Ulrika Jonsson EXCLUSIVE: Why Sobriety Is Life Saving & The Power Of New Habits

0:00Ulrika Jonsson has lived her life in the spotlight, a television icon and author, but more recently she made headlines earlier this year as she wrote a candid essay on her decision to give up alcohol after years of abuse. In this podcast exclusive, Ulrika opens up about her journey to sobriety, what led her there, and the hard truths that she discovered in the year since she's been sober. If you haven't already, then please take a moment to subscribe to the show wherever you are. Your support and joining our untapped community helps the show grow, and you'll be the first to hear about the incredible guests that we have lined up, and you can follow along with me as I begin training for my 7-7 world record attempts later this year.

0:40Now let's welcome Ulrika Johnson. I'd love to tell you kind of why we're here. I read your essay when the news came out that you had decided to be sober and that you were a year sober, what you wrote really resonated with me. I've had plenty of struggle with alcohol, you know, long periods of abstinence and a lot of learning. The first thing I did was send the article to my team here. And I just said, this is incredible. And I'd love to ask you how it came about. You wrote in your essay that you were hung over again, you used the word, and you were wrapped up in a blanket. And you said, you fired off a text message to one of your friends just saying, you know, I just can't do this anymore.

1:24What was different about that time? Well, that's the interesting question. I actually don't really know what was different about the 5th of June last year. I would always, whenever I had a hangover, which was becoming every day, force myself through and punish myself by doing physical things like out in the garden, working hard. There was no such thing as kind of resting and recuperating. I had to, it was almost like some sort of punishment. But after I'd done that, I sat down on the sofa and I don't know what it was. I mean, I knew there was a problem, but I didn't want to give up. I guess I didn't want to give up.

2:03And - The alcohol, you mean? I didn't want to give up the alcohol. I guess I knew deep inside that if I was going to give up, it wouldn't be a case of cutting down or giving up for a short period of time. There was an issue there that needed to be addressed and I didn't want to address it. and honestly when I look back at that day then there was something now of course I think believe it's my it was my higher power that sort of helped me along that sent helped me send that message to a friend who was already I think five years sober so I knew that she was familiar and I knew she knew that I had a problem too and I just said I can't do this anymore and I didn't I didn't think beyond that text.

2:45It was just, that was it. And then I literally just kind of hoped that something would happen. And did she help? Yeah, she basically said to me, why don't you hop on a support group meeting tonight? And I was horrified. Like, no. Like, I didn't say no, of course. But she said, there's one that, you know, starts at nine o 'clock. Well, I'm in bed by 8.30. So that would be my excuse and she said I'll find you an earlier one and I did I mean I actually did it's very shocking even to oneself isn't it that moment I had the same thing I reached out to somebody that I don't really know but a famous person right I won't name them because they may not wish to be named but you know my agent was managing a very famous person who was sober and she got me his number I called him and he said exactly the same thing you know you need to get yourself to a men's meeting today.

3:45And I just, same as you, I was just like, what's the rush? I'm not going to do it today. Like, you know, I've taken the step to say I'm going to sort myself out. You know, I don't have time to go to today. And he said, he said, you're making excuses. If you've got kids, get yourself a babysitter. If you've got a meeting, cancel the meeting, get to this meeting. You absolutely must attend the meeting. If you're serious about changing your life, you've got to get to this meeting. And I went to the meeting and it was the Kilburn's men's meeting and it was it was like I felt like I didn't really belong there.

4:16Did you walk in in purse? Did you go in person? Yeah I went in person but it was um you know people's different people's problems are are all I guess relative but I certainly felt like I was maybe fresher in in the in in the scale of what was going wrong with you know there were people there who were um i think you know high on drugs at the time and very suicidal and it was it was quite it was it was very eye-opening for me which i suppose was the point of the meeting and i i kind of i sat down next to this guy and he looks at me and he goes you look all right and i thought okay well thanks and i actually felt out of place because i was very i was deeply ashamed of my my drinking and my behavior which had completely got out of control but i but i was a a little bit kind of like, oh, wow, I'm sure I could maybe find a more appropriate meeting.

5:08And the guy at the end was like, listen, you probably can find a more appropriate meeting, but you know, you're not a million miles from this. And if you are concerned about what you're seeing here, you should be because you're, you know, a year away from this. If you carry on, you'll lose your wife, you'll lose your kids, you'll lose your job, your family will move away from you potentially. And, you know, you never know where you'll end up. And, you know, and it was just a bit of a kind of like, it was a real wake up call for me to kind of understand that, of course, they didn't all start there.

5:45You know, like that was a journey, like a particularly turbulent journey for them to get to there. And as I said, it's all relative. But how did it feel accepting that you have a problem in the first place, I suppose, because I think that's a very difficult thing for lots of people. And it's particularly hard to tell people, like it has to come from within, it came from within you. So you sent the message saying, you know, I can't, I can't do this anymore. And that was essentially asking for help. But, you know, whenever you try and do the right thing, even with a friend or even a family member and say, you know, I think that drinking might be a bit out of control.

6:23It's almost always met with extreme stubbornness and resentment almost for even asking the question. So how did that feel freeing to you? Nearly all of my drinking took place at home when I was on my own. So to that end, I felt like it really was nobody's business. And I didn't think about it affecting anyone else because I was, you know, I kept my house as impeccable, on top of everything, apart from not remembering a lot of things. But, you know, so for me, it was very much like, and then the whole justification thing of it's not every day. You know, again, looking around, you know, my house, which is beautiful and maintained, whatever else, there's not a problem here.

7:14but you know when I would when the drinking started earlier in the day and I found myself sort of kneeling into the cupboard under the stairs where I kept my rum and just necking the rum from the bottle I would say to myself and part of it was almost jokingly like look at you look at you that was the voice in my head look at you look what's become of you and the other one was, you know, there's a problem here. But that I would drink on that because there was a problem, then I'd have to drink on that to kill those feelings. And it was just to keep me, I just felt like I was quite a lovely drunk, you know, which you do, because that's how I, it made me feel.

7:58I mean, I was drinking for, I had, you know, very, very sort of punishing anxiety. And I had one personal issue that had been ongoing for years in my life that I've been trying to resolve and not being able to and it just refused to go away and it was going to result in some major changes in my life and I just couldn't see a way out and so this was my solution um yeah and it was drink became my friend when you were on your knees in the cupboard drinking the rum It sounds so attractive. I don't want to kind of keep saying that we have similar experiences, but I can absolutely relate to what you're saying.

8:45For me, that was because there were other people in the house. Were there people in the house for you? Oh, sometimes, yeah. I mean, now, you know, these are things that I would, because I only had or have my now 17-year-old son living at home. All the others had moved out. and so you know when I used to drink I guess what you would call normally you know my drink of rum and mixer would stand on the side in the kitchen but when the drinking increased I my my smartness increased as well and so I would just put the mixer in the glass and I just go neck nobody don't know if anybody knows this nobody and then I would go and just neck neat rum from the bottle so that if my son for any reason, this is awful and he may be hearing this for the first time if he listens to this podcast, if he for every reason was checking if I was drinking, he would drink the mixer glass and go, oh, there's no alcohol in that.

9:44And I'd feel like he wouldn't know that I was, you know. Rum as well. I know, you know, it's pretty hardcore.

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11:45I think that's the other thing is that, you know, people justify that their drinking is okay because they're just drinking rosé or they're just drinking this or whatever else but you know it it's the reasons why we drink really that's yeah we would have our bottles kind of downstairs and it's same as you when my drinking started to creep into the earlier hours of the day i would just trot down the stairs you know neck a double shot of whatever put it back come back upstairs like nothing's happened yeah i would use vodka because there's no smell no smell um and you know and if anybody did say have you had a drink today because it's kind of, you can sort of tell, I suppose, if you're attuned to it.

12:28I'd literally, you'd just lie. The go-to to me was to lie. Did you get defensive ever? Sometimes. Ordinarily, I'd just brush it off and just say, no, why would you think that? You're putting it back on there. Yeah, but you're gaslighting the person, essentially. And it's kind of, you know, I don't love that word because I think it's misused from time to time. But that is pretty, that kind of defines, you know, when you're getting caught for something and then you lie about it and make them feel odd for asking the question i think that's the literal definition of gaslighting it's just not a nice place to be for me it was the it was a shame the similarity with the staircase is uh we also have a cupboard upstairs and i would literally i'd open the door to the the drinks cabinet and like have a quick shot and then shut the door and even if there was somebody else in the house they'd be like what were you doing there and i was like oh nothing i'm just looking for something you know You know, just like thinking you're being smart when actually you've just taken a bottle out of the cabinet, had a clean shot of the bottle, you know.

13:26But I would have thought it's clear what you're doing, right? What are you looking for in the drinks cabinet? You know, you think you're being smart. I made sure there was lots of other very important things in that cupboard. So, you know, there generally was DIY keys, exactly, kitchen, you know, spare, whatever. You know, my teenage son, he wasn't interested in my every move, you know. He's busy gaming or whatever else. So it was perfect for me. But there were times as well where, I haven't even spoken about this before, where if there was somebody else in the house, i.e. somebody maybe working on something in the house or whatever else, and I couldn't go to that place where the drink was, I'd have to somehow smuggle the bottle into someone, because I knew one gulp wouldn't be enough.

14:15Then I'd have to put that somewhere else. And then, you know, just that mere, that action of doing that, it's not a subtle kind of action. It's not a small place. And I do remember a few, I think it was just a few months before I gave up drinking and my son came home from school. And he said to me, mum, are you going to be drinking tonight? And I got quite defensive because like, why the fuck are you, why are you, I didn't say that to him. about like when the fuck dare you impinge on my life like what what have I ever done and I was like oh well I might do I might not keep you or in suspense I'll let you know yeah you'll find out you'll soon find out yeah and that yeah so I think that's about the only other the only time and I think also I used to do the classic thing which I'm sure you did well I did yeah I did have a drink last night but it was only and then followed by a lie it was only three rums or whatever else and it wasn't three rums i didn't maybe start a bottle of rum and then you could you could see how much you'd had yeah so i'm sure it was only half a bottle i mean we'll move into more positive elements of the interview i suppose but i used to find it quite difficult when you would work your way through the whole bottle and then it's kind of not not in a single go but over the course of several days you know i'd work my way through the bottle and then all of a sudden and the bottle's empty.

15:38So it's like, what do you do with the bottle? Do you throw the bottle out, or do you keep the bottle? And I could, because it's like, people might know that the bottle was there. So, like, that became... Every detail about it. Because it's like, you know, I don't want to, you know, I don't know what people think about me, but I suspect that this will come as a shock to people listening to this, because I haven't really spoken about this level of detail either. But it's surprising, isn't it? Because on the surface, Like, for example, I had, not that I pay a huge amount of attention to you particularly, but I'm very aware of who you are.

16:13I had no idea about any of this because obviously you drank in private at home. Publicly, you look to me like you have a lovely life, you know, because I know nothing about you. So, you know, I just see the nice photos of you and, you know, and I suspect that's probably what people assume of my life, you know, Even when you're sat there with absolutely nothing on during the day and you feel like a complete failure and you're beating yourself up because you feel so ashamed of this awful behavior and you're drinking at 10 a.m. and you're on your own. Everyone else is at work. You've got no one to call, no one to go.

16:50Pubs aren't even open. And you're having your fourth cigarette of the day and it's just like I feel horrendous, like I'm not making the most of my life. I mean, for me, I think it was a mix of huge amounts of shame, but also it very much became my thing. It was my thing that I had away from all the horrible, nasty things that were going on in my life. And it was my thing that I could do. Nobody knew about it. Of course, everybody or people around me knew. and I mentioned in the piece you know I had my best friend phone me one Saturday morning and she said I need to speak to you because I spoke to you at four o 'clock yesterday afternoon and I couldn't understand a fucking word you said you have a problem and I can't help you and I was crying my eyes out because there was just like there was no way of avoiding it she says like this comes from a place of love but you need help I still didn't stop drinking then I had to drink on that conversation because that was so shaming.

17:58It was awful. You can go either way, that concept. Yeah, and she, because I knew that, I knew she was right, but I wasn't ready, clearly. But even after I had accepted that there was a problem and sought help and started on my sobriety journey, I had three people say to me, but you're not an alcoholic. so one actually one person was in the support group that I was attending and then I had actually even my lovely therapist and then a really close friend said but you're not and I said but you haven't seen me you haven't seen me yeah I hide it well yes and you see my house looking like that why would you think that I'm you know so yeah there's so many areas around that um horrible horrible time what help do you under undergo do you do you still speak to somebody or are you confident in in your own ability to remain sober or do you go to a group or how do you do yeah no i i rely on a support group um and i probably do about three meetings a week sometimes i go to one and then i do a couple online uh i try not to miss them i and then i'll sometimes do other ones if I miss one.

19:23I've been quite sort of literally religious about attending them because at the beginning, I felt like if I start to miss one or make excuses for not going to one, I'm going to slip. So I was holding on really tightly. I've got a little bit more confidence now in knowing if I miss that because we have a family event or something like that, it's not. But you know, Christmas Day, I attended a meeting, Easter Sunday, well, just to get away from people who were drunk and joking and laughing at things that weren't funny. So yeah, I do that. And yeah, I work a program that is teaching me. I mean, the irony of that was I thought, well, it would be enough to go to meetings, just attend, listen to everybody's stories, listen out for the similarities.

20:10That'd be fine. There's nothing anyone can teach me about myself that I don't you know, been done therapy on and off for 30 years. I'm, I know me, I don't need to do this. Turns out I was wrong. And it's really good to be wrong sometimes. So yeah, working, you know, a program and keeping and you may, we may get into that about what, you know, how life has changed. But yeah, that's really important to me. And for me now, sobriety is my priority, because even though I used to always say, oh, my children are my priority, I realise now that my sobriety is my priority because without my sobriety, I can't be there for my children or something awful might happen or whatever else.

20:54Who's your higher power in your recovery? So when you're at meetings, do you believe in God or do you put somebody else in that position? So I don't believe in God per se, but will often use the word God for my higher power. and what is my higher power? I think it's a mix of different things and it isn't, it's not something that I can see clearly but that I can feel very clearly. So I don't come from, you know, a religious family or anything like that. In fact, my mum was quite, quite against religion even though I was christened as a baby. But so religion hasn't really been part of, part of my life.

21:38So the idea of God has always been quite foreign to me. And so when I hear the word God, you know, you immediately sort of go like that until you understand that you have your God, you can create your God or your higher power can be whatever you want it to be. So I wouldn't be able to tell you specifically what it is, but it is very much there. And yeah, I connect with it as much as possible. Do you believe in the kind of Alcoholics Anonymous mantra that we are powerless over our actions. I know that you believe alcoholism to be a disease, an incurable disease where, you know, you can either stop drinking or it will remain a problem for the rest of your life.

22:22But do you truly believe that you are powerless or do you believe that you are making these decisions to better your life yourself? Even the idea that alcohol is a disease or an allergy. I guess in many respects, the proof is there, but it's been, it's also tricky to get your head around. But it actually, in many respects, doesn't matter if I, as long as I remember that for me that, well, I don't know, but like if having a glass of wine now is not something that I would ever, would I, that I'd want to risk because I could, it could just be one glass, but I can't guarantee to you that it wouldn't be.

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24:00pick a side. You can have them all. How will AI revolutionize your business? AWS AI is how. Hey guys, it's Drew from the comment section. Some days my skin just needs a little coverage and other days I want to go full glam. For those everyday moments like running errands or grabbing coffee, I've been loving the Merit Minimalist Stick because it's a foundation and concealer in one that gives me a really natural skin-like finish. But when I want more coverage, I'm reaching for the Hourglass Vanish Concealer every time. I know I'm not the only one who struggled to find the right foundation or concealer shade, which is why I always shop at Sephora.

24:39They have the best brands all in one place with so many shades, coverage options, and finishes, plus expert beauty advisors, free samples, and shade matching tools both online and in-store. So whether you're looking for barely there coverage or full glam, Sephora can help you find your match. I guess the idea behind that is that we're powerless over alcohol. You seem to me to be a really disciplined person. So the idea of you not being in control, I can imagine being very sort of not an idea that you would, that would sit well with you. You like to take responsibility or like to be proactive about your decisions.

25:20And I think a lot of the thinking behind what goes on in that particular program is the fact that it's our self-will that we've got to put aside, i.e. the things that we want to do that aren't always there to bloat and fill our egos sort of thing. So take away that self-will, take away that ego. So that aspect of things. But yeah, The way that I have interpreted it is that we are powerless over alcohol. But there's also a side of me that feels very much that, again, because I haven't had like decades of drinking and alcoholism, although alcoholism runs in my family or my mother's side, I haven't had a long history of it or whatever else.

26:14So for me, I'm very much a cold turkey kind of person anyway, whatever it might be, you know, whether it has to do with weight or going to the gym, those kind of decisions. Once I do it, I do it. But I guess for some people, and this is presumably why people relapse when they're drinking, is because they think like, well, I've been sober now for a couple of years, I'm sure. Which is why I really struggled around the anniversary of my sobriety, because everyone was like, oh, well done. And I was like, well, I'm not going to get a medal or a trophy and then say you're cured now you can go back out there this is the rest of my life yeah and so it felt like a mixed thing like I'd accepted this is the of course it's an achievement but equally it's it's a yeah it's an annoying achievement yeah it's also something that you're doing to for the betterment of your health you know it's kind of like you're not going to get all your friends clapping if you go for a run something and it's I think it's a similar, you're making a positive decision in your life to live a healthier, better life.

27:16But, you know, I see you as a very strong woman who realized and took accountability for certain actions, realized that there was a problem and, you know, is with discipline fixing the problem. And, you know, and it's going very well for you. Yeah. You know, I was always really surprised. I went to a meeting once and there was a guy who had been completely abstinent of drugs and alcohol for 22 years or something. He goes to meetings every couple of days and talks about the issue. And I was sat there thinking, but surely you're free of this now. And he was saying, absolutely not. And if I don't go to meetings, I'll do drugs and I'll drink.

27:58and I was like, you haven't drank or done drugs in 22 years. I was 24 at the time or something. I was like, for my entire life, you haven't touched a thing. And I couldn't understand then why that person couldn't break out of that and be the guy who hasn't touched drinking drugs for 20 years. Be free of that. And move into a whole new space. It just felt negative. I'm sure he maybe sees it differently. No, it's really interesting that you bring that up because that's, you know, there is an element of me that feels exactly like that. It's not that I feel, oh, that doesn't apply to me. I'm a better drunk than some of those other drunks.

28:45That's not how I see it. But for me, or rather for other people, I guess, there is a feeling of connection when they go to meetings and keeping that connection, keeping that spiritual connection even with those people or the fellow drunks and also knowing that fellow drunks understand them and whatever else. And yeah, there's a little bit of fear in that if you step away from that, you could end up. But then that's because, you know, I wouldn't be able to do the crazy shit that you've done, like running and getting fit. Like, I mean, when I run, I look like I'm running for help. So, you know, there's just no hope of anything like that.

29:23But for you, you know, you have decided to put your mind to something and you're going to do that. And everybody's mind functions differently. You know, I think that's why I found it so desperately weird to sort of think of myself as an alcoholic. because I just didn't feel like I was the sort of person who would lose control over an aspect of my life. You know, I've always, I've been the main breadwinner. You know, I've raised the kids sometimes together with followers and sometimes on my own and whatever else, but I've always kind of, you know, led the charge. It's always been that. So suddenly to be in this place and how I got there, I just couldn't quite kind of comprehend that.

30:18This is a particularly difficult question to ask because it's kind of an unknown. But do you believe that you will never drink again? I believe that I will never drink again. I have to believe that because I do not want to take the risk. Because I think there's every chance that I could have a glass of wine today. but then when the shit hits the fan again is that going to be my default setting that i go back to that i mean it's the at the moment the way that i feel now sort of just over a year on is the very thought of drinking rum or something because something has gone bad just makes me feel sick i don't want to but at the beginning you know when i'd go out for a sunday roast or whatever else and people are sitting there with the glasses of red, I'd be, oh, that would be so nice.

31:13That would be so nice. But yeah, it's just not. So my belief is that this is forever, but that has, you know, that has changed. I didn't, I couldn't think like that at the beginning. It was too, it was too much to take in. Like at the beginning, you're going 24 hours, 48 hours. I've done a week. I've done a month you know this is amazing and that's why I think coming up to a year was a bit disappointing because it's like oof this just goes on and bloody on this sobriety I can't imagine having a drink again but you know and I think if you're a realist and if you're really mindful of you know things that have happened before you have to say you know you can never say never and that's why I think I need to it's important to sort of stay on top of things and yeah i think there's a certain maturity that comes with it as well you know where you you really know yourself yeah well that's been my journey and you know you know the you know we'll just end up in the same place you know type thing so it's kind of you know that definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different different you know it's obviously not going to be different just um i mean that's definitely the big thing for me and again might be something that we'll talk about but yeah just the whole thing of what a massive change it's made for me as a person as a being at my mindset my approach has just completely changed and at nearly 58 I just didn't even think that that would be possible I thought I wasn't very good at life I wasn't cut out for it and I'd just be, I was just a pretty rubbish to, average to rubbish person.

32:59And then this whole world kind of opened up to me. Well, that's really beautiful. That's, um... That sounds so free. No, no, but it's really cool. It is. It's, if I may say, it's a massive part of why this show exists. You know, like the going from A to B and the differences, you know, in the kind of person here and here. Yeah, it is, you know, obviously, I hope to just have really exciting and interesting conversations with great people. You know, the show's not much more than that. But, you know, what it's supposed to be is a reminder that if you are stuck somewhere in life and you feel like you've just described, that you're not good enough, that, you know, you can't do certain things, that other people are all excelling around you and have beautiful lives that we're looking at on Instagram.

33:47You can make significant change to your life. for me, the massive change in my life was changing my relationship with alcohol. That is the single-handedly, the biggest shift in me that's ever taken place. You know, have a beautiful wife now, kids, obviously a lot of things are different in my life, but it's, but that was the, that turned me into an entrepreneur and it gave me drive and ambition and health and wellness, fitness, you know, and the ability to think, actually, I can probably, you know, do more exciting and interesting things and push the boundaries more and more, you know, until you look back at your former self and you don't even recognize it.

34:29Yeah. And I think when we started talking and you said, oh, no, you can only talk to like, you know, elite athletes or, you know, people who have really done amazing things. And I would always sort of look at people like that and go, they are other. They are like made of something completely, which they are in many respects. But I could never see myself as relating to any aspect of that. A very good friend of mine is a former Olympian and she's, you know, insane about athletics and whatever. Bores me. But, you know, she's very good. And apparently or was. And, you know, and her discipline is like insane.

35:12and she's a couple of years older than me and it's just, you know, and I'm like, oh, you know, let's have a drink and whatever. And she doesn't drink. She's very, very disciplined. And I just thought like, you're just made of different shit. Like I could never, and what's happening now for me and, you know, the joy of this being called untapped is like suddenly I'm tapping into something. I'm tapping into the person maybe that I always, that was there, that I didn't think existed. And also a new person, the person I never knew. I didn't, I thought I was shit. I thought I was, you know, my opinion of myself was never very high and not in a sort of, you know, more in a self-deprecating way, but not in a sort of pity party way.

36:04But just, you know, I'm like jack of all trades. I did like seven sports when I was living in Sweden with my dad and I was pretty below average at all of them. You know, whereas I'd have friends who are really fast runners or excellent at basketball or, you know, and my two best friends at school went to Oxford and Cambridge and, you know, so I was always, always felt, you know, below. And I don't feel that anymore. And that's quite, that's been, I mean, it's come pretty late in life. I mean, I didn't even think I'd get to this age, which I know is mad, but my dad died very suddenly when he was 53.

36:40So I just kind of pensions and all that. It's like, oh, don't worry about that. I'll be dead before then. And always say that to the kids and they go, mom, stop saying that. And I'm like, well, I'm definitely not going to be here. So I just kind of had this very negative view of myself, ironically, doing a job where everybody sort of, you know, claps their hands and says you're amazing. And and then that I'm not going to live very long. So, you know, and now suddenly finding a new desire to live and finding out new things about myself and what I'm capable of and my strengths and whatever. So, yeah.

37:16Isn't it extraordinary that, you know, it almost doesn't matter what stage in your life you're at for this, you know, incredible change to take place from within. You know, it's a really wonderful thing. You know, I was just thinking there of Davina McCall, for example. Yeah. and her complete transformation in kind of later life. And I have a friend who you almost certainly won't know, but his name is Tucker Hall. And he abused drugs and alcohol on a daily basis for his whole life, from when he was a surfing teenager in Hawaii all the way through to founding Volcom. It's a surfing, skateboardy, snowboardy brand.

37:55Huge, massive thing. Massive. It wasn't massive when he founded it, but it certainly was on its way. It was incredibly cool. He got paid out by them many, many tens of millions to step away from the brand, right? He took that money, went and just like abused drugs, abused alcohol, abused drugs, abused alcohol. And then one day, like, by the way, he was an incredibly, like, incredibly gifted, awesome music-playing, tattooed guy who's just like, his aura was just... You wanted to be around him. He's amazing. Like, even when he was high, and that's pretty rare, by the way, Most people who are drunk and hired, just nightmares.

38:31He was always just like super interesting, super entertaining, just like incredible person, him and his wife, both of them the same. And one day he just stopped, stopped, sold the house, moved to Idaho, built a big log cabin, hosted the AA meetings, been sober for many years now. We catch up semi-regularly, you know, just because we're very close. But, you know, he felt what you're talking about, you know, this later in life, you know, just complete total transformation. He would have felt that his life was very beautiful before. But actually, he now describes it as this kind of like inferno that he was in, you know, never sleeping properly, constantly high, chasing the next line, chasing the next drink, you know, in the comfort of his multi-million quid mansion.

39:18Yeah. But still trapped, you know, trapped as slave to it. And kind of running on empty as well. That's the thing is that you're kind of, I guess, burning up inside and you're burning up all the good energy as well and all the positive stuff because you're just sort of wasting yourself quite literally. I think for women as well, I mean, you know, I was just like menopausal coming into this stage of life where, you know, society likes to forget about you and you should go into old age gracefully and, you know, whatever else. I'm like, fuck that. That is not happening. Like, I still want to have a lot of sex and I want to have a lot of fun.

39:57The kids can wipe their own arses now, so I can be free to do my own thing. So there was this sort of thing of like, everybody's sort of expecting you to disappear from view. And suddenly this wonderful thing starts to happen to me. I mean, I thought, like I did sort of think I would be dead by now, not from the drinking, but just somehow, because my dad died young. I just had it in my head that I'd also have a brain hemorrhage really early. and I'd be gone. And so old age wasn't really something I needed to worry about. But here I am. And yeah, now sort of wanting to catch up on the years of negative thinking that I lost, of sort of negative being, negative view of myself or approach.

40:49I was also really fucking angry when I was drinking. I was angry about everything. I was angry about what was happening to me, what someone was trying to do in terms of what was going on in my life that I was trying to find a solution to. And then, like you say, you look at other people's lives and you're like, fuck you, you with your fucking perfect life and fuck you and this and fuck my life. And instead now, and I know I sound like an absolute wanker saying this, but I start the morning with a gratitude list and it changes the whole face of everything. That's really interesting. We had a guest talk about that before as well.

41:30So how do you do that? You physically write stuff down? Yeah, in fact, yeah. And I actually send it to a person who I know, not like a complete stranger. Just DM it to random. It's random on Instagram. Grateful for the painter. be turning up on time. It can be. I mean, sometimes you're like, but then you always find something and then you're like, and having done that, you're just like, you know what? Whereas before I might have started the day going, you know, oh my God, look at the bloody brush dropped on the floor and everything's fine. Instead now, look, I'm not irritatingly positive about everything and life hasn't stopped throwing me like curveballs and difficult things to deal with.

42:20But it's up to me. What I didn't realize was that I had the power to obviously change my attitude to whatever's happening or change how I treat the situation, how I behave in the situation. You've talked about something called emotional sobriety. So that's not just stopping drinking, but it's learning to live differently. Can you elaborate on it? I guess it goes back to the fact that I thought that I would be able to just give up drinking. And that goes back to what you were saying about having that self-will. And I think there's an element of that. I could definitely stop drinking. but would I be able to keep off that without learning about myself like cleansing myself emotionally and I think speaking as somebody who's had therapy on and off through periods of my life whatever since for 30 odd years or whatever I just thought there's nothing that I can learn about myself I'm very like aware I question everything I do I question my behavior all that stuff.

43:26There's nothing that I can learn from anything. But then, you know, attending support groups where emotional sobriety is kind of the order of the day and learning about why I'm doing things and that even I have an ego. I was like, no, not little on me. Like I just don't ever put myself first or I don't manipulate or whatever else. And it's like, oh yeah, maybe those things have happened. And I think that that in tandem with giving up the drink has been crucial for me, because if I just gave up the drink and then carried on the same way, because my behavior has changed so much. I've found, oh my God, here comes another wanky expression.

44:13But I've found this inner peace. I don't think it's wanky, by the way. Like, I think it's really important for people to understand that alcohol can be having a really negative effect on their life like that i used to be really careful with the way i would say that i used to say kind of alcohol's fine and everyone should have a moderate relationship with alcohol and you know as long as you're not abusing alcohol that's fine and all of that is true but i think people are aware now more so than ever that alcohol you know is toxic it is a problem it is the kind of origin of lots of crime, of lots of health issues.

44:49You know, the burden on the NHS is simply enormous, you know, because of alcohol. And, you know, we're really just talking about it from a personal level, not even on a macroeconomic level or a societal level. But it's kind of, it is interesting, I think, for people just to understand, you know, the difference that it can make to their life. And you finding inner peace, I think, is a wonderful example of, you know, why people should drink less. because I didn't sort of go public about giving up drinking till I turned sick my six months I didn't tell anyone only just sort of closed people and when I would tell them or whatever else whoever Elsa might have called me I'd never like force it down their throat or anything like that but they'd always go oh yeah maybe I should give up drinking and I was like no you probably don't need to give up drinking just because you hear it from me and you you know but it is everywhere.

45:41It's so... I see it more and more now. You know, every time you walk into the supermarket, it's everywhere. We're expected to drink. We're expected to drink to have a good time. That was my fear. I was like, I'm not going to be funny when I'm not drinking. Did you think it would have a negative effect on your sex life?

46:00Yeah, although I kind of knew that sex sober would be better. But of course, all your inhibitions go when you've had a drink. So sex becomes easier to sort of facilitate or bring about or participate in. But the enjoyment side of things is very different when you're sober. So that's been quite interesting too. I mean, yeah. Because you spoke about it having an impact at least on your approach to dating. Yeah. Oh, God. Yeah, because I would never have had a date without having one drink. Like, that's the lubricant, isn't it? That's the sort of social lubricant you just need to sort of ease yourself into a date.

46:49But obviously, if I was driving somewhere or whatever else, then I wouldn't drink more than that. But yeah, often, if that wasn't an issue, two or three drinks somewhere else, then you just become a little bit more available, I guess. I mean, it is easier. And maybe even, maybe it even feels hornier and sexier. I don't know. I mean, that's kind of, that is something that I still, because like if you could do a taste test today and go like, do a drink and then try this and then do it the same without having a drink. But then not having a drink and going on a date is like, it's hard. it's really hard because people are not as attractive I only thought you were about to say it's hard to open up people look worse I can really see you I'm not at all I can see you for who you really are and I don't like it so at the end of each episode we always ask our guests for an actionable tip on how to untap more of their own potential.

48:04I mean, in your particular case, what I'd love to hear is having made this very positive change in your life, you're over a year in, like, you know, we know what you have done. How does it feel to have made that change? And I suppose what tip would you give somebody who is thinking to make a change like that in their life? Well, first of all, it feels miraculous. It does feel like I sometimes walk around going, I don't know myself or I didn't know myself or whatever else. I guess the thing that I feel very much is that I never ever in a million years thought that I would be capable of making a big shift and a big change, not just dropping the alcohol, but mindset and approach to life.

48:49I was always the person who would sort of poo-poo all those people who tell you to manifest things and motivation and whatever else, I was like, no, I'm going to go and have a fag instead or something like that. Rather, don't smoke kids. But, you know, I genuinely believe this. And this is, if somebody like myself, and that's regardless of, you know, background or profession or anything like that, but just somebody who actually people don't, people out there don't know me and how maybe little I thought of myself or whatever else. But if somebody like me can make a shift and make a change and can also do it in the autumn of my life, then it really is possible.

49:41I know it's a jokey thing and applying it to myself, but you can teach old dogs new tricks. And I just would never have believed it. I thought I was set on a course for life and I think you get entrenched in that. So I know it's not a very catchy kind of guide to give to somebody. That's great. But if I can do it, I promise whoever, like however shit things are, I think it is possible. I don't want to say, oh, there's hope out there and everyone, you know, but if I'm capable, then you are too. Well, not you. But you. You're not capable. I'm a lost cause. Ulrika, thanks so much for joining us. That was a real pleasure and everything I hoped it might be.

50:27And thank you for taking the time out of your day to join us. Oh, thank you for having me. Thanks so much for listening. We hope you enjoyed that episode. And if you want to hear more incredible conversations with extraordinary people to help unlock the potential within all of us, then please subscribe, follow and review the show wherever you're listening or watching. Thanks again. and we'll catch you next week right here on Untappd.

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