How To Run a 13:06 5K, Best Running Shoes & Long Distance Running Tips | Andy Butchart

0:07You said that running training should be simple. What do you think most runners overcomplicate? To be honest, I think it's from the bottom up, I guess, like the most simplistic thing is just getting the miles and the legs. Like the saying always is like the hardest part of running is getting your shoes on. And like people overcomplicate just even that of like what shoes do I wear? What am I doing today? blah blah it's like just go out and run and enjoy it especially when the weather's nice i'm saying like here just get your shoes on and if you can get some fresh air like go for it how many miles do you reckon you run a week it varies probably like i mean the most i've done mileage is like 120 miles a week but now since i'm getting a bit older i'm a bit more sensible a couple kids probably like around 90 to 100 miles a week is like a pretty sweet spot for me in terms of getting quicker and without getting run down with illnesses and injuries And that sounds like a marathon block you're obviously angling towards a fast marathon So this summer I'm focusing on the tracks I've got come off games in two weeks or two and a half weeks I think and then I'll then move to the roads I'll do a couple half marathons and then all going well I'll probably race a marathon at the end of the year or try and do a debut for the second time.

1:26What happened the first time? I took too many caffeine gels that I hadn't practiced with and then pooed my pants. Luckily in the toilet, but I was like mile 18 in New York. And after it, I just was depleted. I had no fuel, no energy whatsoever. So I saw a friend at about 19 miles and he looked at me and I just gave him a hug and pulled off, sadly. An elite athlete like you, a lot goes into becoming as good a runner as you are how did it feel to have to pull the plug on your debut do you know what so i'm born and bred track athlete sort of thing and i i feel like i'm pretty well-knowledged in that side of the sport i know how to taper for a 5k 10k i know how to train for it with the marathon i was training with um a couple guys that are in mo farah's training group who run like 203 204 so anyway every single time i did a training session I was getting dropped so my mindset going to the marathon was always like I've not trained properly for this I guess because I've been training at too high a level and it was always going to be a failure and it was just a shame that it was like the fueling that was the thing that fucked me up sorry but here it wasn't inevitable but I didn't have the best training block going into it so in terms of now I'm taking a really sensible approach and bringing in some people that I think will be a good part of my team to get me across that finish line as fast as possible.

2:51How long would a training block last for you in an ideal world? I don't think I would look at it like that because I just like to get my mileage as high as possible and keep it consistent for as long as possible. Then it would just be about doing specific long runs through that build, whether that's from four months out, three months out, or two months out. With now having family, kids, I can't exactly just go away for three months and focus solely for that. it's about balance, best bang for buck I'm very happy to adapt to training and understand that there's going to be ebbs and flows, so if I was to say oh I've got a 12 week block if things go tits up halfway through like, I'm fucked whereas if I just give myself a really long time to get that much higher and build that aerobic engine to as high as I can I know that if I get sick for a week it doesn't actually matter that much and I can come back the next week and I'm good to crack on so yeah, never really a time of a build just like from after come off games which is August until a marathon hopefully end of the year I've got four or five months to get my mileage up and get the long ones done and do the specific sessions that I need where did you run your 1306 5k?

4:04London which by the way is just like it's amazing it's an average pace of 237 it's all relative because like I mean per k yeah but it's really because like you always look further ahead so like at the time okay it was very fast but now like people are running sub 13 like every other week sort of thing so like I guess like it was it was back in 2019 I reckon I'm probably in shape just now to run a PB if I had a 5k race that was ready to go which I don't but I mean yeah like London Diamond League is the place to be and that day Farah wasn't there but there was a fair few good athletes and it was just when you When you try and run a personal best, a lot of things have to align.

4:47The weather, the pacing, like you're feeling beforehand. And luckily on that day, I was in good shape and ran pretty fast. Would you fuel your 5K? No, no, no. I mean like pre-fueling, like making sure that you've eaten well, you're not sick, or just that you've fueled your body. Would you gel? No, no, no, no. Not during the race. No, no, no, no, no. Nobody does that? No, not during the race. Maybe during warm-up you'd have a gel, just to get extra carbs in. But I mean, back in 2019, I don't think really had that technology. I don't think. I didn't wear carbon spikes for that. It was like old school spikes.

5:24I'm pretty sure it was, yeah. So I hear, I maybe run like 12.30 now in the new technology. But yeah, I'm going to write. I find it remarkable. When did you start to get really fast? I mean, obviously you've been running for many years. But when did you notice that you had a gift? Do I have a gift? I don't know I think you have a good I guess like I had a year in 2015 and 16 or two years that like I went from being like somebody in the British 5k scene to then being like top 10 in the world and that happened very very quickly I don't know many other people that have had the trajectory that I had and I don't know how that happened or what happened but again like you said I like to keep things simple and during that whole process I really wasn't putting that much effort into it.

6:16And it just came naturally. And I guess looking back, the more I push now, sort of the worse I get in a way. Whereas if I take my feet off the gas and I'm a bit more relaxed, I train better and race better.

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8:19It's quite a cruel thing running. I find that there are times when even just working with your pal, Stephen, I find that there are huge leaps forward, right? Because you follow a training structure for the first time that's really interesting and exciting because half of these sessions I'm running, I've never done before. You know, I didn't know what a fartlek was until I started working with Steven. I'd never, ever trained to heart rate, ever. You know, so the whole thing is kind of new and it feels foreign and it's interesting. And all of a sudden you've got all this data that you can stack up and see progress over time, which again, I've never had before.

9:02But then, you know, some days, you asked me what my run was like this morning and it was just shocking. Like five minute Ks, which I've not ran in ages, like really slow. I wanted to recover. So it was just a recovery run. I was really banged up. Legs were so tight, like cinder blocks. Like running with a pal, he's chatting to me. I was kind of struggling to even make proper conversation because I was just a bit bothered by the run. Like if somebody was to say, you know, I'll give you a bit of cash to run sub 25K, which is all day long easy peasy right for me i could not have done that today no way okay and i just maybe a day off it just yeah no i think a day off is in order but it just feels like um it's strange it just feels like a big step back it feels like you're kind of giving loads of effort and and maybe overcooking it you're right like the last kind of three sessions have been long heavy hard in the sun i think you know there's probably inflammation natural levels of depletion like you know maybe even a touch of exhaustion that you don't really feel I guess I guess it's all about like do you feel like that ever like sorry there was a point to the story do you ever go out to the track and just kind of and you're just not on you can't you can't dial it in and you just feel like shit or not really do you know yeah it happens all the time and like I'm very lucky that like I used to train with Farah quite a lot and like we used to go to the track and if we didn't feel it we just said let's just come back tomorrow like no stress we'll go for a little 10k run and then come back tomorrow and do it again we had obviously the time to do that if you've got a normal nine to five job you can't just do that but like yeah we would i would happily move things around all the time like today i've got a busy day and i was like i usually take one rest day a month maybe two i was like oh i'll take a rest day today and not run like i've got enough my plate and if i am i really going to gain fitness from running today but may something else happen i'm not i'm not stressed anymore but like yeah there are times when i go to the track and i feel like crap but i'm not gonna lie it's not very often because the structure I've got just now with training and the way that my mindset is when I train is I'm fresh most days I don't train so hard that I'm depleted too often um do you drink any alcohol yeah yeah like I had two drinks on the weekend my wife got some good news so yeah like we celebrated and some friends came over and it was my my wee boy's first birthday the other weekend so I think I've drank like three weekends in a row but it's literally like one or two drinks it's not going to affect my performance and and to be honest if it does like i'm at the point in my career where like i'm not too bothered like if i'm half a percent off because i had a little sip of alcohol fine if people want to not drink and be like that then i'm all for it like it makes no stress to me but for me in my life like you're like people make mistakes all the time and i'm happy to like here your father like i don't know what your sleep's like but sometimes I'll sleep maybe like five, six hours a night.

12:00Like, okay, yeah, it's not perfect, but that's probably worse for me than having a sip of alcohol once a month. So yeah, like, it's all relative. It's all, yeah, I don't put too much stress. No, no, agreed. I completely agree. I broadly speaking think... He was like, chin in the bed. I think if you've, you know, I think people broadly speaking are aware of what they're doing, right? So I think if you go out and you light yourself up and then you're suffering training, then, you know, obviously you can point to that as being the reason. I think it's actually almost, it's almost nice to have a clear reason why something's not gone well.

12:38Because sometimes when I'm living life, like looking to really optimize everything and you're still missing where you're supposed to be, then it's a question of, you know, it's more complicated to understand how the gains are made. And some days, you know, you take a day off and you come back and you just absolutely nuke some session and you're five six seconds a k faster than you're supposed to be and the heart rate's five six beats lower and and you just feel fantastic and other days um are just really hard yeah but i think if you i think so this is a mistake i think people people make is like they just think too much about it like they overanalyze what they've they've done and like i mean i'm a big big fan of like sir chris hoy and i remember doing a talk or being one of was talking he was always talking about like you can't change the past or just think about tomorrow and how you can and like that's the way i live just now don't think about like if i missed a split yesterday or i instead of doing 12k i did 10k like it's done like i'll just move forward like small wins every day i guess is a great model to have and that's what i try and do so you're a fan of doing more instead of doing better i'm a fan of no no i'm not a fan of doing more and not at all actually i'm a fan of just i'm a fan of not thinking too much if you've missed stuff like like at the end of the day like let's say you have 12 weeks of training if you miss one session does that really define what the result is going to be probably not because if you've managed to like bankroll the training like i do like a very sufficient amount of training so if i miss a little bit it's not going to define the result at the end of the day if i miss them every single day then of course it's going to accumulate and result in a bad performance but like the way that I look at the things as I don't make too many mistakes.

14:18And if I do, I forget about it. If I have a bad race, I'm like, okay, well, where did that go wrong? What could I have done differently? But, like, usually if that happens, like, there's a clear sign of what's gone wrong. And it's not happened for a while. So hopefully not my bad results. But, yeah. It's like stacking the hard work on top of each other, you know, over time. One bad day won't change the hard work that's gone into that. When you race a 5K, are your splits completely even? it depends on the race so like just now in the sport you have championship style racing and there's like you'd call it I guess like paced racing so like the paced races like you see the diamond leagues or like I mean actually even just like local races now and even in London will have like paced lights on the track to keep everybody on a certain pace so like in those races yeah like you're usually banging out the same pace every lap until you fall off it or you can kick on at the end but a championship style race like British champs, world champs, come off games, European champs.

15:18There's no pace light, so it can be very up and down, which is, I think, a lot more exciting because it's more of a race. And I mean, I'm up for either, but sometimes if the pace for a race could be either too slow or too fast, it can then ruin, I guess, everybody's result. But the championship style racing, it doesn't actually matter how quickly or slow you run. It's about who crosses the line first, which I like. Yeah. But can the pace be slow? like if the pace were slightly slower than perhaps you know you can sustain would you not just push on yeah but the whole purpose of the pace lights is to sort of like i don't know i'll try to give example if i was to hop in like a 5k race at my local track i would be by far the fastest person in that race if the pace was set for a minute slower than my time it's gonna be hard for me just to go off but it's not gonna be very enjoyable just running by myself at the front of the race like you want to be involved in that race so it has to be set up you have to pick your races that are paced that will then fit into your like so is the pace already pre-determined i guess someone will someone will determine the pace whether it's the meet director or like they would ask maybe the fastest person in that field oh how fast do you want to run tonight or whatever and then that's how they would determine the paces cool i didn't really realize that happened yeah no it's like the ones you watch on tv like so so when you watch like a diamond league on tv or even even the major a marathon when they have like the pacers like London what would happen is you would have a come you'd have a meeting the night before the race where like all of the athletes agents would sit in a room with the meet director and I'd I've seen it a bit but they would be like let's say the women's or the men's 800 one person might be like oh I want to go through in 54 and the other agent like no no my guy's faster he wants 53.5 and then they come to an agreement of what that pace should be or same with London Marathon like if Elliot's going for a fast time his agency would come and and say, oh, hey, we've got three pacemakers.

17:09This is what I want them to go through at. Is that okay? Are other athletes happy for that to go ahead? If you're happy to go ahead, fine. If not, then just get in the slower pace group. God, it just goes to show I'm a million miles away from ever being paced professionally. Yeah, I hear it. It's all relative. I guess the further back to you, there's more people around you. So you have pacemakers with the whole field. When you run in the masses, it must be pretty cool. Whereas you'd rather run in the masses, have loads of people around you, than what imagine you get dropped in a marathon and you're literally on your own for 15, 20k like that's a tough feeling because I've been there being like dropped off pace and you're not on it so like is the purpose of the pacing is literally to make the race as fast as possible as fast as possible but like keep everyone together like just kind of almost like or is it just purely for like to make the whole race for the leader to know where they are I suppose now it depends on like the purpose of the race so a great example is London Diamond League is coming up Josh Kerr is going for a one mile world record so that pace will only be towards the lead guys of that group if that makes sense what do you reckon he'll run that in?

18:21I don't even know what the world record is I think the world record is like 340 I should know this because I talk about it with my friend all the time but I think it's like 343 I think that sounds right that's his current I think he's around 344, 345 at the moment So I think he's, I mean, this year I think there's a couple guys that are running really well in that event. And if they are invited or if they go to race it, I think it'll be a tough one to beat them. But like Josh Kerr is a fantastic athlete and it'd be cool to see a world record in home soil. Do you know what pace per kilometre that is?

18:55Fucking quick. Maybe like, I'm going to get it wrong, maybe like 2.23 or something like that? I just like I just it's so hard to fathom that he's running he's running 1.6k at 2.23 pace I mean don't quote me on that someone can do the maths forget it honestly yeah it's quick Josh has been on the show oh he's been on yeah yeah I just find I just find that honestly if you're listening to this buy yourself a Corus or a Garmin get yourself to a track or a park and run as fast as you can you will not get the pace to 2.23 I mean if you went on full stop if you went on let alone for a K points 1.6 k's no if you want you can obviously i don't think i could get the watch to 223 i don't know no without sprinting like i could sprint it maybe which means i could do a couple hundred meters maybe yeah savage it's just savage what is that is that is that that's running economy or style or how how is it that people are able with obviously it's talent and skill and you you know, honing all of these, you know, elements together over the course of a career.

20:02But how is it that people are able to work on their running economy so much that they can travel at that pace without sprinting? It's just, I guess it's just miles in the legs. I guess like they've just trained and conditioned their body so well. The thing with running is like the more you put in, the more you put out. Like Josh Kerr will train very, very well. And each thing between, I guess from the past six months and until his race will have been like immaculate. his diet, how many miles he's running in the week, how many miles he's running at that certain pace in the week. Like he'll have a full team around him that's like on it.

20:34It won't be like, it won't be Josh that's like not in control. I don't know this, but like there's going to be a big team around him that are making sure that he's in the best position possible to like run that time. Isn't it crazy just if you take yourself out of it for a sec, just to consider the mile, right? It's quite far. like 1.6k is a long way to travel and they're literally optimising for like milliseconds like a second maybe at best right to like knock off imagine all the work that's going into trying to find this second. Yeah the percentages are tiny and like I guess the shorter the distance goes like the bigger like the 100m sprint like at the tiniest mistake can create like the biggest impact after nine seconds oh for sure whereas like that's why for the marathon for you like you can make a hundred mistakes in the marathon you can miss a gel and it's not going to ruin the race because you've got I don't know how many k's left like do you know there's always a backup so like yeah for the mile it's that sweet spot in the middle of it's where it's like the golden ribbon event I guess of like here like if things go wrong it can go pretty wrong pretty fast and for your marathon what shoes will you wear?

21:51I mean I'm not I'm not a massive shoe geek guy are you not? it's such a shame we love a shoe now I don't mind it all the shoes are getting pretty good I'm lucky now where I've got the option of what shoes I pick I can speak to most brands and I can get shoes and just now I'm currently I would race in the ASICS Metaspeed Tokyo apparently they're brilliant they're a good shoe I've tried all the shoes the thing like I've got a running style that's like quite poppy already. So like I don't necessarily need like, sometimes the foam, if it's too soft for me, can almost like hinder because I've got a great spring and if a spring on spring doesn't end well, if that makes sense, it almost like counteracts each other.

22:35So like I'm not necessarily looking for like, like my favourite shoe probably wouldn't be your choice and favourite shoe because we'll have different running styles. I find the softer shoes also problematic. Maybe me and you're the same then. Maybe, I'd say that you and I are quite similar. There you go then. So you should try the, I mean, what shoes you got around you? What shoes would you... What shoes would you recommend to me then? You're the... Well, you're light. How much do you weigh? 63. Are you 63 kilos? Yeah. Wow. I've been a lot lighter. Have you actually? I mean, it's power to weight, isn't it?

23:04It's like, I mean, in the past, I think, we tried to get down to like just below 60. Yeah. I mean, I'm 83 right now. Yeah. Jacked. Hinch. Yeah. But the... It's all the protein shakes that you take, probably. I lift weights and all kinds of stuff. Creatine, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, do you? Yeah, I love a bit of creatine. I had a dodgy stomach for about three weeks. I was accidentally taking 36 grams of creatine a day. Is that a lot? I was supposed to be taking like six. You're getting high on creatine. Your veins popping out. It wasn't high, really. I had a lot of water resension. I kind of felt quite big, actually, because my body was clinging on to all of the liquids inside it, and I had really bad diarrhea for three weeks.

23:51Oh, lovely. Are you trimming down? Do you have a weight you want to hit? I know weight's a really touchy subject, but it's a subject that needs to be spoken about a lot because it does matter. Of course. No, no. I would love to race at 78, I think. So what age now you said? I'm 84. Okay, okay. Oh, okay. Oh, I can drop five kilos in two weeks if I needed to, right? But I think when I aggressively drop weight for whatever reason, it's quite hard to retain performance. What I'm finding at the moment is I'm eating like a dump truck, right? Because I'm probably averaging like 15K a day, something like that, average, maybe a touch more, with kind of three, you know, kind of more leery sessions in there.

24:35Even the leery sessions now have gone from being kind of 10, 12K to 17, 19K type thing, like the stuff with the speed in it. Are you going to manage from now until marathon? and like are you going to have it like have you spoken to your coach and thought like how are we going to get to periodize ourselves we'll probably take a break will we and then go back for another block are you going to race or between now and then yeah what do you have on oh I haven't got anything to know can you not announce it no no I can no I'd love to I'm an open book mate I'll tell you whatever you want to know what do you want to do then I'd love to race a few 10k's and then I want to we need in reality to crack an 80 minute half so I'd need to do a 79 something realistically I mean in the lead up and I suppose we'd need to crack at least a 37 minute 10k I don't need to be getting wildly fast either if I can comfortably run a 37 minute 10k I think we're in quite a good spot again Stephen wants me to race a 5k I hate the 5k I really struggle with the much faster stuff so like if I for me dropping the hammer would be at you know 3.30 and I'd struggle to run 5k at that pace I think I'm not sure I think I'd struggle with that and that would be a 17.30 5k.

25:58Stephen wants me cracking 17 minutes in the 5k I'd say I'm miles away from that so I don't know whatever you know I've not I've not raced a 5k. You're not the coach you're just a student so you're just you're doing what you're told. I'm the Padawan Are you a good student? I'm a great student. Do you listen to it? Yeah. Okay fair no no I'll do if Stephen told me to cartwheel naked down Oxford Street and it'll benefit my 245 I would do that okay fair I'm yeah he's like he's my splinter you know I'm a I'm a ninja turtle he's the master okay fair it's good though I'm intrigued to watch what happens like here like I mean I'm not following it too much but like I follow Scullion so like and I did a bit of research to work out what it's going to entail but yeah I'm hoping all the best for you and I'll maybe see you in the start line at the marathon you're doing Valencia at the moment it's in the plans yeah Valencia is the plans end of the year I feel like it's the marathon that everybody wants to do to run faster to whatever I can run if I can go sub 210 that'd be fantastic I understand the distance having trained for it before I understand it's not a walk in the park I'm obviously I'm not I'm coming from a distance of 5k 10k that's like very quick and I know that my training needs to change drastically for me to be better I'd love to have that problem.

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29:04I mean, it's not the worst thing to... The thing is, I've got options. If I wanted to stay on the track, I finished second at British Champs the other week, so I'm still one of the best in the country at track running. Who do you come second to? A guy called David Malarkey, who's a very good runner, obviously, because he won. Malarkey? Yeah, he's a good guy. And he's coming through the ranks. Are you faster than Alfie Manthorpe? A lot. Are you? Yeah. Oh, I thought. I thought he was like, I thought he was indoor champ. I'll tell you, Alfie's actually got faster 10k on the road than me. But I think that's probably, oh no, actually maybe a half marathon too.

29:45But in general, I mean like every day we train together, he's having to sit behind me. He's sandbagging and I'm taking the reps like, and he's just like moaning about the weather or whatever it is. And then here, I'm just a, he's like my student in a way I'll try to get him to get better Alfie's on a good trajectory but he's got a lot to improve on but no what did he run in London? he ran 2.14? no no no I think 2.10.40 oh fuck you so he's a much faster man than I have but in the summer he's getting dropped and his wheels came off didn't they? in London? yeah I think most people's wheels came off in London to be fair I think the thing is if your wheels fall off and he finished hats off to the guy for like finishing with that because I'm there's actually there's nothing worse than a shit day out at the marathon I mean I think do you know the thing I actually spoke to I mean this is nothing against London and I would I would like to run it next year but like I do think as a Brit it's not a disadvantage but like the crowd must I mean I've paced London a couple times and the crowd are incredible but in terms of like you're talking about your stats like keeping your heart rate low like if someone's shouting like go on you're going to be elevated in general.

30:59So I think it's harder for a British elite, or even anyone, to be honest, to race London Marathon to run fast because it's going to be hard in front of a home crowd that are screaming at you to keep everything on a down, if that makes sense. And Alfie, he gets hyped up and he gets in his own head a lot, I think. So it would have been a harsh one. But here, I was happy that he finished his first marathon and he's a faster marathon than I am. well currently currently currently yeah but me and Alfie train well together is that the pace 4? this is the pace 4 I think look at us brother yeah I mean I I told you we're the same there's a few watches that I like to try this is just now this is doing bits I've tried a couple others it's good isn't it?

31:43here yeah I mean to be honest I'm not that techy with like stuff I know you hate this chat but like I mean I'm old school I'm like a dinosaur in the sport and like I run off how old are you? how old do you think I am? I'm 34 are you? 37 so you see we're not that far apart there's so much similarity to be honest apart from the general running standard yeah the obvious I mean if you're stuffing Alfie at the track I probably won't suggest that we go running together it's a bit harsh to say I'm stuffing Alfie at the track Alfie if you're watching this I don't mean that in a bad way in the track we raced the other weekend in 5k and I think I was around 30 seconds faster in a 5k.

32:26But Alfie's got very good running economy on the road racing circuit. It just so happens in the summer it's not so much road racing circuit as track. So I'm sure in the winter he'll destroy me in the winter and stuff like that. Do you race in spikes then? Yeah. Your 5k's at the track? Yeah, yeah, yeah. These kind of spikes? Which ones? I guess so. Do you like those Larry Leppard ones? They're a bit fast for me, I think. these yeah i'm not sure my achilles would do well on these why are they for sprinting yeah i think they're so what kind of what kind of difference is there so is there a i guess it's i guess there are track shoes with a bit with a bit of tech in them yeah oh oh mate those are just raw oh no like the tech and track spikes are probably i mean i wouldn't say they're greater than they are in road shoes but i mean it's similar like if you look at the times of the track there's no there's obviously coincidence with like technology as to why times are getting faster same as the road like the amount of money that brands are putting into the tech these days is insane and i'm sure in five years time we'll look back and think oh my god there are the carbon shoes we rest in there so shit right now they're incredible blah blah like it's gonna happen like i'm amazed with uh scullions 209 in like under armor no plates like honestly like because i'm you'll obviously Scullion, don't you?

33:44You're a big fan. Yeah, I am. Yeah, yeah. No, I am. I am. No, I think he's very interesting. And the way he speaks to running resonated with me. I mean, like I said, like, I've known Scullion a long time and, like, he's definitely not the most talented of runners. I don't mean that in a bad way. The thing is, he's the hardest, one of the hardest workers out there. He's like the old track horse. yeah I mean he just keeps going and he's gritty so like he I think like before Skyland had ran 209 or I think it's 209 like there's no way you would have if you were a betting man it would have been the worst bet ever to put money on him because he like hadn't shown much like promise but then like he found a way that he could bank week after week he like he came to train with me and Farah and stuff like that he's spoken about it before he was on training camp in Fontenot and after that he ran his, maybe I take a bit of credit for his performance.

34:45I don't know. But no, he's a beast. He's a beast. And like, again, I'm sure he would say that he's not the most talented athlete. He wouldn't, I don't think he would find that offensive. He says that he has an extraordinary running economy, which I can believe. So like when I see him running 320s with me, right? Well, that's me broadly speaking flat out, right? Before going into a sprint, I'm at 320, right? So call it 320, 315, whatever. He looks like he's just like walking to Tesco's. Yeah, but it's relative. Like what's his marathon pace for 209 is going to be what? 302 per K? Something like that?

35:25303 per K? Yeah, something like that. So what's your marathon per K? My new marathon pace is going to have to, well, for 244.50, which is obviously the 245 sounds nicer but I want to crack the 245 is 354 exactly so 354 so if you were running at 415 per K like you're going to be feeling pretty smooth at that pace and that's relatively how Scully feels running 355 oh so look at this so I not to toot my own horn but I went for a run the other day and Scully was like keep it under 150 heart rate which for me is zone 2 and he was like kind of push the pace as far as you can but keep your heart rate at 150 I just want to like see where you are with stuff and go and run 12k and I was faster than my previous marathon pace but you're obviously in shape but look at that so I was running I think it was 3 no sorry 409 or something average in zone 2 brother what shoes did you run I was wearing my Adi Zero Prime X3s which are my I just, I, I, I, I personally think I should have a deal with them.

36:36Are they cheat shoes? Huh? Are they like cheat shoes or are they like, are they like, Well, it depends what you mean. So, so, so. They wouldn't be legal for you to wear them, I don't think. Okay, so see when you like, so like, so I, like, I like to wear like, not the worst shoes. What do you mean by a cheat shoe? Shoes are going to aid performance. Like. Well, yeah, they're a super shoe. Yeah, okay, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're doing an easy run in super shoes. So we should just end the podcast because you shouldn't really, you shouldn't, you shouldn't tell listeners to like easy run in super shoes.

37:00they should be running in like shoes that are going to help tone their legs and help build muscle and not like beat around the bush of how fit they are so you can take back all that mate I'm not going to lie you should be wearing like you should be wearing like I don't know something like these things they're probably worse than them to be honest like you should be wearing like just this like non-plate these things yeah aren't it what are they Vomero plus maybe just a Vomero I'll wear a Vomero for most of my runs I think if I did most of my runs in Vomero's I'd be like in the physio daily my legs are fucked when I run on these if you were to wear Vomero's for all of your running and then you were to put on your Adidas Prime X Zone 15 zoom shoes yeah it's like how good you would feel doing that run yeah I do no no but if you trained in like worse shoes when you put your good shoes on you'd be like oh my god like I feel unbelievable I don't do all my runs in the Prime X3's I just happen to do that but you did that that easy run it wasn't supposed to be an easy run I was supposed to see how much pace I could extract I'm going to have a work with Scully and say like every easy run, he has to wear like red and butter shoes.

38:02I said to Scully, listen, I'm going to wear the Prime X-3s. And he said, don't do that. And I said, I want to see what I can extract time-wise, pace-wise, sorry, from the session. Okay. And he said, oh, well, if you have to type thing. Yeah. But it did feel easy and it was great. But like for me, running at 409s before, like so for Tokyo Marathon, for example, my average pace was 410. for that's 257 pace is 410. Like my heart rate would have been 165 for that race quite early on. And I would have been like, you know, gritting into it slightly. This was like, I felt like I was walking the dog. Yeah, but this is what I'm saying.

38:42So like relative, it's like your training for Tokyo, I'm sure has been a lot. I mean, it probably wasn't as structured, I guess. There's hardly any structure. Exactly. So like, it's a no brainer. It's like the thing is that I would say to anyone who's getting better at running is like, if you can bank like months years whatever a volume into your legs you're going to get better and that's the cool thing about running that's what you said when you spoke to scullion and like the reason you've like taken this journey on is like yeah if you put good work in you're gonna have that moment where you're like looking at your watch oh my god i remember a year ago running at this pace and i felt like shit and now i'm like chilling having a ciggy like doing whatever you know like we were talking about ciggies earlier do you barely see anyone smoking ciggies anymore Do you use a smoker?

39:25No, I'm not. Not at all. No, no. Only on your easy runs. I would more so be a smoker than a vapor, I'd say. Yeah, no, me too. Well, one looks kind of cool still. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one just makes you look like a knob. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like... I'm not... I don't care. I've never touched a cigarette, to be honest. Have you not? I've seen people... Like... I was about to say this is nothing against vapors, but it is. It is against vapors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, people carry around these things that are like the size of a MacBook, you know, and they're just like, like just sucking the shit into their face, right?

39:59And then just blowing out like, like they look like dragons, right? Walking down the street. And you can't help but think that's obviously fucking bad for you. Yeah. What are you doing? You walk through. How often are you doing this? It's like you're charging it. Smells like strawberries and peach. Oh, mate, like. No, a good old fashioned Marlboro gold if you have to have one. I don't know what that is. It's just a cigarette. Like it's just a cigarette, you know. If you're going to have a few pints on a Sunday afternoon and light up a cigarette, so be it. But don't vape. Is this a previous life?

40:29Are you into that? I've been into all kinds of stuff, my friend. That's not this podcast. I was never really a smoker. I went through little periods of smoking, but not really. I was never a pack-a-day kind of bloke. Fair. Rather than vaping, for sure. Oh, for sure. If I had to do one, you'd obviously do the thing that kind of sort of looks cool still. there yeah strawberry mango fucking vape yeah there's that guy something something this is Jack Hanley he like runs like crazy times at back yard ultras but he used I think he was an alcoholic or something yeah and like alcoholics and drug addicts make fantastic ultra athletes oh yeah for sure he smashes a back yard literally as he crosses the finish line he just he just pulls pulls a cigarette out and just like starts like start before like start line it sounds it's a little bit image yeah it's cool though it's very image it's very image it's cool though there was a guy I saw a picture I don't mean to like hate on the guy but there was a guy and I was not hating him because I he does good things but there's a guy Johnny Davies yeah he was in here last week oh was he he like took a ciggy out after doing like some other stuff I'm like mate I don't actually mind if you have a cigarette but it doesn't need to be like part of the context yeah I agree have it on your own time or are you not having it then that's the thing see if I think you're only doing it because it's the content.

41:52No, but see if you're post-op, if I was to finish the Olympics or whatever, and I had a cigarette and I did it, like, yeah, you look an idiot. But if every day I put that post-op and I became the ciggy guy, that's cool. But if you're just like pretending or whatever it is, I think it's a bit naff. I'm convinced that these lads probably don't smoke. But for whatever reason, they smoke at the end of a race. Which is wild, isn't it? It's just like, why are you doing that? What does progression look like for you as an elite runner? You know, as somebody who is slightly under sub three, you know, to shave off 15 minutes or whatever is achievable given, you know, the lack of tailored training before.

42:33So all of a sudden, you know, it's kind of starting from a zero base and you get given all these shiny tools that make you faster. For you, who's been running extraordinary times for years, you know, how do you look at progress? I mean, progress comes from results, for sure but the way that that comes it's exactly the same as what it would be like for you it would be like looking I mean let's just say you're already working at like 95 % of what you could do in the week it's trying to work out like am I doing too much here or too little there like should I be adding in stuff but you have to take things out so it's almost like it's about balancing that load through the week of like are you doing enough of X to gain Y if that makes sense but I mean the margins at the top level are so so small that like even like half a percentage off could be the difference between like, I mean like making a final or not making a final.

43:27So like the tough thing with athletics and sport, especially athletics, is like the margins are small. So like you can't, I mean I speak to like a physio at a football team and he was saying like footballers, they can be playing at like 85 % because they're getting held up by their team. Like their team can support them, et cetera. So they have a niggle. Whereas in athletics it's like, no, it's literally just you. and you're racing against guys who are like unbelievably ready to be on the start line. So like progression is such a hard thing to actually achieve at the top level because you're already at the top level, if that makes sense.

44:01The cool part in running when you're just starting is you will see progression from a very early stage and you will get better very quickly. I guess like the faster you get, the smaller those margins become. But the reward is even more at the top level because you may like break a national record or you may win a race at a high level. So like, yeah, progression is tough at the top, but like everyone has their ceiling. And yeah, I'm looking forward to finding my ceiling at different events that have not necessarily cracked like the half marathon and the marathon in the future. And I guess I'll be in the thing where like, I may make a big jump in the half marathon with my PB and where I finish in races because I'm pretty untapped.

44:46What is your PB? Oh, you're pretty what, sorry? No, I did that on purpose. Okay. Come on. Come on. My PB is 61.45 at Barcelona this year. And to be fair, I actually had a shocking race, paced very poorly and probably didn't quite, when you talk about being like 100 % or 99%, I was probably like 96, 5 % in terms of like my nutrition beforehand when I flew out like where I was staying like the night before the race what I ate like these little things add up when you're trying to run very fast at the general like population of like the masses like those things don't really make a massive difference because your training in the build up is what makes a difference whereas at the top all of you are fit on the start line and it's the little things that that need to go right so yeah hopefully I've got a big big improvement to make on the half marathon and across the finish line of a marathon would be nice.

45:43Like, would you be looking to crack 60? Yeah, yeah. There's no reason why someone of my calibre couldn't do that. That's pretty awesome. Do you look at your 5K time and think, you know, I'm keen to crack 13 or do you not really care? I mean, sometimes I'm like, it would be nice. But, like, for me, like, a 13 or 6, I still just can't, I can't even imagine. like it's 13 minutes for me I've got like I've got 1306 on one side which I'm like oh yeah it's pretty cool and it wouldn't be nice to go sub 13 but on the other hand like I've got like a 6th place at the Olympics in the 5k like a 10th 11th place at the Olympics 8th place at Worlds like for me that matters way more like those being ranked in the world like so high is for me more important than like running sub 13 because I mean like loads of folk have run sub 13 it doesn't faze me that much maybe like back when i was just training with farah it was literally just him in the uk that done it but now everyone's doing it so i'm not that bothered about it yeah anything shock you training with farah uh mate farah's such a good guy like honestly he's it's another thing that mo is very good at and the reason i'd say he was one of the or probably was the best or he was is the best in the world um like he was very good at like switching on when it mattered like you could have an easy run and he would just back off and he would chill and he would chat whatever blah blah and then you go to the track and he was on it like on it and like i struggled to be like he was just able to do these incredible things on the track when it mattered and i have no idea like his brain is just like no thing mo is like and i love mo but he's like he he's so like dumb he doesn't understand that he's so dumb he doesn't understand that what he's doing is mad if that makes sense like you shouldn't be able to do that it's not physically possible to like run some of the splits that he was doing in training and he was just like had no idea that what he was doing was incredible and I'm sitting there like how am I meant to race this fucking idiot when like I can't do that like it's just like not there Mo in my opinion is just the best of all time 5k, 10k guy like he's the GOAT for sure and yeah he again he was able to What's his PB?

47:58So he's not got the British record anymore 12.53 was his best time and think now it's 1244. But his accolades are endless. Who's running that? George Mills has got it. But his accolades are unbelievable and George is still on his way up and he's not won too much yet. It's all relative, if that makes sense. Moe is the GOAT, for sure. There's no question about it. How long could you keep up with Sebastian Saway? I don't know. He went through halfway in, what, 60-ish? It was slightly over 60 and then he negative split and did 59, 20 or something in the second half. And so his last 510 and 10K were faster than Scullion's PBs.

48:45Oh, it's just levels, isn't it? I reckon I could get through halfway on a really, really good day. But I mean, it's just incredible. It's just incredible. I don't know how Sebastian Savi trains or what else. I mean, yeah. Incredible.

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50:15Your Commonwealth Games in two weeks. Yes, two weeks. But here, no, I can tell you something. I've got this plan, and it's not a plan, but like it would be so, so funny. but I would probably get in trouble for it imagine if I put on a costume like a Spiderman costume or something like that you couldn't see my face and then run on the marathon and just be up there until halfway and they're like who the fuck is Spiderman like doing like and you would never be found out you could just like zoom off do it mate yeah but but you'd have to start in the elite pen for that to work no I could get up there you could get up there what from behind you could get like you could get there from like the you could get like a championship entry or something like that like because you only want to be you need a 238 for that I have to do that in one eye.

50:54But imagine that like being like in your gear and then like last minute pulling out your pocket like a pool suit and just putting it up. That would be great. But the issue is that I'm good friends with the meat organiser and stuff like that and I'm not sure it's the best for the BBC to see that. I think it would be a bit of a like FU moment which I'm not really up for doing until the end of the day. I think it's a bit of a vibe isn't it? Here if you're a sponsor and you want to like get it together let's do it. Okay let's have a think. Would you wear an untapped logo on your Spider-Man outfit?

51:21They're not sure the budget can go that high. Because then people might think it's me. It'd be great. But then they'd see how fast they were running and be like, oh, obviously can't come here. God, he's coming on a lot. His accent's a bit different. He's lost a lot of weight. He's always had that bounce, though. Look at those Adidas Prime X 3s. They're illegal. So I know that you've said that you're not a shoe nerd, but I do think that your opinion will still be valued by our listeners. What is your favorite road race shoes? If you had to run your marathon PB tomorrow, what would you wear? Normal, just like, you know, 80 % of training.

52:07So what you were saying earlier, just like the shoe that you would just wear to do your normal runs in. And then maybe, I don't know, just like a speed shoe like a special like a 5k shoe like a not track though okay what would you wear for your fastest possible 5k attempt on the road marathon yeah and kind of normal training I guess like my normal training shoe the shoe that I wear the most is a Nike Vomero 18 it's a very good all round shoe I mean I could run pretty fast on it if I had to but it's just a very good daily shoe yeah if I could if I could race a marathon I would probably try and get my hands on the Adras shoe that they wore for sub 2 but I've not held it yet or felt it so the shoe that I like the most just now is the Asics Metaspeed Sky Tokyo I'm going to butcher that but I think that's correct another shoe do you know what there's a shoe that I actually have in my rotation that I really like and it's not like I wouldn't say it's like the fast 5k shoe but it's like a middle ground shoe it's like called a butcher again it's like a Sokane Azura shoe I think it's carbon plated but it's like pretty it's probably like if you had to buy one shoe like bang for buck like to do everything that would be the shoe you should buy because you could do easy runs in it and you could run a marathon in it and I like to use that a fair bit so yeah they're my three go to shoes I'd say beautiful stuff pleasure great I had another question for you but it slipped my mind go on well I would if I You can chat to me in the lobby or whatever.

53:42You want to get something off your chest. I know what I was going to say. Go on then. It's back. Yeah. Are you around mid-September? It depends. On? What you're going to ask me. Are you physically here or not? I could be. I could be. I could be anywhere. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Mid-September. Yeah. Watch this space. Untapped is going to throw an awesome event. Is it? Okay. Mid-September. Okay. I think I'm going to race Great North Run that month. When's that? I think it's a Sunday, so you're not going to do stuff on Sunday, are you? We're doing Saturday. Well, there you go. Saturday morning. Okay, fine.

54:22Potentially. Let's do it. We were talking about cigarettes earlier. There's a Chinese runner called Uncle Chen, who's 52 years old and runs a 328 whilst chain-smoking the entire marathon. That's why he's so fucking slow, then. No, that's incredible. Is it? Yeah, that's incredible. I could run a 328 and also smoke cigarettes along the way. In 20 years? What do you mean? He's 52 years old. You need to get context from that. Is that even longer then to prepare? That is impressive, but it's also like, why? Yeah, I don't like the people who do a marathon and juggle. It's like, what, you're just like, not that good.

55:02No, or racing Crocs. Like, why are you racing Crocs? You're making it worse. Like, I don't get that. I also find it slightly annoying. but also I don't really I don't place any value in Mr. Chen's skill to be honest there yeah if he was if he was juggling and smoking it'd be better like juggling Siggy as well if you could nail a bottle of Johnny Blue in there as well then he's got my attention he's coming on the podcast next yeah yeah we'll get him in if he can do that but not just the smoking come on mate

55:39Thank you.