How To Run a 5K PB, HYROX Controversy & Olympic Heartbreak | Holly Archer

0:04I'm not an elite athlete and you are, so you're the interesting one. I don't know, I don't know about that. Define elite, what is elite? Well, why don't you define elite? So you last year were on the elite start for the marathon, so obviously you must be doing something to be considered an elite athlete. Yeah. I think you are an elite athlete, by the way, obviously, with what we're about to get onto, but why don't you define elite? What does that mean? I mean, elite athlete is, at the moment, it's hard, right, with the space of social media and like people, you know, achieving all these different goals depending on what you're doing.

0:35Like I am in a niche and I guess I am an elite in my niche, which is I started at 1500 meter, more middle distance. So I got a European silver medal over the 1500 first. So I've got the strength and the speed. And I think I've built that up, you know, since I was young, since I was 12, I've been running. and I mean then I've been in a system going to the school in the US you know being in a pro system in altitude so you just learn how to be an elite in terms of it's not just the running it's not just the training it's the mindset like we were talking about it's the food it's the nutrition it's the day in day out consistency it's the pressure it's dealing with race day it's dealing with your head on race day so I think that is an elite but are you paid as a professional does that make you an elite because I guess for a couple of years I wasn't which is why then I kind of left kind of middle distance left the goal of making the Olympics so I missed out on 0.02 of a second um back in 2021 for the Tokyo yeah hang on wait let's not brush over that yeah let's let's let's let's and then mentally I got ruined from that but really yeah that's such an interesting point I didn't I first I didn't know that um that's like you know formula one style yeah Yeah.

1:50Like lap differences. That's literally nothing. Yeah. And what does that, what did that mean to you? And what was the kind of torment of it? Like, can you explain the feeling of missing out by something so insignificant? Yeah, well, we'll go back. So I was working full time for a pharmaceutical company in Cambridge. I was doing that, helping with the marketing. And I got really, really fit. I'd come back from the US where I went to university. and I'd come back working a full-time job and I was still training like I still wanted to train around my job like if you're an athlete or if you enjoy fitness you still do it right in the morning or the evening it almost helps you do your job so anyway sorry no I'm really laughing because Simon and I have had a massive chat about this this morning yeah well like I think the general assumption is that I just don't work right so that I've got loads of time to just do whatever I like and I'm still like a bit shit yeah I mean uh so anyway I'd like to counter that with I I do work and I do what you're describing I run in the morning or the evening and that's just how anyone that works who I think is everyone yeah I think I think the difference is with pro athletes right is they prioritize just their training session so they wake up and go okay the main things to do today are to run and to go to the gym but then they've still got all the other admin but like that gets put second whereas everybody else has to do their admin and their job first and then they put their runs around it which means that sometimes you're like you're under fueled or you're overtired or you're not properly mentally prepared right but yeah so I was working earning a living.

3:28Why do you say working like you're inverted commas in it? I was I was full-time work nine to five working in market pharmaceutical marketing and then I was they loved me still training I'd go out in my lunch break and be like right see you lads I'm off I'm off to train and then I'd train after work because traffic was bad anyway so I'd just go straight to the track get a track session done and then drive home and I was doing that and then all of a sudden I got really really fit even fitter than when I was when I was out in the US and like from 18 to 23 you're at a D1 university I was on a full ride scholarship which is almost like you're semi-pro because the facilities out there are incredible like the football team the basketball team like we were having cryotherapy we were having cupping all back in like this was back in like 2012 2013 so I was living the life cupping is that thing where they put the cups on your back you see all these little suction cups and you're like what is that they like bruise you yeah yeah yeah and just all of that like the first time I ever saw somebody with with cup marks on their back I was like I was legitimately quite like oh my goodness the aliens exist yeah like what is going on are you good but um yeah it's just blood flow to the surface of the skin and getting it away from the muscle and um I mean we were just treated like royalty there so I got used to kind of like being an athlete and and performing at a level and also it's your job out there like I was getting a full ride scholarship which means like it's not just oh just go and have fun they expect performance they expect you to win conference and do well for the school so when I came back like I was like right I just kept that that mindset of I'm still going to train I'm not just going to stop training.

5:03And then I got really, really fit. And then, you know, I asked my company, I was like, look, if I need to make the Olympics, what for me, the thing is that I need having looked at everybody else, the thing that they've all got and I don't, is like the ability to train at altitude and like the ability to train at a group with everybody else doing the same thing with the same mindset, like day in, day out. So I asked them to fund me to go to Flagstaff in Arizona and do a six-week camp. And that meant flights, accommodation, rental car. And I'd get up at five o 'clock in the morning to do my calls, but then I could train with the group in America at 9 a.m., which was like 3 p.m.

5:43over here. And then train again in the evening, and then I'd do all my work in the evening and get an early night. And that's what I did, and I went and got my medal for European Indoors, got a silver medal, unsponsored, working full-time in pharmaceuticals. And I was like, okay, now I can get a sponsor. Now I can really take this to the next level. And then that was it. Like once you get a taste of something, like once you do well at it, like you're, you just, you can't stop. I'm like, right, that's it. I'm going back. I'm doing it all again. I had like a checklist of 20 things I'm doing every day.

6:17Like I'm getting up, I'm stretching electrolytes. I'm hitting my session hard. I'm having a mantra. I'm going do this for 30 days I'm making the Olympics and then basically how the UK like the UK is such a strong team like America's a strong team UK's a strong team Australia's a strong team Germany's a strong team so therefore your targets for 1500 or like what the UK accepts is tougher than most that's why sometimes you have like loads and loads of heaps of the 100 meters before you know before the main quarterfinals, semifinals and finals. So I had to be ranked in the top 48 in the world in order to go to the Olympics.

6:54And then second criteria for the UK is you go to your British champs and you need to get top three. So I'd done the top 48. I was ranked like 40th in the world. I was like, brilliant. I've done all the races. I went to the champs, got through the heat because the heat is always the day before. And then all I had to do was come top three and I came fourth by 0.02 of a second we were all on the line and like as brutal as that was like that was three months of preparation of leaving the UK going to do this chasing a contract chasing the Olympics and then gone.

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9:34Did any of the race not feel great or were you fast in the race? It was tactical. It's always tactical. When there's like a medal on the line, you'll see at the Olympics finals, they are always tactical because you don't want to take the lead. There's wind and also like, I don't know what it is. It's like being in a peloton and cycling as well, like sitting behind someone. You're just tracking them them and you're you're getting like a little bit of something off of them um so in the race I was sitting in I was like no I've got this I've got this and then we were all just flat out on the last hundred meters in a line and it was just like who's gonna go first who's gonna buckle first and I thought I had it in the bag but I didn't and I think it can come down to so many things like nerves from the night before too much pressure on yourself just being slightly in the wrong position and having to go wide a bit too much.

10:22Like there's so many things in track racing that could have caused it. But I think the hardest thing was going home, watching all the Olympic selection come out of Monday, the following Monday. So this was like on a Saturday. And then the following Monday, I had to wait for the Olympic team to be selected and announced on social media. And then just like being able to get out of bed and like, what do I do now? Like, what am I going to do now? Like that's Olympics gone. There's another four years to wait. That was my bid to try and get a contract with the team. like who's going to want me now I didn't I didn't make it um and like what's my purpose now like what is what I did everything like everything possible and I still wasn't good enough so I think that was the hardest bit is like mentally how do you get over that how do you go over like I did altitude I had the group I did I ate right I slept right I gave myself absolute every possible chance and I wasn't good enough so how do you get over it I didn't I didn't I still think it eats me up because maybe, maybe you get over it by thinking like, okay, you can be good enough, but it might take two more years at that.

11:27Like the first marathon you do, the second one's better. The third one's better. Like five years later, you'd be like, oh, because of the strength over duration is what builds you up as well. It's sometimes not about age or fitness. It's about the strength over time. And maybe if I'd kept at that 1500 meter work, but unfortunately after that like things kind of just went south in terms of I over trained after that I signed with a brand that probably shouldn't have signed with it wasn't right for me at the time and then I kind of didn't get better I was better off doing the full-time job so I should have stayed there it's an amazing story it's it's it's quite tragic in a sense it's such a shame like your energy is so palpable and you're clearly such a competitive person did the dream ever go away like no because then I signed with a team so I after that I signed with with with Under Armour I'm not sure if we can we can shout Browns out but I signed with Under Armour and went over to to America and I was like right well I'll I'll get the world champs I'll go back to a Europeans and and you know I was really up for it and energetic and like right okay we'll get back to the drawing board um but then like you work you want it too much that you overwork like you I was probably training too hard I was putting too much mental pressure on myself and like lost the spark of chasing like a contract in the Olympics unsponsored and like my own fire because then it was given to me and then I was put in a group and put in a team where you're just one of many you're not yourself like it's like being joining a company where you're just no one really knows your name anymore but versus being in your own company so I think I lost like my fight and then never improved for for a couple of years and then decided to call it and go back to the drawing board and come back home.

13:14Stephen Scullion and I were recently talking about the importance of setting goals, trying to achieve them, but also remaining in love with the sport. So also running the odd marathon without any purpose, just to remind yourself that you love running and to take it all in and to not chase a PB every time. you know it was his opinion that if you're always constantly trying to get faster then you're going to drive yourself crazy when you when you're not able to achieve the time because we're human beings and you know things might line up on the day perfectly they might not i always love talking to him because he's just a calming kind of knowledgeable source yeah you know such a fast runner himself but and he's been in it from the get-go you know the pre-covid the the pre-super shoes you know he's been he's been it from the start imagine running a 209 with no super shoes it's insane isn't it yeah he did that in london did he do that in london at the lockdown one did he talk about the lockdown marathon he did where they just did loops they did loops around the mall i think it was like a mile loop and they just did it like 24 times that was pretty we have to talk to him about that oh wow yeah 26 hopefully 26 yeah i think it was 1.1 mile take us through the process of signing for a brand and you can talk about brands by the way weird this podcast is sponsored by brands and perhaps under armor might fancy a stab at us not anymore see how the story goes

14:46no so to be honest I didn't know much about it but the world of pro sports is brutal like having now come away from, I wouldn't say, that's why I said, I don't know if I'm elite now, because I was in an elite pro field where it's like, you only pro with contracts on like, you know, 25K if you sign, if you race this, if you win or, you know, 50K if you make the Olympics and 100K if you win the Olympics for your brand, right? So you've got all of these little like bonuses, I say little, not little, bonuses in your contract based upon performance. So that's like a pro world. So after I did what I did and got a medal that kind of was like okay she deserves or I guess somebody's like right we'll pick her up and we'll try and get her to the next step which would be Olympics right so I signed with Under Armour and you sign with an agent basically and the agent kind of sorts you out picks you a brand but I didn't really I just signed too quickly and I was naive and it was my I was excited and I just wanted to get to the Olympics so I signed far too quickly I didn't assess all the brands I didn't see all my options and I probably just went to the one that I thought would be best for me instead of having like having an outside like look and maybe talking to more brands and seeing more environments what killed me wasn't the brand it was the environment it was like the training group it was being away it was overtraining it was not having that purpose not having that love not having that fire that you're talking about um and just being too like this this this this is all that matters and like when you're in an environment like at Flagstaff I don't know if Scullion talked about that but they are all like is Jakob Ingebrigtsen it's you know everybody is like top five in the world at their like discipline and you get so consumed and like you're training and you just need to keep up and you just don't want to get dropped and you don't want to look like you're not good enough to be there so everything's just so intense and I remember crying over like I come home and I did a 5k around Batsy Park and around like 1541 or something like that for a 5k and i remember it now because i just think back and go oh my god i sat on the floor and cried i was like that's awful i was like i am awful and like that that's what it does to you because actually i'm 40 seconds behind people in olympic level so like that that's terrible as a pro so and especially if somebody i'm a shit pro so i guess i was as well but like i guess like if somebody overtakes you that doesn't have a contract as well, that gets in your head.

17:19So, you know, if you've got a contract, like you need to be here, like you can't, you can't be getting dropped. You can't be getting beat by people that aren't on a contract. And I guess when I was doing really well, it was when I was a person that didn't have a contract and I was beating all the ones that have one, right? So you get spurred on without the pressure. There's a shift, right? In kind of expectation almost, like when you're the underdog and there's less pressure on you to perform, you're starving hungry and you can you know chase down the people ahead of you and there's there's a kind of wind in your sails whereas when you're expected to win or when you're kind of in that comfortable position of people know that you can do it yeah there's there's almost less pressure there's less chasing you um you know with sebastian saway's performance at the marathon had he had he not been chased to the very end would he would he have edged that extra bit of performance you know maybe maybe not It was a two-horse race right until the very end, which at that level is remarkable in itself.

18:18And that's what you need. That's what you need to get that kind of level performance. Pretty amazing that Kelvin Kipton's world record that stood for a while wouldn't have made the podium in London. That's unreal. Yeah, but did he have three people around him for as long as time? And I think that's, like you were talking about, if you're expected to win, you have everything to lose. And if you're not expected to win, you have everything to gain. So, you know, they're all sitting in there, them three, they pushed each other to the limit. But, you know, they all probably had pressures on them internally, externally, you know what I mean?

18:53And they knew what they had to achieve as well within they know what was on the line, you know. It's not just talking a world record. There's so many other things behind it, you know. So, yeah, the power of when you're in it as well, like when you've gone 26 miles, you're not going to let it go off over 200 meters, are you? You're going to find another gear if you can. I'd love to talk to you about different distances. You're a pretty versatile athlete. You're also a big name in high rocks, which I'd love to get onto as well. But just as you mentioned the 5K, I'd love to just touch on 5K tips and strategies and then potentially do the same for 10K.

19:38And then talk a little bit about how, whether or not being an incredible runner affects your strength and high rock. So sorry, a lot to unpack there. Let's start with the 5K. What is your strategy with the 5K? You mentioned being very disappointed with the 1541. I think most people will never achieve anything near that. But just for you to run the perfect five kilometers, everyone else not so so off the track not racing you're in battee park say you want to run the best 5k you possibly can what's your strategy don't go out too quick like you would in the the faster you go like a marathon you're not going to produce as much lactic acid right so the psychology the science behind it is you know with a 5k the faster you go you're going to go faster in a 5k than you are for a half marathon or a marathon well you should and the the faster you go off means the more lactic acid you're going to produce so if you go off fast in a 5k because you're you're going at such like force you've just produced more lactic earlier on don't usually produce lactic in a marathon where you shouldn't because you're kind of trying to stay controlled relaxed and not like push this pace so a lot of people go out really hard in a 5k and then they get zapped with lactic and then they start going downhill.

21:01So the best way to do it is to actually ease in just like you would with a marathon, but that is hard in a 5k because you have this perception of like, I need to go quick. Um, and then you do want to get some pace behind you, but the, I would want a group with me that are going to help me pace sit in like you would like in cycling, like a little, like a little Peloton, because again, you want to stay locked in on that pace and not dropping off. So going out steady, even splits is what people say to try and do because even though it's even splits, it's not even effort. You wouldn't want to negative split it?

21:33It's just really hard to do because of the effort, right? So let's say if you even split it or negative split it and got quicker, the effort of that last 1k is going to be harder than the first k. So let's say we're doing 320 per k, 1640. Like, that's the same, 320 for K1 is that the difference so 320 per K 1640 330 per K 1730 big diff yeah it's interesting isn't it that's like perceived effort to me 320 to 330 would be similar-ish yeah it's quite a big difference in the 5K massive and the thing is okay if you've got the last K on a 5K and the first K on the 5K and you do both of them at 320 that's even split but the effort of that first K you're going to feel easy.

22:20You're fresh. You've just started. Things are good. The last one, you've done 4K hard already. You're taxed and you've got one more K to go. The effort of that, it's the same pace, but the effort is far greater.

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24:47I hate racing 5K because it is just like a complete mindfuck. And it's like, it can be, it can just go wrong so quickly. My ideal, I'm interested to hear you say that you would just even split it. because say I wanted to run 1730 and I wanted it to be average of 330 pace, I would love to set off at like 340, 345 for like a K. Yeah. Then, you know, nuke the middle 3K at 330 and then end on 320 would be a perfect race. Ideal race. And probably that is the best way to do it. But in most races - The 320 is going to suck at the end. It's not going to be possible. Well, it could be if you feel really good, but it's also like you lose the race as well.

25:35Like if you're solo. You're miles behind, yeah, if it's a race. Everyone gets out hot and they're gone. So you've got no one to tuck in work and like we were talking about, you need those people to be like, right, the race is on. I'm not giving up. So if you're then solo because you've set off like a bit steadier, you find it hard to then get back in the race and like fight back. So you need to be in the hustle as well. So yeah, you want to be involved, but not like overdoing it. People always accuse me on the show of just having guests on for my own personal gain, which is great. So I've got a few questions for you.

26:07Go on then. And yeah, it's a great position, isn't it? I get to chat to awesome athletes about how I can get faster. Yeah. Ideal. Okay. So what sessions would you run? If you're kind of stuck in a bit of a 5k plateau and you're looking to get faster, what sessions are you working at the track or in the park to get faster? if you're wanting to run like a 330 average then you need to be going way quicker than 330 and training off of you know a bit more rest so i think everyone just goes all right i need to run a 330 i want to run a 1730 and then they go and run five by k right well it's the same as as people who again not talking about london marathon just marathoning generally that's exactly what you're saying the same as people that kind of can just about holds like 413 pace and for a bit and then they want to run a sub three hour marathon and they're like well on the day i'll just hold it for 42 it's like no like you have to be able to hold that you need to be training much faster than your pace for the race yeah so would you be running k's around a track say and taking you know 45 60 seconds off and then and then you know running those at 315s or something i i think that would be far too tough to do in the like the thing is is when you're training you're more fatigued because when you get ready for a race, you taper up, you're fresh, you've got the adrenaline, so you can pull out the fast times.

27:31But in a training block for me, I'm always tired. I'm waking up tired every day. So sometimes sessions don't need to be crazy, crazy. Like a three 13 splits for a case would be really hard for me to like, I need to feel good, feel ready, feel fresh. What I would do is make the, bring it down even more, do 400 meter reps, do 600 meter reps, do 800 meter reps, do 60 seconds, do 90 seconds, but hit them at a faster pace, like hit them at 310, 315 confidently, smoothly. And then you're getting the body used to that pace, the legs used to that pace, the cadence, everything. And then on race day, it will come together.

28:05But if you go and go, I'm going to go to do six by a K or five by a K, and then you aim for 330s, but you're tired from the week, you end up running 335. So that's not going to help you on race day. And you're taking rest. So in your mind, you literally just leave the track feeling like a slug yeah mentally and then physically you haven't done the work so it's true though it's actually you love to reference feeling like a slug well slugs strike me as as kind of like they look lazy you know slugs are like i i can't imagine a slug has ever woken up and gone like i feel tremendous right like you're a slug you know so they seem to was it the tortoise and the hair though yeah but the slug's not ever winning a tortoise at least can like a tortoise can shift a little bit a slug is slow and steady a slug's a slug whereas I could say snail I think snail is obviously the more appropriate like people understand that snails are slugs are the same they just don't have the cool shell I'd rather be a snail I think than a slug yeah you've got a bit of a home you've got some armour you've got somewhere to live you definitely look cooler you can hide it's like wearing a cool hat you know like you can be a slug which is just like like raw and bare or you can be a snail and have like a really cool hat.

29:18Yeah, you can have a bit of graffiti on there. You can hide away. You can get some designer. PB times on your show. Signage, marketing, you can get a sponsor. Exactly. Yeah. Under Armour. We're Team Honor now. We're Team Honor. I think it is interesting. And that comes back to this idea of trying to love the sessions. I think a lot of people, and I'd be interested to hear your view, people who want to get into running so people who look at say the marathon or half marathon they sign up but they're not they're not runners yet yeah and they push themselves through hell to try and get marathon ready and actually they're not really enjoying it yeah they're just kind of like oh i've got to do all this training and then marathon day sucks because they don't really sleep the night before because they're anxious or nervous about their first marathon which is obviously fair enough and then everything's painful and everything's slow and you go well i'm never doing that again right and I think when you're choosing goals you should choose goals appropriately pick times and and and kind of segments and distances that are you know hard to hit maybe but within reach just so that you're not like killing yourself to get to it yeah I think that that's a massive barrier to entry I think to anything yeah I mean like this year with the marathon I didn't train for the marathon I didn't do the long runs for five weeks prior I didn't get the mileage that I did the previous year when I was on the elite start I didn't do so many things that we feel like we need to do like you said to get on the start line and be like I'm ready to do this I'm not anxious I know what's going to happen like I know I can do the work I got on that start list on Sunday and I in the championship start and I was thinking I have got no idea where which way this is going to go because I haven't done the textbooks things that we all believe that we need to do and I yeah I had a six minute PB did something like that I didn't think I would anywhere near I would.

31:08I threw my game plan out the window on mile one and I was like, oh, I'm going to go out at, you know, 345s. You know, I'm going to go out sensible at 240 marathon pace. Mile one, I was on for 229, 230 pace. So, you know, the thing is, is you've got to go off how you feel. You've got to go off what you want to do. I had grit that morning. I was like, you know what? It doesn't matter. I'm just going to see what happens. Roll the dice. You know, if it hurts, I'll back off. If it doesn't, I'll push on. But we don't have to fit the textbook box that our training says that we're at or that everyone else will, we've told everyone else that we're going to try and do.

31:42We don't have to fit that. We have to just wake up in the morning and go, do you know what? This is what my body's going to do. This is what I'm going to do. This is not what I'm capable of going to do. But I think with a lot of training, we, yeah, we try and put ourselves in like, okay, if we need to run a sub three, this is the training. I need to do six by, you know, 2k at this pace and three by 5k at this pace. But I've just done a load of strength training no long runs in the five weeks prior and I've still managed to get on the start line and pull something out the bag that everything kind of went against I think I think it's all I think a lot of it when you're at a certain fitness level is is mental and how and how you perceive your your your day to go yeah you know obviously far lower level than you but but you know I had a similar thing with London I didn't really put I wasn't in a training block didn't didn't make any like real effort like being an Easter holiday with the family yeah yeah came back and ran you know three hours and four seconds which I just wasn't really expecting I'd you know had had I've gone sub three before wait three hours and four seconds yeah oh that is brutal I wasn't going for a sub three you know my pals on the start line were like oh are you going for it and I was like not not really like I this could go quite badly as well just just like I've been really relaxing exactly like you know not training at all yeah on holiday like slow long like slow medium sized runs like just for the love of it yeah so anyway should we talk about you I always end up like yeah let's go back are you going to cut that whole sequence Simon probably some of it yeah I can see Simon like we're normally in an interview and then I start telling a story and I can see Simon just going like the fucking hell he's not telling that marathon story again is he yeah I just want everyone to know I just want to let everyone know that I wasn't actually racing and I didn't miss anything so bugger off with all the comments about missing sub 3 so right we've established that you are clearly an elite runner uh with a tremendous mindset by the way such a shame that that setback has been with me ever since you yeah referenced earlier must be just extraordinarily painful um high rocks talk to me about it what was appealing about high rocks to you and why did you decide uh to put your chips on that table in that pot what is it yeah something like that whatever yeah why did you decide to go all in there's the poker reference yeah I guess I didn't go all in I think right so after I had my setbacks finished with Under Armour which was 2023 I didn't know what to do then right because your sponsorship's gone you feel like I'm at the end of it now give up but I couldn't give up and I don't know how to do that so like I was like right what do you want to do let's start start from the ground again build myself back up and I was like I'm going to sign up for a marathon, which is what I did, the elite marathon.

34:25And then I really struggled. Like, I like long distances and I like training for it, but obviously my heart was in 1500 meter, which is strength. And I always think a 1500 meter is a hybrid person already. We call it hybrid, but you're in the gym twice. You need to be strong. You need to be fast and you need to have a high VO2. You need to have an aerobic base. What is your VO2? I actually don't know. I haven't had it tested recently. I'd actually like to get that done now, post-marathon. I think it could be probably like, I've had it at 68 before, but I think I could get it higher. It might be higher right now.

35:01But a VO2 is hard because sprinters have lower VO2s, right? It doesn't mean they're not fit. There's a great place just down the road from here called... Marlabone Health. Thank you, Simon. I was actually just building anticipation of Marlabone Health. I wasn't actually. I had indeed forgotten. It's Marlabone Health. Right, yeah. There's a few unis that do it as well, that I'll help with doing testing and stuff like that and try and help with research and give back to stuff like that. But it'll be interesting to see it now because I have, you're right, I have now done a little bit more high rocks.

35:37I haven't put all of my chips on the table, if that's what you want to call it. But I have played around with it because I just got a little bit, with marathon training, you lose muscle, you lose speed, You lose power. You lose plyometrics. Do you think it is possible to marathon train really effectively and remain strong and lift as well? Or do you think one just definitely cannibalizes the other? Hard to say, but I've just done a six-minute PB and I'm in the Elite 15. So, yeah. No, I'm managing it. But do I have the perfect recipe right now? No, but I have been experimenting. and by that I've been fully going in high rocks.

36:20We were on for, I don't know if you heard or know about what happened in Warsaw, which was literally a week ago. So I went from the elite 15 in Warsaw trying to make world champs. So getting the top 15 spots in the world as three up for grabs. So me and my doubles partner went all in. So we were doing some 1500 meter work. We were doing like loads of gym work and I'm backed off in the long runs. That's why last five weeks have not been about London. And we were in world record pace and then we're giving it back and forth to the world record holders in Warsaw. We got into the wall ball second. I was like, right, this is good.

36:53And then we found out at the wall balls that we'd been given a two minute penalty for littering, which is I left a gel packet by the rower. What? Yeah, two minutes. And then... That's just bollocks. Game over. Yeah. That's just bollocks. Thank you for saying that. No, seriously, that's just bollocks. Thank you for saying that. I've had so much heat online. At your level. that's not that's not like people need to understand that when you're in something like this like you're not you're not littering you're not thinking and also I placed it down with the intention of picking it up so I've had so much stick online and this is the first that's insane by the way and that is not fair no and this is the first time I've had heat for being like trying to be a very good athlete like because in running like it's A to B and yeah you can chop gels or bottles on the side with London because you're so in it you're so wrecked you're so after it that the sport tries like cheers you on and tries to whatever you need like sloshes you with water whatever you need to get you to get the performance best performance out of you but yeah it was brutal because like yeah it's not a dog walk no and it's bizarre i like i can't wrap my head around that two minute penalty two seconds maybe maybe 15 if we'd had one minute we would have been going to world champs in the elite 15 you might as well have dequeued us but the worst thing was like No, because it's top 15, right?

38:14But that's insane. If you give someone a two-minute penalty. That type of thing really hurts my head. Yeah. I find that so irritating. If you give someone a two-minute penalty in 100, what's the point? They might as well be DQ'd. In a High Rocks race, I'd rather they DQ'd us, but it's not about that at all. What it was about is the sport is new, and I know that, and after the race, I was heated, and I was like, what on earth? and I expressed myself online and it got a little bit of heat, it went a little bit viral or, you know, whatever, because people couldn't really believe what was happening and there was people that were like, yeah, what the hell?

38:52But then you've got these hieroxes, they are a kind of cult in a way and they came for me. I don't know if it was because I was a runner and they're like, you have to learn the rules of hierox, like you got on the start line, you know the rules. But the thing is, this will never happen at Untapped Games, by the way. And you're very welcome to come and qualify for the World Championships free of charge. Yeah, I mean, it was just, I have never felt like such a bad human. I mean, the comments I was getting, I was like, how dare you leave a gel there? That's so inconsiderate for the other girls, 26 other girls behind you.

39:24They could have slipped and hurt themselves. You deserve the penalty. Don't litter. Just a lot of heat. And I'm like, hang on, guys. I was absolutely, we were running three 10Ks. We are not as good at the station. So we are like just doing our absolute best. the judges were on us because they were like they're runners so they're going to make mistakes there was so much pressure on us to do well we were doing well then we had a judge talking to us while we were on the road because we'd got another penalty somewhere so we we were distracted when we're trying to do our job which was to pick up the gel and then by me then like verbally saying like as an athlete hang on guys I don't think this is right because a two-minute penalty does that justify have I taken like am I getting a performance gain from putting that gel on the floor like am I no so by me vocalizing and like expressing how I feel as an athlete what I think is right and wrong and I almost got then like no be quiet sit down can't say anything this is the highway this is you know you can't you can't have an opinion Holly and I got a little bit of hate on it and I did a YouTube afterwards to be like you lot that's not fair like if you want this to be a sport and you want us to be really really really all in then we need to feel calm we need to like be able to be athletes and we need the best for us like can't be telling everyone in a marathon oh keep your gels on you like just pick them up afterwards littering in london marathon is wild but it's not considered a string because obviously it's part of the race right like carrying they're like you've signed up just put it close to a bin do your best we'll pick it up after like i had so much fun trying to um so you know the big bins on the side you're trying to so yeah so like i would smash the water and then and then lob it like as high as i possibly could and try and hit and that was just a little game of mine but I loved it and I'd miss sometimes yeah I think I got one I got one out of the four no to us yeah but also like I'm just the thing that bothers me the most about the story is that it's obviously a mistake as well it's not like you're not you're not like leaving some banana peel for your like you know the next person to come and slip on I'm not cutting the course or I'm not trying to get an advantage like and like littering is doing something on purpose I didn't do it on purpose and like yeah it was brutal and that was game over then so we of course it's two minutes like surely surely it's like a 10 second penalty yeah or a 15 two minutes I mean doing a wrong burpee or a staggered burpee is 15 seconds yeah or if you get the burpee wrong but that's technique I don't like any of this no it's it's very no I agree anything with form you've got to keep it has to be the same it has to be standard for everyone like I get that but like a gel also they've had five majors this year in each major there's three spots in order for you to get to the world champs to be in the elite 15 at the world champs not to just go to the world champs so i want to be in the elite 15 i want to be the best 15 in the world and we were on for being the second fastest time ever um and if we hadn't got the two minute penalty we would have been on for that or we would have got the third fastest time ever so we belong in the top 15 but they've gone nope you left the jail there we're not having you there but actually a lot of people were like it's a shame we're not there now because we can't contend the world champion so we're not going to make the race as strong anymore like we were giving high rock something that i feel like it was missing that running competitive edge like that it's a five mile race in in there like it is running um i don't know if they don't like us and they're trying to like no i can't say that but it felt like they're like trying to discrimination a little bit a little bit they're like like you need to learn high rocks first like high rocks isn't running a lot of people work on the comments saying this is not running you have to follow our spot is in like get the technique right but it's not a race is a to b it doesn't matter how we do the skio if it's not as efficient as you sorry but your running isn't as efficient as us and we're not coming at you so i think people just see that we're a bit sloppy on the stations and we need to tidy it up but who cares if we get the station done it doesn't matter if we're pulling too much on our arms or if we're using our like glutes too much we're getting it done still leave us be and I think a lot of people are coming at us like you need to do the stations right to be in high rocks and I disagree just leave us be get us from a to b that's a race you you can you can basically like the fast runner can basically do all the running can't they or do you both have to do the running we both have to do the running you both have to enter the station and leave the station at the same time and you have to be within five seconds of each other what on the run so it It doesn't...

43:52Oh, I see. And then you can share the station how you like. Okay, so just as an example, if I did a high rocks with my friend Josh, who's a complete beast, he, in theory, can do the majority of the station. Yeah. You can share that however you like. He can do the whole station. Yeah, yeah. He can do the whole station, but you've still got to stay with him on the run. So you are only as good as your... I probably couldn't even do that. You're only as good as your slowest runner in the race, right? So if they... Yeah, we were getting hammered straight away. I was like, stay close to each other, stay within five seconds of each other.

44:24So it was almost like they had it out for us from the start. And I think, yeah, basically we've come in without this background of like gym and without this background of like being able to do the ski erg and like the technique perfectly. But we've kind of come in and like contended the world record holders and they've gone, ooh, that makes us like, we don't like that. But really both of us are very, very, very good 1500 meter runners. and runners like you're we're two of the best I'd say top 15 top 20 runners in the country as females and yeah we're gonna beat most people on the runs but I don't feel like we should have been we should have been like scrutinized for that and it was almost like they were trying to teach us a lesson I'm like yeah cool you're good at running but you need to do this a little bit better and like I understand what they're saying but to to do that to us to the world champs like it put such a sour tone in my mouth.

45:17And I was like, not sure I want to continue with this if people are going to come at me for being the best I can. But obviously, if you decide that you wanted to do it, you know that you're in that top 15, obviously, if you didn't try and trip people up with that job. Obviously, being an athlete, right? And being who we are, we wouldn't be proper athletes if we didn't come back with a bang, obviously. When are you doing that? We will come back. But when I do, I want to do it like, and I want them to have nothing to say to us because they're going to try and find, oh, like these girls penalty all the time.

45:50We're going to get them again. We're going to get them again. And I just, I want them to have, I just want to be clean as a whistle. So I can just be like, you know, and I don't want to be stressing about it whilst running because like we're coming into the stations and I'm already stressed. You're overthinking everything. But yeah, we're going to do another one, come back with a bang, hopefully. But in terms of the love for the sport, it's gone for me. I'm doing it to prove a point. as an athlete sometimes you do things just because you have to prove a point you don't do it because you love it and if you keep doing that that's when we go downhill you have to love it like you know like you were saying like you have to have purpose and you have to enjoy the sport to keep turning up and I think right now for me with High Rocks I don't have that but I will turn up to prove a point to get the love back and to prove that we belong there and get people off our back

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48:05To fuel the high rocks properly, how are you doing that? So obviously, I would be familiar with a marathon fueling strategy or a 10K strategy. How would you fuel a high rocks? On the start line, I have a gel because you just want to top up your glycogen stores. I have a 40 gram carb gel. Now, usually you want to have a gel every 20 minutes in a marathon, but that's because after 90 minutes, you've lost all your glycogen stores, right? but obviously in a higher ox for us it's you know 50 50 odd 55 minutes so we're not going to lose all our glycogen stores but the intensity is so much harder that you're going to lose it quicker also the heat so the hotter it is the more carbs you burn so I'm having at the moment I'm having one on the start line and then one at the rower and potentially one going into like the last two stations but it all depends on on how I feel really um but yeah at the moment on the rower just before, like just after mid-race really.

48:59Top it up because you're losing, you still need the strength and the focus for the last parts of the race. And it's not like you're floating through like in a rhythm. You're absolutely sending it. And the hierarchy are just burning so much more, it's so much more intense. So at the moment, that's what I'm doing. But who knows? Because there's not been enough research and studies in it. And I think there will be going forward. But maybe I just won't have a gel now because I'll flitter. Banana. Raw dog it. Raw dog it. By the sounds of things, you're going to come back and you're going to smash high rocks and you're going to cement your position in that sport.

49:31But if the love weren't to kind of ever come back for it, is there anything else on the horizon? What would be next for you? Well, I mean, obviously that was last week and I was absolutely devastated, bawling my eyes out. That was last Sunday. And then I had London and by doing London, it did fix a lot of things for me mentally because I think what I felt in high rocks was I don't belong there. and I don't know if that was like the intention or that was just me being over emotional or that was a goal shattered but for me like our goal was to make world champs in the elite 15 that's gone so I did what I knew I could do and get on the start line in London and just absolutely send it and just be like I don't care that I haven't trained for it I'm just going to push my body and prove that I belong somewhere and I am a good athlete and like yes I'm going to drop a gel rapper by accident, but it doesn't mean I'm like this villain or this bad person that can't follow rules.

50:23I'm still a really good athlete that's really tenacious. And that gave me so much more confidence now. Like I came off of that race and I was like, I am a good person. I am tough. I am strong. I do belong here. I am in good shape. And it gave me a bit of my mojo back because I think it flattens you when you get kind of ridiculed or you feel really low over something that, you know, maybe a few other people have said, and I know you have to be careful with what people say online and you shouldn't really read into it too much but it does it gets to you and I think it got to me a bit and I thought you know what I don't feel this bad when I do running so why don't I just move back to running but having done the marathon and not realizing like that group of people understand me like respect me like and you know appreciate the work that I do just not for myself but for everybody else and for women and for young girls to feel strong and you can do marathons you don't have to be a certain like body stature but I think yeah going back to high rocks like now I feel a bit more confident I've got my mojo from doing what I did in London like that tiny bit of respect like has done me wonders because if they come at me or say I've now got you know I am good this is what I do this is my profession let me get on with it and I think I needed that just confidence boost to get back out there maybe in high rocks and just feel like whatever somebody says at me I don't care like this is me whereas I think that's why I was saying with the love had gone for hyrox because I felt a bit lost I was like do I go hyrox do I go running and I think I always just stay running running is always going to be that number one and hyrox is a supplement and as much they want me to be just in hyrox and hyrox is its own sport I disagree I think hyrox is mostly running so I'm going to stay running and I'm going to supplement my running with hyrox and I'm going to do it that way um and that way I can try and stay out of like the cult of you know what we all these rules and and whatnot no i agree follow rules but make the rules make sense like that that's what i'd say about that is the rules don't make sense at the moment and it it needs to be the same for everybody and right now it's not so yeah agreed well we hope you find peace with it all yeah yeah not a piece of rapper like that's the only thing i've given it i know well they found that yeah they did yeah I don't.