Arsenal stumble (again), Villa get their first league win and Fifpro releases a report on working conditions in women’s football

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1:21Welcome to Upfront. I'm Chloe Morgan. And I'm Rachel O'Sullivan. Arsenal stumbled again and Chelsea thrash Spurs in Sonia Bompasta's 50th WSL game. We get into all of the action from those fixtures, as well as breaking down Aston Villa's first league win of the season. We're also finding a moment to shout out Sazie Viggs and her new contract, plus taking a look at Thief Pro's recent survey on player experience in the women's game internationally.

1:53Oh my God, what a joy to be back in the studio. You're here, I almost forgot what you look like. And everyone looks so amazing today. You come in, your brown suede jacket and your lovely tailored jeans and your brogues. Tailored jeans for H &M. The producer's got a new haircut and looks very glowy and holiday-esque and I've basically just come over jet lag. I barely showered this morning. I've come in with a raspy cough. So it's really nice to be back, you know, to share not only the smells that I've brought with me today, but the look as well. You've been missed. Have you missed me? How much?

2:27About, yeah. Because I heard on the grapevine that you cheated on me last week and got someone else in. I did, yeah. Right. She was better as well. Younger. Yeah, no. Yeah. No, that's too far. Too far from you. No, obviously, I really appreciated Emily Steppelin. stepping up to the mic for me as well. It was really nice to kind of finish off the holiday and not think about women's football for a whole ass week before coming back to talk once again about Arsenal. Have you missed it? No.

2:54Chloe: Arsenal decided to stay the course and keep the topic the same. So when you came back, it's the same problems. Literally, I've just copied and pasted all the notes from the previous shows into this one. So you're in for a treat, listeners. I was reading Tim Stillman's post-match piece and I feel like when he's at a loss for words, you know, it's a problem. Literally, I think this is going to be a blank page in his next write-up because what can you do? I'm not going to get into the Arsenal stuff. Before we get into the Arsenal stuff, I've got to keep to schedule and I've got to keep to the format that we had.

3:23So, moment of the week. I'm actually going to give it to pretty much all of the goals

3:28Chloe: in the Charlton-Manchester United game. Oh, nice. Such good goals. Lovely. Watch the highlights. Absolute quality. And I just thought, wow. Any standout one for you? Actually, I really liked Davidson's goal for Charlton and also Ella Toons. I mean, they were all, listen, all of them, just go and watch it. Lovely, lovely little highlights reel there. Manchester United won 3-1. They'll be very pleased getting another three points on the board. But I just thought, wow, in terms of quality goals, loved that. Also, a really, really nice thing for Eva Ollid to kind of experience, you know, consistent run of form for Manchester United, kind of putting some of those initial doubts slightly to bed.

4:03I know there were slightly easier sides, but it's a nice positive upswing.

4:07Chloe: Listen, she's starting to find the balance between what she wants and what they can deliver. And they're starting to find a little bit of form. So just in time for the Manchester Derby. Right. Well, mine is the Maker Romano goal. I cannot. I just, I cannot. The lovely thing about it is that there was a gorgeous camera angle on the repeat that took it head on. So you can see the goal straight in front of you. And she strikes it. She's in a central position outside the box. And the curvature on it, it's almost like a kind of, like an upside down L. It kind of like, it starts centrally and veers off really quite rapidly over to the right-hand corner.

4:47And there's just absolutely no chance that the cop has at all. It's just, it defies physics. Have you seen, and I'm going to show you,

4:53Chloe: we're going to do a live viewing here. Oh, go on. It's a new feature that we've added since I've been away. Alyssa Thompson, I hope this angle shows you, her reaction, right? So watch her here. Goal's obviously beautiful, but just watch her reaction to the goal. For those of you that obviously can't see that, it is head in hands, it is disbelief, it is shock and obviously like she's one of those Romano's like one of those players that like she just screams joy like her smile is like probably the best smile in the WSL it was just like such a gorgeous gorgeous moment for her so yeah if you haven't seen that go and see all the goals from the Man United Charlton game and also the maker Romano go because that was just absolutely bloody unbelievable can I just say if we weren't going to touch on that game that would have been my highlight yeah but because we are going to touch on that game we can talk about it some more in a minute look at us back on the same page again.

5:41Bye, Emily. No, I don't mean that at all. I love Emily's pieces. Let's get stuck into Arsenal then. We might as well just get it out of the way because it just feels like every single time that we decide what we're going to put in the running order, there's loads of questions about whether it should be Arsenal that we discuss again. Are we giving our listeners something new in our shows? But how can we avoid the biggest talking point of the week? We should clip up. Arsenal draw, Birmingham City 1-1.

6:08Chloe: How many times have I put in the WhatsApp group at the end of the weekend? We're going to have to talk about Arsenal again, aren't we? Yeah. And we do. You can't avoid it. Can they just win a game like, do you know what though? They'll go and win a game 4-0 and we're going to go, we're going to have to talk about that because they've bloody won a game and scored goals. And now we have to talk about that. Yeah, 100%. It's not the elephant in the room with Arsenal. It's like the bad fart in the room. That's the only way. You can't go on ignoring it any longer. So you just have to find out where it's come from.

6:32You have to call it out. We can't figure it out. They're now eighth, obviously, in the table on six points. after six games. They were 10. Well done for finding a silver lining to that. 12 points off of Man City at the top and nine points off the Champions League spots. Let's talk a little bit about this game as an overall first because it does feel like, again, we've got this really sort of promising positive situation. Arsenal having 27 shots to Birmingham's five, just four on target so that the promise of shooting and the promise of the opportunity is there but then it doesn't quite come to fruition and Arsenal are continuously hitting their head against a wall.

7:11I don't know what else to keep on saying, but we will find a way to obviously get through the next 35 to 40 minutes.

7:17Chloe: I think one of the issues was the quality of shots they created. You know, I'm not going to say easy to deal with for Birmingham, but Birmingham were defending very resolutely, bodies on the line. We might talk about her in a minute, but Niamh Heron was unbelievable. and the quality of the shots maybe weren't, you know, other than maybe Russo hitting the post, there was another good save from Bagley. Like they weren't the kind of like, you absolutely should have scored that type of shots. Does that make sense? So I think that's a little bit of a concern as well. Not only are they not converting 27 shots and four on target, it's dreadful.

7:50Chloe: You said Birmingham had five. They had one on target and one goal. So that conversion rate is significantly better. But I think that's the frustration. It was painfully slow at times. particularly in the first half and I was I was shooting photography wise shooting Arsenal's shooting end and there were just times where I was like why have you stopped? Come forward why the ball is just going side to side or this foot on the ball thing it reminded me a bit of Man City under Gareth Taylor where you'd often see Alex Greenwood kind of put a foot in the ball in her own half and just kind of stand looking for options and you're like move the ball that is how you catch teams out you know you've got such high quality such quick players great wingers you've got I mean I was going to say an informed striker now in Russo that she's scored quite a bit in the last couple of games particularly for England and she was scoring for Arsenal but obviously she was put in the 10 and so that didn't help but you know move the ball quickly if you're going to try and break down a low block where Birmingham at times maybe did counter or you were starting from a goal kick or wherever it might be move the ball quickly instead this slow passive move forward towards the opposition box and then you get up to the opposition box and then you turn around and you pass it back and you go back around the box by that stage like Birmingham are completely set ready for you it's just like the most frustrating thing to watch because no one's moving for the ball the ball isn't being passed quickly it's the same turgid kind of issues week in week out 100 % I think I couldn't agree more I think I feel slightly differently about the shots because it kind of feels like whilst you know there was a very small handful of them that were on target there's this kind of massive gap that when you have shots there's like the shots that you absolutely like 20 yards out just absolutely going nowhere absolute floofers gone into the gone into the crowd whatever and then there's this kind of like middle bank of shots that should be on target or should be converted into goals and I feel like that section that's about 15 or so like you've got Smilla Homburg like she was so close I mean she was what a foot off Sophie Bagley I think probably would have equaled it in that in that sense and you've got the um Olivia Smith layoff to Blackstinius and then that just dinks just past the post and it kind of feels like there's bomb Lottowobin-Moye Russo yeah the list goes on of kind of these like near misses and it kind of feels like well but what what is that what is that extra one percent what is that extra half a foot that you're not you're not converting them into shots on target what why are you missing that when you are such world-class strikers I feel like I'm asking this question every week and when you're coming off the back of an international break where Russo is scoring Stina is scoring like players are playing well for their national team why doesn't that translate into like Holmberg scored Blackstinia's had a brace for example in their last game why does that not translate why does that you know and and for Russo obviously that Caldente is now injured they were dealing with some injuries Caldente out Little was sick but you know Russo to be fair to her then had to play deeper fine not that I can understand it like part of me is like she's an in-form striker now she scored in the international break keep her in the nine put Reuteler or someone in there and then at least have someone to come off the bench because this thing is starting the two of them they did it once against Manchester United and it worked really well I think they maybe did it once against Chelsea and it worked well everyone's figured that out now so it's not like the kind of dice roll that it used to be and it also limits your options off the bench in terms of who can come on and grab a goal and Steena has done that in the past when she's come off the bench to bag Arsenal a goal but like it's just so that's a frustrating thing but I just don't understand why the sharpness of players who are sharp for their national team why does that not translate to your club team and is that an issue that the manager or the technical staff they're not getting the best out of the players 100 % I think the chance I think that kind of summed it up for me was that the Lou Willamson and like delivered that deep ball in.

11:42Obviously, the Alessa Russo header strikes the woodwork. That should have been on target. That should have been a goal, let alone on target. But it was like that rebounds back into play. But I was like looking at actually the players that were around that ball who could have picked up on that rebound and pounced on that chance. And you've got Russo who obviously couldn't because she just affected the header. And no one else really around to even like pounce on a chance of a ball being whipped in. And that's an attack. It's like, how is no one in the vicinity to pick up? And that's what you mean about the kind of the passion and the dedication and kind of this like sharpness to think if this ball's being whipped in, let's go for the rebound.

12:14Let's check up on these like second, third like waves of it. And it's not there.

12:19Chloe: Do you know what it is there? What? When they concede and suddenly they play with a bit of urgency. They're taking shots from outside the box. Olivia Smith pulling out a worldie like that. There's enough players in that squad that can score from outside the box as well. So why you're not seeing opportunity, you know, why they're not taking opportunities like that. But I imagine it's frustrating for Arsenal fans to watch their team concede and then suddenly turn up the intensity and go, actually, let's bang off some shots and go, let's play quickly, let's whip in ball. You're like, where's that been for 90 minutes?

12:48Chloe: Like, that's the big frustration. Absent. And also, this is the team, 75.5 % of possession and to only achieve one goal and that many shots on target, I think is quite ridiculous when you're that dominant. But I think let's have a quick, let's give a bit of credit here to Birmingham City because obviously it felt like a game in which Arsenal, at their strongest, should have capitalised on. You know, Birmingham, new entrance to the WSL, not doing too badly for themselves, mind. You know, still presenting a lot of challenges. But this was a Birmingham who was so resolute in their defending. So their back four all made more than 11 clearances, which is the first time a team has had four players make more than 10 in one game in WSL history.

13:28Millie Turner had 12, Shannon Cook on 12, Rebecca McKenna on 11, and Niamh Heron on 11 too. And it felt like because of the way that Birmingham was set up in this kind of almost like low block fashion it kind of felt like Arsenal couldn't really they didn't have a lot of opportunities and then when Birmingham did have an opportunity that through ball the way that that cut through the the the mid fit I just do you know what I

13:52Chloe: love about that as well it came from Niamh Heron yeah who was having this stellar game defensively and then she threads the needle and this is the thing like for Arsenal and Renee said it afterwards she was basically like we had one player we needed to stop and we didn't do it and the thing is it's not just like they have a threat of a counter they have a threat of a consistent effective striker who given a chance will take it and that's what I think is you know you need to be a bit more alive too because yes there's always a threat of a counter attack but when you have a player like Earthray who's got a 33 % goal conversion rate you know you've got a pretty high chance that if she gets a shot she'll score and also like just the finish the audacity of her finishes you know that was their first shot on target and she is the balls to just kind of like dink it the way she did shrug off two arsenal defenders um i just yeah but we were talking about this before the show weren't we and urtras is this one of these players who you know she's not a particularly massive stature but it's the physicality that she shows and that ability to be able to shrug off you know two super super experienced world-class defenders she has to keep her balance she has to maintain that kind of physicality as she's running making sure the ball doesn't like release too far in front of her and then that that beautiful i mean there's nothing misa rodriguez could have done about that she's tried to come out she's tried to make herself as big as possible but that the dink it just kind of it falls just over her leg and just in between sort of below her her hand and it's just it's the the composure that she has i mean now she's second goal scorer top goal scorer in the wsl six in six she was briefly top and bunny was like excuse me i'm just gonna bang the break there so yeah excuse you this is my spot and I also like she was uh switched sides that she was on uh on a Bajay side which is an she's in the wrong position if you I think naturally left left fullback is a bit uncomfortable for her and Arsenal are being punished down that side and Amy Merrick's recognized that and had Ertrey switched um to that side and I think she was very effective down there I mean we the ball did come through centrally but I think they were alive to the fact that A, if they defend resolutely and they will trouble Arsenal and B, in terms of an area of weakness, that side of Arsenal is a struggle for them.

16:07Chloe: So yes, I think credit to Birmingham in terms of their game plan. It worked very effectively. I would be wrapping up that contract with Urtra literally... 10 years. Yeah, 100%. She is absolutely imposing herself on the WSL like no one else that I've seen this year, I'd say. I think come January, come next summer, there's going to be a lot of people knocking on her door. And what I love as well, a lot of her goals, you know, sometimes you might have, like a number nine, for example, who's just in the right place at the right time, as is their job, for a ball that's bouncing around the box and they are efficient enough to put it away.

16:43Chloe: A lot of her goals are, I'm not going to say self-made because, you know, I think her teammates know they find her, she's going to probably, a bit like Kirstie Hansen last season, she's going to get a shot off. But, you know, she has to eat up a lot of ground with some of the goals that she has scored where solo efforts yeah and it just makes it all the more impressive in terms of like those they're high pressure situations you're not like quick reaction to a ball in the box which you know maybe some of her goals are but these goals are ones where she's gone right I've got like a half of a pitch to cover I've got defenders like hanging off me bearing down on me the angle maybe it's getting really really tight it's cool I'm not just going to get a shot off probably get a goal too and I just the quality of her goals as well is especially impressive.

17:23100%. And because of her efforts, obviously a lot of pressure now being piled on to Arsenal. Boos after the game. I mean, it's a hard one, isn't it? Because it's like you don't want to kick a team when they're down. When your fans start to turn against you, which is, I think, sometimes quite a difficult... We always see Arsenal as kind of the positive club. They do so much with the women's team. You know, biggest fan base, kind of like big fanfare. People have obviously been starting to change their opinions a little bit because of how, you know, Arsenal haven't been performing this year. A lot of questions being asked of Rene Sleggers, who sort of, you know, she's come out and said it was really about the technical basics letting us down in the first half, which is true, but it's not really getting to the cause of what's happening.

18:00Chloe: What's interesting about what Tim said, he said it was in his piece, it was kind of the first time that Renee had kind of shown some frustrations and put a little bit of frustration back on the players because normally she is more like, it's on me, it's on us, quite like protective. But he said he felt like the mask slipped a little bit and she kind of showed her frustrations towards some of the players by kind of saying it's like individual errors, basic errors, technique, whatever, you know, that kind of thing. You could see just how frustrated she was in her post-match. I think it's got to be a mixture of everyone.

18:31Everyone has to take accountability. Like Rene sometimes isn't making the right decisions. Sometimes the players aren't making the right decisions in those moments. So something needs to start clicking and the worst this goes on, it kind of feels like a bit of a spiral. But, you know, it's unlikely now that the league is in contention. She kind of ruled it out before. but obviously now they've not won a league title since 2019 and it kind of feels like it's not going to be 2027.

18:55Chloe: I will say if they do decide to make a change it needs to be and this is something we talked with Emily last week it needs to be a proper deep dive change it can't just be the top goes because we've seen these similar problems with Arsenal under multiple managers so it's a deeper rooted issue that needs to be addressed rather than just the usual oh it's like the manager and it'll fix everything. Well, if that wasn't enough, there's a big, big game coming up from this weekend. It's the North London derby next for Arsenal. Historically, it kind of has always been a relatively easy fixture for them, which is positive.

19:30With the 21 games played against Spurs, Arsenal have won 15, drawn four and lost just two. An aggregate score of the last five competitive North London derbies is 14 to three to Arsenal. It's an interesting time for both sides be meeting because Arsenal obviously not in the best run of form Spurs currently on fourth on 10 points but coming off the back of two six nil yeah two absolute thumpings um speaking of which let's touch a little bit on the uh the Chelsea 6-2 thrashing um against Spurs Chelsea now make it five wins in a row in the league a big win on Sonia's 50th WSL game um you have to think about her career as a whole and when you kind of look back on some of the stats around it So she's amassed 125 points in that period, more than any other manager in their first 50 games.

20:18Chloe: That happened in this game. So if she had drawn that, she would have equaled Joe Montemuro's record. But by winning it, she's overtaken. I love that. It's really annoying that Chelsea have kind of gone back to this like really elitist kind of machine like way. Machine is a great descriptor because, I mean, let's get into it. opening kind of 60 minutes I thought it was a really even exciting contest and then the machine just clicked into gear and suddenly they were motoring at a completely different it was like a Maserati next to a you know Honda yeah yeah it just like just clicked into gear and was like wow that's that's what it felt like you just you could almost feel the kind of change in levels when that was the second goal that went in.

21:06Chloe: And yeah, it was impressive to watch where they kind of found that rhythm. I think it was one of those games that I felt like for a long period of time, up until halftime, probably essentially, maybe a little bit after that, it kind of felt like Spurs and Chelsea were going head to head. And this really felt like a bit of a match of the Titans. It kind of, to me, marked a bit more of a progression in Spurs and kind of the dominance that they were able to show and how much they were taking the game to Chelsea and unafraid to do that, which we haven't seen in previous seasons. so much and then it kind of felt like in that 57th minute you've got the ellie carpenter goal and then from then on that nine minute period where they conceded those three goals spurs just fell apart you like to call it like a wet cake and it that was the bit it was on the same page i missed you so much and then it kind of felt like all the hard work that they'd done in keeping spurs at bay in you know being really forthcoming in in attacking football it all just fell apart and it was so frustrating frustrating to to see that and i think it was um i don't know i mean obviously martin ho after the match you can say you know he was saying you know because he as a young team we lack a little bit maturity in these big games that will come with time uh the three goals we conceded obviously not great but we can't completely collapse in those moments and that is individual responsibility and accountability to to defend but there was what what impressed me somewhat and i it's hard to say there's positives out of this game but i think there are from the way tottenham played there was a disjointedness between their front line and their back line in that I felt like, and I'd have to go back and re-watch it again, but it felt like every time Chelsea scored, within 90 seconds to two minutes, Tottenham were down the other end with a chance.

22:41Yeah.

22:42Chloe: Right? So, in terms of not kind of suddenly sitting back going, they were like, right, we've got to go try and get a goal. And I really rated the, I mean, they weren't as effective in front of goal as Chelsea were, obviously. But, you know, they had 13 shots, seven on target to Chelsea's 17, eight on target. So, from a 6-2 game, It doesn't sound like a 6-2 game when you look at that. My point being that they were able to turn around and get up the pitch and be brave and get up the pitch quickly and try and get a goal back. And when Chelsea got their second, Pilova had a chance. She was offside and it got pulled back and she got booked because she took the shot anyway, et cetera, et cetera.

23:18Chloe: And when you think about, not sliding doors moments, but when you think, had that ball gone in and it had been an immediate response, it could have been super interesting, but it didn't. And that's where it kind of fell apart. And there was a moment in the game, it didn't actually lead to a goal. but it was a moment where I was kind of like, that's the difference. Apart from maybe say, for example, some of the players Chelsea were able to bring off the bench and how they impact the game. That's one difference. But there was a moment where Chelsea were in the first half, borderline backs to the wall, right?

23:46Chloe: Tottenham were bearing down on goal. They had a couple of chances. I think it was Blackstad and Vinberg and Holt had had a couple of like shots in and they were blocking them. And, you know, Chelsea were kind of defending. And suddenly, I can't remember, this is, I need to go back and find out who it was that picked up the ball, but they were deep in their own box and they just spotted the gap that had been left down Tottenham's left-hand side and Ellie Carpenter was away and they just, lovely little dink of a ball over, I think maybe it was Holt, into Ellie Carpenter's path who'd already made the run and she took off the length of the pitch and had a shot and goal because I immediately thought this is going to be a goal.

24:20Chloe: It wasn't. But they're the decisions in key moments that are a team of Chelsea's quality where they can recognise in those really difficult moments where they're defending and a team's bearing down them who have quality players in front of goal and they can not just like make a few passes out. They're immediately starting to counterattack with one pass. And that was the kind of, that's the confidence building moments in games where they're like, okay, even when we're back to the wall, we can still come out of this with an opportunity. And as you say, they just switched gear in the second half and it was a devastating nine minutes.

24:50Chloe: And when you've got the likes of a Lauren James in the form that she's in, scoring the kind of goals that she's scoring, it just lifts the whole team. Let's just take a brief moment to talk about that Lauren James goal because that was a fucking joke if I'm being really frank about it. And I don't like swearing on the podcast at all. No, I don't like it at all. But that was an absolute joke. I don't really understand. I feel like I'm losing the basic grasp of science because some of the angles of these goals and the way that the ball hits that, when you see the ball being struck, I'm not expecting it to hit the back of the net because I'm just like, the angle's off.

25:26You've got to go through so many bodies. it's physically impossible the ball is this big the space is this big not sure how you're doing it but like that Lauren James goal it was just so brilliant such a solo effort to take on four players and a goalkeeper and still find the back of the net from an angle that was no bigger than a slice of very small cake at Costa I don't understand Do we need to look into the ball?

25:48Chloe: Is there a conspiracy here? Is it like squeezing through space and time? and the Romano goal it's defying gravity It doesn't make any bloody sense obviously Sonia was really really sort of praising of James after the game she said when LJ is playing at this level we're talking about a top class player a world class player which kind of it goes without saying and now this result means that Chelsea have played 20 games against Spurs in their history and they've won all 20 wow that's not a nice stat is it not for Spurs no that's not a nice stat it also meant briefly that they were actually at the top of the league before Man City decided to for like half an hour it was like yeah but it's 30 minutes isn't it and it's the aesthetics of seeing it it's the visuals of seeing that you know that's where you want to be it's kind of like a you know some people like get in the shower and think about the day and like what they want to achieve and it was there for a brief moment and but also it's a statement as well and like there were times early on in the season where people were questioning Chelsea's ruthlessness the first game of the season yes but they then kind of answered it with their 5-0 win over Manchester United but you know there were questions around them being ruthless in front of goal we saw them in the Champions League as well not anymore guys look out they've found their shooting boots well talking of people who have found their shooting boots and a bit of an achievement coming off after this Aston Villa get their first win

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28:42Oh, big celebrations for the villains getting their first win of the season, doubling their points total. They're now 10th on six points. Sorry. Doubling their points total. They were only on save. What offensive time to giggle. Sorry. They've gone through a lot of hardships. They've lost a manager. It's been a turbulent start to the season. We're finally talking about them in a positive lives and you go and giggle there with your suede jacket on. Who put in the line doubling their points?

29:11Chloe: That was just so necessary. I think it was Bruno. It's Bruno. He's got his tan. He's got his hair done. He's got a bit ahead of himself recently. A bit ahead of himself, yeah. Liverpool dominated on paper, but couldn't get another after Natalya Ramos' screamer of an opener. It was Romano-esque, this goal. It just, actually, to be fair, that probably could have equaled my moment of the weekend. So I'll give it to Natalya as well. But it did feel like a very, it was an open game, I felt. It was a bit topsy. No, do you know what I think? If you're a Liverpool fan, I'd be annoyed. Like, you're letting a game get away from you like that.

29:47Chloe: They had 23 shots. Yeah. Nine on target. I still felt like it was an open game though, because it kind of felt like the chances that Villa had were fairly decent. Yeah, I just think it was, I felt like a bit more of a game of two halves in that the second half, the substitutions for Aston Villa really made a difference as well. And I think it was important that they were able to stay. I mean, I was going to say stay in the game, but that Liverpool weren't effective in front of goal. They will be frustrated in that respect. I think the same thing happened with Tottenham. They had Tottenham on the ropes and they let them back into the game.

30:16Chloe: this was a bit like Brian Sorensen facing Liverpool when he was with Everton and they were on the ropes and suddenly they came out of the game with a win early on last season like second half substitutions and tweaks made such a difference equally I'm going to ask you a goalkeeper assist how like I've only ever done it once and it was for a pre-season game and it was weirdly enough because it was me against Becky Spencer in the pre-season run-up because we were like we don't know who's going to start as number one for the first WSL season and it was an assist over to, I think it was Gemma Davison and it was like a, do you know what?

30:50I didn't even mean it. That's the worst. That's the worst thing about it. Cut that, cut that. No, we're not going to say that. Totally meant it. Totally meant it, 100%. And yeah, flew it over. Gemma Davison, a bit of pace on her, took on a defender and then like booted it into top bins. And it was like, the disbelief, I was just like, I never thought that would happen in my career.

31:09Chloe: Do you like, do you pin the match report? Like, what do you do? Do you like your names on the assist line? There wasn't really a match report, because it was like pre-season vibes and it was against, I think it was against the WSL 2 team as well. It was like closed doors. Stop trying to like map the doors. No, no, I remember it now and it was like over, it was about six years ago now. So it's still fresh in my mind because I was like that, that cemented me as number one for this season and it did not. Oh. So, moving swiftly on. Kumail, Kumail, with a lovely assist. Speaking of wonderful finishes, Chastity Grant's finish.

31:39Chloe: Oh, my lord. She's playing with more confidence this season. I don't know if it's a case of stepping up in the absence of their key goal scorer. But I felt like last season she was taking a little while just to find that confidence and that maturity in those final moments. And I think you're seeing more of that this season, which is really exciting. She looks so much more confident on the ball. She's always an absolute weapon and outlet for Villa. She's so dangerous. I think 100 % that goal was absolutely outstanding. What I would say, if I'm going to be super, super critical of Chiara Keeson, and you know how much I love her, you know how much I love her, her positioning for that because like too close to the post the near post yeah because Chastity Gratner kind of taken it out a little bit wider where Kiara Keaton was positioned it wasn't kind of centrally to the ball in the middle of the goal she positioned herself way too close to the near corner but saying that I would say that how many goals have we seen this season from incredible strikers who have found those gaps at the near post when keepers think they are going top bins so I think it's one of those situations where you almost kind of you're asking the impossible now of keepers because you've got these strikers now who can bed balls in the in the absolute roof of the net and also take for granted that keepers will probably be anticipating that and get you near post so i also think she had i think it was fisk on her left shoulder bearing down and maybe keating thought she was going to get a block in so yeah but no fair enough but yeah wonderful um wonderful finish from her um but as i touched on i do think substitutions made a difference for um aston villa i have to be so careful not to call them everton like the other day when I was doing the press conference with Brian Sorens and I almost asked him about the team that Everton were playing and I caught myself and was like no no I think that's an understandable error isn't it but you know bringing on Jean-Francois Imran Imran great signing has been injured for a little bit just really made a difference and I think it allowed them to kind of swing the momentum somewhat but I still think Gareth Taylor would be very frustrated that they weren't able to put that game to bed oh 100 % and I think the frustration probably made even more so by the fact that it was a third own goal for Liverpool that kind of changed the run of the results I mean I do feel sorry for Grace Fisk it was obviously like the ball had bounced really awkwardly in it kind of caught her body and gone in like there was nothing much you could do about it but it just felt like deflation and kind of heads down but I mean like you said with Brian Sorensen though first win as interim head coach the club confirmed on Friday that Sorensen will continue in the role for the rest of the season I think everyone kind of expected this there were no names being kind of rumoured no you know sort of big appointments that looked like they were going to be made but how do we feel about this because I feel like Brian's kind of steadied the ship a little early doors it's early doors it's not been that many games wasn't it Palace they played pre-international break and they drew you know I don't think you can read too much into it yet they've had a league cup game as well I love the calm and message you are about all of your responses you never get hyped up in the drama like I do I do feel a bit like the sacking of Natalya Arroyo was quite abrupt in terms of them making that decision, which, again, we touched on in terms of what they'd done preseason versus their expectations and whether they really matched up or not.

34:48Chloe: But it feels like they responded to a run of poor results without really then having a backup plan. But they had the benefit of having a former WSL manager in their midst who could step in. I like Brian. I think, you know, I'm always impressed with how dynamic and tactical he can be in terms of not being too wedded to one specific way of playing. He is willing to adapt and change things up to kind of trip up his opponents, if you like. And I really respect that. I think, though, if Aston Villa are wanting to, I don't know what Aston Villa are wanting to do, if I'm totally honest. Let's get Maggie Murphy back on the pod.

35:24Chloe: Let's get it from the horse's mouth. But look, maybe Brian allows them to have time to go out and have a look and see who's available and have a think about what they want for the club and the direction they want to take them. And if that's Brian, fair enough. But I think if they're wanting to be an ambitious club, will they go elsewhere and see if they can get in some fresh blood? Maybe. But they have given themselves time and at least they have someone who knows the league who can steady the ship. Yeah, he's an experienced head. I feel like he's a bit of, he never gets sort of carried away or agitated.

35:53I feel like he kind of maintains this level of like just neutral even like in the presses and kind of like on the sidelines he just there's a calmness to him that I think Aston Villa probably

36:02Chloe: need at this point he always made me laugh when he when he was at Everton and they were going through various runs of injury and it was just that kind of the monotone he'd take out his list and he'd be like there's out Gally's out Finnegan's out but you could just tell from him he's like oh I've got a list now so I don't forget. But no, it'd be interesting to see how they get on. I'd like to see a few more games under his belt to see if he's really, you know, because he spoke about him feeling he was, you know, slightly different coach to Natalia Arroyo. And yet the goal that Chastity Grant scored was a route one Natalia Arroyo back to front goal, which I just thought was quite ironic.

36:42Well, well, well, well, time will tell for Brian Sorensen. But on the subject of managers and contracts, Sazie Viggs is going nowhere. She signed a new deal, taking her to 2029, meaning she'll have a chance to win the Lionesses, a third Euros in a row. Can you imagine? Can you imagine the scenes of a third Euros in a row? I'm getting a bit carried away. Vigman has now been in the job for five years. She obviously spoke about the extension saying, I'm grateful to Mark Bullingham, who's the FA chief executive, and Debbie Hewitt, the FA chair, and the FA board for the incredible way they have backed me, my coaches, and support team and of course the players.

37:19I'm honoured by their trust which I never take for granted. I want to keep this great partnership going. I have such a strong desire to see what we can achieve together with their amazing fans. I actually remember we were in the press pack weren't we for the Women's World Cup in Australia and we were going out to the arse end of that place that I can't remember. It's Terrigal. It gives me nightmares now. It took three hours to get there and you get there and there was just nothing around no coffee shops like people didn't eat.

37:45Chloe: It's very lionesses. they always have them staying out in the schticks because they're terrified they might see the public. So they always put them, like, even in Crete, they were miles out. It just doesn't, it's honestly, it's like trying to find a rare bird in the wild, like you said. But I remember there was a lot of talk about, like, Serena Riegelman's contract and kind of the bonus situation. And also there was a lot of hype around kind of Gareth Southgate and how much he was being paid and why the women's team, because obviously they had achieved, you know, such massive things by that point.

38:12You already won a year, you just got into the, obviously, the World Cup final for that year. Gareth Southgate's team hadn't. Have not achieved any trophies since 66. And there was a lot of discussion about kind of what that contract negotiation looked like and the salary and the bonuses and stuff. So my biggest hope more than anything else in the world is that some contract discussions have taken place that have been very, very forceful. And she's got herself

38:34Chloe: a really, really bloody good deal. Oh, I thought you were going down a different angle in that we won't have to listen to people ask that question in every bloody press conference in the lead up to the tournament. I think people should ask the question I think everyone has Serena's back. No, no, no, I mean, asking her, are you going to stay on if you don't? Oh, yeah. I'm so glad because it's such an irritating question during a major tournament where you're like, there are so many other things we should be talking about. Why is she still being asked this question? Oh, but I love the drama, Rach.

38:58I love the questions. Even if you think they're a bit redundant, like I love the kind of like the talk about it, you know? No, it's so annoying.

39:06Chloe: Anyway, it is great. It's great news. You know, there's not many top, top jobs in women's football, especially from a national perspective in terms of federations that are really backing their team and a lot of those top top jobs already have top top managers in them so brilliant for England to make sure that they have her in the lead up to this World Cup and beyond which I think is great again as I said hopefully ends those contracts discussions but I think for her there is the challenge of she's not won a World Cup that challenge is still there there's also the potential of an Olympics in 2028 and also overseeing what I would say is a bit of a transitional period with the Lionesses.

39:45Chloe: She came in, you know, had a Euros straight away, had a World Cup straight away, you know, didn't have as much time to transition the team and to start bringing in more players. We're seeing fresh blood now coming through. She's obviously played a huge part in getting the under-23s involved and having that pathway and probably relishes the opportunity to help that team, help the team transition and again, potentially get into the World Cup first of all, potentially try and get to another World Cup final, win it this time um and also if they can qualify for the olympics that's going to be a difficult task because of the way the nation's league now uh works but um i still think there's plenty of challenges for her that keep the job interesting definitely i 100 think the biggest uh biggest challenge is that kind of this transition that the squad is going through because like when she first started we were still talking about jill scott and ellen white and now we're talking about like Jess Park Jessica Park all these young guns coming into the fold and it kind of feels like there's a real concerted effort I think to kind of show that she isn't going to be that kind of like the old Serena of consistency and we know what the start of 11 is it feels like this is a new era and I feel like she's really bedded into that so I feel really excited actually especially for this World Cup I actually I don't know I think it's quite hard to call the squad at this point well yeah but obviously they're going to both hands Christ and Ireland like you said all they've got to do now is beat Ukraine in the World Cup qualifying playoff in six weeks time which they will do coming up after this we're discussing FIPRO's recent report on player experience and what he can tell us about the status of the women's game alright Rach let's get stuck into a bit of a I love a deep dive topic we've covered a lot of games in this pod but now let's talk about some recent research.

41:36Last week, FIFPRO, the Global Players Union, published a report entitled Working Conditions in Women's Football, which found that 49 % of the approximate 800 surveyed players are considering leaving the sport earlier than planned. Of those 49%, over half-sighted financial reasons and 46 % singled out psychological stress as the reason. It also found that 57 % has struggled with their mental health. Obviously, I mean, I love the FIFA reports. They're amazing. I think they bring to light a lot of the issues that still exist in the women's game. You know, we talk about the progress and the attention, the investments and all these things that are going up.

42:11But I think sometimes it's important for us to kind of peel back a couple of the layers to kind of see what's going on behind the scenes. But it does feel like this report has kind of really brought to light, you know, whilst we're seeing all this progress happening, the working conditions in women's football for a lot of the players that are still playing at professional level and the professional kind of sort of definition, I suppose, is quite varied, which is an issue in itself. But it kind of feels like we're still not bringing along the players globally into this kind of like progress that we're seeing because we're seeing loads of investment coming in.

42:43Every time we speak about a new brand that's entering the space or, you know, this money's being ploughed into here, but actually the players aren't hearing that or hearing or experiencing that progress in the same way.

42:53Chloe: I think we're seeing this across the board and, you know, This highlights that it is also happening from a player perspective. But the desire and drive for growth tends to supersede everything else, which I understand you want the game to grow so that there's more money in the game that can be invested in the game. But sometimes we then forget about what exists already. So whether that's existing fans that have been in the game for a long time, existing players who've been in the game for a long time, are sometimes so focused on going forward that we don't actually look back to make sure what's currently in place has strong foundations.

43:29Chloe: And that's dangerous, you know, for whether it's like desperate to get in the new generation of people watching the game, you then forget about the quality of what you're serving people who are already there. In the same way, your desire to grow the game and increase the amounts that you're paying for players and you've got players on these big salaries, which is great and the greatest stars in your league, etc. you are at risk then of forgetting those that already exist that without them the game isn't going to happen so there needs to be a better balance of ensuring that what is there now is sustainable and sometimes then and we touch on this with some of the the salaries and whatever else those salaries are sometimes a little bit inflated because you do have big names getting big fees which is great but if you've got players who can barely afford to you know live on the salary there's a serious stark imbalance and we were talking about this before we started recording you know it's difficult when leagues are in different positions around the world to to have it more parity and we were saying you know should there be a minimum should there be a base level that is provided for a football player which is in in theory is a nice idea but when leagues are in different phases of their growth it's really hard to implement i i think um what I find saddest about this kind of initial findings is the one financial reasons and like you said there needs to be kind of like a minimum guideline which operates across the board in order to kind of bring up the standard the the sort of the the ability to actually roll that out I think is super tough but also what I do think is the one of the biggest kind of concerns about this report is that we've got over half the players saying they're going to be leaving the sport earlier than they necessarily would have done and I think about kind of the talent pathways and kind of what the the talent is that we're missing out on whether that's the the older players who are kind of coming towards maybe the back end of the careers or mature players who are like you know getting into their 30s and kind of considering a family life or wanting to buy a house or you know just financial stability in a world that is obviously going for a cost of living crisis anyway and then you've got younger players who necessarily won't be able to afford to get into the pathways i mean we've talked about the accessibility piece about you know trying to get to training or trying to get new boots every you know couple of months or trying to get to the matches and the cost of accessing you know playing at the elite level now is absolutely crazy and you kind of almost need a solid family setup to be able to access some of these these things but for me it kind of feels like a really sad thing that there's so many players now who are missing out on opportunities that otherwise would have been given to them because of financial reasons and again we talk about you know maybe how we've seen some of the younger players now you know start to get some of that psychological support how that isn't being rolled out across other federations and even in you know the WSL clubs WSL 2 clubs because for me mental health is like one of the biggest the biggest impacts in the game like I went through like difficulties with my mental health when I was playing like the pressure the demands the kind of performance expectations but also that the financial stress like leans into the cycle like psychological I didn't know whether I was going to be able to afford to to have my career because I was like starting to run out of savings and it was only because I was a lawyer before I stepped into my professional contract that I was able to actually afford to play otherwise i just would have had to turn down my only chance at professional contracts it's interesting you know we've talked before about things like contract lengths how that's kind of that contributes to financial instability and and you know concern over where you're going to be in 12 months time they've said here that the average contract length has risen from 12 months to 19 months and even that's not a very long time you know they're not earning the kind of money where they can put down roots they can buy a house for example a lot of players aren't anyway and you know I was saying this to you beforehand in a job in a traditional type of job as you get older you often aim to move up the corporate ladder and to to go up in position and to go up and pay and to you know maybe get rewards for being in one place for a long time and your salary goes up and you know you the opposite is kind of true with football because as you get older you are probably going to start earning less money and you might be changing clubs where you might not be the key player and so that's a really difficult thing to balance psychologically you want to be trying to make a bit of a cushion or a bit of a nest egg for yourself as you get older which is understandable i can't remember what the stat was but very few clubs are offering kind of any sort of pension plan i think it was like 13 or something like that so you know that's the kind of your 13 yeah receive um uh pension it's it's a psychological shift from like the norm and the traditional way of thinking about being in a job and setting yourself up and you don't really have that it's a sacrifice I would argue for a lot of players to be professional footballers because you're not providing yourself that kind of financial stability and then as you get older you're like well am I skilled to move into a different area and it is great that we're seeing more more organizations contributing to players like maybe doing a degree or a master's or whatever it might be to help them transition but all these things take time you know and you've got players now in the pipeline who need that support 100 % I think I mean I talk about my own kind of experiences and obviously you know the report also said you know average club wages have tripled in the women's games since 2017 which is a positive but also that the average pay is not significantly higher than national minimum wage levels which is a joke so the median monthly salary was£1 ,261 and only 76 % said they were always paid in full and always on time five percent reported delays of over three months to be paid i didn't have issues with delays obviously i was with spurs they had a bit more of a you know financial structure behind them but my so my salary at spurs when i became full-time wsl was 24 000 pounds at that point i was 29 going on to 30 everyone around me was kind of settling down starting to buy houses and i know i was almost quite lucky i'd had a career before that and i had a bit of savings and worst case scenario i've got a family who are very supportive and said that you know whatever happened that absolutely back me but when you've got 24 000 which equates to 2 000 uh before tax after tax you've got about 1 600 in your account and then off the back of that you've then got to pay for your own travel i was paying for for transport i had to sort out my own accommodation on that and also pay for better food because like the quality of the food all the protein powders and things you needed plus the boots plus the gloves plus all like we did have like some occasional like base layered stuff that they'd give us but nothing else really and then we'd had I think we when I first started at Spurs for three months we didn't even have lunches provided to us we had to literally bring in our own lunches and put them in a fridge that arrived I think two months after we'd actually at Barnet so it kind of felt like I was I was fortunate but it wasn't enough to live I couldn't do anything on 1600 pounds a month as a 30 year old I definitely couldn't save for anything I couldn't really go out and I wasn't going out that much anyway but even sustaining myself to go down to the coffee like I was I was really penny pinching at that point and that added to the financial stress that I had it it kind of felt like I I don't really know why I'm doing this because it doesn't make financial sense for me and on top of that I think especially if you're a player who's not being played I was spending my entire we have a really unsociable schedule because your your Saturdays and Sundays are taken up with a training session and then after the training session you can't do anything but rest and then on the Sunday you're going up to play a game or you're traveling really far away to to a game and then you're not seeing friends and family even for all of that it it kind of felt like I'm doing all this and I know you have this amazing opportunity and I don't want to sound uh I'm grateful for the fact that I was able to play at that level but as a 30 year old especially I was thinking it's a lot of sacrifice to be to be making for a club that doesn't really the value that I'm bringing it it doesn't equate and also you turn up to the training ground as well the work I think Hugo Lloris I think was the the men's keeper at the time and i know full well that this guy's on 250 000 pounds a week i tried to push for 30k and they said no 6 000 pounds extra a year i tried to push for so i could live comfortably and i was they said no i think this is it's an important contrast there because i'm sure some may be listening to this and saying there are people in a lot worse positions 100 percent and that's i fully i'm not in the worst case scenario no no i know just given my this conversation is about the football industry and um how players are surviving in said industry in an industry that there is a lot of money in so it's it's all relative to that discussion and i think your contrast of hugo hugo lorise and yourself is the the big point right is that there is so much money in football that is not being properly distributed that it is creating these situations where you know like i overheard someone i'm not going to say where or when talking about football and they were discussing players and how the demand on players bodies has gone up in such a short space of time in terms of fixtures etc and players are picking up these terrible injuries and blah blah blah and their response was well I'm in pain every day too and I don't make as much money as them so suck it up which I just thought was such an interesting like every we should be trying to improve things for everyone not just going well there's worse people so you can suffer do you know that kind of way so when you're looking at like a club like at tottenham for example where you've got you you were trying to negotiate a better cost of living salary and you're coming in at the same time as someone's on 250 000 pound a week that's the disparity we're talking about and if you're expecting players to sacrifice as you say they're kind of late teens 20s early 30s and not be able to provide for themselves beyond that in terms of you know any sort of savings or whatever else that might be it is absolutely worth the discussion because as you say that is what will contribute massively to these mental health issues as well and if you've got this industry who can more than like financially support the mental health side of things they absolutely should be doing that 100 i think there's no there's no real excuse i think in in the wsl maybe especially obviously that this the report goes across all you know there's a lot of federations that are involved in a lot of different um situations in the wsl a lot less sort of financially secure situations than the WSL clubs but yeah it just it's kind of not triggering but it's just like it's annoying I mean the issues I'm talking about were six years ago six seven years ago when I was negotiating my contract and to still be in a situation where the situation is slightly improved but nowhere near the place that it should be in given where women's football is starting to go well the contract length is the great example of that yeah it's gone up on average by seven months in the space of nine years like that's that's still not like a long-term kind of and i know less than a month a year is crazy there's not a lot of long-term contracts i appreciate that but you know if the contracts are longer you've got a little bit more stability a team will have to buy you out there's more financial incentive involved in having a player nailed down for a longer contract because you'll get money from another club and i guess that kind of side of the women's game hasn't evolved a lot yet um but yeah i just think that's a great way to kind of show that the slow growth process if you like um or improvements if you like um in nine years it's a seven month change but i think that's the thing that we talked about it maybe comes full circle now and saying like well how do we get to a situation where progress happens much quicker and that is essentially from like the minimum requirements being raised across all the federations how that is actually played out it's a tough one.

54:44Chloe: The progress is matched, is in contrast with the growth of the game and the growth is, I don't want to say unprecedented but the growth if you compare it to any other growth industry or new business is huge, is super quick. Expecting progress off the pitch to grow at the same speed is not really feasible if you know what I mean. That's a really difficult thing to sustain and maintain the pace of the growth of the actual game and that's what I mean about our focuses so much in getting bigger better faster that the areas that need to improve with it take longer to improve and we sometimes just forget that it's so frustrating oh yeah it's so frustrating um yeah how annoying that's something we'll be talking about i'm sure again in the future well that's the thing i thought it's going to be another fief pro report in four years time we'll come back on the pod you'll be 45 by then and that was like such an unnecessary addition exactly the same issues um can you go back to vietnam i was still doing the pod in vietnam don't think you're getting rid of me that easily also i'd just like to say i won't be 45 in four years time i'll be 42 she does protest too much um thank you so much for listening to this episode of up front find us on instagram and xdash twitter i'm at morgy underscore 89 rach is at girls of the ball and we are at up front underscore pod you can also find us on youtube at up front pod see you next week.

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