The Truth About Peptides: From Ozempic To The Wolverine Stack

0:04Hello and welcome to Untapped, the extra mile with me, Spencer Matthews. And me, Oli Patrick. It'll never get old. I just, I do, I love you. I do, I love you. I just think you're great. It's a mutual love. Thank you. This week, we're going to be discussing peptides. You've heard about them, I'm sure. or most people have. They're kind of everywhere but nowhere. They kind of fly under the radar, yet they're very present across the board. What are they? And let's discuss them. That's actually a brilliant description. They're sort of everywhere and nowhere because they're in every conversation to do with health, but no one really knows what the hell they are.

0:48And those involved in health and medicine have no idea if they work. And we've got to separate, peptides, peptides. what on earth are we talking about? We're talking about short chain amino acids. And already people are like, what? What's that? But of course, protein is made up of these building blocks, amino acids, and protein is longer chains of amino acids. Peptides are shorter chains of amino acids. So where there might be two to 50 amino acids bound together, that would be called a peptide. If it gets much longer than that becomes a really complicated structure, that'd be called a protein.

1:24All of that is relatively uninteresting unless you're in sort of molecular biology, but it's confusing, right? Because a peptide can be a hormone. So insulin is a peptide. Isn't that exciting? It is. I'm already enthralled but lost, you know, because, you know, just for the record, I'm not a chemist, nor am I, you know, I can't really remember. I don't really remember school. This is a separate thing, right? But if you were to ask me anything that I learned at school, I might struggle to answer that question, to be honest. You know, I always say I live in the moment. It almost is like anything that happened before this moment is gone, right?

2:08So talk to me as if you were talking to like a really young child or like a dog or something, right? I don't understand any of this. So I know that protein is good. And you're saying that if the chain is slightly shorter, you're in peptide territory. And that is it. But why would some people then consider, and I think this is quite a few people, lots of people would just hear the word peptides and go, dangerous. Yeah. And protein, though, load up on it. Totally normal. And because it's such a confusing topic, because peptide is too big a term. So when someone says I'm talking about peptides, which peptide are you talking about and why?

2:51The one that lots of people will be hearing about will be GLP-1, glucagon-like peptide, something your gut produces naturally. It's called an incretin hormone. That's like a Zempic. Zempic. Well, I want to come back to that because that's probably the most publicly explained. But that's a peptide. And there'll be another peptide that does a sort of a strange role in the body that we don't yet fully understand. What we've got is the peptides most people are talking about are these potentially off-licensed therapeutic peptides that the well-being and longevity community have started jacking up on, injecting, and injecting for good reason.

3:24They don't necessarily make it through the old tummy acid. so people are injecting these peptides on the basis they believe they're going to get some kind of passive significant health benefit which as we sit here now pal is massively unproven the rise of the glucagon like one peptide so a zempic was the sort of first consumer vehicle of that which is actually the peptides called semaglutide what we have there is an entire reinvigoration of the weight loss industry maybe a global salvation of the obesity crisis so that's over there then we've got things that in our world will be talked about like bpc 157 uh body why do they call it that just out of interest i don't know who names compounds it's like but just you know some sound cool like bpc 157 like what body protection compound 157 i think if you find it something call it like like ralph or something it would ralph might have discovered it's like a star i think if you find it you could you name it yeah but like who called it that i know like i can't even remember what it's called.

4:23They've all got ridiculous names. They've all got ridiculous names. But some of them, like, for example, like Munjaro sounds cool, right? Like when I first heard of Munjaro, my neighbor was on it, right? And like a Zen pick was all the rave, right? And everyone was taking a Zen pick. Well, everyone who wanted to lose weight that I knew was taking a Zen pick. And I bumped into a friend of mine who's a neighbor and he'd lost a bunch of weight. and I, you know, I knew it wasn't Pilates.

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7:12I don't make the names. It's like some Latin. Who called it that? Honestly, that's a good question. Terzapatide, Christ. So in the same way, semiglutide was what was the drug, but they're like, someone in Norse Novus, which is the company that identified that this could be an incredible drug for both managing type 2 diabetes and obesity. They basically went, well, we're not going to sell semiglutide. So they said, we'll call it Ozempic. And then actually they realized they needed a new brand as a weight loss drug. So they repurposed Ozempic to Wagovi. These are brand names. So these are owned by individual pharmaceutical companies to take their proprietary understanding and sell it as a consumer item.

7:51That's it. Now, coming back to that. I haven't heard of Wagovi. Wagovi. That's all right as well, to be honest. So Ozempic made the price, but Ozempic isn't for weight loss. Ozempic is for people managing type 2 diabetes. And they basically needed to segregate their products. What's interesting here is we made a man-made solution to a human biological process. So if you and I nail down some of the foods we do eat, which will be rich in protein and fiber, then our body will naturally produce, again, something in my gut called glucagon-like peptide 1. That's what it will make. and the only problem with that is it has an amazing impact on making me feel full and telling my brain I've just eaten but some people don't make enough of it or they don't eat foods that trigger it enough so these drug companies made a version of that peptide that would fundamentally stay in my system for a week rather than for a couple of hours so I stay full for a week it's very clever I mean that's why I think they're the wealthiest company in Europe I'm not surprised I mean it sounds tremendously intelligent and it's like you know given their flowers because they're going to change they're going to change the way that I can access the NHS over the next 50 years.

8:49What we're seeing is the mechanism of these peptides is often brilliant, but we haven't got the human trials of people, thousands of people taking them for 10 years and seeing what the repercussions are. We know that losing the weight is potentially good. What we're seeing, just again, sticking on that particular peptide, is people are losing a significant amount of muscle tissue, and losing weight is not the same as losing fat. Okay, so I've been really keen to chat to you about that point in particular. Is that because when you take an Ozempec or a Monjaro or a Retatrutide, which I believe is the third generation, is that because your cravings and your desire to eat food is curbed, right?

9:36So it is easier, essentially, to eat less. Therefore, some people who are looking to lose weight or some people who aren't paying attention to the calorie deficit will do it in an unhealthy way. In the case of, like, if you were able to take, say, Manjaro, which is, you know, buy it from Harley Street, whatever, legal, right? So you want to lose some weight. You want to be prescribed Manjaro. you go, you make your case, and a doctor prescribes you with Manjaro. You take the Manjaro once a week, and then you fail to meet the necessary kind of calorific intake or protein intake or carb intake that leads to a healthy life.

10:24You will essentially be malnourished. Is that the case? That's not only true, it's being evidenced. So it's not the drug that is causing the issue. It's the human taking the drug, not understanding the nutritional requirement to remain healthy. Spot on. And that paragraph should be put onto the packet to say, the drug only works if you double your nourishment, your nutritional density. So if I go from eating 3 ,000 calories of ultra-processed food, in there is fortified foods with some iron. There'll be some proteins in there. There'll be some fats in there. There's a lot of junk in there, but there's also lots of vitamins, minerals, and nutrients.

11:06Then I go to eating 1 ,500, just being facetious. I halve my calories. I halve all those vitamins and minerals. I halve my protein intake. So if you're going to a much-reduced total volume of food, you must double the nutritional quality. So you can't go from eating, not that people do, from three McDonald's a day to one. people are sort of going to get scurvy and rickets and diseases of malnourishment that we thought were long in the wind. You add to that again, that role of protein and the critical need to keep muscle mass. And if you suddenly put me in a massive calorie deficit, of course, my body is going to lose a bit of everything, but it's going to lose a significant amount of muscle tissue because it has to.

11:43Yeah. I have seen cases of people who want to lose weight. So they get on Manjaro or Retta or whatever the latest thing is. And they literally stop eating, right? They'll have like one small meal a day. And initially they're delighted, right? Because they drop, you know, 5, 10, 15 kilos of body weight quite quickly. Because of course you're in a savage calorie deficit. And, you know, your body, if your brain is not telling you, God, I'm starving, it feels easy. So it's doing the discipline for you. It's doing the kind of hard work of controlling the calorie deficit, which, as we all know, is quite a difficult thing to do.

12:24Massive. You know, like not having that piece of chocolate or that snack when you're absolutely ravenous is hard, right? Like humans find that hard, full stop. I think that is the danger, like not understanding what your body needs. and by the way i think were you to be training for any kind of performance i can't imagine that any of these things are that helpful because unless like i'm trying to ascertain basically whether because i like the idea of all this stuff like i hear about retta on podcasts i have friends that take retta right and they're just like it's dynamite so like everything about it is fantastic i feel fantastic i sleep well like like i've lost weight i haven't lost any muscle i'm a beast you You know, I feel like Wolverine.

13:11It's all kinds of stuff that I hear about Retta, for example. I'm sure it's probably similar for Mangiaro and the others, but you know, Retta is the new shiny toy in peptides. And it's kind of, you can't help but think, well, that sounds fun. You know, I'm into that, right? But if you're able to control your calories anyway, and you're pushing yourself to train hard anyway, and you're eating your protein, and you don't snack much, and you do have good discipline, is it healthy to take this or is it literally just a kind of mental curvature of the desire to eat more if i need a significant volume of carb loading for my glycogen stores and i need a significant volume of protein and i've got to get it's gonna be difficult to ratify a high training volume with that caloric restriction and that lack of desire to eat so these are unknowns right because these drugs weren't built for that audience.

14:05They're being repurposed. So Reta Trutide, which is not on license in the UK yet. It's being made by Eli Lilly. It should be coming here fairly soon. And people call it GLP-3. It's not technically true, but it's three mechanisms of action. Is it better than the other? Obviously, I have no idea how pharmaceutical companies operate or work, but you're taking the Zempick. is Manjaro essentially better and safer than a Zenpeg? And is Retta essentially better and safer than Manjaro? Well, safer is more about how many people have taken it for how long. Clearly, they have to pass their tests to get drugs through the human trials and out into the mainstream.

14:47Semiglutide, first drug, might have lost you 20-25 % of your weight in a year. Then they said, well, we can add to the semiglutide. So the GLP-1 will add something else called GIP. So it had two mechanisms of suppressing appetite and controlling glucose. And so Manjaro was the brand for the second iteration that was a bit more effective. Maybe that's 25, I can't remember the figures, 25 or 30 % of your weight. So more effective, but less people have tried it. Retotrutide coming out is three mechanisms of action. So it's got the original GLP-1, it's got another one, GIP, and then it's got glucagon, which is a hormone that helps.

15:20This is all about stabilizing the glucose in your bloodstream, telling your stomach and digestive system to slow food transit and to communicate directly to your brain and say you don't want food which often people call food noise but your gut and your brain are talking to each other all the time and so often that signal gets confused so retic should be theoretically more effective at weight loss because it's three different mechanisms of action but from a data point of view the more trial the drug the more confidence we have that there isn't going to be some spurious side effect we're not sure of yet so let's move off the peptides which are focused on weight loss yeah right because i think we've we understand that for a certain kind of larger person looking to lose weight they're effective perhaps for performance athletes not so much what about things like the that you hear about in the gym a lot like something like a wolverine stack which that sounds cool okay like like that's the brand take take your take your trapezoides and shove them up your bum, right?

16:19We've got the Wolverine stack coming in. And that, that like, nobody, right, doesn't want to be Wolverine, right? Because he's sick and like, he's full of adamantium and his body repairs itself. And he's in many ways, one of the coolest superheroes in the world, right? It's like, call it Superman, probably the most efficient superhero, if you're looking at superheroes generally. Early detection can change everything, but early-stage colon cancer often shows no symptoms at all. That's why screening matters, aunque te sientas bien. If you are 45 or older and at average risk, it's time to screen for colon cancer.

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18:50Like if I had to fight any superhero He'd be my least favourite to fight Superman Just because he could do everything Superman vs. Batman Stupidest film ever I won't watch it Really pissed me off It'll be over in a second Like what? Billionaire human vs. alien Okay, I'll go with the alien Who can slice your head off with his eyes Like, do you know what I mean? What an absolute load of shit Zack Snyder should be really ashamed of himself. I've never watched it. Well, I don't blame you. Anyway, moving back to it. Wolverine, high-end legend. And I think it's called a Wolverine stack because essentially your body repairs itself really quickly.

19:24So say you go into the gym and you shred yourself in the gym. You lift really heavy weights. Your muscle tissue breaks down and tears as it's supposed to. And ordinarily that might take two days to come back. And then you go again. or you go for really, really heavy, hard, like fast runs and your body just feels a bit banged up for a day or two. So you need to do slow recovery runs just to, you know, get the blood pumping and loosen up again. Like Wolverine stack, none of that. It does it in rats. It does what? In rats? If you're a rat, you know, I can train you like a bastard. I can give you bodyweight squats and that rat is going to be back in the gym tomorrow.

20:04that gym that rat is going to be hench let me say oh my god so what so we are we are in the we're in the reeds this is the classic sort of peptide that there's just not human data on this so this is driven by anecdotal and by animal studies right so bpc so wolverine is a i think it's it's a colloquial terminology to break two peptides together bpc 157 which we mentioned at the beginning. Body Protection Compound 157 needs a rebrand. It got a rebrand. So that's like semiglutide got called Wigovi, BPC-157, and another peptide, TB500. Okay, so TB500 is mimicking a peptide produced by the thymus involved in the immune regulation.

20:46What you've got is, in rat studies, it's done some incredible things. In animal studies, incredible things. And anecdotally, people are on there going, I'm telling you now, I'm ripping and tearing muscle, sinew and bone and the next day i'm feeling refreshed and go and people generally that's that sounds like it would be very helpful to a performance athlete passively and i think it's just moving on to the you might be able to tell me something it's moving on to the prohibited list these things are going to be difficult to check because you know what's the baseline level in a in a human being how long does it stay in the system yada yada yada principle being unknowns it's basically something your body bpc157 something your gut naturally produces that can increase the it does loads of things but it drives blood vessels what's called angiogenesis so it basically most things heal when there's more oxygen that's why hyperbaric oxygen therapies use they you get more oxygen to tissue you get quicker healing this is a way of creating more blood supply to your body and that would help with healing and then this other element might help also with both blood supply and the immune response to heal you quicker maybe maybe maybe maybe this easily sounds the best one obviously it is on the prohibited list by the way it is on the perimeter list okay what does that mean that you can't have it from a performance point of view so wider found a way to test for it okay so hang on a sec so so hang on god there's a lot to talk about isn't there hang on a sec so the first ones we were talking about so the the the uh azempec manjaro retta yeah are not on the perimeter list so what you can take those and be a clean athlete actually from a wider point of view i don't know it'd be great to check that they are they are licensed as either medication for the management of metabolic disease type 2 diabetes or the management of obesity um whether they would be prohibited from an athlete point of view would be a wider would need to have proven some kind of performance benefits i suppose i suppose if anything it's gonna hinder your performance and i can't think unless it's cutting weight for boxing or something or something or jockeys performance and health and well-being are separate animals.

22:44Something might be a health benefit, but performance hindrance and vice versa. Lots of things we do for performance are not good for health. So I think in that world, BPC-157 has then been shown to have a performance advantage, which makes it more compelling, but you're not going to get prescribed it by a physician. They're not going to check and balance whether it does anything secondary or concerning. So Wolverine stacks are going to be, again, bought from research pharmacists, people mixing them up at home. They're an unregulated practice with unknown unknowns. If there was someone who was just continually getting injured and suffering soft tissue injuries and that was prohibiting them and they were prepared to take that risk, that's probably the decision they're making.

23:23For someone to advise anyone onto those compounds without knowing what the repercussions of them are, I think would be potentially poor practice. I'm only kind of joking around about wanting the Wolverine stack. I don't feel like I really need it. You know, I'm not. You recover ridiculously. Well, I'm not injury prone, firstly. so I kind of feel fine. Your training volley. But it's mostly the name. That's good branding. Genuinely, that is... I'm in. Yeah, like you see that and you go, well, yeah, of course I want that. Yeah. Like the Superman stack. All right, yeah, great. But the thing is, these are mimicking natural biological...

23:57They should just call them... If they want to sell shitloads of this stuff, they should just call them after superheroes. They should. But they are inferring greater benefit than we understand. And there is one now for tanning. There is one that's trying to block... Melanin. Yeah. My friend used to take that. He looked so odd. He looked like a Louis Vuitton handbag. He'd literally, he would, he would literally, he'd inject this stuff. Mad ego, this bloke, really, really into himself. He would, he would, he would inject this stuff and then like be in the sun for 20 minutes and he would, he would literally come out looking like a wardrobe.

24:29Just deep on. Like a, like a deep oak. And like, it was, it was odd actually. So far, have there been any conversations around negative side effects with these drugs? Lots. I mean, there is the obvious side effect. These are hormones produced by the gut. So lots of people get the sort of gastrointestinal stuff. That is the reality. The reason peptides are injected historically. So if people take insulin, they inject it. People want to take any peptide because peptides are bound together as amino acids, same as protein, and our body breaks amino acids down that's what the digestive system does so this the acidity and and pepsin in your stomach is going to break that chain of amino acids down into their little parts they can be absorbed and then rebuilt as as proteins or whatever it is elsewhere in the body so we're injecting these that's sort of a crucial part of it so there's the risk of injection there's the gastrointestinal bit that you might get a bit tummy the the side effects are you know probably hard to distinguish between what's behavioral and what is the drug.

25:32So if someone loses 20 kilograms of muscle mass and as a byproduct of that then gets decreased bone mass and develops thin bones, osteopenia, is that a side effect or is that a repercussion? Yeah, well, I mean, it can't be a side of, well, listen, again, I'm no scientist, but it's unlikely to be a side effect of the drug itself. It's that you're not eating protein. Exactly right. So, you know, in my opinion, they only work if lifestyle matches the requirements that they create. That's the only way this happens. The drugs will work to lose weight, but you won't become healthier unless the behavior matches the requirement of the drug.

26:12I have a friend who is on Retta and he's an addict. Yep. And he says that he has absolutely zero desire to drink or take drugs. Zero. That's fascinating. And I've obviously, I've read about peptides, obviously, and firstly in the lead up to this episode, but also have had just a general interest in them because I have lots of friends that take them. And, you know, a lot of my friends that take them are not people looking to lose weight. They're kind of, they're athletes who are looking to gain an edge, right? Or like drop a bit of weight to run a faster marathon or whatever. And, you know, they're saying that they haven't lost much muscle mass, if any, because they're making an effort to eat lots of protein.

26:51And, you know, then you listen to podcasts about Retta, you know, Stephen Bartlett just did a thing all about Retta and the guy that was on it was saying, it's a trillion dollar drugs, it's going to change the face of the world, it's the greatest thing that humans have ever created. And then there's a bunch of billionaires sat around the table, I can't remember what that is, one of them is like a tech expert, and he's saying this is single-handedly the greatest thing that humans have ever made. So it's quite hard to ignore these things. It's happening. I think, first and foremost, if people are doing these things, we've got to put a public service announcement, do it under the care of a physician.

27:24But the unknown is the unknown, and that's like we haven't got tens of thousands of people who've banged in Retta for five years and seen their training performance, their emotional state, their behavioral psychology. So the great danger of peptides is people are sprinting before they should walk. And that is the danger. And we look in the UK, lots of people are on Retta, that's not unlicensed in the UK yet. So lots of people are buying these things from research pharmacies. So you won't get a doctor to prescribe you Retta-Trutide in the UK because they can't do that yet. They can prescribe Maljaro and they can prescribe as Mpik and Wagovi.

27:59But Reta's not available yet. So where are people getting it from? Where they're getting all these peptides from, which are pharmacies that would sell them to you on the basis that you spent to Matthews Arra Research Institute and you're running a clinical trial at your localized home environment. And they'll send you on yourself and others. You'll get a powder, you'll get a mixing, you'll draw it up and you'll be like drawing this thing up in your garage. Why does it have to be in my garage? I just feel that's where it should be. That's in the garage. Well, you know, we don't want the kids jacking up on the old ratter.

28:30Unless they go to the garage. But I think the principle being, it's become worrying. And there's a component called LPS, which we quite often see on peptides from research laboratories that aren't on those that have gone through a traditional pharmaceutical route. And that is what we call an endotoxin. And there are concerns that some people are going to poison themselves, put the wrong dosage in. in the pursuit of a marginal gain with no clear evidence to it other than some really good logic and i think a really good future picture but i just want to get people back in the box to say unless it's being prescribed and managed by a physician who's iterating it against your personal situation and your personal goals i think at this moment it's a massive misstep i really do look you can obviously see that that i um my natural inclination is to be excited about this stuff, right?

29:20I love shiny new toys and I'm, you know, really into health and wellness. And there's a lot of noise around this stuff. And to be honest, a lot of the people that I know who are taking it are reporting such, you know, great advantages to it. And I kind of trust them, they're serious athletes in some cases, but they are early adapters and always have been, right? So like they are wealthy people who take their health very seriously, who pay attention to, you know, US pharmaceutical podcasts and they've been across this stuff for ages, right? So always a risk with that, like who should be taking this stuff and what are the, you know, what's the deal with it generally?

30:03I think that early adopter, biohacking, longevity, wellness enthusiast, they create an awful lot of noise and I love them. You know, you're in that group and you are shiny and magnificent and I love it. We've got to bear These drugs were built for a population need. And the people who need these most are those who struggle with living with obesity, struggling with what we call metabolic disease. So, again, the prevalence of type 2 diabetes, of high blood pressure and real cardiovascular risk. And have been failed by a system where everything has told them they can eat the wrong foods and move in the wrong way and be surrounded by a difficult environment to lose weight.

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32:21Shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you. Those drugs are a potential revelation for them. And when these things meet the right level of legislation, they will enter that society in a way that I'm hopeful for. Through physician-led prescriptions, we're already seeing weight loss medications on the NHS to select groups of individuals. I think maybe 150, 200 ,000 people prescribed Wagovi on the NHS. So these are exciting things where people who've felt there was no way out of living with obesity, there genuinely is a way out. Will it be effective without some of the things that this other group are into?

33:01Resistance training, quality macros, quality nourishment. No, but that's a system problem that needs to be looked at over here. But that group, I'm so excited for them because it will provide hope where there's been very little. all the biohacker collective we just got to be cautious with that the shine and the sheen doesn't detract from the fact there are unknown unknowns and i'm excited too but i won't be you know i like to see lots of people do it for lots of time before i feel it's worth it when i'm not dysfunctional you know risk to reward you know when we look at you you don't like to take the risk let the risk play you know let's see what the real risk is which we're doing things that jar with the way we're designed right and and lots of these peptides are mimicking or overriding natural biological processes that probably calibrated themselves quite neatly over the hundreds of thousands of years that we've worked what we've got is an environment that's really hurting our body we don't need to go into our body and change the way it works we need to change the environment in which it operates and i would say there will be things here that i truly believe add value to the human experience performance and longevity but we don't know what they are yet and if you want to be an early adopter of shiny, glittery things, then do it by all means, but don't encourage others to do it who you do not understand their current state of physiology, their likely risk to reward.

34:18I think it has to be individual decisions. And for me, if it's not governed by a physician, I wouldn't touch it. Thank you, Ollie. I think we could do another episode on peptides. I find that really fascinating because we're out of time for this particular episode, but we haven't gone into peptides that help hair regenerative growth and, you know, nails and skin and things that are more aesthetic than others. And I think, you know, by the sounds of things, there's pretty much a peptide for everything. So there's probably another conversation that we could have, I think, on peptides. I think this is, you know, we dwelled a lot on the weight loss side of things today, but it's been really fascinating.

34:56I'm delighted to have learned more about it. It remains very interesting. And we hope that you learned something about peptides here today as well. Enjoy whatever you're doing and yeah, be safe kids, you know, chat to your doctor. If you've enjoyed this conversation and you'd like to hear more about peptides, perhaps there's some specific peptides that you'd like us to go into. Drop your questions in the comments and we will come back to you. And we would be happy to do a follow-up episode specific to your requirements.