05That is the important message of why I wanted to come here today and talk to you because it's really fucking legit. And because you used to be a fucking absolute prick as well.

27:22I've often said well firstly thank you not for the prick comment but the rest of it was very nice I firstly I wholeheartedly agree with you you know I said that and we don't need to dwell on my achievements because I want to speak to you but you know crossing the finish line of the 30th marathon in Jordan right changed a lot of my perceptions of plenty of things. A lot of self-loathing turned into profound feelings of pride. Literally, those feelings that I did it. I've done it. It was overwhelming, the sense of relief that you did not for anyone or to prove the people that said it was impossible, wrong, or any of that shit.

28:12it's just you've done it right you've achieved the seemingly unachievable and you'll always have it right and it's kind of like you're going from days where I mean mate I used to you know this I used to drink in the morning I used to do nothing all day sometimes you know I would go from TV show to TV show and in my down time I would do fuck what I'd get drunk all the time and I lived this kind of existence where it was you know a little part of you is like oh I'm a TV star so that's cool but the rest of it is just like you feel horrendous I'm not achieving anything really like people pick up your show and they put it down and they move on to the fucking next thing and like you're a nobody like you're not you have no real worth and I'm not suggesting that TV stars don't have worth I just felt like I had no worth I had no worth and it was just all a bit you know super successful dad super successful brother.

29:13Really superficial with absolute zero substance. Yeah. And I just, and I just, you know, had a terrible relationship with alcohol and just, you know, this, this, these endurance events have really helped me not change, but prove to myself that I am the person I always thought that I was.

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31:25It goes back to that point of emptiness. I can safely say, even though the last really really significant painful thing that happened, it's categorically the worst thing ever. However, there's been no trauma that I have faced or no adversity that I have faced that haven't become better at the other side of it. So that suggests something, doesn't it? It's like you're saying, you know, let's just condense it to the pain of going through those 30 days. The other side of it, you were better than you were before because you enjoyed it. You learned from it. It forged a stronger, more educated, more fulfilled and more confident person that believed in themselves and went through something to be able to advise others, to be able to have more of a place where you stand.

32:23When I lost my daughter, not only did I relinquish my businesses when I was in hospital because I couldn't run anything apart from being focused on her. That meant that when I left hospital, you know, I didn't have those. I couldn't even see colour when I lost her. I seen greyscale for a while. But actually? Greyscale. Is that a thing? Well, it was for me. So it's like... It was like everything was greyscale. Everything was slow. It was like, it was like our physical effects of that trauma. I actually embarrassingly went into a panic. When the medics came, because when we felt like she was going to go, we called the emergency team, not to revive her, but because we knew that that was the outcome.

33:14They had to be there. I ended up being the one that needed medical support because I went into, I literally broke down, right? So it had physical effects on my body. And where was my work going to come from? I was going to pop out and do a show the next day, whatever. I had no work, man. I couldn't afford to put the roof over my head. I couldn't afford to put food on the table. Had no future of work or anything. And I'll be completely honest, I did not want to take jobs where I was selling out. I did not want to use my platform to just make money if I wasn't doing something to give back or have impact or to change people's lives or save people's lives.

33:58I went through a really tough time. And the only thing I had, I'd lost everything. The only thing that I had at that point in my life was the reflection of the man that was looking at himself in the mirror. And if I'd done what I could do that day to be better, if I'd been an honourable man that day, if I'd been somebody that can create a bright future, not only for a legacy, for other people and for my family, if I made a contribution, that's what I needed that night to sleep. if I hadn't what the fuck was I doing so so that kept you alive you reckon yeah you know you know you know you think about it I used to sit there and you know you know this from being a drinker and I I was a drinker too I couldn't drink you know I still have a drink now you know what I mean but you can lie to everyone around you you know if you did by yourself you know I didn't have a drink last night you could have been fucking shit-faced.

34:57Ah, I didn't do this, or I went to the gym today, or I'm not this kind of person, or whatever. You can pretty much convince everyone else around you whatever you want to, you know, unless you're physically showing them otherwise.

35:11Because my daughter was watching over me now, I couldn't lie to her. It was impossible. And then, because I knew that I couldn't lie to her, I was like, you know what, yeah, I also actually cannot lie to myself anymore. It's absolutely fucking pointless. It's a massive point you're making, by the way. Who do I need to be? And another incredible thing, which I don't know why I realized, but I did realize is, I had to sit down with all the people around me that I loved and cared about and had to kind of be open about the things I'd done before, the things I was doing now, which were really sad and really embarrassing and really shameful.

35:54Because I was like, I need to really go down to the base here. I'm already at the base of how I can feel there. I need to really go down to the base here as well because I need to know to the full extent, like if you're building a house, you need to build from the foundation. I need to know from the full extent what I need to do to regain trust, regain belief, regain that ability to lead a team, lead a family, be loved by a family, provide for a family. so I was kind of open and honest about everything I was going through because I knew everyone was worried about me I knew everybody didn't know what my future was going to be or what I was going to do because they know what kind of person I am so I had to just lay it all down on the table and then and only then I was like fuck me I've got some work to do to get back from this it's very it's Being honest with yourself is incredibly important.

36:50It's hard. Anyone can lie. And it's, again, you know, I really feel like we have a lot of similar views. We've been through, you know, some similar things that I feel, you know. And it's like when I first did my long stint of total abstinence, I could sneak a beer here or there and just lie to everyone about it. No problem. But what is the point of doing that? You're not being honest with yourself. When we were in Jordan, I had a similar realization to you. You know, I make all right money. Don't love a lot of the things that I do. Don't really love how it looks and how it makes me feel. So I'm going to start again.

37:32You know, that's where this show was born. I left three other shows to build this with the exact same realization as you. I wanted to hopefully help people make better decisions with their life. Talk to extraordinary people who've lived incredible things or incredible athletes who have immense discipline and focus. And how do they get there? And what can we take away? And how can we be better? And that is how this show was born, in the hope that over time, of course I hope it's really big and successful and whatever else I'm competitive, you know. But ultimately, I want it to help people. And I think that is, for me, profound and interesting way of looking at things.

38:19You know, I've never really looked at stuff in that way before I think it takes a certain level of life experience and maturity to want to do something for that reason. You know, and I think that you're saying the exact same thing. And by the way, I feel that your daughter will see. And I think that it's the only explanation for being able to do these hard things that you do. And for wanting to carry on doing them. Yeah. There's something called Thin Space. Are you aware of it? I did a show for the BBC called Pilgrimage. And they taught us about it. It's a spiritual show. So we did a pilgrimage and we spoke to lots of vicars and priests and we were taught about thin space, which is that place, that moment between earth and heaven.

39:16Some people might be a gust of wind on your ear or it might be just a familiar feeling that you have. You might walk into a shop and smell something that reminds you of your daughter. You might feel that you're in thin space. But more typically, it's like a sunset or something, you know spellbindingly beautiful that looks not not of this earth and you're in thin space and it feels incredible and I feel that thin space when we are depleted hungry um you know 30k left in a 100k race and you're just battered and you kind of you're on the side and you're a bit cold and and all of a sudden you feel some strange warmth around you when you know that would be unusual and all of a sudden you feel strength where you didn't have it before.

39:58And my mind just goes straight to, that's Mike. You know, like picking me up, helping me out. Why is that? Because in life, we have a sensory clusterfuck of everything else going on. And a lot of the time, we're worried about things that aren't really important. And sometimes when you strip it all back and make life really simple, and sometimes it's like, I just need to fucking get through these next couple of miles. You start to realize what's actually important. and you start to actually feel what you're supposed to feel in this world. And that's what I believe. I think stripping some things back and making things a lot more simple solves a lot of the answers.

40:33Have you moved through anger? So obviously you'll never fully be over Azalea's death, obviously. It'll always be something that you carry around with you. But I imagine you were angry to begin with. And do you still feel angry sometimes? Or have you been able to accept it a bit and use it for fuel and strength? I think that's another incredible thing about challenges and training for these challenges. As you all know, you know, doing the endurance things that you do. It's not like an hour in the gym, is it? You know, like for Ultraman, I was doing like four to six hours a day, seven days a week, because it wasn't about being a pinnacle performance.

41:21It was about building the duress and the durability of your body. So you just had to fucking keep going and keep going and keep going and keep going. And that usually sorts out if you're angry or not. I've been in loads of situations, Spence, you know, growing up where there were tough guys or angry guys, you know. You can even go as far to talk about, you know, people who murder people and people who kill people because you think they're really angry. I feel like, give me a couple of hours with them. See if they're still angry. You start to realise how angry you really are. Some people are buddies.

41:57Some people are horrible people. Some people are nasty people. Some people choose when they can be angry and when they're not. My only thing is, my anger was that catastrophic because I understood internally how bad it would be that I decided to channel it in these challenges. And that's when I started to be able to achieve great things. And sometimes I think that's why, you know, these challenges and pushing yourself or just training, just doing something a little bit hard every day is really good because if you're a normal person and nothing's really happened to you and you think you're angry, just find out how angry you are.

42:39Find out how much of a burden is released or relinquished by doing something hard that day. Find out how great and peaceful and proud you can feel at the other side of it. And that comes with trauma. If you're feeling low, with depression, with anxiety, find a moment of strength to just push yourself a little bit and go through something more. And understand how you feel at the other side of it. For me, I never worry about bad times now. Like I said, placing my daughter's headstone down, going through her anniversary, having her birthday. I never worry about these things anymore. It's not nice, those occasions, it hurts.

43:20But I understand through proof, through a track record, through facts on facts on facts, from years and years and years to miles on miles on miles, pain on pain on pain, that at the other side of it is great. At the other side of it is a profound feeling of, I did that confidence belief knowledge and lessons that you can achieve something like why are you achieving a world record yeah sometimes that can be it's I don't I don't really read yeah I don't listen to audiobooks I don't do any of that stuff yeah yeah I'm in a position where I'm able to educate or help or mentor people from around the world yeah that's because I've had some lessons that no one else in the world is ever going to have.

44:05Now being the first and only man in the history of the world to have done something, that means I have a form of education that no one else in thousands or millions of years has ever been able to attain. That means I have conviction in what I'm able to say. And I think that's a great thing about this as well. It's learning and giving yourself the absolute tap on the back, check on the list that you are capable, you can, and you always will be able to, no matter how you feel going forward. We have to do this stuff. Do you ever doubt yourself? No. Not at all. I mean, I just, I love, I just, I love the like, Yeah, absolutely.

44:53I mean, I mean, look, I could safely say, Spence, right, that in terms of like a performance thing like you did as in doing the 30 and 30 in the desert and not so much being able to do 30 on 30 in the desert, but probably the times that you ran every single day, I could say that I'm never going to be able to do as quick as you purely because of the gifts that God given me. You know what I mean? You, if, if I ran, you know, a hundred mile race with you, there is no chance no matter how hard I trained, yeah, that I'm going to beat you a hundred mile race. yeah however like if it comes to raw will and raw like you know rugged rough getting through something i will outlast anybody i'll come across fact like and that's what i have so if you say that ash you've got to do something there is no chance that i will fail because you would see me you know with medical assistance trying to revive me before i've stopped i i firstly i i don't i I think if you did train, you probably could beat me in 100 miles or whatever.

45:55You know, I think you're selling yourself slightly short for once. But I think that of all the people that I would least like to compete with in a go till you drop situation, you'd be up there. I think there might be a TV show for David Goggins, Hardest Geezer, You and Me, if I'm honest, if anyone's listening. Drop till you die, let's go. I mean, do you know what it is? I actually, I dropped Ross Edgley in there as well. Yeah, yeah, Ross, yeah. I've literally, you know, in Ultraman, I actually was thinking of pitching something like that. Yeah, mate, it's a solid idea. I think you've got to chuck disciplines in there because like it's like me, I'm a natural, like, I'm a natural 95k at like five foot nine and a half.

46:45And it's like, no matter what I do, I stay like this. but then so as in running like it's it's going to be like for me to keep up with you harder skis or goggles i can i'll run distance i'll keep going but performance but then you took me in a kayak or let's climb or let's like let you know like certain things cycle it's just like then that changes things do you know i mean so it's like it's got to be it's got to be over multiple kind of different kind of things to see if you can outlast the storm tell me about this tv show that you're making with the BBC? Yeah, Into the Danger Zone. Really cool.

47:19I'm co-producing it. I'm presenting it. I've took over the social campaign for it. I've just really, you know, dived in and took the reins. And it's fantastic. Mate, I literally was doing my usual kind of scan of Sky the other night, just taking ages to find something to watch and saw you there into the Danger Zone. I mean, it's cool, man. It's, again, like you were very kind earlier when we first saw each other say that you were proud of me. Like, I'm proud of you. I think it's so cool everything you're doing. Yeah. I mean, look, right, I think the reason why I was proud because it's not usual, especially in the UK, to see somebody like me with my background producing their own show and presenting it, you know, for the BBC and really taking charge of something like this with a great budget and stuff.

48:11So that was a really proud moment for me. that the BBC had recognised my journey, recognised the impact I had on people, and then wanted to trust me and put me in a position where I could go to some of the most dangerous places in the world. Which is? I went to Brazil. I went to Colombia. I went to South Africa. I went to the Philippines. I went to Marseille and Sweden. And I mean, the interesting thing about... Marseille, south of France. Ranked number one on Europe's 2025 most dangerous places. Really? Yeah. I mean where I where I stayed was like you know on the docks absolutely beautiful but literally five minutes it's the poorest neighbourhood in Europe you know what I mean is it it's the home of the French Connection French Connection was the biggest heroin network in the world supplied 80 % of America's heroin you know like it and it's all stemmed from there but you know I think Spencer I was in Brazil but just to give you an example you sit you sit in there like number one you'd be you know I went to some favelas that nobody had ever been to before media crews and as soon as you cross the line in that favela you know you got 25 guys with AR-15s AK-47s grenades and you you know there's murders here every single day but I went into a militia favela right and you got a guy sitting close than we are now with two revolvers got no safety on and this guy's got a serious history of murdering people and been a leader of multiple factions and he's got his 12 12 a.m at night you've got all of these armed guards in the middle of a militia around favela and he's doing this with his revolvers and he's dropping them on the floor you know he's had a dream he's sat opposite him i've sat closer than me we are now they're touching my knees right and then you're asking me questions and he doesn't want to really give you the answers you know like they're they're doing good things they're great people the the community love them and then i kept pushing him to the point where one of his guards whispered in my ear in portuguese something i looked at my translator and my translator was like panicking and he said if you ask that one more time he's going to shoot him in the head and you're like okay oh yeah so that and it was as real as that there was no security because there can't be security because if you take two security they've got 100 so you're just going in there with you know energy love open-mindedness and trying to build a relationship and a connection to extract you know some information that can hopefully you know translate around the world to people and to understand people's situations what they have to go through So be a voice for them, but also give some kind of relatability to people to understand that maybe here in the UK, their situation is not so bad.

50:45We can be better and do more. It sounds like pretty wild stuff, mate. Yeah. With what you're getting up to now, the traveling around the world, meeting gangs, experiencing danger firsthand, meeting young men who perhaps look and feel a bit lost because they haven't got that inspiration in their lives, that role model to look up to. Do you see any of your former self, you know, in these trips? I guess, you know, it identified that I could have gone one way or the other for real and it could have easily been as simple as turning left or right. it highlighted to me what that could have led to even though I've got friends here that have lost their lives or ended up in prison one of the main things it did though was show me that in multiple countries in multiple dangerous areas with multiple dangerous people that a lot of us just want the same thing and what I meant by that is you know I met a lady in Marseille for example that her son got murdered and after the interview I stood up with that lady and I hugged her and she squeezed me like that hard for about a minute two minutes and it was beautiful it was sad but we had a connection you know pain the next day I went and met a contract killer and after the interview I stood up and opened my arms don't know why I felt like it because this guy had absolutely nothing he didn't have anything to start his life with never mind now he's got guilt and all of these things on top of that and he hugged me and the hug felt the same from him as he did the woman it must have been two minutes you know you're looking at Brazil I met a lady that had had two children murdered I hooked her she was emotional I went to the militia boss and asked him a question and he must have cried for the next 20 minutes and it was thank you thank you thank you it was the first time I lost someone's asked me a real question I never met a person a single person on this trip that I felt in danger of yeah once I'd met them and a lot of the time all these people wanted was to be listened to, heard, or loved.

53:28And some people in this world haven't even got that privilege. So it made me realize that I have got that privilege and also what I can do with that privilege. I also thought, how can I really raise two young men in this world if I don't know to the extent what's happening in it? So it was very beneficial for that too. I think there needs to be more role models, especially in areas of poverty, deprived areas, areas that seem like they have no hope to encourage belief. I think there needs to be people that can actually influence in those areas to help out the areas because a lot of the time it's a systemic problem.

54:12and also I hope that you know with this series it can show that compassion with certain people goes a long way you know some of these people aren't necessarily bad people to come from bad areas they've been through bad situations and they're surrounded by nothing but bad things but them themselves all they need is encouragement a helping hand and somebody that will listen to and showing a bit of love and it can change a lot. I know how I felt for most of my life, feeling like an outsider. I feel like I was pushed out by the people around me. So that's why I chose to have a different approach with this show.

54:50And I wasn't there to be the judge, jury or executioner. I was there. And outside of trying to create an amazing show, first and foremost, I was there because I wanted everybody I spoke to to feel better after they spoke to me than before they started. And I think I achieved that. Well, that's very profound stuff. Have a positive effect on people, man. you know like I and my people will tell you this there is no person that I'll speak to on a day to day basis even if I'm fucking in the middle of my food or in the middle of a phone call how rudely they interrupt me that I'm not like yeah no problem I'll give them time I'll give them space and I want them to walk away better and that's how I choose to live my life that's how I choose to spend my days and it always comes around full circle you know it doesn't matter that I don't feel good that day doesn't mean I have to inflict that on someone else.

55:42I use that opportunity to be able to help someone else and then maybe I feel a little bit better on the turnaround. And that's how I live my life, man. But honestly, I think what you're doing is amazing. I can't wait to see what you get up to next. Really looking forward to watching your shows. And congratulations with everything that you're doing. Azalea's name lives on, as it always will. And it will continue to influence the lives of many, I'm sure. and let's see if we can do something together. Thank you very much for having me, mate. It's been a pleasure, man. Nice to see you. You take care of yourself, brother.

56:18Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed that episode. And if you want to hear more incredible conversations with extraordinary people to help unlock the potential within all of us, then please subscribe, follow and review the show wherever you're listening or watching. Thanks again and we'll catch you next week right here on Untappd.

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