Arsenal triumph against Spurs and Man United leave it late to end Man City's run!

0:00Rachel: Welcome to Upfront, I'm Chloe Morgan. And I'm Rachel O'Sullivan. It's derby time everyone. Arsenal triumphed over Tottenham, they really bloody needed that. And Man United got themselves a point with a last minute equaliser against a triumphant city. Plus we're keeping an eye on what's across the pond where there's been a big U-turn in the NWSL. The Rodman rule is no more and we will do our absolute best to try and work through it without our women's football statistical analysis expert, Sophie Downey.

0:37Rachel: Right, mate, what is your moment of the weekend? It's a great question, Chloe. You never prepare for it. Every single week, you sat there, sipping your coffee abroad with your glass cup.

0:47Chloe: You know what's coming. Do you know what I think it might be? I think it's waking up at 7am. No, actually, I woke up at quarter to five yesterday to watch the first game. and then waking up at 7am and having three laptops, two laptops and an iPad on the bed trying to watch all the games. That's my highlight. That's like, yeah, a really enjoyable time.

1:08Rachel: That's what it means to be a real solid women's football journalist, content creator, social media enthusiast. Like you have to be constantly across all the madness that goes on. You had an even crazier weekend because obviously you were a two-year-old's birthday party in the midst of trying to catch up with what has been going on. So credit to you, mate. I mean, there's a lovely picture of Rachel doing the rounds at a ball pit. You can just about see her head. It looks like one of the balls. It's really interesting.

1:32Chloe: I really regretted that. I was really excited about it beforehand. Just to clarify, one nephew was two, one was four. So the four-year-old was the ball. Maybe that should be my highlight, sitting in a really loud room full of screaming children with an iPhone hidden on the chair, trying to watch the Manchester Derby without anybody noticing. Yeah, I thought the ball pool would be a lot more fun than it actually was. Kind of gross and stinky. They do smell, Chloe. that was my first thought I was like why does the ball fall swell because they're full of like sticky

1:59Rachel: kids fingers and like you see their snotty faces as they jump in and you're like oh god this is horrendous so yeah lovely lovely time I will say their birthday cakes over here are a different level I'd love some thank you for the next episode yeah no seriously it's like sugar

2:16Chloe: on sugar on sugar it's perfect

2:21Rachel: my moment of the weekend I'm going to make it it's a bit of a personal one this weekend end actually it was we talked a little bit about the legacy numbers um that spurs decided to give out to the women's players which is a really lovely thing that chris powerhouse of the spurs lily whites it was a campaign that she'd worked with spurs to kind of put this thing together it meant a lot to all of us but we were at the spurs stadium just before the north london derby and it was 82 of the previous spurs players were picking up their legacy numbers uh it was from broxbourne ladies back in the day before it was allowed to affiliate itself with spurs you know there were players there that I'd never spoken to in my entire life you know players who were in their sort of 60s 70s kind of um yeah and it was a real kind of moment of like everyone had kind of helped the journey get to this point and then you kind of go out and then you know you see spurs obviously it wasn't a game that ended particularly well for them but it's like you see the progress of you know being at the stadium being where they are with Martin Ho um and it kind of just uh it made you feel like a sense of oh I knew my place in history and what we'd all contributed so it was really lovely to kind of meet these people as well so yeah we had a little moment walking out into the pitch as well with our little scrolls like harry potter vibes it was um yeah it's really really cute it was it was absolutely shocking actually it was shitting it down the entire time um which which wasn't great but they did don't rain on my parade genuinely they did it did rain on my fucking parade um but then yeah i had my whole family there and then went to the bricklayer's arms for a piss up with the with the gang afterwards so yeah it was super lovely so that

3:49Chloe: sounds really different to what I did so and you know very different vibes 100 different vibes

3:54Rachel: there yeah I won't be going to any kids birthdays anytime soon it kind of it makes me re-evaluate my life and what I want out of it to be honest I also think the choices I've made in my life

4:03Chloe: um are really good and I've not made the wrong ones yeah you're so glad I don't have to do this

4:08Rachel: regularly right let's get stuck in to Spurs Arsenal Arsenal won what was a must-win game for them after their fortunes over the past few weeks they've moved up to six in the table which feels like a slightly more respectable position to define themselves in so this game made it 16 wins from 22 games for Arsenal against Spurs which is obviously a great track record but I think going into this game no one really knew what to expect because Arsenal have had a bad run of form Spurs have had two absolutely catastrophic games where there's been goals galore against them and they come into this game and it felt like quite a good North London derby where it felt quite evenly matched and you didn't really know which way it was gonna really go and then 30 minutes in you've then got Tamberg stepping up to the plate this incredible header but it kind of felt like I mean I think to me it felt like Spurs just had the upper edge because I feel like the the chance that Tamberg had had come off the back of uh like Plova and I was like oh my god is Arsenal going to kind of run into these issues again where one particular pass kind of exposed their entire back line you already ended up in a one-v-one situation where you've got Leo Williamson struggling to contain Pulova to get reinforcements back and I was like how is this happening again we cannot keep speaking about this on the pod was my main thought and then you've got this awesome corner from Pulova and then I think it was Ginny Flassie on the on the commentary when I was kind of looking back over the game afterwards and she was kind of saying it was Spurs who were the more hungry team in that moment.

5:42Rachel: It was like, Tamburg had come through, I think it was about two or three bodies. Three, Chloe. Three bodies rising up against her, sort of trying to body her off the ball, trying to knock her off balance. And she still managed to get the header away. So in that moment, I was thinking, it felt evenly matched. This chance has really exposed Arsenal's weaknesses again. Is it going to be a runaway train for Spurs? But what did you make in the first 15 minutes, Rach? Because it, yeah, it was an interesting one to watch unfold.

6:08Chloe: I never thought it was going to be a runaway train. for either team, if I'm honest. When we were kind of briefly talking about this last week, we were talking about a team who couldn't seem to defend versus a team who couldn't seem to score, which was never going to lead to a high-scoring match, I didn't think. I agree that I thought Spurs settled into the game quicker than Arsenal. Arsenal looked nervous. Just in terms of being sloppy in possession and sloppy passes, and I think that's what led to that one-on-one chance was a sloppy pass. Spurs were always going to be a difficult team for Arsenal because they are a good team, first of all.

6:39Chloe: We've seen they've been playing well. They're dangerous in the counter-attack, certainly. You know, when their midfield and forward line come bearing down on you, they are very quick to transition. And Arsenal are a team that have been struggling with managing those transitions. And you couldn't play that kind of dangerous football where pretty much everyone's camped in the opposition half against a team like Spurs. And I think Spurs knew they could potentially expose that. You know, one side of me is delighted for Katinka Tambor to score that goal. A lifelong fan. Sophia did a great interview with her before.

7:09Chloe: Don't you love when an interview matches up and then that player does something that weekend? You're like, this is great timing. They're all aligns. She'd been speaking about coming into this North London derby and she was like, Tottenham fans just fucking hate Arsenal and that's just the way it is. And Arsenal fans hate Tottenham. She really understands this fixture. She was really buzzing to play at the Tottenham Stadium. So to see her get the goal, you're just like, yes, Tinka. Such a good goal. but then the other side of me is like how in god's green earth are three players around Katinka Tamberg and she's still able to get up and head the ball in with arguably with ease I was just like that kind of summed up Arsenal a bit where there was it was almost like a half-arsed attempt to defend do you know that kind of way like you say they jumped with her it felt like they kind of maybe did a bit of a bounce like they didn't even feel like there was a any real drive and and then part of me wondered will that be the moment where they they looked so kind of deflated so the fact that they were able to get a goal back so quickly I think suddenly I was like okay this could be quite an interesting game um but we're going to get into the tactics a bit more and maybe look at why Spurs weren't as say potent as they have been in previous games and I don't

8:14Rachel: want to get ahead of myself Chloe oh nice I mean that that's usually my job trying to trying to rein you in essentially because I sort of look through the running order I'm like we're going to be bringing up this point I'm kind of giving Rachel a little bit of a nudge in the studio shut the fuck up you can get your point you can get your point out in a second just give me a minute now you've gone 17 point like 17 paragraphs down the running order and I'm gonna have to write that one down it's just chaos but today thank you for for for straight that you've been exercising for this pod um but like you said it did feel like oh god that first goal it really felt like it exposed Arsenal again and then I think from that moment onwards I was like oh gosh like is this gonna be a bit of a runaway train you didn't think so but I had serious concerns and then obviously Georgia Stanway steps up spends absolutely no time at all in celebrating her equaliser rushing into the goal straight away to get that ball but it kind of felt like okay cool right game on and the whole chance then came from this kind of like almost like a fire had been lit in Arsenal in a way because you know Alessia Russo as well I've got to give her absolute credit because it kind of felt like a situation that she probably wasn't going to get much out of quite a limited chance and then gets that cut back out.

9:22Rachel: The Stamway goal, I mean, Christ. I just felt so sorry. As a keeper, I felt so sorry for Kopp because she got a solid hand to it as well. And I thought, just about tipped it onto the post, but it just, it like dipped underneath and I was absolutely gutted. But then it felt like actually, yeah, cool. No, we've got a real North London derby on our hand and Arsenal still have their heads in the game because we've seen their heads drop when they shouldn't.

9:45Chloe: That goal though came from moving the ball quickly. It came from, we've seen this kind of link up between Russo and Stanway for England. And I don't think it's being seen enough for Arsenal where Russo gets high, receives the ball and Stanway's following her in essentially and is available and higher up the pitch and ready for the shot. First time strike, nearly outside the box, quick football, all the things where when Arsenal do it, look good, look more effective when they play the ball quickly, when they don't hesitate, when they don't take that extra touch. And that's exactly where that goal came from.

10:13Chloe: It's exactly where the Olivia Smith goal came from last weekend. And they need to do more of that. And I think that's probably the frustration for Arsenal fans is you'll have these pockets of moments where you're like, oh, that was really good. We're really effective when we do this. And then they just don't really do it again, which is frustrating because you would think getting that goal back so quickly would lift them and maybe they'd go in and get another one. But it didn't. The game kind of remained cagey for the rest of the half. I think, I thought, you know, Renee obviously had made some changes to the starting lineup.

10:42A lot of fans have been calling for that. Taylor Hines came in. I thought she had a good game. Cade and Ford, I thought, had a really good game, provided a little bit more of that defensiveness for Arsenal, which sometimes maybe they lack, particularly in those transitional moments. So I thought she had a really good game and I've been critical of Ford in the past. And I thought that she had a very, very good game. So I think Steph Cattley being back in as well, you know, you start to look at games where Arsenal maybe get more out of a game than they don't. Cattley's often in that back line. Maybe it's, you know, I'm not suggesting that Arsenal's back line are superb or anything like that, but maybe there's just a little bit more confidence between the relationships that are there.

11:15So, you know, yeah, it was interesting. There was lots of little narratives to pull out of the game. And I do think that Stanway one is kind of an example of what Arsenal just need to do more of.

11:26Rachel: No, 100%. And I think, I mean, you mentioned a couple of game changers in those moments. And I think, you know, Ford for me as well, that was my next point, to be honest. It was kind of, I think I've been quite highly critical of her. I don't feel like when she comes on, that she makes that much of an impact in a game. And she's often quite silent. And I think sometimes, you know, where you watch the highlights. So I've kind of tried to make an effort to either go to the game or try and watch the entire thing, at least for 45 minutes if I'm not able to attend it, just so I can see kind of like what she's been up to.

11:52And it still doesn't feel like there's, I don't know, she's not present.

11:55Rachel: I feel like she's just kind of waiting in the wings for something to happen. But in this particular game, I really felt like there was a step up. And, you know, even the chance where it was the Russo chance with Lisa Copps, absolutely stellar, ridiculous. That would have been my mom to the weekend. Yeah, I mean, it was... If we weren't talking about it. Goalkeeping gold. So if you haven't seen it already, Ford picks up the ball, delivers this great cut back obviously Alessio Russo takes it strikes it first time you think it's going in there's absolutely not a hell in charge but like it's just one of those kind of like naturally instinctive saves she's put her hand up and it's prevented it and tipped it around the post but I think that's the kind of like momentum and shift that I kind of and the impact that I was seeing Ford having and there was a weird thing actually because it felt like um where Ford was operating just on the far side you had like 4 ,000 Arsenal fans in red like the stadium silent, quite silent on the Spurs side of things but like the Arsenal away contingent were bringing the absolute vibes and it felt like actually when Arsenal were getting into attacking positions actually the crowd was behind them and I felt like they were energised by the crowd and when that goal was scored it felt like they were the first people that they were going over to kind of draw and see to kind of like drum up that support.

13:03Chloe: I was going to say just about on the fans that you're saying there it was the most fans Arsenal brought to an away WSL game in two and a half years And I think there's been a real, you know, obviously the players have been frustrated with their own performances and they want to be doing better. But it feels like there's a real understanding around the frustration of the fans. And I think after disappointing games and frustrating games, both manager and players have made a real effort to kind of engage with the fans. So the fact that Arsenal are able to bring, you know, the most fans, I know it's a North London derby, but your team haven't been playing well.

13:38Chloe: You're understandably frustrated. You might, you know, think this game might be a difficult one to watch in person. To be able to still do that. There were boos last week. Yeah. And I think they had a moment with the fans, I believe, pre-match as well. I just, yeah, I think that's really important for them. And you've heard me complain about players not celebrating enough. My God, the celebrations, particularly after the Russo penalty, straight over to the fans, I think was really important. And I know everyone's going, is this the moment? Is this the thing for Arsenal? Is this what they needed?

14:04Are we going to see them? I don't want to get ahead of myself. I'd like to see them get a few more wins under their belt before we can determine that. But I do think mentality wise and with the fans relationship, I think that that was really important for them. And I think to recognize the fans and their attendance and their support and stuff like that was really important.

14:20Rachel: Definitely. And I think it was just there was a power in the fan voice, I think, for Arsenal and the Gunners. Like the cohort of red and a sea of kind of like a mixed match of like the Spurs fans. And it was just the chants were happening. The singing was happening. every time there was a near miss like the um when Lisa Bourne hit the the post again the oohs the ahs the kind of like the drama the excitement if there was a foul like they were shouting for it and I think yeah like you said like after Russo scored um the penalty after the handball which we'll talk about in a second first thing she does go straight over to them like big arms like everyone's crowding around like this is a moment that they're all enjoying together so hopefully this will kind of build this like collectiveness and a bit of a thank you to the fans for kind of bearing with them through this this quite challenging quite hard time for both player and fan and manager not to overdo it and to go back on a point we've already discussed but I did I

15:14Chloe: just another shout out for that Lisa Copp save because you know if you'd paused the the frame of the television which is what I was watching or the laptop as Russo goes to take that like you know you're just like that's an Arsenal goal it was one of those you know when you can see a goal coming from like three or four passes out you just kind of you can feel that coming that was one of them and the reactions and reflect that you know reaction from her was unbelievable I've been a little bit critical of her at times I think she's been a little bit hesitant at times and I think she's been a little bit nervous sometimes particularly when you've had those games where they've been high scoring and gets in your head and you know we've seen it with keepers where they just take an extra touch or an extra second and I've been a little bit critical of her in the past but I think this is a really good game for her and I thought the way she celebrated and the players celebrated with her after that that's a goalkeeper's goal if you like like that's the kind of essentially a moment for you when you do something like that as a goalkeeper it's the equivalent of scoring a goal I think.

16:10Rachel: Yeah 100 % and then but then the most annoying thing about that is that you've got 12 minutes later then you've got a penalty conceded and this is quite a controversial one so obviously if you have a look back over it it's Ella Morris's handball that the ball's been struck against her hand in the box. Doesn't really have any chance to kind of move her hand awkwardly out of the way. It's not in a kind of natural position, but it's her own player who struck the ball. But the new rules for the 26-27 season state that there is no handball if the ball is played by a teammate. So surely, obviously, there's been questions asked now whether this should have stood.

16:43Rachel: Martin Ho said after the game, the referee has got worse than it was last season. So he's been, you know, fairly bold in his accusations about this particular faux pas foot from the referees but it did feel it was obviously a game-changing moment because it could have been a draw and in fact this decision ended up with Arsenal getting these three points and I don't know what kind of thing that's going to trigger with Arsenal camp but I mean Rach what was your thoughts on that because that's um that's a tough one to take when it's

17:08Chloe: so against the WSL rule I can understand the frustration of Martin Ho because you know we've been critical of referees in previous seasons and and calling for more investment and there is more investment going into referees I think what's difficult is when more rules come in and you don't feel like we're at that level yet where the current rules are properly being applied so now you're adding more in I'll be honest I didn't realize that that rule had changed so when that happened and part of me is like I don't know why we're debating this because it is a black and white rule it seems if the ball is kicked off your own defending player and it hits your hand it's not a it's not a penalty at the end and yet here we are having this debate and to be honest you know all the players called for it so they obviously the rule's not in their heads none of the commentators commentating on the game talked about it because it's not something that's clearly like sat in their brains either this new rule but you know i appreciate that it was close if we are going to debate it i appreciate that it was close the clearance but what in god's name is ella morris hand doing up here like this is my issue was that the hand is in a completely unnatural position so you can see it from both ways it was down by her side totally like yeah absolutely but and you know when they were debating it on bbc and they were saying well you know she's very close and it's difficult to get out of the way yeah sure still don't know why your hand's up here that's still an unnatural position for your hand to be in as a player so you know if the rule wasn't didn't exist and it was previous rules you could get into the nitty-gritty of that debate but given it's if it comes off your own player it's not a handball yeah and it's and I totally get the frustrations because it should be there in black and white but it's so funny to watch it happen in real time because if that rule didn't exist it's the most obvious handball and it was almost like the referee was like oh I've seen this it's clear and friggin obvious and we obviously forgot about the new rule

18:49Rachel: I mean the rule kind of makes sense because there was no advantage that she had from trying to almost impede the player who was trying to booth the ball away as a clearance if anything

18:57Chloe: in that instance but generally yeah it could I don't like it I think that's mad like what is there intention I mean maybe I need to dig more into the rule is there intentionality behind it like if a player on purpose sticks their hand out I don't pushes the ball away well like I still it's a handball I think I appreciate that it can be difficult to if it's close or you're trying to decide I guess that's what VAR is there for I for me I don't love it because it's a handball it's a handball you're not supposed to handle the ball it's the worst place to handle the ball um and if you're a player with your hands in the bleeding air like it should be a penalty so it's another rule where you're like okay don't love it but if we're going to implement it implement it and don't get me started on the new rules my god the goalkeeper kicks it's not eight seconds why is anyway don't don't even that's another we don't have time we don't have time in this pod

19:44Rachel: okay but we will cover it um but I do think I suppose silver lining to this is that now because that's happened and fairly early on in the season at least people will be more alive to that happening and referees will hopefully be sort of you know there'll be a honing in I suppose of training about this particular rule that again I was barely even aware of so yeah yeah and it obviously I don't think the referee was aware of in this instance so yeah I mean obviously when we spoke to the the WSL at the start of the season it sounds like they're trying to do some work in kind of trying to ease the communication across the clubs about these various rule changes just to make sure that players and clubs have access to the rule changes as they happen because there does seem to be a lot of them and I'm struggling to keep track so god knows help the referees who also have other jobs and other things outside of their lives on the pitch with that one it's a real

20:32Chloe: reaction you could see like that's what I mean like it's a reaction as a referee you're like oh that is a blatant tampon immediately everyone's gone you know it's one of those like almost reaction things but I guess you do as a referee have you have the luxury I suppose of maybe a fourth official in your ear going oh no the rule is if it comes up you're allowed and you're allowed to say oh actually no okay no that's not you can change that decision you know you do have the the freedom to do that but it just felt like such a reactionary kind of like oh my god clear and obvious blatant whistle goal quickly penalty you know so yeah oh we've been mitigating this for a

21:06Rachel: while 100 um slightly sad news uh it feels like there was a little bit of um obviously there was a bit of injury time after the game so we had morris uh replacing alice sombath who it looked like suffered quite a serious injury it didn't look good at all fairly early in the second half she had to be stretched off it was her first start of the season no news yet about sort of what may or may not have happened and how she's sort of progressing but from all of us at the upfront team obviously wishing her all the best and hoping that it's not as serious as it first thought but yeah not ideal for her and especially first start of the season that's just absolutely killer so yeah love and thoughts we've had a really good question in a good tactics question from Spurs fan JR on YouTube.

21:54He says, bear with me

21:56Rachel: because it's a paragraph on this one. I have a long running theory that the midfield profiles we have at Spurs aren't able to allow the best mix of control, defence and offence in games requiring the highest quality of play. Against Arsenal, we sacrificed our offence to not have another embarrassing result and that kept the game closer. The attackers just don't seem to have the quality to take advantage of finer margins, but the midfield balance specifically looks questionable. What do you think? that's a chunky one to get stuck into um it is a really good question but it kind of feels like i mean there's an expectation i think when you're looking at who your opposition is every weekend you're gonna set up training you're gonna set up your game to try and counteract the the qualities that the opposition have and that does mean you know sometimes going a bit more conservatively sometimes going a bit more attacking and sometimes just trying to strike that balance and maybe just trying to catch on the counter or whatever it is but I think that the fact that this game was so even and there were a lot of real good progressive qualities that I saw in Spurs that haven't been there for the past two games and I think for Spurs they've just wanted to actually shrug the dust off from those 12 conceded goals and actually look at kind of how they can stop that that leakiness from you know unfolding and unraveling and becoming a bit more of a problem throughout the season and actually take the game to ask them in points and I feel like actually they did strike that balance quite well because defensively they were quite resolute and on the attack I felt like they were quite potent not loads of there wasn't loads loads of chances for them but I think they didn't do a bad job so I felt like the balance wasn't bad.

23:30Rachel: Rach what are your thoughts?

23:31Chloe: I think I can understand the frustration because they lacked creativity against Arsenal and I think a lot of that is down to the fact that as he has rightly pointed out you know Sumanin came in And Gobsett went out wide and that sacrificed Holt in the starting lineup. And I would say Holt is one of their most creative players. And, you know, even when you look back at the London City Lionesses game and the Chelsea game, we were talking about this before we recorded, if you weren't looking at the scoreline and you only looked at the data, it looked a closer game because Tottenham have created so many chances in those games.

24:03Chloe: I'd slightly disagree on the point about the attackers lacking quality. I think they can be incredibly creative, as I've said. and I think they're a young team who are building relationships which is going to take a little bit of time and require a little bit of confidence and I think the fact that they create so much proves that they are getting themselves in the right positions so tactically it's working in that respect as he touched on it's those finer margins in terms of putting the ball in the back of the net Chelsea might create five chances and get one goal Tottenham might need ten chances to get that one goal they're a young and growing team and I can appreciate the frustration but to expect them to be at those absolute perfect fine margin details so early on in Martin Ho's tenure is maybe expecting a little bit too much.

24:49The midfield question, I think you're absolutely right. Very much depends on the team you're playing. Every team wants to try and get the balance of attacking and defensive qualities within their midfield right.

24:59Chloe: I actually think Martin got it spot on because he did manage to shore up Arsenal and, you know, not concede so many goals. and one of them was a penalty. So, you know, in that respect, I get it. But that's what managers have to do tactically. You're not going to go out after conceding 12 goals and go, yeah, let's go all guns blazing. And I think, like, even the Chelsea game, right? I think he got his tactics pretty spot on for that first half. The damage was done in, what, the space in nine minutes? You're not going to be able to make changes to kind of readjust that quick enough to fix that problem.

25:33Chloe: So, you know, give it time. That's what I'll say. I think they're tweaking, you know, they're bringing in new players. I think they've got a good balance of players. And I think the fact that they can have a defence that can be more defensive, a midfield, sorry, that can be more defensive or more attacking is really exciting. And when I get it right, it goes really right. So, yeah, just give it time.

25:54Rachel: Yeah, 100%. And I think some of the 12 goals that we can see as well were just kind of like personally quite uncharacteristic, like individual errors, rather than it being sort of like a massive structural thing. so yeah I think it's a good question but yeah I think it does feel like you said Rach kind of a little bit of like you've got to tweak as your position kind of comes up it's not one of those like okay we've got a static and that's how we're just going to play we're doing a 4-4-2 this whole season doesn't matter what happens and that and that's it so so yeah but keep on coming with your tactics questions a really nice little little debate to throw in there obviously this result 2-1 win for Arsenal at the Spurs Stadium which is obviously an additional kick in the teeth massively important result for Arsenal who had been winless in five before this Rene Sleggers who has obviously had the most torrid time over the start of the season in terms of questions being asked over her leadership and what she's getting from the team and why the team are doing so badly, it was actually a moment for her I suppose to be able to talk positively and to maybe breathe a sigh of relief actually about this like, well initial change of fortunes, but we'll obviously see how this plays out, but she said after the game, it's a positive and it's a reward for the team but we also need to back this one up with the next couple of games there are some really good things for us to take from the pitch today and we want to be even more consistent with certain things but this was a really good step um obviously now it kind of I think this result is a weird one because there's such a tight gap in this kind of mid middle section of teams this result kind of putting you you know going up four places and now you're only two points away from fourth place it's kind of um it's aesthetically a very pleasing result to go into next week with So, yeah, I think like Rene said, it's just one of those things of absolutely amazing.

27:35Rachel: But we really have to back this up because if we go back to a loss next week, it's not good.

27:41Chloe: I think what would have been really interesting is if London City had held on. And because obviously that game went to a draw and I think Liverpool deserved a draw out of that game. But had London City won that game, the gap between third and fourth would have been seven points, which is, that's a chunk. You know, when you talk about catching up back and trying to get back into the top of the table, if that gap had widened even more, you know, yeah, you might be a few points off fourth. But if that gap had broadened, you would have been like, my God, we need a lot of other stuff to happen if we're going to get back up in there.

28:14Chloe: You know, so I think there's some really interesting results kind of across the league this weekend. And that draw, I think, for teams like your Tottenham's, your Man Utd's, your Arsenal's, who are hopefully going to try and they're trying to get back into those Champions League spots, was a really important one, I think.

28:31Rachel: Well, let's talk about the draw after this. United leaving it very late against City and opening up the table a little bit.

28:53Rachel: Oh Rach, United City 1-1. United's Elizabeth Turland scored a last minute equaliser to end Man City's winning start to the season. They are not as invincible as we thought they might be. We've found a slight weakness, a slight chink in the armour that has I think created a little bit of hope for title dreams for other teams so that's been quite a nice welcome bit of news this weekend um united are now eight games unbeaten in all competitions after a difficult start to the season um this kind of feels like uh a united that is kind of you know initially i felt like they were they were getting a lot of heat because of the way they started the season now it feels like they're starting to get this kind of like more positive momentum this fire in their bellies everyone's all of a sudden changing their opinions about eva olid and what she's able to achieve for the teams.

29:47Rachel: It's crazy how fickle fans can be. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Go on.

29:52Chloe: This has annoyed me a little bit because... Oh God, what have I done? Not you, not you. Man United started the season really badly and the media and fans were rightly critical because they started the season really badly and now they're starting to improve and we're looking at where they're improving and why they're improving and we're positive about it. Like that is literally how analysis works. And it's so funny to see people like doing the whole kind of like, I saw you, you were at the beginning of the season. Yeah, you said it wasn't going well. And it was like, well, yeah, it wasn't. Like if we'd sat there and gone, it's fine.

30:26Yeah, no, you got battered by Chelsea and lost to the City of the Lionesses. That's totally expected. Don't worry about it. We'd have been criticized. So literally the job is to go, why isn't this working? What's going wrong? Has Ava Ola maybe started the season? Was she a little bit naive in the way she started? Yes. Has she improved since it started? yes and that's really good and like I really I think she comes across really well in the media I think she's really upfront she's really frank in her analysis which I think is really good and I think you know I really like listening to her talk and even listening to her after the game she was so pleased and you know she touched on it like the fight that she saw in the team she was really pleased about and look this happens it happened to Carla Ward when she started at Ireland right she came in Ireland did not play well they got pretty badly hammered and everyone's going oh oh God, was this the right appointment?

31:12The natural kind of discussion that happens when a new manager comes in. She had time, figured out how to get that balance

31:18Chloe: out of what she wants and what the team can deliver. She's obviously had a bit more time with them from even just a psychological perspective and what she's trying to achieve and getting the team back to where she wants to be. And that takes a little bit of time. So it's fine that she was critiqued and the team was critiqued at the beginning of the season. And it's fine now that we can celebrate that Manchester United are playing better football. That's literally what we're supposed to do.

31:41Rachel: I was definitely one of those to be honest I think I mean we kind of talked about Man United and how horribly they were doing because it kind of felt like and Eva obviously she had minutes to prepare for the season don't forget my name yeah I'm literal minutes to start the season try and put the team back together after what was a very turbulent you know summer transfer window where they didn't really have a lot of buying power and you know everything seemed to be sort of shrouded in this horrible grey cloud of the club don't give a crap and you know whatever and then it's kind of like she's had to pull the team out of the dust to try and get into this situation I mean it does feel like a completely different team to the team that you know lost 5-0 to Chelsea in the second week of the season and like you said Rach it does feel like she's starting to get I don't know a little bit of her um her own flair and her own style of play into United and dare I say it, it feels like the players are even starting to enjoy themselves.

32:37Rachel: Like when they're getting on the ball, that just feels like they want to keep the ball. It's not a sense of like, oh Christ, here we go again. That kind of feels like there's a bit more like, I don't know, like flair and a bit of like personality that I'm starting to see come through again, especially with some of the key figures as well. I mean, it's an amazing kind of run of results and I think positivity kind of breathes positivity. So it's exciting now to see like how far Man United are going to take this.

33:01Chloe: I think they've really benefited from being in the League Cup. And, you know, we've touched on it there, was it, eight games in all competitions. And yes, they've been playing WSL2 teams, but I just think it's really helped them in terms of getting a better understanding of what she wants, her getting a better understanding of what the team needs, and players just being able to find their rhythm, find their form, find their enjoyment. You know, you look at Jess Park is flying at the moment. You know, Medina, I won't stop banging on about her. I think she was an unbelievable signing for them. And like you touched on there, they're starting to enjoy it more.

33:34And that was a big thing, I think, that concerned us at the beginning of the season, was just the body language and the players that were out of form. Some of the issues were just players being kind of tepid in possession and slow to release the ball and sloppy passing. That's not always tactics. Some of that is on the players themselves. So it's allowed the players to kind of, I think, find their feet again, find their enjoyment, build those relationships. and again yeah it's nice they seem to be enjoying themselves and I think that really came across in the game it was a real proper derby weather was shite thought players were going to blow away sometimes the amount of stuff blowing onto the pitch

34:10Chloe: a real kind of gritty evening performance as well it just kind of had everything it had a lot of fight and kind of you know hardcore tackles and etc etc and yeah I think it delivered in that respect and I think for Manchester United from a mentality perspective to be able to stay in the game and get a point out of the game, which I think they deserved. I thought they played really well. Will do wonders for their mentality, I think.

34:35Rachel: It was a crunching derby. And it kind of felt like a real battle of the titans. Like you really didn't know what way the game was going to go. And to me, it did feel like a very fair result. But even when you look at the stats, so you've got the shots on target and possessions and the two sides pretty much like nothing between them. So United, five shots on target. City had six. Possession-wise, 50.4%. to United and then 50 sorry 49.6 % to City so literal 0.01 % in it which is crazy but I think for me the tactic that I noticed most that I think kind of kept the sides at bay it did kind of feel like it was this battle between kind of like a mile atizier and bunny shore type situation because it kind of felt like a big strategy point was just trying to stop bunny shore doing bunny shore things and I did feel like you got to half time and you did sense that there was a kind of um I don't know a very rare frustrated man city who were kind of getting back into the changing room even Andre looked a bit kind of um I don't know a bit rattled I think I mean did you feel that or did you feel like oh it's just a city just um you know quietly going about their business and whilst there was some frustration she they always knew that they would sort of at least come up with a

35:50Chloe: with a goal I think there was some frustrations because I think they started the better side and I think they were frustrated that they didn't get something out of their start for United because I feel like they weathered that a little bit they grew into the game more they created chances and again they could have scored some goals as well to be fair to them but yeah there was a little bit of that maybe just that things weren't really working as well as they might have been you know I think some fouls maybe weren't called I do I mean I know there's been a bit of a discourse around this about this on online but it's it there's a balance of some that the problem is I think when you've got a player like a Buddy Shaw it's similar with Olivia Smith they you know I'd actually put Oceano Earthray in there as well who get fouled more regularly than other players and they do I do think they need a little bit more protection but the other side of me is you know not all of them are fouls and some of them are players kind of looking for those fouls and when you allow actual fouls to go people start to think that the ones that aren't really fouled are also fouled.

36:49And then it just kind of builds a bigger picture of things that are being let go. So that's all I will say. I do think it was a bit crunchy at times. And I think maybe the referee could have handled it a little bit better if I'm being totally honest. But the thing about Bunny Shaw is for me, even when she looks frustrated, I still think she's going to score. And I think she still thinks she's going to score. I think the problem was she maybe wasn't getting as much service as she would have liked and getting as many opportunities as she would have liked because generally she does create and does get a lot of opportunities.

37:16needs and she knows she's going to get one of them and we've talked about her conversion rate before so when she's not getting as many touches in the box and not getting off as many opportunities you start to think okay if they're not coming am I going to get that goal that I so know I can score but I maybe need five or six real chances before I actually get it so but maybe I think it's crazy

37:34Rachel: though Man United did such a good job defensively that I read that she failed to have any shot of any kind or even a touch inside United's box like that is such a a clear-cut strategy and so actually enact that there's one thing saying this is what we're going to go out and do there's another thing actually doing it and keeping her at bay for at least half of the game but I think like you said Rach there's always a threat with Bunny Shaw it's like you can go into I mean we've seen her have games where she's not been on the ball or maybe she's you know she's been on the ball she's had a couple of good chances but she's skied them or they're just like hit the post and gone the wrong way but it always feels like Bunny Shaw is a threat and that she's going to come out and do something ridiculous and then and then she does so then she goes on scores her eighth goal of the season she's currently averaging a goal every 71 minutes this is like i this is crazy obviously now do the next start now do the next start oh go on you can do the next start a hundred games

38:32Chloe: WSL games that was her 100th WSL game 91 goals and 19 assists like she's the greatest striker the WSL has had I think

38:43Rachel: by far I think okay

38:45Chloe: look the good WSL has had some bloody good strikers Sam Kerr Vivian Nidema she is up there but I don't want to like yes by far but I don't want to put down other really good strikers that the WSL has had and we are so privileged and lucky to have been covering the game with all of these incredible players but she has got to be just one of the best strikers in the world the most like you know even look we'll get to the United goal but even in that situation and I appreciate she'll look back at that and she was annoyed at herself but she was still the one back there defending doing defensive work you know she's the one that will cut balls back and fine people she just offers so much of a threat and we often talk just about her goals but which is understandable because she scores so many of them but she's so well rounded I think and even the way she took her goal I do have a bit of an issue with kind of, I thought Dominique Janssen was a bit passive in that situation.

39:36But most players wouldn't really be able to get a quality shot off in that situation. And her ability to do that is phenomenal. And I do think it's so much about self-belief and how much she backs herself is such a big part of it. So, yeah, I just, she's incredible. I don't have enough kind of words and plaudits to say about her, but her numbers really do speak for themselves.

39:58Rachel: else I think that was the crazy thing that I think there was there was she had no right to score that goal because there just wasn't enough space she couldn't have got enough back lift she was kind of off balance because of Dominic Janssen and like the angle of it as well was a bit crazy and then all of a sudden she fires one off and next thing you know it ripples and hits the back of the net and the side netting and obviously keeper has absolutely no chance but like you said work rate completely unmatched so then go up try and defensively you know put in a shift to try and get this clearance she must have been so fuming that turn and then kind of converted that one in

40:26Chloe: because it wasn't a brilliant clearance to be fair and I think it wasn't I think it was it was

40:30Rachel: lofted in so I feel like she was almost kind of trying to get something on it she couldn't get power to kind of header it away because of where she was positioned and I feel like she was boxed in slightly by the defenders so I think she did her best but it's also I mean not to say it's not her job everyone needs to pitch in but it's it's it wasn't her job and she was still there like you said and I think um I mean obviously it's the Ballon d 'Or tonight we're going to find out who's taking away the elusive trophy obviously for the last five years all we've seen is uh bon matty and pateas take it but a lot of people are saying okay well like this year feels very very tight pateas yes 100 obviously up there everything she's done with barca and now coming in and obviously having a great season with london city so far yeah but i don't know that counts

41:10Chloe: it doesn't it but it's kind of like we need to remember recency bias i like a bit of no no actually to be fair i i am gonna i i mean i think alexi will win it but I'm just saying sometimes that happens as well with these awards as people are so like for example Martin Ho won manager of the month I think it was in September great but by the time they got around to announcing it they lost 6-2 to Chelsea and sometimes you end up going my god who voted for this and you're like well no hang on let's think about the period of time that this covers

41:40Rachel: I agree because I was one of those but to me it kind of it does feel like quite evenly matched because you've got two players at the top of their game massive massive goal scorers massive personalities have done wonders for their their respective clubs like domestically Bunny Short obviously the season she had the double with them with Manchester City last season I feel like she's such a presence now and she's so consistent in her ability to kind of take Man City out of you know quite troubling situations if they've gone behind you feel like you can always rely on her and same thing for Alexi Piteas but yeah I think a lot of people are kind of pipping Alexia to win but there's the biggest part of me that just feels I was like, oh, give Bunny her flowers because Christ, it's, yeah, Christ is good.

42:24I think this year, we've had years in the past

42:27Chloe: where there's been, for me, more contenders and someone wins it that maybe shouldn't have, right? Because I think there have been more contenders that maybe doesn't get a look in. This year, I think there's a lot of really good contenders and I think a lot of players have done really good things with their respective teams. You know, you've got to factor in players who are at the Asia Cup as well. Yui Hasegawa, for example. you know sometimes those players maybe go under the radar um I I do think Alexia will win it and if she wins it I think it's deservedly so I don't think it's going to be something where you're like oh of course they've gone with Alexia because it's Alexia I think she's had an unbelievable season and if she wins it like she is very well worthy of winning it but should one of those other players that you've mentioned win it I don't think it would be as controversial if you like as previous years but I do think Pateas is getting her hands on it congratulations to whoever does pick up the

43:16Rachel: award tonight like you said rachel it's going to be very well deserved if it's any of the sort of top three four players in people's minds but i think we do feel like it might be going to spanish hands possibly um just before we head off uh we're going to try and get through a little bit of a it's a complex situation that's had us both a little bit puzzled we've really tried to do our best here to kind of run through what this this recent change is in the nwsl so the controversial high impact player the hip rule introduced to the nwsl in december 2025 and coming into effect in july 2026 is going to be dropped the nwsl and nwsl players association have reached a settlement to remove the restrictive criteria so that any player can now earn the league's highest salaries um so the rule had allowed teams to spend an extra one million dollars above the salary cap in order to sign star players.

44:10Rachel: The categorisation of a star player depended on set criteria and these included metrics which assessed athletes by marketability, minutes played for the US national team, Ballon d 'Or recognition and appearances on media list too. The NWSLPA opposed the rule and filed a grievance with their argument being that this way of classifying players amounted to a violation of federal labour law and the collective bargaining agreement that had been in place. so I don't know if you can remember when it first came about and when it was first brought in there was about 100 players who qualified for this high impact players list including Trinity Rodman who feels like the trigger point for all of this unfolding but it excluded obviously these massive players like Sam Kerr like Kat Macario so the settlement now does away with the eligibility criteria and that was announced on Friday so are you still with me Rach?

45:06Rachel: that's still because yes i'm just about there yeah playing it on the thing now started to feel like a bit of a monologue at this point um starting on the 1st of january 2027 clubs will be able to class any player as a high impact player as long as their salary is at least 12 of the base cap the league will also be able to limit the number of hips at each club um the rule began to be referred as the Rodman rule because of Trinity Rodman's contract saga but now obviously we've kind of had this like complete reversal back again well kind of a an 18 80 to 90 percent reversal of this rule and to try and address some of the issues that that it was created by these other incredible players who you know world-class talent not being part of these high impact player category.

45:56Rachel: It's a hot mess, is what it is.

45:58Chloe: It feels like something that was a bit ham-fisted, and they were trying to, the reason it's called the Rodman rule was because they were trying to keep her in the league. And I just think it was, they got to the solution very quickly without properly liaising with all of the right people, I think. And perhaps players are looking for a better way to get to that end point that is fairer. And I think perhaps the league just kind of shoehorned in something without the proper time and the proper conversations being had so that's probably it's not a new thing to happen in women's football I think sometimes the the downside of it being such a fast-growing sport is that we sometimes are slow to keep up with it in other areas of the game including things like rules and all of that kind of stuff so we often end up having these really ham-fisted um solutions and reactive solutions that maybe uh don't properly address all of the issues and i think that's an example of it

46:58Rachel: mate i couldn't agree more to be honest to be honest there's not really much that i can add to this section it kind of feels like a well let's keep an eye on yeah let's kind of wait and see how it how it all plays out but i am glad that it has at least addressed some of the concerns that it had like there's one thing for sort of like putting your hands up and saying look it was obviously causing quite a lot of anomalies that didn't really make sense for the league and now we've had to think about it we've received the feedback there was a lot of criticism about it and we're willing to hold our hands up and say to some extent let's just knock the thing on the head um but yeah we will we will wait to see what happens off the back of it but it's a very interesting development in the nwsl and i do feel like the wsl is always looking at the nwsl as kind of like a hmm that's interesting there's a bit of a test case for some of the things that they may or may not want to do and the sort of creativity that we sometimes see we don't need

47:43Chloe: We need to do everything the NWSL does, okay?

47:46Rachel: You can learn from it, but we don't need to copy-paste. And we'll see that rumour dropping probably just before Christmas, so can't wait. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Upfront. You can find us on Instagram and X slash Twitter. I'm at morgy underscore 89. Rach is at girls in the ball, and we are at upfront underscore pod. You can also find us on YouTube at upfront pod. See you next week.

48:24Upfront is a Stack production and part of the Acast Creator Network.

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