How Elite Marathon Runners Get Faster & Best Running Shoes 2026  | Stephen Scullion

0:02I'm pretty fascinated by you. Brilliant. Yeah. Good, I suppose. We love in here talking to people who are just extraordinarily good at stuff. Sure. You strike me having just met as somebody who's just incredibly driven in what you're looking to achieve. You know, when did you begin to realize, you know, I am one of the best runners in the world, or I can be one of the best runners in the world? I mean I'll never think I was one of the best runners in the world like I appreciate I broke an Irish record I appreciate I was good but the level of like some of the guys that I would train with was just like you know I ran 209 they run like 202 like there's just levels it's just like they were incredible they are incredible sorry to interrupt your thought process how many how many how many people in the world can run a sub 210 yeah very few no it is is it 100 is it less?

0:58It would probably, I think in probably like European history, not to segregate Africa from Europe, but let's say there's 400 can do it. It's probably 330 East African born because of weight and height and weight and living at altitude and things like this. So one of 70 people in the world probably, yeah. And actually funny when super shoes came out, which we might talk about, what blew my mind was how, almost little people did it in that first sort of, say, six years of super shoes. Like I thought more and more people were going to, because it was such a heroic thing to do to break 210. And then you almost thought when super shoes come out, like suddenly lots of British people do it, suddenly lots of Europeans will do it.

1:42And actually for a while, like they didn't. So it clearly is like a, you know, brilliant feat. I think the separation between me and everybody listening isn't that I am pretty driven I am pretty competitive but not like psychopathic competitive or driven I'm just not lazy you know and I'm I'm not lazy the day after I was really driven so like everyone listening is going to be like as driven as me today like oh yes Scully really got me pumped they're like I'm amped I'm gonna go do a run like here we go and then the next day they're like oh yeah I have that thing this morning so I can't do my run this morning so oh, I don't run today.

2:22Versus like, well, shit, yeah, like maybe when you get home from work, you just have to do the run. And you're not as driven as yesterday, but you just have to keep back on yourself. You're talking about discipline versus motivation and just like a general psychology towards success. But how much of it is a raw gift, a natural kind of God-given talent? You know, not everybody, even the most motivated or disciplined people in the world can just go and run a 209. That's not on the table for most people. So what is it about you? Is it your physiology? Oh, I know. Yeah. Yeah, I could answer. I have an extremely good running economy, which is why, honestly, for a guy that's over, when I go to races like marathons and I'm picking up my number, they think I'm like a team coach or like the kind of like, oh, you with an athlete here?

3:09because I'm just bigger than most people picking up their numbers. And it's not like I'm huge. But when you see me on the start line next to 55 kilogram men, then I look like huge. I feel huge. But I have an extremely good running economy. Even when they did all the testing for trying to break the sub two, even the numbers that were coming through for these top 10 athletes in the world, my numbers would have still been better. I have a naturally very high hemoglobin, naturally very high hematocrit which if tested I think in like Tour de France I'd be flagged as like oh maybe he's cheating but it's just naturally they were just I'm not cheating it's just high still high what does that mean?

3:54so that's what helps push oxygen you process oxygen better yeah so why you go to altitude is to bump your sort of hemoglobin and hematocrit and so if you have that naturally quite high like that's a huge advantage so like you yeah you So VO2 max is sky high? My VO2 max was probably like, I'd say about 75 as a marathon runner, but probably 80 prior to that. But that's another huge gift. You don't, most people that have a very good running economy lack VO2 max capability. So that was like a hybrid gift profile of being able to not only get a VO2 max to a pretty high level, but you're also super efficient.

4:35So basically to break it to our marathon, I'm going to get so geeky, but to break it to our marathon, the research was you had to have a VO2 max over 80. You had to have a running economy below 180, which I do. And you needed to weigh, sadly, probably like 52 kilos. To break two? Yeah. They did like the science, the research, blah, blah, blah. And it was like, they worked it out at sort of like an energy perspective, not a fitness. You would also have to get tremendously fit, But they were like, for this to be sort of physically possible, and there's a graph that was done on it, you see Kipchoge and you see VO2 max has to be 80, running economy has to be under 180.

5:13So you have to be super efficient with your energy. You have to be able to operate at a very high VO2 max, and you need to be super light. And that allowed you to run at that pace for two hours. That was the sort of energy demand for two hours. And I have two of those gifts, but I don't, the weight I was always struggling.

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7:45if we're going to talk about weight you know i'm assuming you can lose weight everyone can sure but there's a negative there's a kind of net negative effect of you losing weight yeah so there's a cool example in i will get back to your questions typical me i'll go all around the world I'll come back. There's a brilliant example in Christian Blumenfeld, the amazing Ironman triathlon. And he must weigh 76, 77 kilos, a lot more than me. And he's Olympic champion. And the studies that they did on him, he could lose the weight and his VO2 max as a number, because it's divided by body weight went up but his actual ability to hold a high vo2 in terms of like volume i sound like such a physiologist no no but this is great honestly it's what it's kind of what we're all about and i'm tracking with you so yeah so his ability to actually run it not a high vo2 number but the high liters per minute was better when he was heavier so what we're saying is when he lost weight he became weaker his capacity to hold high levels of vo2 wasn't there he didn't have the same capacity he had a higher number on paper but his actual can you run a vo2 max for six or seven minutes like i don't care what your number is if maybe it's 90 woohoo but can you go and run for eight or nine minutes at that vo2 and not slow down not suffer is it fair to say that if the only uh discipline was running sure that being lighter is better yeah i think obviously him being his swimmer and yeah i mean i look i i've sat with a nutritionist who has told me the importance on eating this amount and you know they've written out this plan for me and I'm going that's way too much like way too much food and you know she's explaining like all the reasons why and staying healthy and not getting injured and doing all this and I'm like I get it but if I told you that the top you know the top 100 athletes in the world for marathon average weight is 56 kilograms and 100 and I think it was something like 165 centimeters in height or something I was like Like I get what you're saying and all this nutrition stuff, but it is a fact.

9:59I would be faster if I could maintain the same power, not get injured at this lighter weight. And the crazy reality is that, you know, in some of the training camps I've been on with, you know, some of these best athletes in the world, including Mo Farah, it wasn't the running that he was doing, which was clearly impressive. Of course it was. It was the fact he was throwing around 120 to 130 kilogram squat bar on his back like it was nothing. and he weighs 55 kilograms and this squat bar at 140 is bouncing up off his back onto his back. And I'm going, brilliant. He's stronger than me, lighter than me.

10:35And he runs more. This is great. And so like, yes, the reality is because of time on feet, because of just you're carrying more weight, but also because of heat, the lighter you are, the better chance you have of being probably successful to a point. And then for a lot of people listening, let me please just intervene. You will get a lot better, just run them more and just train them more. And weight will likely come down naturally, but you will get to a point where you plateau. You could say you're doing the enough, the top amount of running you can do. You're focusing on all the other little things like sleep, hydration, and yes, then losing a little bit of weight would likely help.

11:17So we're really talking about top, top, top performance. What does the perfect training week look like for somebody, not for you potentially, because that's going to be unrelatable to lots of people. But so say somebody's running London Marathon, you know, and they're in a training block and they've, you know, they've got several weeks to prepare or, you know, equal even months. What is a perfect training week look like for somebody looking to just achieve a good marathon result? Sure. I always think I would break training down into, you're doing some, there's a big kick on like zone two, for example, and this kind of thing.

11:55And so that's where I'd go into it. But there's some training. A big kick. Yeah, like a big, like everyone loves, you know, calling like the zone two stuff. Like I literally post a reel with zone two and it's like 200K views because it's just like this, like craze, you know, like everyone focuses in on it a lot because it's like, it's the thing right now, for example, right? And I would say that is brilliant for like long-term development. Like that's probably really important. but whether or not I think it's like super important for the next 10 to 12 weeks of your life if that's like the marathon so you're breaking your week into what's going to directly help the next race that's super super important but what's going to make sure that over the next lot of years I keep progressing as a runner if that's important to you like this isn't like your last one sort of thing and so your week's sort of broken up into some training is going to have a big impact on what's coming up next and the rest of the training is kind of yes getting you fitter for the next goal but also help build this foundation that over time you can gradually get better before each one um or before each next race sort of thing so i would be doing probably a lot more intervals than most people do and a lot more like power sort of base training than most people do and i'll explain that so um the biggest difference between your next marathon and your current one is probably your vo2 max versus your like um okay threshold still very very important but a lot of people jump into marathon training they think long runs they think marathon effort and really for most people running like you know two hours 50 to let's say three hours 30 for the marathon or four hours the even marathon pace for example is like a really low threshold so you're going to do about 20 to 30 percent of the work that you're doing which is just kind of running whether it's zone two whether It's just easy running.

13:42Yes, it's going to help your next marathon, but it's also going to help future career, right? Then you want to make sure that like 20 to, probably like 20 % of your week, don't like get all autistic on this audience and like start getting the maths out. Like just roughly, roughly 20, 30 % of your week, you're thinking, how do I improve pace, right? So improving pace is doing things like, you know, your intervals on the track, your VO2 max stuff. You're doing like maybe some hill sprints or some hill efforts. you're possibly doing some higher end of threshold work which won't be your marathon pace because that's too slow.

14:16Higher end threshold work would be roughly what you can hold for, let's say you went out tomorrow, it's kind of the pace that you can hold for likely 30 to 40 minutes. In a textbook, it's gonna say one hour but that's when you've trained really well and you've built up to that. So it's really what you could hold for 30, 40 minutes tomorrow, okay? That's about 20 to 30 % of the week and what that is doing is improving your marathon pace. the pace that you're going to be able to run out on race day that train and it's helping to improve your pace by basically like pushing your ceiling higher your ability higher so for you know at least one or two sessions a week you should just go out and blast 30 minutes pretty well not like you might break it up into reps you might sort of but it's not going to be marathon pace it's going to be a level above i think people get addicted with like long runs and marathon pace stuff right But that's what we're getting to.

15:03So the next part of the program is extension. So you've done your easy running, which is great. You've done your I'm raising my ceiling, which is me pushing my marathon pace forward. And the rest of the work that you're doing is how do I make sure on race day I can keep going? Because it's 26 miles or 42.2K or whatever, right? So that work that you're doing. So a lot of people do these like long tempos at marathon pace. They do long runs with a bit of sort of like marathon pace in it. And yes, it's super important, but really it's only taking whatever fitness you have and helping extend how long you can run at that fitness.

15:39It's not really pushing fitness higher. When it's still pushing fitness higher is because you've had maybe a pretty big off season. And so just by running, you're getting sort of fitter. It's not necessarily making you fitter or faster because you've stressed the right sort of physiology or the right sort of like zone. if you want to go zones we're talking probably most people's marathon pace is going to be between zone two and zone three um the training i'm talking about making you faster is basically zone four zone five like up above that what is it that you think makes people so obsessed with zone two probably the factual answer would be the hype around zone two and cycling and stuff at the minute probably like the like tady pogacca for example and the time that these guys are talking about putting into zone two like probably made it really really popular um i from doing like sort of research and looking into it i think it's the only zone possibly it's the only zone that you can run in that helps improve everything below it and everything above it perhaps was this sort of like that was what made it like the sweet spot of training sort of thing but um in terms of like if you were going to a track to train or if you could go out for a run if you go to a track or train you could do any type of train and you wanted to help your next race like your most bang for your buck is still going to be like vo2 max or tempo um but there's still a huge amount of benefit to running in zone 2 like an extremely huge amount it's basically the the same as like threshold for example like bottom look bottom end of threshold you're at your most sort of like metabolic state and so because you're at your sort of most metabolic state you're just teaching yourself to be like super super efficient and recruit a huge amount of mitochondria which is like the science behind it sort of thing.

17:20But it is just making you more efficient. I got my zone two to like, let's say 340 per K, which like seems ridiculous. And it's not like I'm going to sit here and be like, all I did was spend three hours in zone two a week, no matter what I had to do. I walked a bit, I jogged a bit. No, I just trained really hard. And over 15 to 20 years, my zone speeds just kind of got quicker. So of course it's awesome now that I can go out there and go for a run and my heart rate's in zone two and it's at this really quick pace, but I wouldn't necessarily encourage people to deliberately go out there and walk, jog, walk, jog.

17:53I can tell you from a factual perspective, there is not a single elite professional athlete on the world stage right now that ever did a walk, jog, run to stay in zone two. Fact. But if you don't have the time perhaps to dedicate like some elite professionals do or whatever, like there might be an advantage to it. But I would say you're still better just putting in that most people are time constraint or like constraints are family life, you know, work life. And I think literally if that's your case and you can only dedicate five, six hours a week or whatever, you're wasting your time running in like zone two or whatever.

18:30Honestly, I hate to say it, but I think you are. When I talk about almost like zone two that I do now, it's almost like intentionally not jogging on a run. It's putting effort in because once your fitness gets to a pretty high place, like almost to stimulate a change in physiology, you need to then push a bit. So I could go out for a run. I could run at 420 per K, four minutes per K and my heart rate might be 130. And that's what I call like jogging. It's like, Stephen, that's not building fitness. That's jogging. Like what you're doing? So if I have to like try, yes, it's in the zone two category, but actually it's that intent.

19:07It's the psychology around it. It's like, I'm not messing around today. I'm training. I didn't I'm going to go in the gym to sit on the spin bike and look good. I'm running. I'm pushing. And that's almost how I got good as a kid, was doing these stupid runs before school, four or five mile. And I just ran hard. There was no zone. There was no, I just went out and ran hard. So whenever I got to the next race, it made sense that I was going to run well because I had trained hard. It makes the most sense. Yeah. Like for me to do a zone two run, I really struggle with it. Like if I set out to go, right, I'm going to run for two hours in zone two.

19:42I can't really do that. And it's not because I want to go faster. It's just because my heart rate kind of, like when I start running, my heart rate might be like 130 if it's slow, obviously. And then like it goes to 150, 155 almost immediately. Like even if I'm running slowly, but then I could go from running very slowly to like very fast in like thresholds, like tempo for me and the heart rate will remain the same. It'll go from 150, 155 to 161. Like I averaged 160 for Tokyo Marathon. Sure. But it's kind of like, I just find it really difficult when people say, oh, you know, spend four hours or five hours in zone two each week.

20:25It's like, that to me feels like I'm walking the dog or something or like I can't keep it there. Yeah, it's hard for me to say there's not like a, maybe the argument would be that in like the elite space, there's a huge gain to it because you're still actually running at a decent quality. Yeah, you're still running hard. And you actually have to level up to get into zone two, right? But if you don't, if a lot of people don't even have a zone one, like nevermind a zone two, like most people are kind of out the door and they're in zone three already. Like, wow, this has turned into like a bit of a day.

20:57You know, like you're not just like trotting along. Well, you are trotting along, but your heart rate's kind of going, whoa. And so then like, yeah, it becomes impossible. So it becomes like a, my brain naturally, I don't know why it went here, but it was like you should then probably do the training like you're doing it now, whether it's like seven, eight hours a week, and maybe a lot of it's going to be above zone two because that's just your heart rate goes straight up. But then maybe you dedicate, if you have the time, another like two, three hours off to the side that you're not even seeing as marathon training.

21:25It's just kind of this long-term development. And maybe because zone two really does work. Maybe. And so you're still ticking a box. It's like, I still kind of covered it, but it's not taken away from the eight to 10 hours a week of sort of quality. Like I'm a big believer in you don't want to be too far away from race pace like for like too much of the week, you know? So like, let's say like you're, like if you're having to run 10 minute miles instead of seven minute miles to stay in like zone one, I'm like, well, what is that really doing for your legs to go and run? Sure, it's possibly helping all this aerobic side of stuff that people are talking about.

22:00But I don't really think it's going to help like the next marathon. It's all well and good when you can run in zone two. I'm what, one minute per mile or 35 seconds per K off race pace in zone two? That's fine. That's perfect. But I think the further you get away from race pace you're almost just teaching your legs and whole system. Not to go fast. Yeah, like a different so then I'd say the real benefit might be to like cycle or something to stay in zone two or do something like outside of running. Keep your legs in tune. I can get on board with that. Like I struggle to get out of zone two when I'm cycling.

22:32So like if I'm cycling and I'm really pushing it, I'll look down and I'll be at a 135, 140 heart rate. You probably don't have the quads, probably just like a leg thing. You don't have the calves for running and you don't have the quads for biking. Yeah, exactly. It's good. We're really hitting limitations here. No, it's true though. But I also know from zone two science, like there's still, if a lot of the gain is mitochondria, like there'd be like a, does it cross over? And I think it definitely crosses over because Brownlee's a bloody good runner. Alex, he's a very, very, very good runner. A lot of these triathletes now are killing it and running.

23:06So it clearly crosses over. But from a mitochondria and stuff perspective, like from physiology, like the mitochondria doesn't go, oh, no, I'm a triathlon mitochondria. I'm a cyclone mitochondria. I can't help the running mitochondria today. So it must still help. But I think that a Kenyan coach, a guy called Renato Canova, used to get his athletes only pretty much to do tempo running or sessions. and then when they were doing their kind of like leisure activity, you could say like I talked about the 20, 30 % of just running, they biked at a fast cadence. He didn't want them to learn like the slow mechanics.

23:41He had no interest in slow mechanics. What part do Super Shoes play and how do you choose the pair for you? Sponsorship deals aside. I don't have any, so it's all good. You don't have any sponsorships? No, well, I mean, I just have my own company now, So I was sponsored. And so when I first got introduced to super shoes, it was almost like for the first time ever run and change. First of all, they're huge. You know, they play a huge role and I'll sort of get to that and I don't ignore it as amazing. But I was part of the era, you could say, of not every shoe company made equal performing the other shoe companies.

24:22Now, we're still kind of there, but nowhere near to the same extent. So running became this sport of like, basically like Formula One, where if you didn't have the best performing car, you just didn't, you know, you probably couldn't win that day. No matter how good a driver you are, they probably just accepted. But that's the world they grew up in. Running, we didn't grow up in that world. We grew up in a world of you got super fit, you stood on a start line and you had every chance of winning versus the person next to you. But now suddenly like these shoes came out and it was like, well, that's ridiculous.

24:54like this person can be five to ten seconds per mile quicker than me just because what they're wearing on their feet and for me to find when i said earlier about levels you know five to ten seconds per mile could have put me from where i was at 209 to much much closer to these guys that i just see as like titans of the sport at 203 204 you know it's huge they were in super shoes yeah yeah so it's all it's all even but that's the impact that it would have had it would have put you to such a, but there's, there's multiple benefits because it's okay. So it's changed the marathon completely. So the marathon can now be raced at a much higher at the top end level and probably filters down, but at the top end level, it used to be, you could race a marathon about 18 miles of it.

25:39You could run on carbohydrates basically. And then you just could not store any more carbohydrates. So the last eight miles of a marathon, like hitting the wall, this sort of thing, that was because you couldn't possibly store enough carbohydrates the day before and you couldn't possibly absorb enough carbohydrates on the course. So at some point you'll just, boop, you're done. So the way you had to train for a marathon was you had to get very good at burning fat basically. And then you had to race at a lower intensity to see if you're call it miles per gallon. Then you get to the finish line.

26:11What has now happened, And because the stat we talked about earlier, which was run an economy, overnight, super shoes have improved this massively for people. And that now means that you can run a marathon at a much harder effort. And you noticed that in the first year of like super shoes existing, right? The typical quote was finally figured it out, you know, finally worked it all out. And it's like you train the exact same and you just wore the super shoes. Like you didn't figure it out. Like Nike figured it out and you sort of piggybacked off the back of that. But I love them because they're allowing people to race more.

26:47They're allowing everybody to race faster, which is fun. And I think they're brilliant, but I do think they've changed the sport a lot. Where do they have the biggest impacts?

26:59This ad is sponsored by ZocDoc. Hi, it's Danny Pellegrino from Everything Iconic. Have you been putting off that annual doctor's appointment because you don't want to make the call? Or maybe you've been meaning to find a new dentist, but you have no idea where to start. I find that's especially true when you move. It's hard to find your people. I've been there, which is why I use ZocDoc. Now, as a busy podcaster parent and someone who's always juggling a million things, I love anything that makes life easier. And ZocDoc lets you search and compare local in-network doctors with over 250 ,000 providers across more than 200 specialties.

27:33You can read reviews from real patients, find a provider who feels like the right fit, see actual appointment openings and book instantly. I recently had a last minute health issue pop up and needed to see someone fast. Instead of calling around or sitting on hold, I found a doctor on ZocDoc and booked an appointment in just a few minutes. It made the whole process so much less stressful. Ready to be seen? Download the ZocDoc app today. That's ZocDoc, Z-O-C-D-O-C, and book that appointment on your to-do list. While every other channel is fighting for your customers' attention, podcasts are where they've already given it.

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28:40Marathon day, probably getting you from mile, maybe like 16 to like 20, maybe even like 21, where your head's still in the game. Or would you find that, say, a super shoe would be incredibly helpful to a three-hour marathon runner? Yeah, it's so interesting. first of all I do think they'd be helpful but probably not the same I think what they've done for elites for example is not to sound like an asshole or anything or elitist but when you're operating at 210 for a marathon the fitter you get the harder you have to try that's the way it is you can run at a higher percentage of your VO2 max so an athlete running 209 might be running at 96 % of their VO2 max everybody knows VO2 max is pretty hard as in like you're fully out of breath you're having to mentally really focus.

29:31If you're running, I think, three hours for a marathon, maybe you're down at 82 % of VO2 max. So your perceived exertion would be a lot lower. So in the elite domain, what it does is it buys you time. First of all, you used to struggle at 16, and then your head could go because you still tend to go. If it's not getting you to like 20, 21, most people that are going to do London Marathon, when you get to 21, you're kind of already there. You know, you have to kind of just finish it out. but if you're at 16, 17 and you haven't sort of done the down and back yet, it's a lot easier to be like, I can't do it.

30:03This is Miles we're talking about. Yeah, so in the elite domain, I think it bought people run an economy which got them further at a faster speed, which then made it psychologically a bit more comfortable to get through the marathon. At the non-elite level, I think the biggest benefits are probably like possibly an injury prevention sort of like asset that they are known to, A lot of even elite athletes are training more because of super shoes, less impact on the body. And I would imagine from the running economy, it's still in that space because running economy is so linked to fuel and fuel is way more important to non-elites than it.

30:42It's very important for both. But the longer you're out there, the more fuel plays a role. And so anything that's saving you fuel is, you know, brilliant. but I think that yeah for the elites it was a mental thing to make it that little bit more comfortable to get through it for the non-elites it's probably more of a fuel than an injury prevention If you had to rank the best super shoes in the world Wow so I'm going to give you not a stat but like I did a lot of testing on this because I was just really curious I was curious first because I wanted to know the people I was racing against like what advantage they had pretty much or disadvantage So I tested a bunch of different shoes.

31:21But there was also a statistic that was like per athlete, one athlete can get, you know, anything from a 1 % benefit to like 10%. This is on running economy. And then per athlete per shoe can be anything from one to 9%. So you could wear, we could both wear the Adidas shoe today. I could get a 4%, you might only get one. and then we could put on like the Ciccone and you could get 10 and I could get two you know so it's it depends on the way your foot hits the ground and your stride and this sort of thing and ranking my at this moment in time ranking the top five I'm gonna put Ciccone top and I don't know what it is about it it's really fast I like it a lot and I know I like it because when I get to the running track if I know it's gonna be a tough session I like if there's good people there I put the Cicconi's on.

32:13I'm like, I need all the help I can get. I'm going to put Cicconi top. I'm going to go Is that the Endorphin? I think it's Endorphin Elite 2. Incredible. Super, super bouncy. So I'll go Cicconi Endorphin Elite top. I'll go Puma Fast R second. That's out and out performance. Then I'll put the Puma Nitro Elite 4 third. Adidas Adios 4 I'll put fourth and then the Asics Metaspeed Sky 5th. Wow. That would be my top. If we're talking about out and out speed. So no Alphafly? No, definitely not. That's so mean. Really? No, it doesn't sit there. I mean, we're talking like... What about the Adizero Prime X3, which is illegal in racing?

33:01No, yeah. You know, I ordered a pair probably because I thought it would do really well in a YouTube video to do like testing on it and I just didn't ever wear it. Yeah. I think they were, they came up a bit small for me, But I, again, if we're talking about, and I don't mean elite versus non-elite from any elitist perspective, but if we're talking about speed here, so that's all it is, we'll call it speed. I think the shoe that, you know, suits an elite runner might be different for the shoe that suits a non-elite runner. Just because at certain speeds, your biomechanics change and from the weight perspective.

33:37So if we're talking about elites, we're talking likely 70 kilos max and then under. So the force you're putting through would be different from, you know, sub three hour marathons, well, 650 per mile. And, you know, you're probably not weighing under 80 kilos. And so it's different. What you need is probably different. That's why even when I rank those top five, that's out and out speed and performance. not what I would probably change it to this the Meta Speed Sky and the new Puma Nitro Elite 4 if I was talking about what I think is best for people running around you know two hours 45 to four hours because they're flatter they're not as aggressive but they're they don't feel like a super shoe but they still are if that makes sense you put the fast hours on they'll put you on your calves you'll be injured within six mile seven mile but they're really fast but they are aggressive I can't wait to go buy all of these.

34:32You're like so on your toes and like they make you run. But imagine like four hours off on your toes like that. Why is the Prime X3 illegal for elite marathon runners? Well, it's not that, I mean, it is illegal, but it's only illegal because of the amount of millimeters of foam. They just had to sort of draw the bar somewhere. Would it make a material difference to you or Kipchoge, for example? Well, Kipchoge, when he broke the two R's, he had three plates in that shoe. So we don't, like that became illegal. Now, so it was, he had the foam, as we know, everyone has enjoyed the foam, but he also had three different carbon plates within the shoe.

35:12So I think after the sub two, World Athletics had to basically be like, like, come on, we can't take the piss. But actually you could go home and you could get your primes, you could cut them in three places, start putting in your own little carbon plates, glue them back together and off you go but like i think they just had to like at the end of the day i don't think like 70 millimeters of foam is going to be faster than like whatever like 40 millimeters of foam i haven't i've never tried the prime x3 i guess they are maybe they're quicker they did also the okay they must be quicker because there's a few athletes in the ironman world champs and things like that were wearing an on shoe that was 50 millimeters of foam and they're fully legal like fully allowed so if they're not faster you know those guys wouldn't award them i i tend to look at what the best people wear and think there must be a reason i had a bit of a moral dilemma with with what to wear in tokyo because i really loved the prime x3 in training uh and felt like really supported felt like a you know a good ridge to it and i would bet you didn't wear them well i i wore them i did wear them because i felt like i kind of had to wear them because I had like really bad problems with my shins in the two days leading up to the marathon I you know came on really late you saw they're faster I don't think there's a material difference for me at my pace between the two shoes you know I I kind of feel very comfortable in the Prime X series in a new set of Alpha Flies when I've been training very hard I feel great too you know whatever it's not well I think the Ciccone needs to be quicker than the Prime X but it's what I said earlier about the injury thing like that's why it's so important like when you're picking a shoe like first of all i would like to know what you were doing to sharpen up which meant race week you wrecked your calves like that is like what we're doing here that would really anger me as a coach but then so it's like if you've done this whole build-up and then like you're ballooning the week of the race like that would kill me so we should touch on that for the audience yeah but then also do understand as the audience that when it comes down to this speed per mile if it's two three seconds for example four or five seconds right massive but if a shoe is going to cause you discomfort in a race which means you lose 30 seconds later in the race in a minute and two minutes and three minutes per mile that's why it's like you find a shoe that works for you from multiple angles does an injury in the build-up does an injury on race day and lets you run at whatever technique seems most efficient to you both from an injury perspective and a speed perspective but let's talk about the sessions were they different from i've i've never i've never prepared for a sub three hour attempt well basically you know i agree i agreed to to do tokyo seven weeks before tokyo um i was in okay shape but you know probably not sub three hour marathon shape seven weeks out uh interviewed al brownlee he said you know you should try the prime x3s you know he he enjoyed those a lot said he got a lot out of them yeah uh so so you know started running in the Prime X3s against his advice, barely did any long slow runs.

38:12I just didn't do the zone two stuff really, the odd one, but mostly found myself like running, you know, in or around marathon pace for between 10 and 25K, you know, fairly regularly in the lead up to the race. And then just even in London, just before heading out, like, you know, the shins started blowing up a bit. uh i put it down to wearing you know the plates regularly like maybe call it four or five times a week i was wearing the plates and you know everyone's saying you shouldn't be and put the put the vermiro pluses on and go for a nice slow trot and that would be even more painful it's not fun is it though it's crap as i hate it like i can't i just can't do it i put it down to a lack of isometric load and probably in your calves i wouldn't straight to blame the super shoes i get they played a role but it's the majority of force when you're running goes straight through the like soleus and it's like the the soleus takes the most force of all the muscles in the body when you're what's the soleus uh this one that's right so yeah because you get tight here and then it pulls on the shin right so yeah so what the inside of the shin bone yeah so soleus is basically this is the ball of your calf it's not that it's this part of your calf so this is the soleus muscle this is what gets loaded the most as a runner and so most runners lack strength in the soleus which the way you target that is like you do isometric strength holds, which can be either on like a leg press and you do like a single leg, you push it out a bit and then you just hold.

39:45And you'll just know what it's like, this muscle is just working loads. And it's just getting used to hold and like weight. Or you do like a raise lunge where your back leg's obviously up on the box, your front leg's up, you come up on your toe a little bit and you maybe hold a kettlebell and you just do an isometric hold. But that's... I've never done any of this. Yeah, it's just, well, that's where the brain just, my brain doesn't go to like, oh we're going to bring in the super shoes like i'm like no your calves just aren't strong enough they're strong enough from i'm sure you're strong but it's are they running strong that's the difference you can uh insult me all you like i don't mind at all uh but just just in passing the so it's a it's a strange thing that you're saying because it resonates so much with me because people are calling it shin splints i know that it's not shin splints right it's it's nothing to do with my shin right it's the it's the muscle that's directly behind the shin i was running with some great guys who run 229s and they're 85 kilos by the way like can you imagine yeah um and and they were saying it's shin splints and i was like it isn't it's it's it's the muscle that attaches to behind the shin it's just completely whacked like it's like it's violently unhappy yeah it's not so much the shin obviously if i run my thumb up and down my shin it's gonna really hurt in the shin but there's i think there's also like a i'm again i'm not physio but but you would want to release your arches a lot because the plantar can come down there and run up and strengthen the soleus, and you'd be golden.

41:10You see? And you get those alpha flies back on. You're laughing. No, no, but I don't want those anymore. You want the sconies? Yeah, yeah, so I want them. They're wild. They're so aggressive. You put them on, and you're like, wow. They should sponsor me because I'm so positive about them. They're like, wow. I literally can't. So I think, I'm hoping it's not the pair I already have because the first pair of super shoes I ever bought, I think, were these. So also on that note, the Alpha Fly 1 was the best. No, no, so the Sorkinie Endorphin 2. The Endorphin Elite 2. It has to be the Endorphin Elite 2.

41:39Can you pull up a picture of those? Yeah. And the Alpha Fly, I think, 1 was the quickest. So they come with pink laces? There's multiple colors now. So the Alpha Fly 1 was the best. I'm literally buying a pair of them as soon as I leave here. I literally can't. Oh, they're brilliant. I think there's a 3 coming out, or it might already be out, but I haven't tested it, so I can't. I want to see if these are the ones I already own. Oh, they're so good. Like, they are so good. Fantastic. Okay, I love a new super shoe. I can't say from that. Fantastic. I'm buying them now. They're probably bouncy. They're how a super shoe felt at the start when you first put a super shoe on and thought, wow.

42:13And then that's kind of left. That's kind of like, because we've got used to it and all this sort of stuff. But they, when you first put them on, you're like, oh, dear. No, no, because I have a pair of talking-to-dolphers. I came back from the 30 marathons in the desert and my mate was like you need to buy these endorphins and I went to the track and I ran like a 17.50 5k and I'd never ever I'd never broken 20 at the time like I literally I set off running and I was like oh I'll just run like hard but not out of control and then I'll check my watch like 200 meters in and I looked down and I was running like 3.17s and I was like what is this like i couldn't fucking believe my eyes i'll be fitness though maybe it's basically like i think this might be the later model saw can the endorphin elite full stop is it's the one oh so it's just like the first version i said well this is a later one yeah so that's just the endorphin elite one but i think there's a third how i don't own the new thing is yeah i think there's a three now so but i've never tried it so i can't condor endorse it honestly i can't i can't bear it there It might be a three-yard, but twos, yeah, they might have them.

43:23I just need to know what it is. Because honestly, there's actually, okay, good question. How much of the super shoe is a mental thing? So, for example, I've now been very enthused about this new Sorkin-E. I bust it out on London Marathon Day, and I just go to town on it. How much is me just running like an animal because I think I'm wearing the right thing? I mean, first of all, does it matter really? Like, it's cool. like if it's just because you're excited about a shoe like that's an awesome reason to be like excited or whatever but so much of it is still like obviously fitness and the work you're putting in or whatever but yeah like people getting excited about whether it's a new watch, new gear, new shoe like it all contributes but it definitely gives you confidence on what you're wearing on race day but as long as it's not taken away which is just practicing it, wear it and train it and make sure it doesn't mess you up The sort of thing that you're talking about does look like an actual shoe.

44:19Like the one I'm talking about is like held together by the laces. Do you know what I mean? The Endorphin Elite 2, I know what you're saying because the upper on the Endorphin Elite 2 isn't like other shoe uppers. Like it feels like it does hold you in. It's like a canvas. Yeah, but even in the end, so your one might be even worse than this, but that probably would be, if I was given a negative, it would be the upper. And I actually, the upper on mine would probably be a bit too big where I'm almost having to like, I tie my laces like pretty tight, so I'm having to pull it up and over. But that would probably be like the only suggestion.

44:53If I was talking to Suconi, get that upper sort of a bit better. But your foam. Foam and plates rigid as hell. It must do really well, yeah. But I'll deal with that upper to wear that shoe. I think if I was racing a marathon, if I was racing a marathon, probably in like the next three weeks, I'd probably wear the Puma Nitro Elite 4 because I'm limited by fitness. so I think my limitation will be fitness so it's not going to make a huge difference to the Ciccone versus the Puma but if I thought I'd put in a bit more training I'd a million percent be wearing the Ciccone's London am I wearing the really aggressive Ciccone or the Puma are all of these shoes legal and faster than the Prime X3 I would say they're definitely faster but I can't say that all I can tell you is the Prime X is KM and I put them on my feet and was not excited about doing a video at all.

45:49Like the Cicconis came and I nearly went and ran a marathon that afternoon. You'll be buzzing. I like being there. So from an aesthetic, they're beautiful. I got the white bear. Yeah, I just thought they're brilliant. I got those the other day. Did you hear me say, really? Yeah, and I've wore them like every time since they've arrived. Well, these are fast. They're fast, yeah. Are they? So I'm going to find myself after this chat with legal race shoes that are faster than the Prime X3. I think it's only illegal in world athletics and international. Are they still illegal? Are they? I don't know.

46:23Are they? I don't know the answer to that. First of all, the Suconis? No, the Suconis are legal. But I'm saying I don't think Prime X3 is... I don't know that Prime X3 is illegal unless you're running under world athletics sanctioned rules sort of thing. For example, world athletics rules means you're not allowed to run with an MP3 player or headphones, but everybody in the mass race runs with mp3 parent headphones because only the elites are subject to like world athletics like rules or whatever so I don't know for example that like I don't maybe someone will correct that but I don't think the masses are running under world athletic sanctions so there would not be a 50mm or a 40mm foam thing you'd have a car and that could call you out about it but like I don't necessarily think that's fact I did think that these rules applied to serious athletes Well, not serious.

47:11It's just that you've entered an elite race, which makes you eligible for prize money, like all these things. So you have to govern by the rules sort of thing. So the only problem with me wearing the Prime X3s would have been if I podiumed. You couldn't get the prize money. Yeah, yeah. That's a shame. Sorry, guys. I'll have to give this to the fourth place. I know I'm a bit of an unknown, but I have just waxed a 204. No, yeah. But also I don't think they're, like I said, they arrived. I put them on. I don't necessarily think they're like way faster. I'm not like, oh my God, you to run like 3.30 if you didn't wear them.

47:42Like, I don't think so. I don't think you brought the best backup pair either, but next time you will. Listen, I'm never running in anything but the sulk and the endorphins. With your new calves and your new shoes, you're laughing.

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49:42How do you keep your legs ticking over at the pace that you can run the majority of the race at? And again, it's a bit of a selfish question. What do you mean? So I find, so I broke Tokyo recently into eight five kilometer sets. I just found that that helped me like, you know, click into a difference. Yes, brilliant. 5K every 5K, right? So Tokyo, if I don't say myself, was perfect. Like it was 4 or 6, 4 or 6, 4 or 6, 4 or 6. All of the reps, it was like, it couldn't have been better. And then there was just that, I cannot do this last 7K like at that pace. so obviously dropped a bit and you know went from potentially running a 254 or whatever it would have been to a 257 how do you keep the pace in your legs and i fueled pretty well i thought yeah so that would be one of the questions so it would be either it's fitness you didn't have the fitness to run 42k at that pace um could be a leg thing that they were never really calloused enough to handle it.

50:47But leg thing can often show up as a fuel thing because your legs start to get heavy, they start to get a bit crampy. And that could just be they're starting to run out of fuel, for example, so it might not be a leg callous thing. And yeah, so the question would be how much fuel did you take, I guess, the sort of like day before plus then on race day. And then from a, see what you're explaining, and even though you talked about London being 4.16 versus like the 4.06, clearly what happens is the gun goal and you just run at this feel, whatever feels right for you to run at. Maybe you have half a plan, but you probably also seem to just do it out of like, this kind of feels right.

51:21And so actually your fitness might've just been better for this Tokyo one. And so you still kind of ran at the right feel, but you've either not done a good enough marathon buildup that has prepared you to run the 42K, which would be both from a fitness thing, both from a legs need to have done something in training that will replicate what they're gonna receive on race day. And yeah, so that's like, that's where the typical wall is for everybody like everyone that talks about that talks about it was easy until 30k 35k then legs and i think you can get quite easily trapped in marathon talk right when like you're in a training block and somebody says something like um well if you can run three sets of 10 you know at fours you know which is significantly faster than your marathon pace with you know a couple of minutes between each set then you're golden that's no problem and it's like I can do that all day long right because it's only 30k so it's like it's 30k plus the six minutes and you can fuel 30k so so like I go into those sessions and go well I can do that right so in theory you're running like a 249 right if you can put it off for the full race but it's a completely different thing right because it's 12k short sure so and then there's you know I did another test at one point and some guy was like um oh get yourself to the track if you can run you know 20 minutes uh 4 15s 20 minutes at fours and 20 minutes at 3 45 is in a single stint with no with no break then you know you've got a sub three hour marathon easy and i was like well okay and that session was like really easy and then you know i ran a 307 or something just because obviously running for an hour and running for three hours is well they're just talking about certain skills there's like a 10 800s you can do that's like a yazo or something i think it's called and like that's probably like the VO2 max element.

53:06So it's the, I think it's Yazoo or Yazoo or something along those lines. It's like you run 800s off a certain time and whatever your average is roughly what you should be able to run the marathon. But they're only talking about one element, which might be like VO2. So the three times 10K might be another element, which might be like, maybe you need five elements to be in a great place to run sub three. And what these sessions are doing is tapping into one of five, but they're not tapping into like all five. And so your legs are starting to slow down because you're either getting dehydrated. So sodium plays a role and lack of fuel.

53:40So you're just literally starting to hit glycogen depletion, which unfortunately you can never really experience in training unless you go to 30 to 35 K and you run out of fuel reserves and then you experience it. I would have done that five or six times before I would have raced so I would have I would have already experienced that in training five or six times that feeling and my body would have adapted and been able to handle it even better on race day it wouldn't have faltered it just would like I guess the same as last week I've already done this um how important is that that or I've already done this so like you know when Roger Bannister broke the the first you know four minute mile and everyone subsequently was able to do it, right?

54:22Because somebody did it and then that's been achieved. So maybe I can do it. You know, when you break something like a three hour marathon or for you, maybe it was a, I don't know, a 215 or a 210 or whatever it may have been, how much easier does it become to achieve greater results as a result of, you know, achieving something that felt out of reach in the first place? Well, I think like everything changes. So there's what I'm talking about is having already exposed myself to what race day is going to like throw at me. So when I'm at mile 14 in Dublin Marathon and it's starting to get tougher sooner than I would have liked.

54:59But I can in my head honestly say this is no harder than four or five of my training runs in this build up. So I'm I know you can do this. You cannot argue back with me. We've done it like this is no different. to I literally built the phrase just another Sunday which was built around you did this last Sunday not literally last Sunday because I had a tapered but that was the principle but you can only say that if it's a fact if you know that you dossed around on your like your long runs and you didn't try well then you're suddenly being exposed on race day to something that is foreign and you have no idea if you're going to handle it or not so you have no armor to be like now we're good the other actually being able to do things is like yeah sure like the first time you do it there's two things the first time you do something is probably quite say monumental or heroic and then then you're like well you come you move to a different place because you're like wow I can do that you know what you need to do but it doesn't mean you're happy about it or willing because I know I could go and run which will sound super arrogant but like I and a lot of coaches would tell you I could go and run 208 for a marathon or 207 for a marathon because my 209 wasn't perfect It was London, COVID year, Healstones, wind, not these super fast courses like Valencia or Seville.

56:15But I can tell you the difference between saying something out loud that I could versus I'm willing or I would go do all that work again. There's a mountain of a difference in that. That would be a lot of sacrifice, a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of energy. And so the knowing versus the actual putting in the work is huge. Well, thanks so much for coming in and sharing all of your learnings with us. I found that fascinating. I really, really enjoyed hearing from you and learning from your experience. So thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I hope you guys enjoyed it.