The Truth About Jamie & Spencer’s Fallout (And Their Friendship Now)

0:00I'm Spencer Matthews and you're listening to Untapped, where elite athletes and inspirational people show us how we can all untap more of our potential. This week, my guest is Jamie Laing and this one goes deeper than you might expect. Jamie opens up about the crippling anxiety he's hid for years, the truth behind why our friendship has suffered and what he's discovered about what it really means to be happy today. It's emotional, funny and one of the most honest conversations we've had on this podcast. Let's get Untapped with Jamie Laing. Isn't this fun? It's so fun. So where do you want to begin?

0:35What are you going to ask me today? I'm really... What is your interview style? This is what I want to know. What is your interview technique? Well, you're about to find out. Because obviously I'm interviewing you. Let's specifically talk about your ultra marathons. Okay. Did you feel from the beginning that you'd bitten off more than you could chew? how did it come to be and just take me through it so Comic Relief basically said would you like to do Comic Relief Challenge that they do with Radio 1 every single year right so Radio 1 presenter gets asked to do something for Comic Relief and they came to me in the December and said would you like to do this or November November December because someone had dropped out and I said yeah 100 % I'll do it and one of the reasons I actually wanted to do Radio 1 was because I want to do this comic relief challenge because I thought it would be really fun to put myself outside whatever, my comfort zone.

1:32And they said, okay, brilliant. I said, well, I kind of perceived this as a sort of posh idiot. So no one's going to give me any cash for donations because why would they? So we've got to make it really hard. And they went, okay. And I sort of considered a lot of different things. Like I was going to swim the channel at one point, but I was swimming to train for that's quite a lot. like I was gonna it was like lots of things being thrown around in my head and then I thought well why don't I run to Manchester because Manchester is where there's Radio City in Manchester my co-host at the time was having a baby in Manchester Katie Thistleton and I thought what would be funny is I'd learn to be a doula and then deliver Katie's baby by running to Manchester to deliver it that was my whole plan Katie was like that's pretty inappropriate so we won't be doing that and I was like but it's a really good idea anyway I'll take the doctor thanks yeah I'll take the doctor so I was like okay fine so I'll do it but then I said well I'll run to Manchester that would be a good idea and they said okay well it's like over 150 miles over five days do you think you can do that and honestly spent in my head I was like I've done cross country I'm a pretty good runner I didn't think it was going to be I never thought it was going to be easy that's totally wrong but I thought I can get through this right that's what I thought and before that my most I'd probably run was like a 10k like I did one 14k during COVID.

2:55That was the most I'd ever run. And I stopped after 14k because I was like, this is a bit boring. I just got bored running. And so I was like, okay, fine. And on the 1st of January, I chat GPT'd. How long does it take to train for an ultramarathon? Which we know is anything above a marathon. So mine was like 50 odd kilometers a day. And it said, takes a year and a half. So I was like, well, that's not going to work. So I was like, okay, well, I'm just going to go into it naive. And I actually believe that naivety is our biggest weapon. The more experienced we are at things, the less likely we're to do it, right?

3:31So the reason why kids climb to the top of the tree when they're younger, because they're not scared about falling, right? Now we wouldn't climb to the top of the tree because we know what it's like to fall. We're scared. So we've become too experienced in our own lives, really. So you have to kind of unlearn stuff, which is quite hard. So I basically was like, I'm going to go naive into it. I'm just going to see what happens and just go for it. So I trained. I did 5Ks. I did 10Ks. I did one 25 kilometer run, one, and it sucked. I was like, this is brutal. I finished in Hyde Park. I can't do this again.

4:07So I just didn't do anything longer than that again. So what made you want to continue with the challenge when you would find 25k difficult? Because I knew I'd do it. Weirdly, my brain is like the way that I, I'm like really good in like a crisis, weirdly. If there's like a fire, I'll be pretty good, I reckon. I'm really good in like crisis moments. So I knew that I would just, once it gets going, I'll just do it. And I'm quite like, the way I'm built, I'm built for like, pulling out weeds in the ground. Like I'm quite like, robust. I'm quite like, You're built for pulling out, for weeding. Yeah, I'd be like, back in the day, I'd be like a really good weeder.

4:51I'm just quite robust and I was good at rugby as a kid. So I was like muscle memory, everything like that. So I was like, I'll just probably, and I'm pretty resilient. So, but also I had my North Star, which we always have to have, which we spoke about before. Like you always have to have this North Star in life. I think it doesn't matter what you're doing. If it's in work, what is your North Star? The reason why you're doing it in your relationship. Why are you getting into it? If you're just getting into relationship because your dad or mom or friend told you to. There's no point. No, why do you want to have a relationship?

5:17Why do you want to get married? Why do you want to have kids? And so for me, my run was the why was I wanted to prove to people that I could do it and that people wouldn't just think I was this posh idiot. Maybe there was a bit of that. And secondly, you know, I suffered with crippling anxiety in my 20s, like so bad that it was just horrendous at times. And I never spoke about it. I never spoke of it to anyone. Those things combined, that North Star, so I want to then run it for people who, anyone who has suffered with any sort of mental health. So anyone who's suffered with anxiety, depression, OCD, insomnia, whatever it is, because I truly believe it's like a lava running through villages and towns throughout the UK.

6:00I really do. And so, and this metaphor of putting one foot in front of the other, when times are really tough, you just got to keep going. So my North Star was for all of those things and for those people who know someone, who is someone who was someone who has suffered. And so then I had my reason for doing it. Please do follow or subscribe to the show wherever you're listening. It only takes a moment, but it makes a huge difference to us. We have truly incredible guests every single week and you wouldn't want to miss an episode. Hey guys, it's Drew from the comment section. Some days my skin just needs a little coverage and other days I want to go full glam.

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8:18We have always been very close until, you know, we've had our very well-documented hiccup in the press that people, for some reason, are obsessed with. I get asked about it quite a lot, by the way. I had a business lunch today at midday. And when I said I was seeing you, the girl who was there said, oh, so like, what's with your guys' friendship? Like, are you guys actual friends? And I get that all the time. And I kind of know why that is, obviously. I had a very similar thing with Vogue. Like when I left the podcast with Vogue, the general assumption from the Daily Mail and, you know, press was that we're getting divorced.

9:03and they would write that despite the fact that we would say that we weren't and we had a similar thing around the wedding me not getting invited to the British wedding and then our relationship kind of you know crumbled around that you know we went into more detail in it on your podcast so we don't need to cover it in as much detail here but there's a kind of general obsession with whether or not you and I are friends but I think the difference is right We didn't talk about this, but the difference is that I think I genuinely care about our friendship, which I think you do now, and I think you do, but I think you care more about what people perceive you as.

9:43I don't care as much about that. I don't care about what headlines say. Really. I don't pay any attention to that. I would only ever see those articles if I was looking something up about myself. So say I'd given an article, so say I'd given an interview about something and I wanted to read the interview, I would then notice like there's four headlines saying, Jamie and Spencer aren't mates or Spencer and Vogue are getting divorced. And it would be kind of, I'm not sure that's accurate at all, me caring about people's perception. When articles were coming out about you and I not being friends or whatever, that didn't bother me.

10:19Because that doesn't bother me. Because whether or not that's true or not true, who cares? For me, that is. I like, who cares? and I would argue that those article headlines bothered you more. Well, they bothered me more at the time, I suppose, because they were about me. Like me snubbing your challenge, me not being your pal, like me having done something, which I felt wasn't fair. I agree, by the way, our friendship is none of anybody's business. It's certainly not tabloid press, right? It doesn't matter. And it comes as the sort of, because we're in the industry, right? So it's just like, that's what comes with it.

11:05It's more, yeah, it was more kind of, you know, like your challenge for the record was a really beautiful thing to watch. I didn't snub your challenge at all. I know that you're not expecting soppy posts from me either, because I don't ever do those. But it was kind of, I don't know. I felt that it was all a bit jagged and just not true or fair. You know, I congratulated you at the end of your challenge. And it kind of like almost wasn't enough that I wasn't there and I didn't come to support you. You know, there's a reason I wasn't there. I wasn't invited. So, you know, the whole thing to me felt...

11:53But the argument is that like, if you look at the flip side of it, right? Everyone who came weren't invited. Well, of course they were. No, no, they weren't. People just turned up at the finish line. I didn't invite them. What do you mean? So when Sam and JP and stuff come and see you along the way, obviously the BBC have invited them. No, JP just surprised me. How did he know where you were? He's got in touch with the BBC. That is, I'm not kidding, that is not, no word of life. JP got in touch and that's how he came to join me. So when he arrived, it was like a big surprise. I didn't know he was coming.

12:24But these things are obviously organized, Jimmy. Probably by the BBC, but not by me. So I don't know. Sorry, I'm not suggesting that you ordered your own surprises. The BBC absolutely reached out to your friends and gave them options to come and see you. I think Josh, it was the other way around. Josh, I think, from what he said to me, he reached out. I was so in the thick of running and in so much pain and just so out of it because I didn't train enough. like I just I just didn't train that much that I was so heavy down that I was only thinking about getting up the next thing and being able to run that's the only thing I was thinking about honestly that is that is that is really the truth of it and things were organized by I reckon the BBC or by yes obviously the BBC organized things along the way obviously but as in like someone like whatever when Oli Proudluck turned up I had no idea he was turning up that was a complete surprise yeah but obviously the BBC invited him.

13:23I'm sure they did, yes. You don't just turn up to Manchester and hope to bump into you guys. Yeah, but everyone in Manchester who just arrived just turned up. Yeah, obviously they're just in the streets, but like, you know, had I come to support you, I wouldn't have just driven to Manchester and hoped to see you. You know, it kind of doesn't really work like that. Obviously there'd be some communication with the BBC. Yes, yes, yes and no. The finish line, loads of people did just turn up. Like, people turned up just to be like there. But I also totally get you and I, the point is more, you and I weren't as friendly at that time.

13:59So in our relationship here, it's like if I wasn't as friendly with you and you weren't as friendly with me, then why would you turn up? Because we weren't talking as much. But the press and whoever or whatever these are don't understand that. So they just expect you to be there because they don't know that perhaps we had had a fallout or whatever it was. And that's frustrating for you, I get, because it's frustrating because if someone is saying stuff in the press that isn't true, it's really annoying and upsetting. That is really upsetting, which I totally get. In the last few years, I feel like we've both changed a lot.

14:33And I'm wondering from you what lessons you've learned that you could share with me and the listeners about you making changes to your life. Like, how do you feel about yourself? And coming from an anxious background that I'd love to talk to you about more. Because to be honest, as one of your closest friends, I wasn't really aware of it. I mean, where I was, was a place where I didn't, I don't think I felt as confident as I thought I was probably. So I grew up right. And I was always kind of like good at sport. And I was always okay at school. And everything was kind of all right. And everything was set out for me.

15:16And it was great. Right. When we left university and then came into the big world, that's when things became trickier for me in lots of different ways. But what I've learned over the last few years is that my whole sort of perception of life has changed. I used to think, right, that success meant all the cheesy things, right? Success meant you had to be financially wealthy and you had to be popular and you had to drive great cars. All the usual things that we sort of think, and what Emma said before. Materialistic stuff. But not even so much materialistic. It's just things that don't actually really gain that much happiness, right?

15:57And I've realized over the past few years that having like a really good North Star, having a really good purpose, having a really great family and friends around you and great connections, that's really what fulfills me. So I went from a life not really focusing on that to a life now focusing on those type of things. That's what's changed. I feel like I'm constantly changing my thought process and what's important as well. I don't know. The things that truly matter to me are the constants in my life, right? My children, my wife, my work, my well-being, my health. Great. Prioritizing just be as healthy as I can be for a person of my age.

16:38You want to live for your children, in my opinion. So I would love to see, you know, my three kids grow up, get married, have lovely lives, you know, grow to be interesting characters themselves, do exciting and interesting things with their life, hopefully end up having a really beautiful relationship with them being in their lives. You know, that's kind of like what life is about now. But this is a really important point, right? We don't really plan our lives that well. And our lives are like the most important thing. I think we actually forget about that because we kind of, all of us slightly, not everyone, but I definitely was doing this, bumbling through life, not really knowing what I wanted to do or where I wanted to go or what I wanted to become.

17:19And I think what I've done over the last few years is so every end of year, I will sit in complete silence for two hours and I'll write everything that I've achieved in the year and everything that I want to achieve the next year. And so I then put it out. So I look at what I... Where do you put that? I put it in a drawer that I have and I've kept over the last two years. So I have it in a drawer. And so I do that. So everything that I have achieved and then everything I want achieved. And then what I do is I look at the stuff the year before that I want to achieve and see if it matches up. And so I have some sort of a plan, right?

17:51That's what I do. So first I do that. And then secondly, I'm always now giving gratitude. gratitude and and sounds like such a cheesy thing to do but like i'm always giving gratitude so every single night i go to bed every single morning i wake up i get to the edge of my bed and i say thank you for all the things that are happening to who to god i i don't know i don't really know i don't really know who no but that's that's really interesting because you're not a religious person so so it's is it a spiritual thing we obviously have just come from having a conversation in your podcast, which I was talking about, Thin Space and...

18:26It's not a... I think... I think it's really important to, like, be really thankful for stuff. It doesn't matter who it's to, just be really thankful. Like, I went to... And maybe it's because I'm having kids and everything like that, but I went to this award called the World Child Awards. You see these parents, like, looking after these, like, really sick kids. And they are true heroes. it's like unbelievable true heroes and they don't really get the recognition they get recognized maybe what one day out of 365 days where they go and get an award and and for me i was just like god why do i get to be so lucky i can breathe i can walk on two feet i can i have a wonderful wife i have a nice home i have all these amazing things so because of all of that i'm a lot more now realize i realize a lot more how thankful i am so there's that and then in terms of like my life how I've changed it and what my North Star is, I sort of put it into buckets almost.

19:26So I really want my family life to be amazing and be as healthy as it can be. Because I sort of, in my life, I genuinely think that like 70 % of my happiness comes from my relationship. I sort of think it's probably that high. So I make sure that's really good. And then in my business life, I have like an idea of what I want to achieve there and my goals there. So I'm kind of putting everything into buckets and know where I'm heading. If I know where I'm going the whole time, then I can kind of achieve my goals. If Sophie is, and I'm going to come back to that in a sec, if Sophie is in a bad mood with you, how bad is your day?

20:05Terrible. I'm not good at it. If Sophie's in a bad mood or upset with me or I've done something wrong, it affects me badly. I'd say it's far more than 70%, by the way, the effect that it has. Maybe, maybe it's higher. that literally Vogue's mood is single-handedly the biggest thing that impacts my mood. Yeah. Like if we wake up and we often make an effort in the morning to be extra specially nice to everyone, right? We just like, we wake up and try and be, have lots of positive energy like coffees and how can I help? How can I do that? Because we used to find that if one of us was slightly grinchy or like in a bit of a bad mood, It really wrecks the vibe in the whole house.

20:52I sent my brother, my little brother, who's 20, right? He's 20 years old. And he constantly asked me questions about life, right? Because he's on his year out. He's in Singapore. He's studying. He's like, what am I going to do? He kind of wants to go into the artistic world. But also, he's sort of thinking that's quite tricky to make work. And so he constantly asked me questions. And I sent him a message literally this morning when I was on the plane. He said, what's really important in life? he asked me. That was the question he asked me on a text. On a text. That's pretty. Yeah, well, he's thinking about life.

21:25He's going through that moment. And I said, the most important thing in life, really and truly for me, really and truly in capital, I said, if you want to get married and have a family, that is, find someone who is kind, loving, your friend picks you up when you're down, makes you laugh and you the other way around. 80 % of your happiness, if you want a long term relationship, will come from your partner. The rest is a lot of fickle. But I truly think that's where true happiness comes from. And he went, really? And I really believe, I truly believe that. And I think we underestimate that. I think, well, for me, that's where my real true happiness comes from.

22:01Work is great. Achieving things is great. But relationship is so important. But also, nurturing the relationship and growing it and evolving it and developing it is just as important. You know, if you're in love with your work as well, right, and your relationship takes a back seat, and you're just constantly out, you know, building the dream essentially, and chasing it at the detriment of your core relationship, your marriage at home, then who are you winning for? You know what I mean? Because actually it puts distance between, call it your wife just as an example. Like if you go out and you just chase your goals relentlessly thinking, by the way, all the time that you're doing it for the family.

22:45Like I want to create this incredible brand so that we can live the life we've always dreamed of. And you're always absent. This isn't specific to you. There is a serious danger of work becoming the kind of enemy in the relationship. and then you're walking this fine line between you know chasing success and remaining you know in love i suppose and it creates this divide i was chatting to robin sharma about it and he said you know the amount of billionaires that he's coached who are just alone on their yachts and alone you know kids have left kids don't even know who they are because they were some people yeah it's it's hard to imagine you know doing both well really but it's also hard to imagine that you would prefer the yacht over a loving family.

23:35That's a strange... I don't know. I think some people get a lot of... I don't know. I don't know. I have no idea. But there is a lot of stuff out there at the moment that people are saying that you, in order to become highly successful and achieve all the things you want to achieve, you have to sacrifice family and everything. And your family are going to have to know that you're not going to be there for the next 10 years. And you're going to have to sleep on the office floor. But I think, I really truly think you can have a balance. and yes if you were going to do work family and friends one of those is probably going to suffer and typically it's friends that's what goes first and then it's work and family life and that's quite a hard balance but I think you can make a balance and for me what I've realized is all about communication I never used to communicate ever because I just didn't have time to communicate, what do you mean?

24:23and I used to think that Sophie could read my mind so of course she knows that I'm busy, of course she knows I've got to do it. But no, your partner doesn't know that. And Sophie's busy as well. She wouldn't communicate with me. So if you communicate, then you can have a really great relationship, I think. So when you're in your rocking chair, like 90 whatever years old, and Vogue is next to you, and you're going back and forth, what do you want to have achieved and done? What do you want to go, oh, yes. Well, I think if we're still next to each other, firstly, at 98 or whatever it is, that would be a fantastic achievement.

24:53Not because it's hard, but because that would just be a monster success story. Yeah. You know, being married for 60-odd years. Yeah. That'd be great. What do I want to have achieved? I would love for my children in particular and, you know, their kids and whatever to look at me with admiration. I think that... There we go, nailed it. I think that admiration is a really beautiful thing. I think if you can feel proud of yourself, but on the other side of that, having people to admire is a wonderful thing. And you can admire, you know, you don't have to admire big famous people or big famous CEOs.

25:34You can admire your wife, right? I admire my wife. So I take on parts of my wife. I admire my dad. I admire my mom. I admire my brother. I'm really lucky. I've got lots of people in my own family that I can admire. And I would like to be admired by younger people and my own kids and my wife. Nailed it. When you would hide your anxiety from people, what did it feel like and how aggressive was it? 75 % of women who seek menopause care don't receive it. The lying awake at 3 a.m. wondering what's happening to your body ends now. MIDI is virtual care built for women in perimenopause and menopause with clinicians who specialize in women's health.

26:19Plus, it's covered by most major insurances. Getting started is easy. You can book your first visit with a clinician right away. Midlife needs MIDI. Visit JoinMIDI.com to book your first visit today. That's JoinMIDI.com. Insurance coverage varies. Check with your plan for coverage. You need something from Lowe's, but your day is already jam-packed. Since Milo's Rewards and Milo's Pro Rewards members get free same-day delivery, we'll make the run for you. Seriously, just lock in your order and we'll do the rest. See you soon Members get more at Lowe's $25 minimum and loyalty membership required Order eligible items by 2pm Subject to weight and size restrictions and availability Terms at lowes.com slash shipping terms Hey guys, it's Drew from the comment section Some days my skin just needs a little coverage And other days I want to go full glam For those everyday moments like running errands or grabbing coffee I've been loving the Merit Minimalist Stick because it's a foundation and concealer in one that gives me a really natural skin-like finish.

27:24But when I want more coverage, I'm reaching for the Hourglass Vanish Concealer every time. I know I'm not the only one who struggled to find the right foundation or concealer shade, which is why I always shop at Sephora. They have the best brands all in one place with so many shades, coverage options, and finishes, plus expert beauty advisors, free samples, and shade matching tools both online and in-store. So whether you're looking for barely there coverage or full glam, Sephora can help you find your match.

27:55It's hard to sort of, for someone who hasn't experienced anxiety, which I think you may have like experienced some forms of it, but maybe not. Like the, it's like crippling. Because what happens with anxiety, in my experience, is that when it comes on, which it did like so aggressively without even knowing what it is, you're so confused by it, you don't know what it is I went going from this sort of really outgoing confident young individual to suddenly like a light switch I was totally different the next day and I've spoken about it before but it all started from a panic attack I had a panic attack I didn't even know what a panic attack was I didn't even know you could have a panic attack when did you have a panic attack?

28:34we were doing MIC and I was like 23, 24 and you know I speak about this in my book right? were you on set? no I was I was watching the voice um weirdly and then in the voice the guy basically said oh he had he had bronchitis so he couldn't perform and I just started feeling a bit like unwell suddenly I was a bit like oh god I don't feel very well either and look and I just started a tv show I social media was kicking off I'd probably hadn't dealt with lots of things that happened in childhood and teenage years and and also being like my makeup is way more sensitive i'm a sensitive person right like as a kid i liked hugs and i wanted to say i love you to my parents the whole time and i was scared they were going to get divorced and i used to watch land before time unbelievable littlefoot littlefoot and be terrified that dinosaurs were dead and be in heaven so then i became scared of death at five that's mental because the t-rex might be there yeah so i was obviously like oh i was a kid who was overthinking so i was naturally probably anxious right and then when i had a panic attack um for anyone who's experienced a panic attack you i mean you just basically feel like you're dying that's that's the be on the end of it you have no other reason you're dying and try and describe it well my one was i felt like i was fainting and i it was more than fainting you felt almost that you you were it felt like you were sort of going in and out of some sort of consciousness the whole time and your heart starts beating really fast your heart starts racing your then arms start tingling so you think well that's a sign of a heart attack and you can't catch breath and then it just propels and so i took myself to hospital with chelsea westminster and i was really embarrassed about it and so i sat there just like basically shaking your whole your whole body is full of adrenaline and i went up to the counter I said, I think I'm having a heart attack.

30:32And what they do is then they send you through quite quickly if they think you're having a heart attack, right? So I got put through and the doctor sat me there and he was probably not much older than me. And he said, you're having a panic attack. I said, what's that? And he said, well, you're in fight or flight and you need your adrenaline sign, you need to control it. Go and have a Coca-Cola, you'll be absolutely fine. So I was like, what? What do you mean? And he said, don't worry, you'll be absolutely fine. Anyway, I left, went across the road to the Tesco, got a Coca-Cola, drank it and nothing happened.

30:56I still just felt like I was dying. that lasted for about six hours which is uncommon for like a panic attack normally lasts like a couple minutes but this is it lasts six hours constant fear that i was dying then after six hours it's like a sudden drop in like adrenaline like suddenly and so when you go from sort of heightened like emotion like that to sudden drop the feeling is like falling off a cliff it's like i've never felt emptiness i just felt completely empty i remember going to bed that night i remember thinking well if I feel like this this will just be I don't know how I would control this ever and I woke up the next day and my honestly life had changed and I didn't tell anyone I basically lived in constant fear the whole time I remember I said to one of our castmates Hugo Taylor do you ever feel scared because I felt like I was living in fear and he said yeah when I watch a movie what do you mean I said well I feel scared all the time and I didn't know how to explain it and I didn't tell anyone for six months and then when I was in a shower at my flat that I shared with my brother.

31:53I finally said out loud for the first time, what's wrong with me? I broke down, phoned my mom and said, I think I'm broken. She then took me to a doctor. The doctor says you have a GAD, general anxiety disorder. I said, what's that? He said, well, your adrenaline's high, you're in fight or flight, you need to learn to calm it down. I said, how do I get rid of it? And he said, you can't. I went, what do you mean? And that was the worst words I could have heard. And for anyone who's experiencing something like that, anyone says you've got to learn to live with it. You're like, well, no, this is a curse forever.

32:22I don't want to live with this. You're kidding me. I want it to go now. Let it go, especially in a world of like instant everything. And it was actually the best piece of advice for the worst piece of advice, the worst piece of advice, because I didn't want to live with it. Because I was this outgoing, confident person, it completely changed me at the time. But the best piece of advice, because as soon as you accept, as soon as you accept your makeup, that you're shy or insecure, or that you have anxiety, you have depression, we have insomnia, the moment that you try and not sleep at night, I try and go to sleep at night when you can't sleep is the moment you can't fall asleep.

32:51The moment you don't stop thinking about it is the moment you'll fall asleep. Same with anxiety. The moment you start fighting anxiety, it's the worse it gets. And so for me, for the next year, few years, I just fought it and never told anyone. I drank to help it, suppress it. I dated lots of people to suppress it. I just... This is when we knew each other. Yeah, I didn't tell anyone. And then... Just so you know, like, I knew nothing about this. yeah yeah no one knew no one knew i didn't tell anyone i didn't tell anyone pug until i didn't tell anyone and if i look back at scenes i can see because i always think that the um eyes portray what the souls feel the body portrays what the soul feels and you could see in my eyes my eyes are so hollow and i can see in scenes when it's really bad and especially in my younger days of shooting m.i.c and you know and this is why toby our friend toby and one of my greatest friends came on the run with me um was because when I was 27 years old or 26 27 I must have been 26 27 um I finally built up the courage to tell someone and I phoned up Toby and I I got very upset on the phone to him and he said what's wrong what's wrong what's wrong and I couldn't get my words out I think he thought I was dying and I said I'm something's wrong with me I don't know what's wrong with me but I'm not very happy I don't know what it is and he paused and said don't worry we'll go through it together and it was this amazing echo back and it made me realize like why why didn't I just talk about this before?

34:16Why didn't I just hold someone before? Why didn't I just like spoken about it? But it was crippling. So is that what is meant by people should talk about it? Because to somebody that doesn't understand it like me, or at least hasn't experienced it, when I hear, oh, we just all need to talk about it. I struggle to understand how when that's not met with an action, how that is helpful. So this is really helping me. understand what is meant by that. Okay, so when you're building something at home for Gigi, right? Or you're trying to fix a cot. Or, I don't know, do whatever. And you don't know how to do it.

34:59You phone someone up, right? To ask them. Your mom, your dad, your friend, whoever, your brother, whoever it is. You phone them up and you say, by the way, how do I help fixing this? And they go, well, you use this. You use this screw and you have that. It's exactly the same. Or when you're going through a tough time, you have an argument with Vogue, right? and when you phone up your mate, phone up me, whoever it is, and you speak to me, you go, by the way, I just had this really shit argument and it really sucked. And you get advice and you talk about it. It makes you feel better. It's exactly the same with anxiety.

35:25Exactly the same. And the problem is, is that it's not shameful to ask for help when you're building a cot. It's not shameful to ask when you've had an argument because there's a reason for it. I can't build the cot. You can see it's visual, right? So you go, of course, I can help you with the cot. Same with an argument. I've had an argument. Oh, and you go, well, of course I can talk about that because everyone can see it, feel it, they know what it's like. When you talk about anxiety or something's internal, this is why no one spoke about it and why I never spoke about it. I can't show it to you.

35:51I go, well, I feel anxious. And you go, well, tell me what it feels like. I go, well, I feel scared. Can I get on with it? What do you mean? Is this the point of your book? So I think, right. So first, I think resilience is a really important thing. And I think like being resilient, 100 % you've got to be resilient. And grit is like what we like gets you through a lot of things, whether that's like relationships or business or a lot of something. We've got to have that. But I also think that we don't speak about a lot of things. And so my book, Boys Don't Cry, is an A to Z of everything that we don't talk about, right?

36:22And each chapter is titled with different things. So A starts with anxiety and my journey with anxiety. B is for best friends. C is for checking in. L is for loneliness. All these things that I think we experience, but we never talk about because they're too personal to talk about. It's funny, you know, like I, when COVID had finished, right? I remember I went round to a friend's house, right? Our great friend Robbo, right? I went round to his house and it was all of a few guys, we all sat on the floor and we were all having beers and we were all chatting. It was the first time we could all be back together.

36:52And we were sitting on the floor and we were chatting. And I just turned to like our buddies, I don't know why, and I said, do you guys ever feel like lonely? And like one by one, every single person said, yeah, I feel lonely. I've had this moments, I feel lonely. Oh, like this and that. And we never have those discussions, ever. We don't do it. Yesterday, I was at a Candy Kitten Away Day, right? And for my business up in Scotland. And I stood up at the end of the meal and said, right, I want everyone to say one thing that they is a pivotal moment, that they core memory in Candy Kittens. And I also want everyone to say something that they've overcome this year.

37:29It can be personal or in business. And everyone stood up and said the core memory. And then they said something they overcome. And the stories they were saying were like so personal, so amazing. And you feel more connected. And I think the problem is that we've become totally disconnected because we're not talking about the things that we should be talking about. I think the book, what I wanted to do is to talk about all the things that I've never really spoken about. And there's a lot of personal things in it, but also ways that I've overcome it and tools that I've used to get past the things because I think it's really important.

37:58And look, we know the statistics, right? The biggest killer for men under 45 is suicide. It is mad. It's crazy that that's happening. If you really think about it, it is totally and utterly mad we were just up in like i said aberdeen right and they have this amazing thing up there which is like a charity which is um for ex-military ex-military men and yesterday with my team when they were driving in the car the founder was driving in the car and he was sitting in the back with us got a call from someone who's an ex-vet who's saying he's going to take his own life and said i need help i found your thing on the website when we're sitting in the car.

38:38And the problem is that is happening because we're not really talking about things, because we're scared, nervous, anxious, upset about what people would perceive us as. But actually, so we're trying to be a perception of someone that we think we should be rather than being ourselves. And just, it doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter if you're scared of the dark, or you can climb Mount Everest. Great. But we all think that we have to be a certain version. And so I'm hoping that this book will change people's perceptions and allow us to talk about things in a normal way. Do you think that people generally are equipped to handle a conversation like that?

39:14I had a friend, you know him as well, I won't name him for obvious reasons because of what we're talking about, who called me and said something similar to what you said just then that the guy received in the car. And it was just, it was so shocking that I didn't really know what to do. I drove around to his house and I felt like I helped him. But I'm not a professional person who can save his life in that moment. Do you know what I mean? So I think he felt like he needed somebody that he loved to be with him. How does he get better? I don't know. Well, I think it's two ends of the spectrum, right?

39:55You can be super happy with life and everything's great, which is amazing. or you can be the other end, which we know how awful that is. And being at that other end, yeah, I think most importantly, if someone's listening to this and is feeling that way, you need to go and seek professional help, right? If that's what you should do, you should call a charity, or you should go to hospital, or you should speak to someone that can help you find someone, things like that 1 million percent. So my thing, which I think is what we're lacking is like, yes, there's the serious end down here, which need professional help.

40:28And I urge people to go and really seek that. But in that middle bit there, where people are feeling a bit funky, they're not feeling themselves, maybe they're burnt out, maybe they're not sleeping, maybe they're having a hard time in their relationship. I just think you need a mate, or just someone to chat to. And it's like going to the gym. Once you open and start talking, it will start to help you slowly. It won't have straight away, but it will slowly by slowly do that. 100%. What kind of mate? I used to have a lot of friends. And I now have less friends. On purpose. Not anything personal.

41:08I've made some changes to my life. Firstly, I mean that I have less time, but also I spend time with less people. You and I differ on this. You would agree more with Vogue. Vogue has a big friendship net right of her friends since she was a little kid like literally her best friends went to kindergarten with her and yeah but that's amazing they're best pals still right and they're always at the house and you know and uh i don't have that like i'm not friends with anyone that i went to school with even maybe like one or two people um as you know like we were very close and i still see us as being very close we just see less of each other like i have three kids a couple of businesses, you know, it's just life is not the same as it was before.

41:55Yeah, but then I would challenge you on that, right? Which is like, I think ultimately, like, I don't know, like, ultimately, like, there's a great quote in the movie Meet Joe Black, of all things, right? Belter. Yeah, where Antti Hopkins gets up, and he says, I feel happy in life, because I'm content. I wake up every single day and I realize I don't want any more and I think actually if you think about it what do we really want to achieve in life is just being content really like if I woke up and I was like I feel content I'd be like I've completed life wouldn't that be amazing do you never feel content yeah I do feel I feel really content a lot of the times which is really like a blissful thing to feel right so I think and also you know they did this incredible study which again I speak about in my book boys don't cry But they do this incredible study, which determines what happiness is, right?

42:53Like what really causes happiness? And they study something like 748 different people throughout their lives from all different walks of life. And it lasted nearly 100 years. And typically with a social experiment like that, funding runs out, people die, people get bored, whatever. It doesn't, but it lasts 100 years to really work out what makes people happy. And they study people every two years. They study their brains, their financial situation, their jobs, their close connections, their family, everything. And out of that 740 people, whatever it was, there was presidents, there was a president, there was an alcoholic, there were drug addicts, there were business leaders, there were athletes.

43:27Huge, diverse range of different people. And at the end of the life, what they realized that fundamentally makes people happy wasn't wealth and fame and all the things we think. It was the people who had better connections with family and friends. Those were the happiest people. But do you think that chasing happiness is the answer? is that the best thing that you can have yeah I mean you're not chasing happiness I think it's a byproduct of what you want I think that happiness is kind of like a motivation thing it's like you can't always be motivated you can always be disciplined right so like maybe I'm wrong but maybe I would you can't always be happy is my point sorry so like so it's kind of you can you can want to be happy all the time but that's unrealistic just generally speaking totally you can set yourself up with tons of tools that should make you happy like a great marriage lovely kids you know hopefully a nice successful career you're still going to have your days where you're not happy I think that's just standard yeah but if I was going to ask you what is the one thing one or a sentence that you want to achieve in life what would it be?

44:41I don't know it's interesting isn't it clarity on what? everything I'd like to have a clear clear understanding of everything so when I pray at night the first thing I always say is please keep myself, my friends and my family happy, healthy, safe and content it's the first thing I ask for am I in that group? of course you are but that's what I ask for so if the first thing if I was doing gratitude and the first thing I'm saying that's what I want then surely that's what I'm trying to achieve otherwise I'd go please make me the wealthiest person in the world or please make me the fastest person so for me that's what it is probably you love Disney we get Aladdin's lamp in here right?

45:26yeah he grants you three wishes you get three wishes actual genuine wishes from the genie what are the three wishes? what are Jamie Lang's three wishes? well I think the ultimate wish is contentment Right. So you're going to wish for something that you have a lot of the time anyway? Well, no, because I think if you wish to be really wealthy, great, you're going to have loads of wealth. I mean, it could be a good wish. I'm just saying, I know it's a material thing, but if you have three wishes, one of them could be to be a minted animal. That could be useful. Yes, I know, but I think... It could be useful.

46:06But the reason you want... Okay, but then it goes back to the same thing. it's like a if you want to be the richest person in the world or be super wealthy that's probably because you think it's going to deliver you contentment Correct? I think we're on a good point But do you know what I mean? Yeah, but if I I said three wishes, right? So I think if we had one wish it probably wouldn't be to be a billionaire or the richest person I think yours would be Richest person There's a lot you could do with that There's tons you could do with that Yeah, but But, yes. Tell me honestly, right, that if you have one wish with an actual genie, that you're going to ask for contentment over a billion quid.

46:46I swear to you on everything that if a genie came to me and I had one wish, yeah, I think I would say I would like me and my family to be happy and content. I truly believe that. Because it doesn't matter what wealth you have. It doesn't matter. Because the reason why you want to be wealthy is because you want to be content. You want to be able to afford all the things you want to afford. But if you are content anyway, that delivers all that stuff anyway. Well, you know, why do you think some of the happiest people in the world live in the blue zones and they've been shepherds and they live to 120?

47:18I'm sitting here, I'm sitting here from a really privileged position, right? I'm a guy living in the Western world with a roof over my head, having been brought up in a privileged household. I have like everything going for me. I am so lucky. So for me to sit here and go, I just wish I was content, It's like, of course you do, because you're so lucky. So I get, sitting from my position, it's hard to argue that, right? But I do believe in some ways that we have misjudged this idea of success. And that is led by sort of social media, in a way, that we have to have a crypto wallet and do an ice bath at five in the morning and be able to bench press 140 kilograms.

48:05and that makes you successful. And I'm not sure it does. No, no, but it's part of the journey. It's like... But your main goal is to have clarity. What is that? Well, I have a bit of clarity. So what is your... So here's a GD, here's a lamp. You're allowed one wish. You're allowed one wish. Yeah. What is your wish?

48:26You are asking one of... I'm very content, just in passing. I get it. Your wish, I already have, right? Fine, fine. No, no, no, you can't. You scrap everything. Because you've got it. You have one wish. A genie says to you, here's your wish. This is for your life. Here you go. Here's your life. Ahead of you. What do you want? Your one wish to be in this life you're about to go into. It's tough. It's tough. Well, what is it? Pick it. It's tough. You've got 30 seconds. I want everything I do to go well. It's the most selfish wish I've ever... Excuse me. It's very far from selfish. Can you not...

49:04Do you want me to explain why it's not selfish? You want everything that you do? I build companies to help people live better. No, you don't! Yes, I do. Clean Co, Untapped. This is to help people live better. What are you talking about? No! So if I do my job well, it'll affect... We're also, you don't have to... But also, we are all as humans. Have you read my LinkedIn profile? I agree with you. We're not... Everyone's a bit selfish. I totally agree with you. Jamie, if you're not selfish, you've lost. All right? Okay, everyone has to be a bit selfish. Okay, the... But your one wish... No, no, like, firstly, the power I would have, right, if that were real, like if everything I did went perfectly.

49:40I'd be building billion-dollar businesses all over the place, helping hundreds of millions of people. I'd fix hunger. Okay, let's answer the room. If one of us was going to be prime minister, right, let's answer the room. If one of us was going to be prime minister with one of our wishes each, who are you going to go for? My wish is a fantastic wish. If I... Your wish is just Midas. Yes, exactly. Great. Yes, I would like to be Midas. Imagine a better wish Like okay Every single thing That I set my mind to Works out I would like to solve But how boring is that Starvation in the world But how boring is that For you What are you talking about I would Like if I could If I could actually Start a business Right And solve world hunger Do you think I wouldn't do that But that's Look This wish would allow me to do that That's a philosophical Like What are you talking about That's my wish Okay but if you look at this Okay the reason why Okay the reason why You The reason why running a business in my opinion, is like really interesting.

50:35And doing ultramarathons is like really challenging and fun. It's because there's an element of failure that could happen. Otherwise, if we knew that it was going to always work out and be brilliant, and it was always, why the frick would you do it? No point. The point of life is that thing. It's true. The biggest satisfaction, this is so true. The biggest satisfaction in the world is when something you do is like really hard. and then you, when I did Strictly, right, the reason why it was actually so, and the reason I think people love it so much, I really do, is because it is so insanely hard trying to learn those dances every single week and performing, that when you actually do it, the sense of achievement that you get is unbelievable.

51:16The reason why there are so many people who are, and we have a lot of friends, who have wealthy parents who have given their kids a lot of money and they're not achieving anything in life is because they've just been giving it, given it. So they don't understand. I'm not saying I want to go back in time and be Midas. I'm saying I'd like to be Midas now. I've done the hard stuff. You have not done the hard stuff. Are you fucking kidding me? That's failure, mate. Are you? What is me like? My life is littered with failure and learnings. It is. Litter. It is. I'm a failure dump truck, right? And I've arrived here.

51:51I am. I'm littered with failures. Of course I am. But your wish, your very selfless wish. It's so selfless. It's the ultimate. It's not at all. Everything I touch, I want to turn to gold. That would be useless. That's useless. That's what you're basically saying. Well, I suppose you could sell the gold. So tell me how you find happiness. I think happiness is really hard to find now. And this is the reason, again, why I break the book. I think finding happiness... Okay, take social media, for example, right? I think social media, the biggest problem with social media is this, that we're meant to know 150 to 200 people, right?

52:30So we're meant to have this village mentality. We're meant to know. So if you had a wedding, typically, not you, but in this room, you'd invite like 100 to 200 people. That's who you would invite, whatever. That's who you'd know. The problem with social media now is that we wake up in the morning and the first thing most of us do is we go on our phone and we start scrolling and we're typically looking at other people who we're comparing ourselves to. Yeah, if you want to be happier, stop doing that. But the reason why it's hard to be happy is because we're constantly comparing ourselves. And so then our unique selling point is inadequate.

53:00The reason why the kids, right, who are the ones at Sports Day, so Theodore, Gigi, or Otto, right, when they run the 100 meters at Sports Day, the kids that are winning are the ones who aren't looking left and right, the ones who look straightforward, right? And it's because if you're constantly comparing yourself to other people the whole time, you're never winning. You're going to be unhappy because you're never, ever, ever going to be better than the next person. are you excited about being a dad? yeah I'm really excited about being a dad boy or girl? just joking exclusive I'm really excited because well I went from a place I didn't know if I wanted to be a dad because I was really scared of it and again I was like I kind of like my life and I like being able to wake up and going to the gym and going to the office and not really thinking about anything else just Sophie and whatever and so I didn't want to potentially have kids and then Sophie really wanted to have kids and obviously I love Sophie beyond anything so I was like okay well if that's going to happen I've got to get myself around to it and now that we're actually going to have a baby touch wood everything's going to be okay because it's scary out there I couldn't be more excited and more importantly it's like the complete love that it brings Sophie, that is just like the most amazing.

54:23It's like so wicked to see. Like that is so cool. And the two changing parts for me about having a kid was one when I spoke to my dad about it. And I spoke to my dad and I said, Dad, like kids, is that a good thing? And he said, well, if I had never had kids, I wouldn't be having this conversation. And I was like, that is so true. How amazing is that? so that was the first thing that started to change my opinion and I sat next to this girl well not to interrupt your flow but he's not going to tell you that it's a shit idea to have kids well he might do, he might say it's the toughest lots of parents probably would say it's shit, it's crap oh my god it's a nightmare, all these different things my dad, and it is that but he made it just like it's more like thoughtful things my dad and I wouldn't we wouldn't have the experiences we had like that's so cool and then another person said to me I sat at dinner and I said oh we're thinking about having kids and she said and I said do you have kids and she said yeah I've got one I said how is it and she said it's shit and I was like really it's shit she said yeah it's really shit and I was like okay well that doesn't fill me with great things just to be clear she just said it's shit that's what she said she said it's shit and I went what do you mean it's shit and she's like it's just shit it's like my daughter's four now and it's a nightmare and all these different things but she said for me for me personally in life she said I wanted to experience every corner of the world.

55:49And I believe, she said from a personal view, in order to do that in my life, I sort of had to have kids in order to experience that corner. And I sort of thought, oh, that's quite an interesting thing. But I caveat it with, we're so lucky to be able to conceive. Like so many people I know struggle with it. Like some people can't. We've got friends. I know very close people who have had really tough times during like awful times recently. And so I feel very lucky in that space to be able to do it. But it's an amazing thing and I can't wait. I think you'll love it. Ordinarily, as the last question, I'd ask my guest, are you laughing?

56:25Yes. Are you laughing? No, I just continue. I find it funny. When you get serious, I find it funny. Sorry, you can continue though. You know what? When we were doing your show, I found you to be so serious that I genuinely thought that you had some horrific thing to ask me or something. I was looking at you thinking, this feels very Made in Chelsea series three. Really? I was literally sat there thinking like, what is he up to? Because this is for the first time today, in our lives, in the 20 years that we've known each other, we've had two very serious conversations for a total of four hours.

57:00Amazing. We've never had 20 minutes of serious conversation ever before. Lots of mates don't do that. Yeah. We've never done that. Okay, ask me the last question. Okay, so we'll leave it with a question I ask all our guests. What advice can you give me and the Untap listeners about how we can untap our full potential or more of our potential. I'm going to steal Rory Sutherland. So you know Rory Sutherland? Yeah. You should get him in the podcast. Marketing G. He said to me that you should never follow logic. And I say it the whole time now. Because he says, if you're flying a plane or parking a car, following logic is a good thing because it gets you back in a safe place, a place where everybody else is.

57:37But when you're setting up a business, doing something personal, whatever it is, never follow logic because it gets you back in the same place as everybody else. So in regards to untapping your potential in like career and business and everything like that, which I think is like where I could probably focus. I can't focus on like fitness and health and all that stuff. But in career and business, I think is don't follow logic. Follow your gut and naivety rather than copying what everyone else has been doing. And I think that will untap loads of really interesting things. But I could be wrong. I'm glad that you caveated with that.

58:10Just in case everyone quickly rushes to not follow logic thank you for having me Ben cheers brother thanks so much for listening we hope you enjoyed that episode and if you want to hear more incredible conversations with extraordinary people to help unlock the potential within all of us then please subscribe follow and review the show wherever you're listening or watching thanks again and we'll catch you next week right here on Untappd

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