Hugo Fry's Tips for a 2.17 Marathon, Rice Obsession & Best Running Super Shoes

0:01By the way, if at any point during this interview I refer to us as we... Don't worry, I'm not going to take it first. I'm not that bloke. You can call me what you like. It's only because Sam Brown, who's just gone out, used us in the same breath. And I've actually never been so flattered. Because I don't consider myself a good amateur or a shit pro. I'm just an amateur. but i like i think there's like i would describe myself as like um there's a i think it's a made-up running group called like sub elite sub sub elite sub elite yeah so you're you're no no like sub elite is like championship in london marathon so you've got like for in london you've got like the elites yeah then you've got championship star then you've got good for age and then you've got masses yeah and so like elite is phil sessman 206 to 208 guys down to maybe 214 yeah if you're british and then for then you get the like championship guys who are like really good runners you couldn't make a career out of it the only way you make a career out of it is by putting yourself all out online essentially yeah and then you have good for age which is like you're a sub three marathoner you're a very very very good one like runner but that's good for age good for age yeah so does it you automatically get a place in london so it matters what do you mean so if you apply for the ballot you just get it automatically get it oh that's cool if you're if you're sub 258 i think now oh yeah exactly exactly and does it help that i'm 37 um yeah no you're like a a good for age which is and they i don't know i think it's what's an age category Is it 24 to, no, it's 18 to 34?

1:48Simon, age categories, please, for the marathon. Something like that. I'm in like a golden oldie. Yeah, and so then your times get slurred to get into a good for age. But even like for Boston, because I thought that to register for Boston, it was sub three hour, full stop for men. But actually, there's an age. Age. And I think for my age, it's something like three, ten or three, maybe even slower so i'm well in mate it's getting quicker and quicker is it a straight line i saw that for the first time the other day straight line boston marathon it's just like a straight line yeah i i'm i'm hot i decided to i was meant to do boston this year and i switched like three weeks ago to london to london um and then it was a perfect conditions like five degrees tailwind the whole way that's why it was so quick everyone was smashing it because you literally had the maddest tailwind all the way just flew and all the results are coming through and i was looking at my phone being like i wish i just firmed about five grand to just send myself there like why did i do this to myself so yes simon sorry the age groups 18 to 39 is like the first general group what that's unlucky mate you've got two more years 18 to 39.

3:04That's a crazy spread. That can't be right. Surely it's like 18 to 30. But marathon, you peak older. Look at Kipchoge. He's like 40. And he's still dropping a 206. 206 is wild. So your marathon PB is currently 217. Yeah. How did this all come about? Did you run as a kid? No, I started in COVID. You started running in COVID? Yeah, in COVID, yeah. Five years ago? Yeah, about that. So 2020 came around. I was doing the classic, like, I was on a grad scheme for BT, doing telecoms. Not the most sexy, not going to lie. You know, you have great ambitions as a kid, and then you get your grad scheme and you're like, wow, 45 years of telecoms ahead.

3:53Can't wait. But I was, yeah, like, you know, doing the three, four nights a week on the corporate circuit getting pissed and then covid happened and you kind of locked away and it kind of happened at a good time for me because i was just feeling i'd always been interested in like health and fitness for sure and at uni i took it quite seriously i did a bit of boxing um and then i kind of felt a bit lost didn't really have i tried everything like crossfit f45 did f45 for ages got into that hype um got you know swayed by mark walberg I was about to say Marky Mark Marky Mark I met him actually at F45 it was the weirdest experience how was that?

4:35they had all their he had a massive crew there and they're just like pumping out and very American so yeah I guess like we were I was just doing burpees in my bedroom and then I was like there was this I don't even remember it there was the give five nominate five and run five kind of crazy donated five quid to the NHS and told five other people to run a 5k and I did it and I did like 19 minutes 50 for a 5k and I hadn't really done any running and you just never ran before no no no you'd never laced up and just gone for like a jog or maybe yeah but like you'd never ran never done any programming or anything like that never done any I was kind of a chubby kid I played cricket it's a great sport you need hand eye coordination you don't need fitness no shade you know Ben Stokes is watching this I'm sure he's a fit guy but you know it's about swinging your bat as hard as possible again you know these like those those lads are insane yeah but they're animals but i think you know schoolboy cricket schoolboy cricket different different level different yeah yeah very different gravy

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8:03I didn't have any structure either. I just went out and did like zone two running, I guess, if it was that, but I just went and ran. And like, you know, it was like the hour a day. Yeah. You couldn't go outside for longer than an hour a day or you'd get arrested. I mean, I'm sure I wouldn't but that was my uh that was my program so I literally went outside ran an hour and saw how far I could go each day essentially and then did that for like 18 months when the whole of lockdown um and then started to like look into running a bit more do some intervals but nothing like serious um and then when restrictions kind of ended I did the Brighton marathon so I signed up um and that was in 2021 in September and I did like a 303 um and then kind of I honestly thought that was it I was like I've done a marathon let's see what the next challenge holds I don't know if this running thing will like stick um and then my mate had a place at London in the October literally like a month later and was like I need someone to fill it do you wanna because he worked for one of the sponsors uh and I was like yeah sure I'll take it and I did like a 252 and then I was like oh that was cool didn't really have any concept of like if that was good or not because I didn't really know much about like running or I wasn't really part of the running community and then everyone was like oh you should do Boston because you've got the time and that's the most iconic marathon in the world so I was like okay I'll go and do Boston and I did that in the April in 2022 and got a 238 and I was like it's like what it's it's so weird like you know a lot of our listeners are runners and kind of fully understand this kind of stuff on the off chance that you're listening to this and you and you and you don't kind of understand these times like that that time would take most people years to have very serious you know um training and commitments and consistency to achieve it feels like you've kind of just breezed it yeah i mean i put a lot of miles in i was always a high volume runner like i've always been able to do my body's taken like mileage well um but yeah I was doing like 100k a week I don't know I literally you could go back in my Strava and go what the what was this guy doing like he had no idea what he was doing I sometimes look back at my training and go like that was so random um bizarre and then yeah it's just kind of like just spitballed and I've thrown in some other random things and then last in 2024 I did Berlin and that's when I got 219 and I thought it was a wasted opportunity to not start putting stuff online are you are you making massive shifts to to to decrease your times this aggressively so like are you are you taking your 239 238 238 experience and going right like what do I need to dial into are you getting professional advice at this stage like how are you running a 219 like on your own with no help I was a I was self-coached or whatever you want to call it until January so I had one coach for like two months um in 2023 which didn't end particularly well um and I kind of took that experience being like actually I just prefer to do it myself um and so i mean my basic structure was i ran probably for three years two to three years i ran 100 miles essentially 140 to 160k a week did every week every week pretty much did an interval session did a long run didn't really matter what i was training for i was always training for something yeah so i did that from probably 2023 for 18 months and you had the full-time job at this yeah yeah i had no life you can do that i mean i'm not i'll never say any if you have a full-time job you can run 100 miles a week and there's lots of examples but it does mean you have no life like i was definitely no social life really so you're just working and running and working and running sleeping and so if you if you have a family you have actual responsibilities completely it's just like it's just not possible and like that's training twice a day i was doing cross training as well you know i was meal prepping every meal i'd have breakfast lunch and dinner ready a couple of snacks on the go like also by the end you're paying attention to your your your calorific intake or your meals or are you just doing that for time and ease time and ease time and ease for sure you're not eating as well as you could be eating you're not you wouldn't you wouldn't say you were fueling like a professional athlete uh i mean it was pretty dark like it wasn't it wasn't bad i was eating very clean um and i ate quite a lot like i've not for me i've not changed weight in two years i've been the same how much how much do you weigh 73 kg i've been 73 74 for two years so like i'm clearly like i must be like eating the right amount um and so yeah i was just kind of did the meal prepping for ease and work found me weird to be fair like my my colleagues were like you are just a bit strange like there's no doubt about it like you come in with like three tough awares you eat like the rice thing i've been doing that for years like i really i really want to dig into the rice thing um and yeah i just kind of like woke up went to did a run in the morning did my job went home ran again or did some cross training, swam a lot, went to bed, didn't really, didn't really date, didn't really do much else, didn't take myself off to the cinema, just kind of sat just week in, week out.

13:44It's just, it's just repetitive consistency. That's, that was all I think I put it down to. Of all of the things that you have done to achieve, you know, you were talking about 219 time you've also run a 217 yeah yeah yeah in order to get anywhere near those times what have you found single-handedly is the is the greatest lever that you've pulled is it the the high mileage consistently it's just consistency for sure it doesn't matter what your training methodology you believe in is there's so many about running you've got nowadays double thresholds really popular, you know, but there's loads of, there's loads of styles you can train in, but just sticking to one thing for a very long time, I think pays off.

14:28Do you know what you're doing before you go out? So obviously now is a bit different. I'm talking about when you were getting, when you were becoming the athlete that you are now, would you go to the park and just start running? Cause you know, it has to be quite a long run anyway. If you're running, you know, a hundred miles a week, that's 160 K, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's quite it's you know you're doing one long run a week did you say yeah your long run is marathon distance yes i would have been like so i always knew i always knew what i'd do in a week i just would never plan ahead yeah i knew what session i was going to do i knew what kind of paces i was going to hit every week so to be honest um but i'd kind of rinse and repeat the same workouts how much of it was slow like at least oh yeah like a lot um and what is monday tuesday what is your zone two pace i mean it's changed a lot over the last like four or five years i used to run at 5 30s per k when i first started so i was already pretty quick for that was like 120 130 beats per minute heart rate and then now for example yesterday i did an hour on the treadmill at 405s and my heart rate was 128 so like you know you you just it just progresses so you you can run you can run a sub three hour marathon in zone one you probably yeah probably yeah it's pretty sweet isn't it it's cool and but the funny thing is is like you don't really acknowledge your own progression because like now i only run with really fast blokes like every weekend i i do this like group session and every single one of those guys is quicker than me and way fitter than me and like on saturday i did a like a last like they're pros though so who are these people like like to me i just find it i find it they're normal guys with normal jobs it's crazy this is all of them i was having this conversation this morning uh with someone in the gym that i didn't know so i was in the gym and somebody mentioned the sam brown thing again with the the kind of shit pro versus good amateur yeah and i was chatting to him i was like i'm i'm i'm nowhere near either of those things i'm not a good amateur i'm like i'm a i'm i would be considered a very average runner like not to the average person yeah but in the running community like if i went to a like a good run club i'm right at the back right like and i know that like happily compete with anyone over 500k yeah i reckon i'll come out just fine it's a different Yeah, yeah, yeah.

16:59And like, I was reminded of that yesterday. I did a track session yesterday and I was kind of, I was running like three tens, like laps. So like quite fast for me, I'm 86 kilos, you know, like, you know, I wouldn't go too much faster than that. And there was a group of young lads there, topless, probably weighed like 61, 62 kilos, literally sprinting past me, but just cruising. So like super long. So I'm like, I'm like really giving at some like some warthog around the track thinking i look like them you know and you look at them running they're so flowy so agile and so flowy like like a kind of fight it like a like a stream of fighter jets going past and i was like so much faster they're going at i don't know i want to say 240s or something just cruising and i was just like this is depressing just depressing yeah i'm in one of my speed sessions like normally at the like that this is me at my i couldn't look better peak.

17:56It's just like these guys are like I'm a joke compared to them. It was on Saturday they were all running and one of them is a guy called Charlie Sanderson who you might have seen now. He puts quite a lot online but he's a teacher. He's a normal 9-5. He's a 2.15 runner. Marathon runner. He's a teacher. But what's happening? That's mad. I remember a time when I thought my brother was a very serious runner because he would run all of the time. He was like a rake thin. He used to be He was never overweight, but he was just like carrying kind of a normal office frame. And when my other brother passed away, my brother started running a lot.

18:36And he did a lot of marathons and a lot of events and raising money for the Michael Matthews Foundation. And I remember as a young kid thinking, God, you can't take it much more seriously than James. Oh, you can. There are levels. Oh, I know. And James would go on these like 30K runs, 35K. I can remember growing up with this sense of like, wow, he's extraordinary. He went and did an Ironman and whatever else. And obviously this predates Super Shoes. But James ran, I think James' PB was a 304, which back then I think was pretty good. I seem to remember that breaking three, everyone was interested in breaking four.

19:12Not elites, obviously, and people. But the general consensus of a good marathon was, you know, under four, going out and getting under four. Now, like, breaking three is pretty normal, I think. Like, loads of people break three. Yeah, I think it's going to be, I'm interested. You guys all down with the 3.15 thing is insane. Sorry, the 2.15 thing. Yeah. I think my theory is that the noise often is because running has become really popular. so it's very big on social media now and everyone who's putting out on social media like stuff is wanting to do the sub threes and actually like recent like the first kind of cracks i've seen is like manchester marathon last weekend a lot of the guys who are going for sub three you look up and they've just not done it so i think you see a lot online and this is like my main thing my main issue with social media all the time is people say they're going to do a lot of things and they're putting out and then they don't do it.

20:15But no one remembers they didn't do it, but they've been preaching that they, oh, I'm a sub three marathoner. And I think it really disrespects how hard that is for someone to do. You get a lot of people that don't even really run who just assume that they can run sub three. The entries are like, oh, I'm doing a marathon. Oh, I'm going to go for sub three. It's like, have you ran a marathon before? And like, you know, I've got friends who literally are going, oh, I'm running London. And it's like their first or second marathon. they're going for sub three and they've never ran like anything under a 340 and i'm like yeah you're it's a very different thing and if you're i think also if you're just looking that if you're then doing a marathon and you're seeing all these people online saying oh i'm going for sub three then you're like well i can do that yeah and then you get to marathon day you've had a real struggle in training because you're trying to hit 414 you can't actually quite get because maybe it's your first or second marathon you do the marathon you have an awful time during it you finish and you feel disappointed because you didn't get your time but in fact actually the goal should never have been that and actually you should look but sit back and go i've just run a marathon so i think that's the main kind of issue i have if they're not targeting some big new goal just like have like enjoy the day it's one of it's one of sports best days yeah enjoy the day yeah i mean for me it was last year was eye-opening for me in terms of I realized I needed to touch grass like seriously I'd spent so long focusing on so I London last year was meant to be like my big race as this I was going to announce myself to the state like the world stage I'm going to do that I think I wanted to do 216 and I went you know what I need to do I can use all my annual leave I'm gonna go to kenya and train out there for a month and just dial in and lock in at altitude i'm going to do everything possible i'm going to just act like i'm going to be a monk to this like marathon and i'm going to get to the start line and i'm going to smash london and i get to the start line i go through halfway on time but it was a really hot day and by 28k i lost my hearing i barely could see and i just completely fucked it i completely fucked it and then i lost my hearing and barely could see i just and then i started walking at 14k left yeah and i had 14 so my first half was 68 minutes flat my second half was one hour 30 so and i'd and i the last 14k essentially walked jogged it what was going through your minds at the time when you decided to pull up i just i looked at myself i was like what have i done what am i i'm such an idiot like i haven't enjoyed this block of work because i've been so stressed about making sure it's perfect hitting all my times you know ignoring friends not really being present as you were saying and then at the end of the day it could just be a bad hot day and you have a nightmare and then you look back and go I didn't enjoy any of the last three months.

23:28What are you doing? You know? And so like, what a waste of time. Like literally I've just ruined three months of my life for a target that no one gives a fuck about either. I can go and run a two 30 tomorrow in London next week, or, you know, I can go and do an amazing time, right? 10 people are going to be like, that's amazing. You go, well done. The scroll on. If I do a two, if I have another nightmare, again, people look back go laugh oh what an idiot he's telling everyone else he's really quick he's done a horrible time scroll on on the tuesday no one remembers if i do really well my girlfriend will be super proud of me she'll be like well done and then she'll be like oh but i'm also doing it so no one cares and like if you don't if you just every time you're like i now realize that i love running yeah i'll go back on monday morning i'll probably go for a run you know i love doing the activity.

24:24I like the stuff it's brought me. I like routine. I like all, you know, all the things around it as well. That's why I do it. And if you don't have that, really evaluate why you keep signing up to marathons and having horrible time. Because you know what, just evaluate. There's another thing. Go do Pilates, go do, I don't know, rowing, whatever you want to do, high rocks, go do it. Try something else. Because if you're just in these blocks where you fucking hate life and then you might get your time. But every time I hit a time goal, I finished. And when I did 2.17 in December, I crossed that line.

25:00I was super emotional for two seconds and then went, I wasn't actually that hard. I think I've got more in me. And then I felt depressed the next day because I was like, actually, I could probably get a 2.15 now. And then maybe if I get 2.15, I'll be like, maybe a 2.10. You know, like every time it happens. It is. And the thing with me as well, because I'm probably even less immersed in the running world than you are. I have some friends, obviously, that are good runners and I run with them. But most people don't even know what it means. Yeah. It's interesting. For me, I thought breaking the marathon goals, I thought getting the 219, 217 would blow me up on social media.

25:43Yeah. It's so unrelatable. Yeah. No one knows what it is. I don't think anyone knows what it is. No. So the ones that I've always found do the best are the 5 and 10Ks when I put the splits up. Because then most people know what a 5K is. What is your 5K time? It's like 1440. It's disgusting. You're a hideous beast. It should be quicker. It should be quicker. 14 what? It should be quicker. Yeah, my half is 63 minutes. So that's like three flats. So that's a 15 minute 5K. So like for a half. So you think my 5K should be hopefully low 14s, but it's a different pain. Do you listen to music when you run?

26:21Yeah. What's the weirdest music you listen to when you run? I'm a big Eminem fan. Yeah, me too. My sins. Yeah, he's great. Yeah, he is. He's good. The early 2000s, late 90s Eminem, where he clearly needed help. Where he's very angry. Yeah. He's so angry. He's so angry. What's his issue? He just hates everyone. He hates everyone. But you get... It's good though. It helps you. Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that. And any American rock and roll? Any like some 41? No. No, nothing like that? It's very... I like also folk music. Folk? Yeah, a bit weird. Don't know why. Like kind of religious music?

26:59No, no. How do you describe folk? Like... Folk is just like... Happy chappy... It's a bit of like country. Country, yeah, country. Yeah, it's country. What am I thinking of? Gospel. Yeah. That's exactly what I'm thinking of. Hey, it does. If you listen to it, they really know how to sing, but it's not for me. Me and Jesus don't see eye to eye on a lot of things. I'm not going to lie. Do you not? No, no. I'm not particularly religious. I listened to some, I listened to, what's that Hugh Jackman film where he brings the circus back? Oh my God, yes. And it's - The Greatest Showman. I listened to that.

27:33That's really hyped. It's unreal. Like honestly, when The Greatest Showman comes on, right, just randomly when I'm on the track, like PB's incoming. It's really big. It's such a belter. It's every time. Every time. Every time. He's actually a great singer. It comes sometimes. You know, I use DJ Spotify. Do you? Spotify, the DJ function. And do you just tell it you like a bit of Hugh? No, no, he just knows. He knows. The AI is so good these days. It's like, just take over my life, please.

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30:25I had an idea, by the way, sorry, just before I forget it, because obviously we both have attention issues. I actually think we have both ADHD. This is a terrible podcast. Apologies. Good luck, Simon, in the edit. I forgot. No, I haven't. Okay. So I pitched this to my wife. Okay. And she obviously is not a superstar runner like us. So she doesn't, she didn't get it right so she just she shot it down like hard and i actually thought it was a bit rude okay but anyway that's neither here nor there um you tell her yeah i will like she doesn't listen to this she'll never hear this leave it in um she so i i want to create i just think everyone who's like a billionaire has an ai company so i think you know if we're chasing that vibe maybe we should have one and i thought that i thought you're about to say you're a billionaire for a second yes no i mean i'd really like like who wouldn't so the ai yes um i would i want an ai to mix music live based on my heart rate spotify already do that fuck off yeah are you mad let's hang on so i'm on a light jog it's just happy you can literally type in your beats per minute and it will sync to music you gotta tell it though it doesn't just know okay i mean it's pretty close is there worth doing the investment for spotify to probably come up with it quicker but we could sell it to spotify if we just kept it quiet i think this is because imagine this just just imagine this yeah we're looping the track right we're just doing like five laps as a warm-up we're running 450s right we're just we're cruising right we're in we're in the plates we're not in spikes we're in play to choose we're cruising you and i are best mates we're just running around the track right and it's just it's calm and it's just playing nice like bit of classical maybe something i don't know whatever maybe maybe a bit of gospel or some Bach yeah exactly um and then all of a sudden you know we we get to the start line and we click into the chorus and we suddenly thump it up and we go from you know 120 beats per minute to 170 a minute straight up bam and just like Eminem just fucking lands in the middle in the middle of the Bach though imagine my only issue is that sometimes on my darkest days when I'm running slowest, after a big session the day before, I need M &M to get angry so I can carry on.

32:44Well, can't we just say, listen, if you could sprinkle in some M &M, we'd be happy. Yeah, I mean, I guess. Maybe it could pick up on your mood as well. They'll know. You can get one of those Elon Musk chips in your brain, yeah. Listen, I never said I was the person to bring this to market, right? I just think it's a cool thing. If you knew how you felt and what you were doing, it could play the appropriate song it's like when that guy was on the podcast and he came up with the Flat White or Fuck Off and he was like I'm not going to do it but someone else can take this idea and they did and it's actually quite a successful business I'd be furious if I heard that this exists in a year and I'm not involved it does exist now yeah where does it exist so on Spotify I can have it'll mix music for me when I'm running based on my heart rate no it doesn't the heart rate thing connection is the gap yeah But that's the whole point.

33:33Like, so it will serve up. I feel like this is a long time. It will serve up music that's appropriate to my pace, is what I'm saying. Yeah. I mean, look, I'm not going to invest in that. GPS. So like, so like if you're traveling, like it could, it could be based off pace. But then you'd have to have a connection between Spotify and the chorus, you know, and business conflicts. You know. Listen, I'm, I'm not giving up on it quite yet. Yeah. You might know this. I assume you go through a lot of shoes. Yeah. so I run in Adi Zero the illegal ones they're not illegal the prime ones they might be illegal to you no not even I don't think no you can wear them I know I can't apparently they're amazing I've never worn them they're great apparently they really they make you fly for a heavier guy they're perfect oh my god someone finally said it Simon I was right you were right yeah yeah so I said I couldn't because you think about it if you're 60 kilograms no point they're way too heavy for you yeah but so that's why you would choose like an R3 or a A6 Tokyo Sky Sockony Endorphin 2 or something or whatever but the ones that are really or the Addi Evo Pro 3s which are 97 grams yeah right crazy I saw those they look beautiful but you in them will probably you wouldn't enjoy them yeah whereas those prime strong ones they're heavier but they've got two plates but they're great though yeah I fly on those things I love them and also like they keep my they keep everything lined up nicely I strike perfectly in them as well like it's all like when even the Pro 4 like i'm over the top of it those are but those are thin shoes and the and the adi the adi uh the the the adi zero pro form over the top of it the alpha fly just like doesn't really sit that well with me although i do like it as a shoe i just hate the sound of an alpha fly clip-clop it's crazy it's so annoying it's so just like nike just reduce that please recently you've been documenting your taper why is this period so important i think um if you're actually for everyone to be honest but specifically for me i've done the i've been training intensely since january january 1st so that's like 12 to 16 weeks of like dense running i've had a couple of slightly less week like down weeks with some like races i did valencia 10k in january then i did barcelona half and so just to sprinkle in a couple of like races to keep it a bit fresh but if you've done like 12 16 week block right you've done all this intense work you need time for your body to like absorb the training um so it's good to have like two weeks of lower volume to basically to recover let your body get back to full health and then you're ready to you're ready to go but it is an intensely boring period for someone like me who spends you know 15 to 20 hours a week training to go to like not even 10.

36:29If I were to just not that I have the power to do this but if I were to theoretically just take running away from you what would you do? If you really really it'd be a real struggle it's happened okay because I got I got a stress fracture a couple of years ago uh and it went badly for everyone around me what happened i was just shocking mood and just i mean horrendous little no i just went and got pissed off a lot and then yeah and then i uh peroxided my hair um blonde which was not a look m &m yeah i didn't shave it though so it was just this floppiness but like white they kind of got it wrong as well it was like so in your face were you quite a big drinker before you discovered like this level of elite running yeah for sure yeah i always the issue is for me is i definitely think i've got an addictive personality i wouldn't say like if i found if i couldn't run anymore i'd get addicted to something else um so like when i'm injured i then like hammered the bike you know so i got i did cycle to work scheme from my job and i bought the most expensive bike i had no right to buy it i did not i could not afford it but this mad bike from sigma sport and then um like every day would go and do like 50 to 100k before work and i remember my physio being like you do have like a grade four stress fracture this is terrible and i was like yeah i know and he was like you can stop cycling and i was like but i don't want to and he was like okay i can't stop they can't stop me but yeah i did some reckless i to be honest like yeah i just i lost my head but i got another injury after that and I learn many more coping mechanisms.

38:10So, you know. Lovely. But exercise is very much a clutch for me. Your story reminds me a little bit of kind of Rose Harvey's. You know, like somebody, she was a lawyer and used to drink a fair amount and then COVID happened and she got really good at running and now she's a team GB Olympic marathon runner. How many people like you and her do you think exist in the shadows? I think it's the hard part is finding what you're good at finding that thing and then realizing you're good at it before the opportunity goes away like if I wish I'd found running five years before I did um not that I'm particularly old I'm nearly 30 but you know if I'd found it when I was 20 not 25 I think my life could have been a bit more different but I've been really fortunate that I would not be able to get as good as I am if I hadn't been able to move to the social media side of stuff that has allowed me so much more flexibility to really push the next level that makes sense so I definitely have had that luxury but again that's taken a lot of work like I started doing social media in January last year so I've been doing it for 15 months now but that has opened so many more doors for me than running i would never i would never be able to make money from running if i didn't have the social media side so like i think that's the difference between me and someone like rose because she's like a full-time athlete she doesn't waste her time doing taper diaries and filming herself she does she runs hard though i mean you're you're faster than her but obviously male film yeah split but but i mean you know i looked at one of her sessions the other day on Strava it just looked like a joke yeah they're big I mean some of the you realize I've realized how far I've got to go when I look at other like when I look at pros training and what they do like some of the stuff especially I've like Phil Sessman puts it all on Strava it's definitely worth a follow and they do these things like they're called special blocks and they're on like a Friday and they'll do like 20k at marathon pace in the morning and then like another 10 15k in the evening faster and there'll be two days where it's over a marathon and it's like i i'm nowhere near that yet which is exciting because i when you think you're the reason i love the marathon is that when you think you're good at it you get humbled so quickly by it and there's always someone better than you to chase and that's what's the nice thing it's like you'll never you can't complete it there's always space to grow the pace that like the elite marathoners run at and and the pace that you run at is just is mind-boggling to me it's fun what do you average in a marathon just pace wise this time i'll be trying to go for like 3 10 3 12 okay so that's like that's my 400 meter 50 50 it's wild i think the quicker you go your economy gets better you like that pace just starts to feel more comfortable like i remember a year ago less than a year ago I hadn't I only broke 30 minutes in the 10k in January I only broke 15 minutes in the 5k in December you know so my growth has been like exponentially very very quick which has been super cool to see but um you know I've just got a coach now and he's helped me like with loads of structure and doing the right sessions and also like when you coach yourself I'm sure you find this as well like i'm very comfortable with putting put not putting myself in the bin whereas he'll be like you need to do this session at this pace and i would never have set myself that because it would scare me whereas now he's like you just got to do it i think that's interesting i find it much easier to run harder sessions with people oh yeah like if i set myself kind of like oh i'm gonna go out and i'm gonna do four sets of 5k at four yeah i'm not doing that on my own no you have to have people yeah like i've set off to do it on my own and like you get through the first one and you're just like actually i might just cool down you know yeah my growth my growth is my growth has come from training with people like being in a group find people who are quicker finding people who are quicker than you is so much better because then you can just like i just don't hang on like there are a lot of people you'll find them um anyway coming back to tapering yeah sorry um what actually happens to your body when you taper and why do people feel um loads of kind of niggles lethargic and yeah feel ordinarily like i think the days leading up to a marathon are just the worst yeah right because like all of a sudden it's like do i have a broken hip uh and you know like is my knee okay like i feel like i feel like i have a all kinds of issues i did um my last like session before the marathon i did five by a k this morning and like i've never done one of those sessions where you feel good and you're like you're running at marathon pace essentially and i was just like oh god i have to do this for 42k this is a nightmare like shit in your head i think it's because you are less structured than you usually are because you're doing less and you're trying to relax and then you're seeing loads of things people telling you to do x y and z during your taper and then you have to start thinking about the carb load and people kind of overcomplicate that so much.

43:31And so you've got all this information coming at you. It could be your first marathon. You could be slightly intimidated by it anyway. You know, if it's your first, you might've only done 32K as a training run. So to think, oh, I've got another 10K. You're just in your head the whole time. And then you might be carrying a couple of injuries anyway, but in your training, you were just kind of running through it. And now you're sitting still and you're just with it, with all this information. I think people just kind of, lose their heads a bit. Are you constantly carb loading with the amount of training you do, or are you focusing specifically on a carb load pre-race?

44:07It's a bit different. So yeah, I mean, I guess I eat like 5 ,000 to 6 ,000 calories a day probably. At the moment? Yeah. 5 ,000 or 6 ,000 calories? 5 ,000 to 6 ,000, yeah. Because I on average run, what, 180K a week is like 25K a day. So you're burning 2 ,000, 3 ,000 every day. on top of your base of your base right um and then a carb load essentially is just like topping up glycogen stores so i if i stop when i stop when i lower my volume i personally don't go too hard on the carb load because i'm like if i've learned my volume right i'm only running 5 10k a day now if i carry on eating the same way i'm gonna be loaded anyway i'm gonna be loaded anyway i think what people get really wrong is that they think it's a calorie and calorie load rather than a carb load and they kind of forget that they're not really meant to be smashing protein and fats especially the fats one um so like they'll be having like huge meals with lots of like maybe a fatty source and actually the idea is you're meant to just purely focus on the carbohydrates and limit your fats and proteins it's not that it's not that deep to be honest for most people But if you're doing, if you really want to do it properly, you just stick to like very simple carbohydrates.

45:27You maybe aim for the target range usually is 8 to 12 grams of carbohydrates per kilogram of body weight. Christ, I thought it was 1.2 grams per kilogram of body weight. Like 1.2, that's like you eat more than 82 carbs in a bagel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what is it? 10 grams. It's 10 grams. 10. You need 800 grams of carbs if you're 80. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, Simon, like, are you all right, mate? It's 10 grams. Okay, Simon putting one gram on the sheet. What an idiot.

46:04Yes, it is, Simon. Look at this nonsense. Okay, fine. So, if you think about it, if you look. Yeah, so I eat about a kilo of rice before a race, right? Yeah, that's a lot. Well, it's a bit more than 10 grams. Just like 12 grams? Just before? No, in the three days. Oh, gosh, thank God. I was like, you're stuffing a kilo in my face in the morning of the marathon. No, mate. If you think, so I was working out with my girlfriend this morning and it turns out she needs exactly like 10 grams, 10 bagels, essentially, the day before. 10 bagels? Yeah, the day before. Those like New York style bagels. Jesus.

46:41Yeah, that's the equivalent. She's not eating 10 bagels a day before a marathon, is she? No, I mean, I don't think she will. But that's kind of the recommendation, yeah. so it's like for her it was like you know because that's about 420 grams of carb it's 10 bagels yeah so when you actually put it out like that no we were doing eight grams because if you're new to the carb loading don't go to the top end of the spectrum go definitely to the one you're going to be more comfortable at and i go to the one i'm more comfortable at which is i don't even do those like crazy numbers because i don't love the feeling of feeling like heavy and watery but You do rice only, right?

47:17I mean, I mix it up. But yeah, I do a lot of rice. What are you talking about? You're the rice guy. I know. Rice is the best option. You're rice and repeat. Rice is the best option. You mean to say you're eating bagels? I have a bagel occasionally. Yeah, honestly. I suppose it doesn't rhyme. Bagels and repeat. Exactly. Crap. Yeah, it's terrible. Where's the marketing? Have you had a bee bagel? A bee bagel. Bee bagel. Well, the store? Yeah. It's a bagel company. Yeah, they're all right. They're great, mate. Come on. What are you talking about? Go to New York, have a proper... We're not in New York.

47:49I'm talking about carb loading. There's a lot better than Bee Bagels. Bee Bagels is pretty good, mate. Is it? Have you had one of those? Are you angling for a sponsorship? Not one. There's one just outside Chelsea and Westminster Hospital, isn't there? Yes, there is. Yeah, I've been there a couple of times. We spent our lives in there. Yeah. Four kids on the way. Yeah. They also have a farm shop next in Chelsea and Westminster, which is a rip-off. Yeah, yeah. It's crazy, but they do good products. Bee bagel, coronation chicken bagel with big crunchy lettuce and just really heavy mayonnaise. Is that your gating?

48:18It's good. It's really, really good. But are you saying that for perfect results, you should only eat carbs for a couple of days before? No, not only carbs. Because some elite guys only eat white rice, yeah? I mean, they are very much, and they're drinking carb mix as well, and they're having gels. Like when I talked to my, I'm sponsored by Precision Fuel and they were very much like, yeah, it's pretty much only carbohydrate. If you're a normal human, it's actually very hard to just purely eat carbohydrates. Like you will get incredibly bored of just having rice and honey and like a baguette and bagels by themselves.

48:58Right. So is the carb source from a bagel compared with white rice comparable? um yeah they're quite dense but the issue for the reason i've always said rice is good is because i think everyone's kind of slightly got something with gluten not every like i i don't think anyone out there feels a hundred percent after smashing loads of gluten rice therefore you know smashing 10 bagels that's going to sit in your stomach whereas right rice especially if it's your girlfriend yeah jesus 10 bagels it'd be music to vogues yeah so you if the right rice there's no gluten in it so it's easier to sit you know it just sits it's quick digesting there's not a lot of fiber in it which is good you want to reduce the fiber as well because because otherwise you shit yeah you just don't want to be on the toilet i had my first experience of a gel making your tummy a bit wonky uh in training the other day never happened in a race thankfully um but i had it and i i think i can pinpoint what it is just in case it's interesting yeah what do you think it So I had it first.

50:02Okay. So basically... I'm not questioning this, but okay, we'll get... Roll with it. Roll with it. I will, I will. So you know when you wake up? Yeah. You know when you wake up? Yeah. Yeah. I do it every day, hopefully for another 50 years. So you know when you wake up? I would ordinarily have a glass of water with some creatine and a couple of bits and bobs and maybe some eggs or some faya yogurt or an apple or something, right? And then I would train and I would go. And if it was a big, heavy session, I'd have a gel like 20 minutes before the session. And then maybe a gel halfway through the session.

50:39And then maybe even a gel at the end of the session if it's a big Larry thing. But this day I woke up and it was like 7.30 and the session was at 8 with a friend. And I literally just gelled. So I woke up, gelled before water or anything. So it's the very first thing into my time. right yeah then i probably had a glass of water with some creatine and then we just went straight out the door and went and trained and that made me want to shit myself so in my uh unexperate i'm not an expert on this but i think i believe the reason you do have stomach issues when you have gels is because when you're when your heart rate is at like above like 170 your blood flow your blood focuses on muscles rather than your digestive system so it actually slows your digestive system slows down so then you smack a gel when your digestive system is slowed and it just sits there and like chugs around and also dehydration plays a big part in it and then yeah epic disasters i've had many so i nearly couldn't finish my set oh yeah no i've many times just the battersea ones are battersea toilets are very good yeah yeah there are there's they're perfectly placed just either side yeah there's one outside the pear tree as well so there's three unless you get really unlucky unless you're the other side yeah by the gate but even then you're you're not you're not that you can survive yeah you can survive but yeah it's a it's a really unpleasant if you haven't had it don't have it's a really unpleasant feeling isn't it it's not it's not great when you're trying to work hard as well and on working hard yeah and you've just got these stomach pains you've just got like you know you're you kind of know as well that were you to relax it would just be a very serious problem yeah that's why we're half tights as well i was actually thinking i I always wear half tights.

52:22And I was thinking about that in the race. In fact, I was thinking, if I was on for like, say, a 255 or 254 or something, I was just running, would I just shit myself? I think I probably would. I think I'd make that deal with the devil. If someone with a gun to my head tomorrow said, in front of millions of people at London Marathon, you would get your target time, but you'd have to shit yourself. I think I'm in. I'd probably do it. I'm in. I'm fully in. I think the alternative is potentially worse because you have to shit on the street, which firstly, I wouldn't want to do that to my beloved London.

52:57No. And secondly, like... There are portaloos around the place. No, but I'm saying like, just, you know, when you've got to go, you've got to go type thing. That's why I've also thought the split shorts could be an interesting move. The what? The split shorts. Oh, yeah. Because you could just, you know, open the side up and just go full ham. I think that I'd chafe in those. I wouldn't trust those over a marathon. I've got those as well, obviously. Paul Radcliffe famously did that. I know, yeah, but it follows her around a bit, doesn't it? It's not a big deal. No. I don't care. She ran like a crazy time.

53:27I'd rather just do it and not tell anyone. You'd hope it was somewhere near the end, right? If Michael's quite bad chafing, though. It would be horrendous and it would smell and everything, but at least... I remember in Valencia last year, I did the marathon. It wasn't a great marathon for me and a couple of people were overtaking me. Oh, dear. That must be awful. Yeah, it was quite depressing. and this guy ran past me and I was like really struggling and I just saw shit all down his legs on the back and I thought I was like my day's bad but you know what you can beat me do you think that the half tight would keep it in?

54:01some of them are tight yeah I think so I think maybe get dribbled it's quite grim it is grim also like I have a lot of beetroot I've never done that as an adult do you take the beetroot stuff? the turmeric stuff no beetroot yeah but turmeric have a beetroot Oh, no. There's a company called Beat It. It's just nitrates. Just beetroot. Is it good? It's amazing. What does it do? So nitrates increase your blood flow. So you can carry more oxygen in your blood. What? Yeah. How long do I need to drink this shit for? Can I have time now? Yeah. Oh, my God. Get on it. Where is it? Beat It. Have you never heard of beetroot shots?

54:37Oh, they're great. Should I just drink loads of them? Yeah, you drink one a day. But I could have like three a day just to make up for this. No, I wouldn't do that. you are saying why they really make you they'll go through you and they turn everything red down there I yeah I mean okay so like you'll go to the loo and it's like shining and I thought I was dying the first time it happened to me I like looked down at the loo and it was just it's like when you take heights and you've forgotten that you've taken heights and you just pierce this like bright orange stuff and you go have I got hepatitis I thought I had to google it I remember the first time I took it I got sent some And then I remember like looking at this loo.

55:14I was like,

55:18I was like, that's really not good. And I did not, because I hadn't changed anything in my diet. I was like, oh my God, I'm actually ill. I'm so worried. And then I was like, okay, it's fine. And by the end of the day, I thought the same. I took it the next day, happened again. And I was like, what the fuck? I'm going to die. Luckily I didn't. But yeah, take Petrie. It's great for you. You'll be pleased to know that there's only two questions left. Okay. Survived so far.

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57:39if somebody's training for their first marathon or their first Ironman or kind of proper event what are the three things that they should focus on the most? I can't speak for the Ironman I guess if you're doing an Ironman focus on the swimming, running and biking those are the three things boom, ticked off 1-0 for running I think get a plan you can stick to the key here is realism okay just like sit down in front of the mirror realism just just sit in front of the mirror and just go can i actually do a sub three if the answer's no just you know or whatever the goal you think you're going to do is just please don't set a plan that is way too hard because you won't enjoy the process and just to build on that as well don't like if you're if you're thinking of if you're thinking you might want to go for a sub three like go and run like six or seven k at three hour marathon pace and see how you think you would fare right instead of just turning up to the marathon i'm just blasting it out of the gates you know like yeah choose a plan that you think you can stick to number of for example like if you've never started if you're just starting running don't go to six days a week running you know to do two three build up slowly choose a plan that's like realistic to your actual it's like new year's resolutions everyone starts out with 10 by January the 3rd you've got like four left because you've already broken them like choose something that's like realistic okay just do something that's like not too crazy and you're going to stick to it for far longer that's definitely the first point second point is um actually like try and find something you enjoy about running first before you sign up to a marathon because i think a lot of people sign up to a marathon and then just resent running i find that odd you see but like it's the same thing it's kind of like guys who go and play golf and like whinge about their wives yeah it's like you married her and like and and and and also like it's so true but also like what like we're on the ninth hole and it's like oh god go home to fucking lucy like it's like do you not like lucy like like you know you don't need to you don't with Lucy yeah yeah no one's got a gut to your head yeah yeah like this feels like it's your and Lucy's decision to be together I don't like I you know I know some people who are a little bit like that same with same with the marathon it's kind of like oh you know I've signed up to this fucking marathon yeah you know now I've got to go fucking running tonight I wish I could I've got to go fucking it's like what the fuck like nobody forced you to sign up to it it's free you literally sign up to it yeah like your choice yeah it's it's wild to me how many people same people as well and then there's always the yeah well yeah I think it's a character pattern.

1:00:20But there's a narrative online where it's like, I've just been to battle with this block. It's like, you're meant to enjoy it a little bit. The block's actually supposed to be fun. Yeah, you're meant to see your progress and be like, and then race day is the like celebration. And it's like, are you like, are we the same person apart from I'm slower? Like, that I said, race day should feel like the victory lap. Yeah. Because you've done all your work. And it's meant to be fun. You've controlled everything you can control. You've taken choice out of the matter. You've, you've, you've done it. Yeah.

1:00:50This is the time to go out and celebrate. Enjoy yourself. Exactly. Reap in the fruits of your, of your hard work. Yeah, blood, sweat and tears. And I'm not saying you don't have to sacrifice stuff during your marathon block. You have to usually, but it's also like, it's a season. It's a short period of time. Just try and find something in that routine that you enjoy. If maybe you like your interval sessions more, you know, I don't know if I can do it a bit harder or like work, do some more intervals. if you like your easy runs just focus on those like i was just i was just laughing there because i was at this track last night and my wife sent me a message just as i was about to start running yeah she was like i'm gonna cook um steak rice and broccoli tonight would you like some dream and i literally went oh my god yeah i'd love some thanks so much this is at like 5 p.m right and i was just like yeah that sounds great you know can't wait to see you just about to start my session about 20 minutes into the session i get a pinged message and like i opened the phone it was just like it's all cooked and ready i was like what are you talking about i was like it's it's i literally i was running right running on this is on the third the three lap thing i was running typing going like but i'm running like you know i'm running so would we not have cooked later i I did say, I was like, things like steak.

1:02:13I cook for her most of the time. Oh, do you? Yeah, yeah. I love that. I cook every day. I cook every day. And I did say to her, very lovingly, I did say like, I probably wouldn't cook your steak until you're physically in the building. Well, especially steak. Only because it doesn't sit well. No, it depends how thick it is. But usually it's like four minutes each side of the steak. You give it a, you know, you let the thing rest maybe and then eat it. The same amount of time as you've cooked it for, really. It's not a, I'll eat this in an hour's time. It's not, is it? No. It's like you never go to Farmer J's and get the steak.

1:02:46It's nice. Well, I mean, I had that lunch. Did you? It was quite good today. It's usually overdone. Yeah, you want to have it fresh. It had this lovely little sauce on it. Yeah, they really. It was a little... Or it was mustard, I think. Yes. It was a mustard sauce. It was a mustard sauce. Delicious. Delicious mustard sauce, yeah. The salad place in London are getting better. Attis is another great. Attis is wonderful. anyway that's enough of this thank you Hugo Frey for coming in I hope you got something good out of this I think so I think there's loads of stuff