LIVE from Goodwood: Can Williams convince Carlos Sainz to stay?

0:00Up to Speed is brought to you by American Express. There's always more with Amex. This is a global production. Make some noise, everyone. Yes, we do. Thank you. I like Alex because he digs deep. It's going to take a bit of rebuilding, isn't it, James? From the first signs of trouble, he was the first person I called. You heard it here first. If you had a driver being critical in the way that Max is, would you feel the need to have a word with him? Damon's asking you harder questions than I am.

0:46It's Naomi. Welcome to a very special episode of Up to Speed. I'm here at Goodwood for the annual Festival of Speed, an event that brings together the most passionate lovers of motorsport. Over 200 ,000 fans here in four days. Now stick around because in just a little bit I'll be on that stage with 1996 Formula One World Champion Damon Hill as well as Atlassian Williams F1 team principal James Viles. So I hope you enjoy the conversation. Well hello everybody, welcome to Up to Speed, live from Goodwood. Make some noise everyone.

1:21Well, welcome to our very first episode of Up to Speed with a live audience. So thank you guys so much for being here for this special occasion. We really hope that you're going to enjoy this chat that we're about to have. And without further ado, I would say let's get this show started. So it's Naomi. It's James. It's Damon. Woo! I've got some very special guests next to me, two who need no introduction, I can guess. But, Damon, this is a very special year for you. You're celebrating 30 years since your victory of the Formula One World Championship in 1996. We love you, Damon! Yes, we do. Thank you.

2:01Some noise from the audience there saying they loved it. Tenor is in the post. But, no, it's been amazing to get reunited with the car that I won the championship in. And Williams are definitely celebrating a great heritage. They've got an incredible history, a record of success. and James here is going to take the team forward to deliver more success in the future, but it's going to take a bit of rebuilding, isn't it, James, I think? Yeah, there's a bit more to do, but it's such a great legacy that just powers us up every day. I mean, I'm proud as you are of your championship, and it's something that brought me into the sport, and it's something I'm sure that brought many people here together and brought into the sport as well.

2:40Now, we're going to discuss a lot of different things today, including what the relationship between a driver and a team principal is like. Damon's win in 1996 and loads more about Williams, of course. So James, I'm going to come over to you for this one because you have been team principal of Williams Racing now for a couple of years. You've done a great job, by the way. So can we just give James a big round of applause for the transformation that's been seen so far? Very kind, thank you. Before we get into all the good stuff, though, let's talk about the season so far. You're currently eighth in the Constructors title.

3:13I know that you had really big ambitions coming into the season and a lot of work did go into it but things maybe haven't got fully according to plan maybe from the outside sometimes we're a little harsh about what that reality really looks like and what goes on behind the scenes so can you give us a bit more insight to what really goes on yeah it's I don't think people are harsh people want as I do as we all do Williams to be back at the front I think the support of our fans we've got to remember we're independent so we do this for our fan base and we do this because we enjoy racing. So that comes with the support, but also frustration where we're not quite where we need to be.

3:49I think the key behind this is this. Williams has an incredible legacy, but it's nothing more than emotional fuel for us. We can't rest on it in any way. And as Damon intonated, there was probably just really not the investment required for about 20 years. And what we're doing at the moment is digging that all out and making sure that we have a team capable of moving up the grid, winning races, then winning championships. And there were little bits of it that haven't quite gone the way we wanted over this winter. And frankly, it doesn't sound like much, but we lost about two weeks. And when you lose two weeks, you start falling behind in an incredible way.

4:21Now, it's sorted. I actually think it's one of the best things that can happen to us. It's often darkest before the dawn. And frankly, that's where we are at the moment. And it's allowed us to make quite a few changes that I'm not sure we would have made otherwise. And there's some really great people and systems that we'll bring in. It's a weird space in Formula 1. And cost cap is such a great thing. I completely believe in it. And it's why the sport is successful. But it also locks in a little bit when you have 20 years that's not quite at the right place. It locks it in. So what we're trying to do at the moment is get that changed at the same point as building a car and making sure we're racing competitively on track.

4:55Not quite the right balance this year, but I'm very, very confident it's fixed in the future. Now, obviously, two very important things in a Formula One team are drivers. And James, you are spoiled with your drivers, if I do say so myself. You've got two fantastic drivers in Carlos Sainz. Alex Elbin but there was so much hype around Carlos joining Williams that I don't know if it's just me or maybe some of you feel this as well but maybe Alex got a little overshadowed in all of that and I think that he's played a big role in your team over the years he actually recently overtook Nigel Mansell for most starts that's right William in Barcelona so just how integral has he been to bring this team forward as well I mean Alex I've known for for many many years I started working with him in 2016.

5:38He was actually with us at Mercedes. It wasn't very well known, but that's where he was. I like Alex because he digs deep and he wants this team to be successful. He put in, before I joined, many years in order to start that journey. He's such a funny character out of the car. He really is. You've spent time with him. Yeah, I've not really got to know him that well, but you can tell there's a kind of wry smile on his face a lot of the time. So I think he's keeping all that well hidden at the moment. Exactly. I mean, this person, he has 20 animals at home. He didn't know how many animals he had at home, but it's 20.

6:12I had a competition in Silverstone. I got wrong, so that's why I didn't know this number now. But pull the helmet on, and he's a fierce adversary that will fight for every point. And that's what I enjoy about him. He wants this team to be successful with his heart, and he puts his heart and soul into it. And you're right, he was overshadowed. I think last year he showed you what he can do. He's an incredibly fast racing driver that needs the right car underneath him. That's for us to do, and he'll produce. And I think that resilience is probably something that also sticks out to me when we think about Alex's story.

6:40Now, Damon, I want to come to you on this because I want to get in the driver's mind of how important it is to have that kind of resilience, not only when you're going through a period where you're hoping your team moves forward, but also having very competitive teammates. I mean, you've got a long list of very talented teammates as well. You had Alain Prost, Ayrton Senna, our very own David Coulthard, and the list goes on. What is that resilience like and how hard is it to dig into that? Well, I think you can use them as foils. If you had to sharpen a tool, you need something like a stone to sharpen it on.

7:12And those drivers, really, I had to sharpen up my act to compete against them. And they keep you honest. So in a way, it's a good combination to have two very good drivers who want to beat each other, but with a competitive spirit that is not poisonous. I think there was a time when racing drivers were particularly spiteful towards each other. in the dark and kind of murky past of the 80s and so forth. And they had a reputation of being quite sullen, I think. And then along comes Michael Schumacher, and Michael started to change things when he smiled on the podium and started jumping around waving and looking victorious.

7:54So I think that sort of mood has changed, and people understand that James, having come from Mercedes, knows exactly what it's like when you've got bitterness within a team. it can be quite destructive. So it's a delicate balance. But, you know, you don't, if you're a competitive person, you just don't like being beaten. So you can't get away from that. It's very uncomfortable. And so you have to work extra hard to make sure it doesn't happen again if it has happened. So just tapping into this element of, you know, the relationship between the team principal and the driver and what it takes to build that trust.

8:26James, obviously you had a very drawn out, I don't know if we could call it negotiations, but, you know, what felt like it from the outside. Carlos Sainz was the hottest commodity on the driver market at the time. We didn't know where he was going. Ultimately, he opted for Williams. And that obviously had a lot to do with what you could show him. You know, the key term he used all the time was long-term goal, right? And a long-term sort of journey with Williams. What were the kind of things that you had to say to him to win him over? And how do you maintain that trust when you've come into a year like this, which should have been somewhat of a reset point and things haven't gone according to plan?

9:02Yeah, they're good questions. Step one is like any relationship, transparency. So from, I think, the first signs of trouble around about October last year, he was the first person I called. Alex was the second person I called. The order is not significant. That is just the sequence in which I did it. But I want to make sure that they have full transparency on what's gone well, what's gone wrong, and what we're doing to correct it as soon as possible before anything else is public on top of that. Because that transparency creates trust. What doesn't create trust is if you hide anything. I mean, we've not got it all right, but I'm going to show you what we're doing about it as a result of it.

9:40Here's the changes and here's the lineup. The second bit of it is 40 of his words and 40 of words from Alex is more powerful than me talking to half an hour to a set of individuals. They're incredible leaders if you give them the right stage to perform in that way. And what Carlos will say himself is what we have created at Williams is they're able to leave their touch on how we make the car faster, how we improve, how we become a better team. And a lot of teams these days treat drivers still as a commodity, go in, drive, and that's kind of it. That's not how it works at Williams. We're here to be a united front fighting together.

10:14There's a lot to do, but there's a path for them to do it. So I guess that element of collaboration plays a big role. But Damon, from your perspective as a driver, you know how it is as a racing driver, particularly in F1, where the right move can absolutely make your career and the wrong move can absolutely kill it. So what are the types of things as a driver you're looking for and hoping to see or hear that make you motivated, stay motivated on a journey? Yeah, I mean, no racing driver should be satisfied with where they are unless they're winning. And so, but they have to understand that occasionally you have to build something with a team because actually that's how you get to the end result.

10:53The team will produce the car, the team will give you the equipment and they'll give you the wherewithal to be winning. So it's how you work with people as a driver. I think I didn't fully understand that. I came into Williams as an understudy in a way and also someone who was a test driver. And so I didn't kind of get the same need to galvanize a team around you and inspire the people. When I was with Alain Prost and Nigel, they were the people who were doing that in my mind. And so I think I learned that a little bit too late. I wish I'd known that more early on, that I could have said, okay, you know, because the more I hear about people like Michael and various great drivers is they're brilliant at galvanizing the team behind them.

11:42Sebastian Vettel, I think, is also like that. And I'm sure Lewis has done the same when he's gone to Ferrari as well. He's made sure that they believe in him. And so the driver's a very crucial part of the team. They're not the team boss. They can't run the team. but Patrick and Frank, obviously clearly when I was racing there, they were there and Frank was the leader, you know, and Patrick was the kind of energy that went into the factory and also into the garage as well. So you kind of, I felt I wanted to please them. So I think it's this hunger to explore what's possible as a person and as a driver.

12:25That's as much of the makeup of a driver as being quick. So the parallel you draw with Lewis is quite a good example of, you know, coming out of that 2021 season ending, not having competitive equipment for, you know, almost the whole ground effect era. Then tough first year at Ferrari. Now things really look like they're turning around. But another driver, I guess we could draw this parallel to is Max Verstappen. I mean, he's one that we're hearing a lot of talks about potential moves. It's all rumors as we hear. but in a hypothetical world, what do you think he should be looking for? And from your perspective, what do you think a team principal should be saying to win him over?

13:03I'll let Damon go first on this one. No, that's not fair. Yeah, I mean, I have a view of Max and I don't know if it's correct, but the noises I hear, he must know that the comments he makes about the team and his car are public, you know? And I think, I'm going to throw this back to you, James, now. Now, if you had a driver openly being critical in the way that Max is, would you feel the need to have a word with him about that, or would you just let the drivers be themselves? No, in that case, I would have a discussion with him, because fundamentally we're a team, and it's not a team if you're finger-pointing.

13:39And once you do that as a leader, other people below you think that's the right way of operating. So, no, that's not what I stand for. I mean, if we talk Max, he's exceptional in the car. There's no doubt about it. And he's frustrated. To Damon's point, if you're not winning, nothing else matters to you anymore in that circumstance. And his frustration is what bubbles out in that circumstance. But as soon as you turn it to frustration towards the team, you have basically a fight. And a fight isn't going to make you move any further forward any quicker than where you are. So how do you deal with that as a team principal?

14:11You just have a conversation and you hope that they listen? Fundamentally, the way I've done it, even back when I was in Mercedes, is yeah, you do it in, there's no one else, there's no cameras, it's just you and whoever it is talking at that point in time, and you go to bigger picture. And fundamentally the bigger picture is the driver to a certain extent is a customer to the team, that's where your income comes from, and we are a team in that circumstance. Now if you want to change that, that's one conversation, but if you're here, we're going to bed in together and this is what it looks like.

14:42Okay, well you still haven't answered my question because Damon's asking you harder questions than I am. but just I think that's what we pay I think that I think I understood what you were saying but you know you do have you have to understand I learned a lesson when I was with Williams because I made some critical comments at a time when I was fairly new to the team and you have to walk into the garage and see everyone who's been working really hard for you so you have a nice car to drive and everything and then you realize that you've been not so not so polite as you should have been or not so thoughtful as you should have been and you realize it affects people and and then you've got an awkward situation so you know i think just respecting that you have to take into consideration the energy and the effort and uh you know the people who work for a team it's not so easy for them to go and work for another team you can say okay well i've had it with this team i'm off and then and leave a bad smell behind you know bad vibe you know that's that's not very it's not it's not responsible i don't think for drivers to do that But anyway, that's the way I am.

15:44Maybe I'm old-fashioned. No, no, no, but that does make sense. James, to come back to you on this, well, to both of you, really, silly season is something that comes around almost every year. We don't often know what to expect. There's often a lot of rumours. But something I seem to always think, and it kind of proves in the evidence, in the cake that we've got come out the oven, is the fact that we hear these rumours and then months down the line, something does happen. Take it back to 2024, Monaco. there were all these rumors about Lewis going to Ferrari. It was shut down, like, absolutely not.

16:16That's not happening. Ultimately, that is what happened. You've been on the receiving end of these sort of negotiations with drivers when there are rumors going around. Can you tell us how this information gets leaked? I mean, every now and again, we see a driver walking into hospitality that's not theirs, and we go, oh, what's he doing there? But how does this information get out? Yeah, bits of it is, I mean, it's not team principals creating silly season, I can assure you. It is individuals who want to create articles. And you're right, some of them can be accurate. A lot of them are just fictitious, fundamentally.

16:49But, yes, the way these rumors all start is they'll, for example, see me having dinner with another driver. Now, I have a relationship probably with, I don't know, 10 other drivers. I really enjoy working with them, either from past or otherwise one of them would be Louis. And then it goes into a story from there, fundamentally. And that's not really how this all works. We are an environment where we're traveling together for 24 races and spend more time together than we do with our families. So it's nice to see other people and have dinner with other people. So number one is it can be that. It can be you can see their management going to different motorhomes or it can be political.

17:26There's another team that wants to stir it up. And it's a really great way of creating friction as a result of it. But what about like within your own team? When you were dealing with Carlos for quite a lengthy period, were your whole team aware of it or was it kept very, very secretive? No. I'd like to do negotiations between two individuals and then we'll talk about it afterwards. The team, there was inklings because there was enough information out there and I was pretty public on he was the one that we were certainly looking at. But these are quite sensitive negotiations where it really is only in the end two parties, myself and himself, that finished the negotiation.

18:10Damon, just on the topic of team principals and relationships with them, you worked with Sir Frank Williams, with Eddie Jordan, with Tom Walkinshaw. What were some of those relationships like, and are there any best memories that stand out? They were very different personalities. It has to be said, they were all team owner principals, so it's a bit different today. you know we've got Lawrence Stroll and I'm trying to think of maybe Toto would count as one as well now but it's really Mercedes is the front name but it's almost like his own team now but yeah so and famously Christian Horner wasn't the owner of Red Bull but when you're talking to someone like Eddie it's his team you know he started it from ground up he took all the gambles and so you know he's the gaffer and And so he can do what he likes and they can be, they're very different styles.

19:02I mean, Tom was very, he was very pugnacious, kind of, you know, wanted to get going. But I was only there for a year and he knew he had to impress me in that year for me to not leave. And that was the deal. He understood that. Frank, you also understood, went through all the pain of, like Eddie, and the risk of building a Formula One team, putting the house on the market, you know, mortgaging things and having to pay the wages. and he made it abundantly clear to you that the most important people here are the people I look after in the factory. I'm here to make sure they've got a life and they've got families and they're going to get paid.

19:38And he always paid on time, Frank. The others I'm not so sure about. But Frank was very good. Well, as you say, very different characters. I think even if you look at the team principals across the board now, you know, in the past they were much more commercially minded characters. Today we've got a lot of sort of more engineering background, team principals like yourself. Although I do think, James, if I do allow myself to say this, I think you're quite a good blend of both. That's very kind of you. I think there was... You probably need to know how to do it all anyway, right? I think there's individuals better at both than me.

20:13How's that? I just try and take what I can to bridge the gap between the two. But to your point, yes, here's the trick. You can have more engineering focused team principals, but you need to layer up with commercial savvy people. Toto's the same. Toto knows he's not as strong in the engineering discipline, but he has some really great engineers working by his side. So that's the key point behind it. It's a team. You have strength in your senior leadership by your side. What was it like working with Toto? I mean, he obviously worked with him for a very long time before you moved to Williams. Exceptional character.

20:43He had the vision to take the team where it is today. He had the real vision to commercialize it as he did. very charismatic human being that was able to bring the team on the journey I enjoyed all my years that I was with him So would you say you draw inspiration from Toto or are there other team principals you draw inspiration from? So for me personally I actually had the pleasure of working with David Richards Ross Bourne was another one on my journey and Toto was a part of it as well and actually Damon spoke about Michael I had the pleasure of working with Michael I actually drew a lot of inspiration from him at the same time He was a very different individual in the car.

21:22I do remember, unfortunately, in 96 and 97. But out of the car, he changed the game. Everything he was doing every day was about how do we become better? How do we use video and engineering and data? And why don't we look at this? And why don't we spool this off in the background? He was, in many regards, the originator of let's keep developing and changing. So a lot of inspiration from him. Same from Lewis. He had other qualities. but you pick everything up from everyone that's been inspirational. That's the right word in your life. I guess you never really get inspiration from just one single person, so that makes a lot of sense.

21:55Damon, let's talk about it. 1996. Take us back. Do you have any favorite memories, any moments that you feel like you can relive? Well, obviously, being told you're a world champion over the radio when you're still racing is quite an interesting one, and of course it was a massive relief to have got to that point. Sadly, it was because Jacques Villeneuve's wheel fell off, but we only got one car to the finish. But it wasn't my wheel. Anyway, but yeah, that was the end of the journey. You start the season, you know this is an opportunity, and you try and pack in as many points as you can at the start, which is what happened.

22:36And that car I drove just now has got five. They put, like you're at sort of junior school, they give you gold stars at Williams. They stick them in the chassis if you win. So it's got, it's had five gold stars in there. And a couple of silver ones, which I think is second places or poles. I can't remember anyway. Fastest lap is a red one, I think. Anyway. So it's got loads of lovely stars all stuck in that chassis. So we say the car is the FW18, but actually the chassis does, they had about seven chassis during that season maybe that's overall both cars but um so they don't do the whole season so that one did up to i think the british grand prix so it won a lot of races that car and you you're sitting in that cockpit and it all comes back you know the environment you're in reminds you of those intense experiences i don't know why but i particularly remember argentinian grand prix and i can't i can't think why i just remember thinking driving this car it was so it was so responsive and it required such little inputs to make it do things and um and i just really being was really impressed with it it was such a lovely car to drive the cars have evolved so much i mean i was lucky enough a couple of years ago now to jump into airton's very first formula one car the tollman and i was mind blown i mean what you guys had to go out there and do in those cars was like very different to what the cars are like now what's it like for you to go the other way around and jump into a modern day Formula One car?

24:05Well, I haven't done it, so I can't tell you. Okay. James, could you organize that maybe? The good thing is we have quite a big anniversary next year, so let's see what we can make happen. Okay, you can start training now. You heard it here first. Yeah, I know. I might have to do my neck training. Well, listen, Damon, I watched your movie, your film. I have to say, if any of you have not watched it yet, you must watch it. It's such a fascinating story, and having worked alongside Damon for a few years, I have to say one of the most brilliant, most fascinating minds and such a lovely person to work with.

24:36So check out his film. It's called Hill, right? Yeah, you remember the name. Well done. Of course I did. I'm not making this up. It's a very good film. Right, let's talk about championship winning seasons and inter-team battles. You were obviously there for some sort of very firework-y years at Mercedes. Let's think back to 2016 maybe with Lewis and Nico. So what do you think Toto will be thinking now that he's got two drivers competing for this world title? And what do you think he might do differently? We learnt a lot in 2016. I think it's worth pointing out. I mean, any time you don't create the right construct, you can end up in a bit of a mess.

25:19And we didn't have it quite right in that year. What you want is an ability for both drivers to go out there and fight every weekend for the championship in a fair, constructed way. rather than interfering, if that makes any sense. But you also have your own goals in place, which is we as a team need to also win that championship. We already improved in 17, 18, 19, and Toto has the experience now beyond that point. But a couple of things we do. Before the season even kicks off, you lay down some ground rules of how you can actually engage each other, what you can do, how to go in qualifying, how to do the orderings, how to work in the races, your accountability as a driver.