Running Economy Explained: The Secret To Effortless Running | Extra Mile

0:00Ladies, gentlemen, children perhaps, welcome to Untapped, the extra mile with me Spencer Matthews. And me, Oli Patrick. We're just a couple of guys that like physiology and today we are going to be talking about running economy. We haven't had a single guest that's a runner that's come on and not spoken about running economy. But for whatever reason, I kind of think I know what it is. So I just, I don't, I don't throw it back at them. But can you explain exactly what running economy is? I think because watching your pursuit of the 245 and the sessions you're doing, I think you'll have a very good idea what running economy is.

0:40So what have you understood of running economy? It's how you move well with wasting as little energy as possible. Stunning. So, you know, when you see people who are running marathons kind of quickly, but it just almost looks fluid, like it's just a beautiful kind of range of motion, like those lads that look like they're floating, you know, at the front. they have tremendous running economy so they are you know running at call it two minute 50 per k pace whilst using as little energy as possible with as low heart rate as possible um you know and i'm sure there's loads of other elements to it steven scullion has like a rock star running economy right like he said so himself to me he said his running economy is is you know he's in a league of his own right he is actually quite heavy for a marathon runner he i think when he ran 209 he may have weighed 76 kilos or something like that yeah you know it's actually it's proper weight that's high end you know most elite marathoners who are sub 210 are about 60 63 kilos yeah so you know steven's carting around an additional 10 kilos on these lads which is which should have a tremendous knock-on effect on your running economy because it's harder of course to shift more weight than not.

2:08But Stephen is like, so when we go and do my, you know, threshold and beyond sessions, my speed sessions, you know, if you will, or VO2 max, we did a VO2 max session the other day. It was 35 degrees. And he took me to this kind of gravelly path in this little part of over near Wimbledon, uh in Wimbledon actually sorry but not the main park anyway doesn't matter uh and uh and it was kind of gravelly and a little little little ups and downs and peaks and troughs and whatever and and it's 800 meters and I was I was thumping into like you know 328 pace I think so for me that's you know that's speed work yeah um when I'm running at that pace I look like I'm making a big effort you know i'm kind of maybe one gear off a sprint you know so i'm using my arms i'm i'm really kind of striding my legs are are really kind of gunning for it like it's it's quite clear that i can't sustain that pace for any meaningful amount of time yeah um steven in comparison to me running at the exact same pace looks like he's walking or shuffling yeah you know like like he he's a shuffler he he's like this and um you know his stride is tiny like he doesn't he doesn't make any strides right so to run three 20 pace even right he just he looks like um you know he's popping down to Tesco's yeah he just doesn't look like he's doing anything his arms are basically locked into his chest not really moving his upper body is very very still you know even at that pace which for me is quite fast yeah and i imagine when he begins to really open up and push himself then he'll he'll appear to be doing more but you know he travels at broadly speaking my you know 85 to 90 percent pace like chilling chatting to the camera yeah so like so he'll have a very low heart rate at that at that pace he could sustain that pace for the full marathon and beyond.

4:22So 3.30, 3.28 pace is a 2.30 marathon. So it's a 2.29 marathon. Stephen's 20 minutes faster than that. So, you know, real extraordinary stuff. And long-winded answer, but that is running economy. So somebody that can move fast without looking fast is good running economy, I would have thought. I think that's very well put. And here again, we move into two facets. It's part physiological, but also significantly biomechanical. So what you've described there is an awful lot of sort of the efficiency of the way Stephen runs. There's something about the way he is conducting the behavior of running that looks like he's expending less energy than you.

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7:06And for the grownups, Ollie's sleep helps you fall asleep, stay asleep, and wake up feeling refreshed. Because as you know, the morning mayhem comes early. Visit Ollie.com and stock up on back-to-school must-haves today. That's O-L-L-Y dot com. These statements have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. This product is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. You are. Because he is. That's the core reality. i think if we think vo2 max we got this number that we've spoken about a lot and if people haven't checked out the youtube of you doing a vo2 max i i strongly consider they should i speak to lots of people in the fitness sector i say that's such a lovely again opportunity to see someone doing and completing a full open circuit spirometry and doing the whole thing but let's imagine we had two spencer matthews um one with good running economy one with non-good running economy both have got a vo2 max of 62 right 62 milliliters per kilogram so your both of those dispensers could consume 62 milliliters of oxygen per kilogram per minute at their maximum exertion um when they both and let's imagine to hit vo2 max they were running at a speed of 20 kilometers per hour right on a treadmill whatever that is per minutes per kilometer you can you can work backwards from let's imagine they both go for a run in the wilds and one is really worked on it's 254 i think okay that's nice that seems reasonable so both you know one spencer has really worked on strides and one spencer has really worked on strength work and one spencer has really worked on the biomechanics of running so he's become efficient and we set the treadmill to 16 kilometers per hour and for spencer one the one that hasn't done that work they're going to use 48 milliliters per kilogram to sustain 16 kilometers per hour so they're going to use that's how much oxygen they'll consume because that clunky blocky undisciplined running version of you is going to be less efficient is going to be using again different energy systems but also different biomechanics so they're consuming 48 milliliters per kilogram to combust at 16 kilometers an hour next to them is the silkster the smooth the gliding spencer who's really targeted again the the efficiency he's got the the stephen scullion glide and that guy's running with with using 43 milliliters per kilogram they've both got the same engine size but running economy is the oxygen cost at a given speed.

9:29And here we end up with the idea that the only thing that will define how well you do in an event is how taxing it is to you, not the speed you're running at. The speed you're running at is an external validation of your performance. The most important metric is how hard is it to that individual. And the more efficient you are, and that efficiency contains an awful lot of things, but the smoother, more biomechanically, you know, by biomechanics, I mean the movement patterns, the balance of the muscles, the strength of the muscles the quality of your tendons to return energy you know in there we've got the shoe adding a percentage you know which one's got a you know an intelligent shoe which one's got a a dumb old shoe all that plays into fact the speed on the treadmill is the same the total capacity is the same but the spencer with the running economy is the one holding the conversation and the spencer who didn't do that work is the one who's blustering and shaking and shivering and the one who's obviously going to fail first and fail faster so i think that's what most people looking at is how would i make myself able to obtain the highest possible running output at the lowest possible oxygen and exertive cost and that's a multitude of things but it pushes you largely and squarely at some of the technical parts of your running which makes you a better runner you know when you watch a swimmer swim is much more obvious you see a swimmer who's super smooth and you see me swimming and i look like i'm drowning it's not who's fit you probably are a little bit i'm a little drowny but you know it's it's like that that's so clear you know when you say a great swimmer you're a good swimmer a good example not really a good example of this and i'm sure he i'm not having a go i'm sure he won't mind me saying this even if he did listen uh which i'm sure he doesn't but perhaps he does he has been a guest on the show before have you ever seen the images or footage even of tommy fury finishing his i have seen tommy fury closing it out so that's like just horrendous running economy like it just couldn't be you couldn't be wasting more energy right like he kind of and again like definitely not great athlete wonderful athlete a very nice gentleman uh but wasting a a shitload of energy yeah when he runs arms flailing around everywhere exactly very much using your upper body he looks like a kind of you know flintstones character you know and and you know your fists basically never need to be above your head when you're running ever you know no clear logic to that and if you are running and your arms are kind of like up like just that is wasted energy you know you see some people in the park and i'm not saying that um i'm the most fluid runner i'm certainly not but you know you can you can really see when some people are just wasting unnecessary energy yeah um so i guess that that's part of economy right you want you want to as i say you know if you're looking at these kenyan superstars kind of looks like they could run at that pace all day you know they're just not they're not they don't look like they're exerting themselves and actually they make it look easy so like when you're looking at that pace yeah that pace is like 21 kilometers per hour right if you were to jump on a treadmill and run at 21 kilometers an hour you will be in in tremendous amounts of pain quite quickly you know like you lots your average person isn't doing much more than you know 60 seconds and who knows your average person is probably doing a lot less than that you know yeah yeah but it but it's kind of you know you you could find people who are doing a minute or two all over the place or whatever but yeah you would be breathing very heavily wasting lots of energy using your upper body to pull you forward after after a certain amount of time your stride would decrease and get shorter uh you'd be in you know a lot of pain and these lads make it look like they're coasting in kind of second gear to you know second third gear they look like they could go a lot faster they probably can and over a brief period the big thing you remember on tiktok there's sometimes footage of a person who's doing something on a production line but they're doing it so ridiculous that there was a guy who was in a factory i can't remember what he was doing but he was basically like de-skinning a banana chopping it into 12 pieces you know putting it into a box dropping it behind him and doing it while sort of listening with headphones on looking around the place that that's a great example of running economy he's become so efficient in that movement pattern that he can now do it almost subconsciously if you watch someone who's learning to juggle they're all over the place and then you watch a really efficient juggler they barely move and and that's the beauty of the human machine it learns to just expend less unnecessary energy the more it does something so your first driver of running economy tends to be just volume right if you run an awful lot more you start to eradicate unnecessary components of that movement i have found that you can really focus on running economy when you're at a certain level of fitness i found the before when I was kind of first getting into running, you know, of course you start running and you think, you know, how can I run well, but, but actually, you know, you're sort of limited by what your body can do at a certain heart rate over a certain distance anyway, because you haven't built the capacity to run properly.

14:46When you get to, I don't know, that next level, you can kind And you know you're comfortable running at a certain heart rate for a certain distance. And even some of the faster paces maybe feel incredibly comfortable. You can then start to go, am I striking properly? Is my heel going as far back as it should? Should I try and elongate my stride here? What are my arms doing? Should my hands be in this place? what is the correct you know level of movement for my upper body at this pace and how can i make it more efficient i even said to steven in our 245 group i said i feel i can feel my running economy getting better because i can i'm focusing on striking with a flat foot and and you know just really you know you see people battersea park's the best park for for running i think you know you see these incredible people glide past you yes uh and come the other way and i've now got I don't know, maybe 30 friends who are incredible runners.

15:50And, you know, you go running with them and you notice things. You notice that their hips are slightly different and, you know, they've got a slightly arched back and that, you know, their center of gravity is above, you know, the middle where it should be and they're not leaning forward and they're not running in a muscular way. And it's kind of like, so you pick up these little tips and it means, you know, when you think about it, it's kind of interesting because... Who says Halloween only lasts one day? With Wayfair, one night of Halloween becomes a whole season at home. From larger-than-life yard decor and moody lighting to festive accents for every room in the house, Wayfair has what you need to make Halloween feel like magic all in one place.

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18:45when your gravity is centered and you know call it slightly forward like sort of like a joystick and you know you're and you're striking in the right places um there is less exertion on your body you know when you're sprinting and you're leaning forward and you're really kind of like knees high you know angling for you know that next bit of track really far forward that that running economy is um is out the window you know that you're you're wasting as much energy as you possibly can essentially because you're trying to be as fast as you can possibly go it's a different sport essentially you know sprinters over 100 meters um you know we've had loads on the show just um they wouldn't be focused on on running economy at all they'd be focused on on kind of style and explosive power and and you know how it all feels and looks but it's not the same thing because they're not engaged in the activity for long enough for it to matter yeah it's different it's i would say to both areas it's reviewing the biomechanics as a skill the great danger is people think you know running is just who's got the bigger engine or who's got the higher lactate threshold without forgetting there is a genuine skill to this and that skill will be you know part of the facet there is how strong you are there's how stiff your tendons are there's you know how deep you can go into um your energy production while still utilizing fat and and you know your anaerobic thresholds but the skill bit does matter and some people have a natural fluidity and were clearly born to run we've talked in the past about somatotypes got some people who were born with big broad shoulders and a much higher predisposition to lay down fast twitch muscle fibers and and big strength athlete predisposition there are others who've got that ectomorph slow twitch muscle fibers you know who are much more designed for for long distance events be that running swimming you know cardiorespiratory exercise i think the core reality here is you can undervalue how technical expertise or how much technical expertise there is in running and once you realize there's an awful lot you realize there's an awful lot more to unlock but the beginner the person doing the couch to 5k they're limited by their capability of their cardiovascular system more and more accurately their cardiorespiratory system you will get to a point where you say right now for me to go to the next frontier it's no longer having a you know greater stroke volume or more blood you know volume or more red blood cells or more capillaries i'm not a great runner because i'm not a great runner and now is it changing posture as you rightly say is it doing strides is it doing some box jumps is it doing you know single leg calf raises in the gym there is many things you can do now to unlock the ability to be running at the same speed in six months time but using five ten percent less of your engine because you've just got better at being a runner it is it is interesting because you know things that were previously painful just just you know go away like i remember trying to run my first sub 20 minute 5k and it was just ghastly you know the the worst you know experience whereas it whereas now you know you could i can i can do that blindfolded as a warm-up you know whatever you know down to volume all the things you've been you know because now you you're getting quality coaching you put volume in you've got structure you've got strength training if you had to retrofit you know the biggest thing that's turned you from that you're busting your butt to get you know 1959 5k to now running it in training what what would you say is the two three biggest things um speed work definitely so getting comfortable at paces far faster than the ones you need to be traveling at.

22:34I think that's a real mistake of runners who want to, say, run a three-hour marathon. They do huge proportions of their training at, you know, 4.10, 4.11 per K, which is what you need to be doing for the whole race. And, you know, they'll get to a stage where they can run 20, 25 K and feel quite comfortable. And they'll go, okay, great. On the day, I just need to do, you know, two of these. And it's kind of like, that's a tough line to tread. And I was in that group, like constantly chasing the sub three hour running around those times. What you should really be doing is shorter bursts of work at kind of 350 per K and it's 20 seconds per K faster.

23:24And although you'll likely never be completely comfortable at that pace, if that's the race time you're going for, unless you, you know, adjust the race time you're going for and do a lot of training even faster than that. It's, you know, your body starts to learn to handle, you know, that pace. It wasn't too long ago where, you know, I wouldn't be running a lap of the track at 3.30. And now, you know, I can clip off, you know, a couple of K at that pace. So it's kind of... Speed work. That's great description of speed work. Speed work is good. but then also just getting comfortable at, at speeds, you know?

24:00So I think initially start with like, you know, 200 meters, 400 meters, you know, and then rep those. So, you know, go to the track and do 10 times 400 meters, like pretty much flat out, you know, like as hard as you can go, bit of recovery between the reps, you know, really teach your body, like, I need you to go fast. So you're going to get used to it and it's going to hurt because to your point, you know, it'll, it'll hurt less and less the more you do it, you know, your body will adapt and it'll go shit. he wants me to do that fast thing again you know so like i need to get faster um so there's a bit of that obviously just miles in the legs you know that's that's just very helpful like i'm i'm quite bad at the old recovery run like i you know i find it a bit of a boring plot but this morning uh went out nice and early for a run and i i thought i'm i'm really just gonna like take my foot off the gas i want to have i want to do you know 8k with a heart rate of sub 130 you know because my recovery is all the way up to kind of 150, you know, still before it hits into zone three.

25:03But I know some amazing runners that do just do a lot like in zone one, you know, they just plot around and listen to a podcast and enjoy themselves. And I went out and did that this morning and I actually genuinely like really enjoyed it, you know, just running. Did you listen to anything or did you run without? Five minute Ks for the first time in weeks, you know, my slowest K since I've been training with Stevens probably a 4.45 type thing, which isn't, you know, which is quite slow. But it's, but, you know, it's just building miles, running a lot, obviously is going to be helpful. But yeah, form, focusing on your form and sticking to a plan is very helpful for me.

25:42And also it does just tick away. It does just tick away. It's strange, you know, things that you found really hard even a few weeks ago may suddenly feel easy. You know, it does click. If you give yourself to the sport, it does just suddenly start to work for you. Well, there's three big things there, pal. There's speed work, there is volume, and there's form. So I think that is a great template for all of those things would mean you're more now, you know, the speed you're running at, you are using less of your engine, which is the sort of definition of running economy. And then once that is true, what else is true?

26:20Now I can do this, what else can I do? and everything builds on the step that you've built the sort of three, four weeks before, which is beautiful. But that's a great, there is no quick way to get running economy. Once I've got significant cardiorespiratory fitness, it's a volume play, it's a form play, it's a speed play, it's a strength play. And all of those things mean that you're then one day going to be trotting around Battersea Park running 4 minute 20k pace while having a really gentle conversation and you might be in 135, 140 beats per minute. That is not unrealistic for people who do that yardage.

26:56When you went on the long run, did you listen to podcasts? Were you free as a bird? I had a bit of music on this morning. I went on a beautiful long run with my son's PE teacher from school on Saturday. We ran 24K in the sun. It was beautiful. Just beautiful. And it reminded us why we love running so much. because it was just such a great day. That's what you should all be doing. Lace up your shoes, your puma fast hours, and get to the track and blow yourselves up. It's beautiful. But what was great about that is your running economy allowed you to enjoy that. So again, some people think, oh my God, the idea of going for a run with someone blowing up my butt.

27:39The better your running economy, the more you can do pretty impressive tasks without it being totally systemically overwhelming. and so you unlock the ability to truly enjoy running you know and without that you know listening to your heavy breathing listen to yourself gasping for air you know the better you get at this the more enjoyment i think there is to unlock and it's just convincing people to stick with the volume convincing people to alternate with the pace to do the strength work to focus on form and in there you will become a more economical runner because that's what the body's always going to try and do so it's running economy for all it's just some people have achieved a far greater level than others and you and Stephen are in that camp.

28:19I'm in the grower's camp. Well, I'm not anywhere near Stephen's camp, but thank you. It's a tearing system. It's a tearing system. Yes. The day that I can turn around to Stephen and say, you know, the pupil has become the master is a long way away.

28:38But, you know, you never know. Yeah, and given that we're the same age, it'll probably never happen, which is a shame. you know the more serious athletes and people should be focused on running economy or how which way around do you see it i think v80 match is the foundation of life we we call it the life number we've we've patented that and rolled that out you know i think v80 max is the bedrock of all things because of course your v80 max isn't just your cardiorespiratory ability and exercise it's also you know a longevity parameter it's it's sitting behind your immune system it's sitting behind everything so you know and there we end up with the well how would i increase my cardiorespiratory capacity it might be polarized training 20 high intensity work 80 you know sort of zone two or in and around that area that is the foundation of all things um endurance but i can have a really high vat max and then be an awful runner because i haven't got the skill haven't got the strength haven't got the you know the the volume so if i want to be a good runner and use less of my vat max then i must do the running economy work as well and there you'll end up with a traditional sort of polarized training schedule, which will have some plyometrics thrown in there, some box jumps and some bounding.

29:47It'll have some strides in there. It'll have some speed work. And when you look at the construct of a modern training program, it's reconciled exactly as you started that, Spencer. It is, of course, both. I need a big engine, but when I'm running, I want to use as little of it as possible. And it's not either. It's both, but historically, it would be build the engine first and then learn how to become efficient at only ever calling on a smaller portion of it because that will be the thing that makes you enjoy those runs in the same way as you did that lovely sounding trot at the weekend. It's got me salivating.

30:21And it's not even food. My feet are salivating. Oh, yes. Righto. Well, on Ollie's sweaty feet as an end note, we bid you farewell and thank you for your listenership. If you do enjoy the show, you can check us out on YouTube. We're also on all podcast platforms. And drop us a five-star review. And drop us five stars in a review if you love us, because we love you. And we will see you next week for another episode of Untapped with a guest. And then, of course, Untapped the Extra Mile with my gorgeous friend, Oliver Patrick. Magnificent. Can't wait.

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