England breeze past Greece, Ireland make it a dozen against Kazakhstan and we do a deep-dive on Arsenal’s troubles (feat. Emily Keogh)

0:00Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

0:37You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality, licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions, nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. And you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

1:21Welcome to Upfront. I'm Rachel O'Sullivan. And I'm Emily Keogh. England are through to the final round of World Cup qualification after sticking five past Greece. And Ireland booked their place too as they scored a whopping 12 goals across the two legs. We'll be breaking down both of those results today. Plus, as the WSL returns, we're asking if Arsenal can reset their torrid start to the season.

1:48Right, guys, you may have already clocked it from The Voice and from the intro that Chloe is still sunning herself in Vietnam. I'm not sure if she's actually coming back. We do need to check into that. So this week I am joined by a very special guest. It's ESPN's women's football writer, Emily Keogh. Welcome. Thank you. I'm excited. Very strange for me to be in the kind of driver's seat. It's normally Chloe. Literally and figuratively. It's very strange. But I feel like I'm in safe hands having you in the studio with me. yeah I mean this goes back to like 2023-24 when we used to do podcasts and shows together yeah quite nice it's lovely isn't it yeah um but yeah so let bear with me guys as I figure this out I don't know I haven't decided yet if I'm going to do Chloe's big see you next week but stay listening and uh you can find out what a way Bruno to make sure they listen right to the end little easter egg there um okay let's chat football uh I went out to Crete amazing uh which was lovely lovely and sunny and it was a toss-up between that or Kazakhstan and understandably Crete won and then I was in Cork last night for the Ireland game the return leg and so I've had an eye on kind of all of the all of the various games and England obviously thrashing Greece and there was no Greek tragedy thank God but we've got you in to help me chat about these games and we're going to start with England's routing of Greece in Leicester 5-0, Alessia Russo getting a brace Lauren James getting a brace and Georgia Stanway scoring again um 8-1 on aggregate not bad I feel like we haven't seen a big hefty scoreline from England like this in like a comfortable way because the first leg wasn't really comfortable there was a few shaky moments there's a few moments that I was like oh and I remember I was watching I was actually in centre parks I was sort of watching between two fingers like oh I'm a bit nervous about this so I think having last night's a second leg game they needed something that felt more comfortable that showed that this is the plan and it's going to work because I think had they had another shaky game you're going into those really really important second round qualifier games at the end of November and December with not the most confidence.

3:53Were you hugely surprised that it was a bit sticky and crete you know England kind of have a bit of a habit when they come back into a new season if you like of of internationals a bit slow and sluggish. Yeah and you know what it reminded me of that game out in Iceland uh for the Nations League earlier on in the year when we all sort of like it could be a really easy game but teams like this really challenge England like for some reason whether it's the low block or whether it's just not playing a team maybe it's playing a disorganized team that means that England sort of get a bit disorganized because they're not used to having a team that is a little bit haphazard and it sort of throws them off but they've had a few of those games where like it should be quite an easy game and they sort of make it hard for themselves and I think that's a bit of a worry but the way they responded in the second leg I think is is should be an important thing for the team to take away the other thing as well about the second leg kind of getting off to a flyer was it allowed her to to make some changes and you know even in the starting 11 there were changes from the first leg we've seen debuts Erica Meg Parkinson making her debut Grace Fisk got a few a few minutes in the first leg and in And then in the second, and obviously Lexi Potter starting as well.

5:04So that was special for England to be able to come away, not only kind of getting through to the next round, but getting a few debuts on board as well. And do you know what? I've always been quite defensive of Serena Viedemann that I think she does rotate and she does give minutes. And everyone's always been really dramatic as if she's supposed to rotate her entire starting 11 by nine or 10 players every game. And when a few players are playing badly, she should rip up the script and completely go back to nothing. And I think it sort of silenced some of those critics of like, actually do you know what if the team is in a good position this is a manager who is willing to make changes and is willing to to bring on new people and I think there's been a lot of talk around like whether there's a succession problem and a pathway problem and I think there is a few issues in sort of England and the WSL being able to develop young players but I think we are starting to come out of the back end of that and seeing all the work that's gone in over the past 10 years because you know a few years ago we didn't have the crop of talent coming through like we do now so it's really nice to see your Lexi Potters your Erica Meg Parkinson's making their debuts and a manager that is clearly you know they're now potentially on track for for going to the World Cup like there's some exciting young players coming through absolutely and you know I think she got Serena got that kind of uh what's the word I'm looking for people decided that she didn't rotate because of that Euro 2022 where she played the same start and made the same subs and it just kind of stuck with her um and I think we've we've spoken as well about the Nations League qualifying now every game matters and and how it's become harder to have those opportunities to to rotate and to take those risks especially when you're expected to win all the time so it's it's a bit of a balancing act but no I agree I do think she does bring players through and um great to see Frey Godfrey get on and get like a good chunk of time get the 30 minutes almost score um and look confident and comfortable on the pitch so to see to see that is quite an exciting like to come away from this window knowing those players have gotten those minutes is great there's a lot of positives and I think also that there's a confidence in that young crop of talent that before potentially we've seen debuts and they can be a little bit nervy a little bit anxious like it's a huge thing to make your debut for England like for any team but especially like this is a double euros winning team like to come on and share the pitch with some of these players like there is that little bit in your head that that I can imagine is like oh this is a huge thing but for them to you know nearly score I mean there was that Lexi Potter goal that was ruled out as well like to have those moments that they're in the right places they have the confidence to score and then to try and put the ball in the back of the net, like that's really impressive.

7:27And I think it's a really good sign for England. And I think now that the selection headache for the World Cup just gets a bit bigger. And I think where we've potentially questioned whether England have the depth to go far in tournaments, it's nice that sort of eight months out, we're having the conversation of like, actually, has she got too many players? How do you make that decision of who goes and who stays? Absolutely. And actually, you know, ahead of this window, the exciting area of that England team was the midfield. and that's often the area that people are worried about with the England team.

7:54So if we touch on Georgia Stanway, who's had a great window, it's now 11 goals in her last 11 England games, which is ridiculous. And again, could have scored more. She had another one ruled out. Not to correlate it with Lexi Potter, but I feel like when she's in a team, it seems to free up the other midfielders around her to play a little bit higher. We're seeing it with Keira Walsh at Chelsea. You know, Stanway is obviously playing well for England anyway, but it just feels like maybe you know she does have that influence even as a young player in this in the in the midfield to kind of free up the players around her a little bit I think it's very true I think Chelsea's done a lot of work on on her positioning and also her confidence to sort of carry that role and to be confident in those areas because I think we've seen it before with midfielders as always sort of you can sort of have the most defensive minded but if you get the ball in a good area you sort of make more of attacking runs you sort of lose a little bit of that I don't want to I don't want to say it's complacency but I think you lose a little bit of that structure of like where you are in relation to the other players and I think potentially being a younger player and also being very mindful of that like this is her first real big opportunity for England she's probably even more focused on where she is on the pitch and like making sure that there's freeing up that that space for other people to move um but I think what we're seeing is a really like moldable player in Lexi Potter and I think she's got her foundations really well and I think what England will have as a benefit she's playing week in week out with Kira Walsh and then sort of filling in that area with Georgia Stanway this is a midfield that now Serena Vigman has quite a long time to develop into exactly what she wants and two players that know their role incredibly well and a young player coming through who can really easily fit into that really well so I wouldn't be surprised if potentially this is the midfield that we start to see develop a bit more in time for the World Cup it may not be the starting midfield at the World Cup we've still got eight months to go but I think if you're looking at it she's playing regular minutes, Elatoon isn't playing regular minutes, she works in that system so naturally you would think potentially she's the right option and I think it'll be interesting in those two games in November and December to see whether Potter starts both those and then I think we'll get a better picture of what Serena's thinking for the World Cup.

9:58So we've talked a little bit broadly about the window but you know looking specifically more at the games I think England relied a lot on their width in the first leg understandably with such good wingers and Lauren Hemp in such good form. I feel like there was a lot more central in the second leg and whether that's down to Potter starting or whether that's down to just recognizing where there's areas to exploit, they seem to be much more effective through the middle of the pitch. And a number of the goals came like slicing straight through the middle. And I just, you know, as you touched on, potentially it could be the future of the midfield, but that's quite exciting to see how effective that was.

10:33definitely I think also that adaptability and being able to shift the game plan whether or not it was the plan in the first leg to go wide or in the second leg to be more direct I think it's interesting that we're seeing a team that can be flexible because I think again Serena's been criticized quite a lot for potentially sticking with a plan and it may be not going right and struggling to sort of redo the setup at halftime so I think in between those two games to reassess and then come out with an almost better understanding of what they're trying to do is really positive. And yeah, I think what we're starting to see a bit more of the England that we haven't seen in a little while.

11:08I think it's been a lot of movements, so many moving parts. Think about all the players that have come in and come out, all the change that we've had, the change of formats, like everything is really different to sort of 2022, 2023. So now we're starting to see this settle a little bit more. I think we're starting to see that England back. But I also think there's a lot of criticism on England because when a lot of people came into the game, they were winning everything and they went on to win the Euros and it was like this huge thing. and then naturally in football nothing lasts forever and it was as if like they were supposed to be this absolute like dominant team winning every single thing over the past four years which doesn't happen so I'm glad that now I think England are in a better place and potentially silencing those critics yeah there was a real interrogation after the Greece game which I found fascinating because it was just a bit of a boring game that didn't really light the fire which happens and is fine but sometimes you really have to dig in and find out the big why and you know I loved it because there was an article about whether England were being ruthless enough and then they turned out the way they did um last night which I thought was a real like yeah answer to the critics but also like you think about how the qualification has changed over the last couple of years and the whole point of that is that you're facing more difficult opposition so it's meant to be more difficult for the top teams to qualify which arguably means it's going to be more difficult to score loads of goals like they did in the past.

12:27The whole point was to kind of avoid these 10-20-0 scorelines. So there is, for me, a bit of a correlation to that as well because it means England are facing less frequently teams that they have to break down. And then when they do have to break them down, they're like, oh God, how do we do this again? Yeah, I think that was the whole point of the Nations League, wasn't it? It was to throw away those sort of pointless trendlies that we had that were sort of a bit like, we don't really learn anything from a 10-0. There's no real benefit to playing a team that's way below you. And I guess you can make the same argument with Greece and again looking at some of the scorelines we've had in this window there have been quite heavy scorelines across two legs but that's the way that they chose to do the draw with the Nations League so I think it's almost like that middle ground between still being able to have that disparity between teams but trying to sort of close down the competition so it's not so open but I think it's interesting that I remember back when the first edition of the Nations League came out and England finished second in the group and it was like this whole big thing of like oh my god what if England don't qualify for the Euros and it was all the dramatics around it.

13:25And I was like, but this was the whole point. Like this was the point was that we needed more jeopardy in these games is that we're not having these windows that players essentially are going on international duty to play a game that doesn't mean anything, to come away with not really learning anything. They might as well have to stay at clubs at that point. So this was the whole point was that we were trying to close the gap between sort of your Spains, your England, your France's to your teams like Greece. And maybe Greece will have learned a huge amount from this game and could take that into the next Nations League phase that they play.

13:53The only argument is we end up seeing the same bloody fixtures over and over again. And you end up then those, in inverted commas, pointless friendlies, where you could be playing teams outside of your continent and getting some really valuable experience. Doesn't really happen as much anymore. Now, before we move away from England, I do want to come to a question that we've had from one of the best usernames I think we've had so far on the show, Cranberry Triangulum on YouTube. Would love to know how you came up with that. Who do you think should be the starting number 10? There are way too many options.

14:29There are too many options. I think it was really interesting because I was reading some pieces this morning off the back of the games. That's almost one of my favourite things is sort of reading articles that other people write off the back of these windows. Sometimes it's like, do we watch the same game? Right. And everyone's different interpretations of them is so interesting. And like what people think was good and bad and sort of what people think is a really like insane moment and what people some people don't even put in their report and i did love a lot of the the puns in the first leg though the greek tragedy puns was really enjoyable what was interesting with the second leg was the change in formation and england playing two tens and people sort of breaking that down and the statistics side of that but also then this sort of where does that fit into the criticism or the praise because what i couldn't really tell was with this new system and if this is going to stick for england are people happy about it or are they not happy about it and it was really interesting reading all of like the fallout from it because it's like there very much seems to be a split at the moment between whether this is like going to be a good thing for England or a bad thing for England but I'm quite excited to see 210s if Serena sticks with it and sort of playing a different midfield configuration because I think part of the problem is everyone's had these quite rigid roles and it's been the same for quite a while and I think bringing a bit more fluidity because you've got players like Lauren James that like if you do try to cramp her into one place you don't get the best out of her so why not try to put her in a system where you can unlock or allow her to have freedom yes make sure she's being disciplined but let her roam let her do what she needs to do and have that cover on the pitch that you don't get exposed I'm all for sort of trying new things at this point to see what gets the best out of these players because I think what we're seeing especially in the league at the moment is potentially clubs not knowing how to get the best out of the players they've got and England arguably has one of the best squads of international talent that is playing regular minutes and most of them are informed so why not come up with a system that gets the most out of them so I almost haven't really answered your question well I was gonna say like the other thing is it very much factors on who England are playing and you know sometimes an LJ in that position is going to provide that creativity that you need to unlock a defense or you know maybe you need to have a little bit more of a defensive minded midfield so I do think having variety in that position is quite beneficial because harder for the opposition to prepare against you you know like I was I was listening to this game while watching the Ireland game and you know some of the conversations around because we have to talk a little bit very before we move on about England's defense because everyone's terribly worried um about it and and I found it really interesting because there was this thing you know Greece came out and pressed a little bit which of course they did because it didn't work but they were doing so much last time of course they were going to start the game to try and put England under a little bit of pressure if they got an early goal and made it 3-2 suddenly we've got a game on our hands so it was completely expected but it felt like it was a complete shock when I I was listening because they were basically saying like, surprise that England's defence are being put under pressure, if you know what I mean.

17:18And at one point it was said, well, if this was England playing against Spain, they could be 4-5-0 down by now. And I was like, well, they wouldn't set up like that if they were playing against Spain. They wouldn't be camped in Spain's half, first of all, and be getting caught on the counter. So it's like, it very much depends on who the team is playing. Very much depends on the kind of football they need to play against the opposition they're playing. And that will have an impact on maybe who does start in the 10 or how they set up. you know do you remember back during the world cup when against china and england set up with you know two up front we were all like oh my god this is fascinating do it all the time but like it just it's not going to work against every opposition and then they did something different and they had that really tough game against nigeria that went to penalties but this is the thing like is i always think like comparing two completely different football games is like comparing apples and oranges because it's a different team it's different setup it's a complete different ball game i mean against spain england probably wouldn't try to play a possession heavy game because they would know that that's how they would get caught out so it's like everything is so different with different opponents and you can compare i guess similar style of play from like if you are looking at like how greece ukraine a lot of those sort of uh i guess lesser developed international setups are they would play slightly similar because they'll be trying to minimize the damage whereas a team like france or spain are going to set up to play the game that they want to play because they know that's their best way to try and win so it's so different and i think it's that ability to assess it from an outside perspective of going, it doesn't all have to be pretty football, but they're getting the job done.

18:44Yeah, Greece was allowed to press them, and there was a few moments, but they handled it quite well. If you're expecting to never be pressed in a football game, you're going to have a pretty tough wake-up call. Well, this is it as well. I also think there was a lot of talk around England's defence and it looking a bit shaky, and I agree, it did. and I do think part of me thinks it's down to playing a team where they expect to press and have lots of possession and it's almost like they switch off a little bit it's almost like they need to have more consistent pressure throughout a game to be sharper and you know you think back to the last game against Spain where England fell apart essentially you don't want that to be happening but I'm hesitant to kind of decide that this is the massive issue if you know what I mean and I do think there are other factors around it but I do think defence has been the kind of concern, main concern that's come out of this window, even though England only conceded one goal.

19:38Yeah, I think it's probably because it doesn't, there was a lot of talk going into it because of some of the players being out of form. You look at Leah Williamson and sort of with Arsenal and that was the big concern of like, well, should she be playing because she's out of form? Talk to me about this because I, this was like a thing that came out of the press conference where someone asked in the press conference about Leah's form and I was like, I didn't realise that Leah Williamson's form had been an issue other than the Paris handball, obviously. But up until then, for me, I mean, we're going to get into the Arsenal chat, but she wouldn't have been top of my mind as a player who was very out of form for Arsenal.

20:13So I didn't realise even that that was a concern, if you like. I think people look at it and go, because Arsenal aren't playing well, all 11 individuals on the pitch aren't playing well. And I think that is true to a degree that none of them have had a good start to the season. None of them are playing the best football they've ever played in their lives. I think there's a lot more obviously pressure on the defence because if a team's not scoring to sort of salvage points you have to be good in defence and at the moment Arsenal aren't the most conducive in defence they're not playing very well they're a bit haphazard they've switched Catley have picked up an injury so then it's Lota and they've changed around a lot and I think Williamson has I think it got to her head a little bit and I think that's what happened with the Paris goal like I don't think a player who in a team is playing well and who feels confident in her own performance makes a mistake like that I think that's where that comes from I think it's a because if we look at it from another way if Arsenal weren't scoring but the defence was really really solid you would still probably have the same criticism of Williamson but I think at this point I think because of that Paris incident everything is a little bit more heightened I think it's true that she's not in the best form of her life I don't think it's as dire as everyone is making out to be It would never have been a point I would have thought of going into the England, essentially.

21:30But I do always think the England defence is one of the worries for everyone, always. And I do think England are prone to conceding. So I can understand that. And I guess it's that balance of when you face tougher opposition, they get tested more. And then essentially, you see them under pressure a bit more, you see them play a bit better, generally. They will be playing Ukraine next. that has been decided because we do love in the Nations League and the qualifiers playing the same opponents as regularly as possible. So they will be playing Ukraine next who of course they beat in the qualifiers for the World Cup and now they're going to play again in the playoffs for the World Cup.

22:08Potentially not one that's going to heavily test the defence again. Probably not but I think one thing I do think that's a fair criticism is that the defence has rotated a lot and a lot of that's been through injuries and I think I don't know if if Vigman knows her her best sort of defensive line at the moment and I think a lot of that does also come down to availability but I think it's always been a little bit like wrote switch this player for this player this player for this player and sort of see what happens and I think what I'd I'd be interested to see is that if she had all of her options available everyone was fit and healthy what would the back line look like because I think it will naturally always feature Lucy Bronson Leah Williamson and I think they should start but I'd be interested to see who filters in in those other positions because that's really been the big question that and sort of who plays if Lucy Bruns is unavailable well I just want to say over this window someone who really stood out for me was May Letizier and I thought she had a brilliant game in right back and I know it gets everyone's knickers in a twist because she plays centre-back for Manchester United of course I am fully aware of that she's very very very good at that England have a lot of centre-backs and when they say she should be starting in the centre-back I'm like cool who steps in for Lucy Bruns because Mel Etizier is so good that she can play those two positions at that level and I think having versatility in the squad is super important but I just wanted to shout out her because I thought she had a really good window and I think it's been good that Wiegmann has stuck to her guns and saying I see her as a right back and I want her as a right back so I'm going to play her as a right back and if things go tits up she can drop in centre back if you need to and yes it's why everyone you know before the window everyone was like what does Ruby Mace have to do to get in the team she needs to play in the position that England want her playing in it's simple as that you know if she was playing we look at I know there's that sort of talk around Chloe Kelly and the injury but Serena sort of said that she didn't pick her base on that it was that she wasn't playing enough she wasn't playing well enough you look at other players that have been left out of that squad Aggie Beaver-Jones hasn't been in form hasn't been playing enough isn't in the squad you'd make the same argument for Ruby Mace she's not playing in the right position and therefore she's not getting in the squad she's not in contention because England don't need another defender but she's on the fringes and I do think we might see her should England make the World Cup because I'm not going to keep saying that, you know, when they get to the World Cup, if England make the World Cup, I do think we might see her in the future windows beforehand just to see what she could potentially offer.

24:26Right, we could delve into this more and more and more, but we're going to move on because there are more games to chat about. Coming up after this, Ireland make it a dozen against Kazakhstan.

24:47Therapy's biggest impact doesn't show up in some dramatic breakthrough. It shows up in the smallest moments. You bite your tongue instead of escalating. You put your phone down instead of firing off that text. You say what you actually mean instead of what would hurt someone else the most. Nobody applauds those moments, but they quietly change your life. That's what growing feels like. And that's exactly what Grow Therapy is here for. Grow is therapy that works, covered by insurance. Sessions average$21 with insurance and some pay as little as$0 depending on their plan. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments.

25:25You just pay per session. Grow connects you with thousands of high-quality licensed therapists across the U.S. offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability. and you can book a therapy session in minutes and begin in as little as two days, not the national 48-day average. See if you could pay as little as$0 for therapy in seconds at growtherapy.com slash start now. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

26:11Okay, Ireland 4, Kazakhstan 0. 12-0 on aggregate. 10 different goal scorers, which I think is one of the biggest takeaways. It was Carla Ward's biggest point in the press conference yesterday. She was like, tell me another team. It's had 10 different goal scorers in this window, which is pretty impressive. They'd obviously come into this second leg 8-0 up. And that was a game they played away in Kazakhstan without Denise O'Sullivan, without Katie McCabe and without Marissa Sheva, who I think has been a revelation under Carla Ward. So to be so dominant, understandably Kazakhstan went down to 10 in like the 33rd minute, I think it was.

26:47But yeah, a slightly different game in Cork last night, which I think is to be expected. I think when you get heavily beaten in the first leg, you tend to be a little bit tighter in the second. Yeah, I think it's almost like a save as much pride as you possibly can at that point. but like you say like scoring 12 is incredible but against sort of the depth and the disparity in opposition I don't think we'd expect much less I would like to I think there's sort of like a reluctance to sort of count some of these teams like Ireland as teams that should be performing really well I think there's almost a reluctance to be like oh no well like you know 3-0 would be respectable like no I think they're a good team we should be considering them in amongst that that conversation that actually no they should have gone out and punished them like they did and again I agree with with what Carla Ward was saying that like the important of that the importance of that is is the 10 goal scorers is that multiple players stepped up multiple players found the back of the net because I think that is going to be a key thing for them if they are going to progress through to the World Cup is being able to score in different positions score for different players have different options that is going to be key and I'm glad that this game went how I thought it should go and that's that they went out there with the the plan to punish a team to get themselves into the best position to try and make it through to the World Cup yeah they were ruthless and you could see that from the the starting lineup Denise Sullivan and Katie McKay back in and so they definitely weren't taking their foot off the gas and I think Ireland is a really great example of a team who've benefited from this Nations League format by being very good in group b getting up to league a twice and you could really see the learning from their first time in league a to the second time in league a and they've become a team now where i don't think anyone really takes them for granted and these games i was talking about this on a on another podcast back in ireland you know and and how everyone immediately writes them off and nobody learns anything and etc etc and actually you know you look at a team I've said this a number of times like England who struggle to break down teams and a team like Ireland who don't and that's because obviously they are more regularly facing teams that they will have to break down right but what they're doing now is they're also performing against the top teams and they're being very difficult for the top teams to play against and I think having a game like this where they score 12 goals where 10 different players score it means that you're going to be more clinical when you are coming up against a top team and you've less chances you're also more confident that you're not just relying on one or two people getting them into the right position you've got a squad of players who are confident enough to have a go and take a shot and whether it's a header or a cross or a corner or whatever there's confidence across the squad to try and get that goal and I think that's where you can learn from these games is being ruthless and being clinical because you know against Poland it's going to be more difficult.

29:41Yeah it's funny because as I was thinking there I was like I'm going to be a really big hypocrite now because about five minutes ago I said that you don't really learn anything from putting 10 past a team circumstance different but I think in this instance you do learn a lot and I think also it's that mentality that you've got to build in a squad like Ireland I think part of the problem has always been potentially that they've been seen as and potentially seen themselves as sort of a team that isn't in that top section and I think yeah and I think an underdog mentality can help you so far I think at that point you then have to be like no we deserve to be here we've we've done this before like we've got to world cup before like we have been one of the top teams we still are going to be one of the top teams like sort of moving past that like we'll be happy just to play and I think that's something that Carla Ward has been really good at instilling in this team is like no you are a good team you are good players like you should be in this conversation prove you should be in this conversation I think we saw in the past as well with and I'm going to talk about the Wales game as much as Carla was like can we move past the Wales game and stop bringing up the Wales game it was a really good example of Ireland not being an underdog and they weren't comfortable with it and they need to get rid of like you say they need to get rid of that discomfort of not being the underdog and I was really intrigued to see you know people were hoping that they'd score 10 goals or they'd beat the record of 11 and score 11 last night and I didn't think it was going to be like that not just because I didn't think Ireland were going to go out and cruise or think they had it wrapped up I thought that was what I was really intrigued to see how mentally they were in the game?

31:05Were they going to go out there and go push, push, push, be ruthless? And they did. And granted, they didn't score 10 goals, they scored four. But a lot of that was down to Kazakhstan just being a bit more defensively sound. And I just think that's really important mentality-wise to not kind of drop off and think, ah, we have this one, we're through. I think that's a really important kind of lesson, I guess, to take out of that game. And I was really pleased to see them really going for it. You can get a bit too much at times. You think you've almost got an open game to play with and to take it so far that you then leave yourself exposed you allow kazakhsan to come back in like it's a really controlled way of of taking that second leg of like you have an opportunity you know what you can do you can score goals but remain connected remain in conversations stay together at the back like make sure the midfield is still operating well like it is important to have those basics and even a game like that that is an opportunity where everything, you can see it all working together and ensuring that all those areas on the pit so that if you were to put that against a team that is potentially going to come out and score more, you're a bit more solid and can protect against that.

32:13And it also allowed Carla Ward to rotate a lot. There was plenty of substitutions. Sinead Hopcroft got her debut and a goal on debut, nearly with her first touch. Chloe Mistake was rested for the second game. She did a lot in the first. She scored a goal and had a hat-trick of assists. So, you know, gave her a little bit of a break. I think they basically said she felt something in training and it just wasn't worth risking her for. Like, she's fine, but it just wasn't worth risking her for. You know, I thought Abby Larkin looked superb in both games. She's got a real bite about her. And I think she's, you know, especially we've seen it at Crystal Palace, is becoming more clinical and she always looks dangerous.

32:49She was great. Kira Caruso didn't start the second game, but came on. And, you know, it's allowing players to get more minutes in their legs, to get some debuts, to kind of shake those off before potentially going into, say, a game like Poland, where suddenly the stakes are much higher. And you don't want someone in going, oh, my God, it's my first game for Ireland. And I'm playing in a huge game. And, you know, it's a really good opportunity to try and take those nerves away from like a big moment or a debut goal or a debut or a start, whatever it might be. So I thought that was really important as well.

33:21So as I said, it was either Belgium or Poland. And Belgium and Poland played each other last night, went to extra time, went to penalties and Poland came through and there's been lots of discussion around whether Ireland would prefer Belgium or Poland who again they've played in the last year 18 months. Yeah it's crazy how much we're recycling the same games. Yeah they beat Belgium comfortably. This was the playoff to get back into League A. They beat Belgium comfortably in the Aviva and then they lost in Leuven which so many people do. I don't think I've ever been to Leuven. It's like a graveyard.

33:50I've never been to Leuven for an England game and England have won. Well Arsenal did I guess but yeah and then Ireland went, lost 2-1 but 1 on I can't remember exactly what it was there's something about that stadium Spuddy Leuven and Tessa Wollart in Leuven honest to god yeah I'm yeah I'm not a fan of any not a fan of any team I'm not envious of any team that has to go to Leuven to play there yeah but then the other side of me is like oh cool but Poland just have you know Ewa Peor who's like one of the best strikers in the world so you're like which team do you want it is Poland and they will be a difficult team but again a team Ireland beat twice in the World Cup qualifiers that they played in this year.

34:31So, you know, part of me is a bit like, you know, when a team loses, they tend to be the one that learns the most. Yeah. That's the thing that makes me a little bit nervous. And as Karl Ward said, Poland are going to be out for revenge. They are. And also, like we've seen before, they've never been to a World Cup before. And I don't know what that feels like to be so close to potentially going to a first World Cup. They felt that. And then when they made sure that they were the team that came out on top, that's what Poland are going to feel. And I think the mentality is going to be really important because I think the same way it can go both ways for a team, that that can really instill something in you.

35:04But it can also almost be so overwhelming, your desire to get to a World Cup, that it almost works against you. And weathering that storm is going to be as much as a part of the conversation as trying to play two lots of 90 minutes of football and whatever else comes with extra time and penalties, which I don't want to talk about. What's difficult with it as well is across the two legs. and I've said how much I hate two-legged playoffs because I just, what I don't want Ireland to do is they need to be in the tie after the first leg. They're playing away to Poland first, right? And then they're coming back to the Aviva, which is great.

35:36But what I don't want to happen is like the Wales game, the dreaded Wales game, where no one really came to play in the first leg. It was a really kind of crap game of football and then it all came down to the 90 minutes in Aviva and you kind of want to have something to go into the second leg with just to kind of ever so slightly ease that pressure. It reminds me a lot of what Chelsea used to do in those three years that they played Barcelona in the semifinals of the Champions League. And they always set up to minimize damage in the first leg and never had enough to play for in the second leg.

36:04And it's not the worst idea in the world to try and minimize. So you have something to play for in the first leg, but not to the point you sit back so much that you have either a 1-0 or a 1-0. And then you're trying to put everything on the line in the second leg and you lose it. That I saw happen three times in three consecutive years. It is not a good idea to do it. yeah it's a whole it's a whole mental game yeah it's so intriguing so yeah I'll be there at the Aviva on the 5th of December hopefully with a game to play for for Ireland that will be massive Denise O'Sullivan spoke post-match as well like about the fact that they beat Poland twice and she recognised you know Poland are a good side they have a world class striker obviously but we have great players we're up for the challenge we'll be fully ready in six weeks and I hope for the final time I'll say about the Wales game I hope they can take the pain of that to not let that happen again.

36:57But yeah, my God, there's a whole lot more I feel. There's the same thing riding on it for England as there is for Ireland, but it's a hell of a lot closer for Ireland. Yeah, and it almost feels more, like you say, there's more on the line it feels like to try and get back to a World Cup. It feels different. It feels like that for every team, I think. I'm already nervous. Coming up after this, a deep dive on Arsenal's continuing doubles. Well, not for the first time this season, Emily. I'm going to ask what's gone wrong at Arsenal? Because that seems to be the main talking point from the WSL at the moment.

37:34I'd kind of forgotten about it for the last kind of week and a half. It's kind of nice not having to try and think of more reasons why Arsenal can't score or win games. What we've decided to do this time is bring in a different voice, which is really helpful for me because I have run out of ideas. so yes with the WSL obviously returning this weekend we're going to take a moment to maybe zoom out a little bit a bit more macro than micro and look at the situation at Arsenal you recently wrote a piece for ESPN about this exact topic very helpfully so just a small question what is going on? I think it's an amalgamation of so many little things that aren't working in Arsenal's favour right now and there are some big picture things that I think have to be addressed that haven't been addressed for a long time.

38:22And that is the wider, I guess, structure arsenal that has seen very little change, but is now sort of on the third manager. If you're thinking from Joe Montemurio to Unis Ildval to Rene Sleggers, there are some coaching staff, technical staff and senior staff that have all weathered through the same three managers that the same issues and the same conversations have come up because to put us here two years ago when Ildval was there, we had the same comments around him and his structure and the management of the team, the tactics, it's all very, very similar. Every issue that is happening under Renee Sluggers has predated her.

38:57And I think the wider conversation needs to, like say, almost zoom out of Arsenal a little bit of going, this whole environment isn't working. Something bigger that is more than just what Renee can handle is going on here. And I think that seeping into the players and therefore the players' confidence is low. Like Sluggers is questioning her ability to manage this team because the main thing that came up as I was talking to different contacts for that piece was that if Renee Sluggers is going to leave it's going to be off her own back she will decide to walk the club back her the players back her but if she doesn't feel she can take this team further if she doesn't feel like she can turn things around then the decision is up to her and I think that is almost the worst place she could be in I think what's interesting as well is you touched on this in your article you basically broke it down into three categories renee sluggers coaching staff so beyond renee and the players themselves and i just wonder if she was to leave and you kind of said it in the article without going beyond that it's going to be a bit of a case of rinse and repeat yeah and i think the problem is is also had quite a few of these sort of internal audits where they've done at when things have gone wrong and yet we don't really ever see much come out of them or much change no and I think that's the thing of like potentially for all we know they've looked internally they've identified one specific thing that's not working and they're going to change it and it might be the thing that changes everything.

40:20The international break came at the best time for Arsenal because it got the players away from the environment they were allowed to have a bit more time to do different things because even at the national teams the training set up is different. Score some goals? Yeah, that was my main thing was that they've actually got on the score sheet which is a huge boost of confidence for players when they're lacking in confidence. I think now it's bringing that back together and how do you then harness that and I think my big question for Rene Sleg is at this point is how do you get the most out of these players because the the big problem is is that none of these players are actually in right areas or in the right tactics to do the most to do what they can do and I think it's going to be hard with Mariana Caldente potentially out for at least a few weeks picking up an injury that's going to be really tough because she's been so important to them.

41:07But I also think it gives other players a chance to sort of move around the pitch a little bit. I think Rene needs to pick where Alessi Riso is going to play, play her in that position. And I think then they need to pick a midfield that's going to be the core midfield that they want to play with, which is hard, obviously, with Caldente out. No, no, I was going to pick up on that because frequent changes in the midfield has been an issue. It was Stanway, Little, Caldente against Brighton. Stanway, Cooney Cross, Caldente against Crystal Palace. Caldente, Stanway and Russo against Man United Little, Cooney Cross, Monum against HB Cuia Cooney Cross, Stanway, Little against Chelsea and then the same for Paris and Man City so funnily enough the consistency is where they lost the games which is weird but it is that balance of too much change team can't settle then you do have consistency things aren't going right and you're like why aren't you making the change for the listeners benefit If you've just picked this podcast at random to listen to and you haven't been paying attention to the WSL, first of all, rogue choice, but welcome.

42:10Second of all, Arsenal, after five WSL matches, sit 10th in the league on five points, 10 points behind defending champions Manchester City, who are at the top of the table. So in a pretty difficult situation. And what we've seen in the past is Arsenal tend to start slow, right? Yeah. Then they find their spark. Great. Should that happen against Birmingham at the weekend? while that's all well and good and and you know by some miracle if they go on and start winning games and scoring loads of goals great you kind of feel the damage is being done a little bit yeah we say they start slow this season is different this season is they're walking they're going backwards yeah because my the the stat that i think for me that when i was writing i was like this is damning was arsenal's conversion rate before the man city game was 2.5 percent which is the lowest ever in the league since Yeovil Town were in the league in 2017, 2018.

43:08I would say I missed them, but it was such a long journey down. Throwback. That for me was the thing that I was like, that is irreparable. Even if you have a really, really good run of form, there is no title if that's your conversion rate. But you need others then to drastically slip up, you know, lose three games or something. You can't, if you look at it, I think no team has ever, it's like it's something crazy like 12 points no team has ever dropped more than 12 points and won the league or something like that yeah and like I get that there was always that thing you can never lose two games and win the league and then it was you can never lose three games and then win the league I feel like that's a bit like just we're moving away from that a little bit but I agree I think especially a team although we did say we remember Man City at the beginning of last year and they were miles ahead and then it came down to two points yeah I do think teams will lose across the league definitely but I think it's almost less likely that Arsenal will win every game yeah I think the thing is you know what if that does happen clip this up because I'm very happy to be like whoa I was wrong that's insane but essentially they would need to win every game and need the teams above them to drop points I think when you looked at it if they had won against Man City the gap didn't seem that big four that'd be grand like it didn't seem that big of a thing you beat Man City and then it's won do you know what I mean like suddenly you're like oh okay we can make this a ten and I think also I will say and as a lot of people have said that they've had a tough run of games and that is a thing but I don't think that can be what you put your blame on because in any other circumstance if you had played well in the Brighton and in the Crystal Palace games you're going into that going we could potentially go 9 for 9 against our biggest opponents that is where the difference is yeah I agree and arguably beaten Manchester United in the game that they played where they were dominating essentially no absolutely and I think sometimes what happens is Arsenal start slow damage their title chances find their form again and then kind of paper over the fact that they started slow and didn't win a title again and I just don't think that can happen again.

45:07I think it's got to be like there has to be trophies this year and I and it's difficult because like Sluggers did an incredible thing winning the Champions League in that first season. It was an incredible thing. No one could take that away from her but it can't be another season of rinse and repeat like you say of the same problems the same situation and the same end goal it's like you can't not change anything and expect a different outcome so I think that's the definition of madness to keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results but then I think it's got to get to a point where like if they're not winning like what is the positive coming out of this like I don't really think that you know the Champions Cup last year is what should be the one trophy it's a new ask an Arsenal fan they'd be very happy about that that the League Cup for a long time that was the one thing that suddenly the League Cup mattered well hey can't have that now not anymore not anymore No more looking for you.

45:56So it's like, what happens now? They have to really go for something now. And is it going to be the FA Cup? Like, what is it now? Because you get to the end of the season, let's say it's no more trophies. What happens in the summer? But also, if that happens, do we have to stop talking about Arsenal as a big team? I think, I mean, it's funny because I kept seeing the argument of after Man United lost to Chelsea of going, Man United aren't in the conversation for a top team. We shouldn't be talking about them as a top team. And I'm like, how many top teams are we going to count out at the end of this season?

46:25but it's like I think it's hard because for so long they have also positioned themselves as a top team and you don't win the Champions League if you're not somewhat in the conversation as being a top team but what's been really obvious is domestically something is not working for them and maybe it was just because they could have a really good Champions League or maybe it was you know Idavel left and they had sort of a new manager bounce in a way not really much had to change yeah but Champions League also starts a bit later although arguably they did go all the way through because they had qualifiers that way through but they were playing like lower quality teams arguably and with the league format you know they could drop it here and there you know and then they suddenly hit their stride when it matters later on in the season with the league hitting your stride late when you've already dropped X amount of points you know bit late I mean their next five fixtures Birmingham City at home Spurs away that'll be real interesting Benfica at home Aston Villa at home and Liverpool away again another tough one sort of bookends that a little bit they've sort of got a few I don't think there's any easy games anymore but a few games that you'd expect them to be able to pick up some form but then it goes right back to another quite tough game It's hard isn't it when you draw 0-0 with Crystal Palace a team who've been promoted and I would argue I think Birmingham and Crystal Palace have performed quite well in a lot of games less said about Spurs, Palace, the better but if you're 0-0 against Palace I feel like in your head you're going into that Birmingham game going oh god Oceana Huertre like can we put seven players on her or something because she's like unreal I think that's the thing, it's the mentality because you win that Palace game you don't even question going in to play Birmingham you prepare in the way you play for every game you go through all the motions but you don't have that little voice in your head that's going oh I don't know about this one that's when you're in good form you don't have that and I think the thing for Arsenal now is how do you get rid of that how do you return that mentality back to being because it's something that has always been said that like Arsenal lack the ruthless mentality that Chelsea have.

48:28Like, and I think that's quite obvious in the way that they have then responded to this period of time. That after the first sort of tough game, it wasn't responding with this sort of like really confident mentality. And then it was, it got worse and worse and worse. That, a lot of it comes down to the mentality and what's sort of going on for these players in their own heads. I also think that, look, when Chelsea have not performed at their best in the past they've still found a way to win and I think that's the thing that Arsenal are lacking well I mean you know very quickly now have to get our international hat off and our domestic hat back on for the WSL fixtures this weekend and I think pre-season you probably wouldn't have looked at Arsenal-Birmingham and thought oh that's definitely a fixture you want to keep an eye on with the greatest respect to both teams you know you would think you know might be looking somewhere else but suddenly that is a game that the eyes are going to be on Amy Merricks I think will be rubbing her hands together she's got an unbelievable goal scorer and she also knows that if they keep Arsenal out for long enough the longer it goes on the less likely it is Arsenal's score and I think what you've seen is you've seen the past few games of teams really expose where Arsenal are weakest and it's like a learning manual you've watched those four games and if you're a good technical team you're going right we know exactly what to do to frustrate them and we could get some points especially if you're like say if you're Birmingham and you need some points to sort of bridge that gap at the bottom, like any point when you're sort of hanging around the bottom of the table is important.

49:55If you can potentially target one, if not three points against a top team, that is really important at this stage of the game for any team, let alone a team that's potentially in and around that relegation conversation. Well, we will no doubt be dissecting that and everything else next week. Chloe will be back, we hope, from Vietnam. Bruno's looking confident-ish. He's nodding. Yeah, we think she's coming back. We hope she's coming back. So it will be Chloe back in the hot seat and me over where Emily is, hopefully not being asked, what do Arsenal have to do to win a game? Because despite this wonderful chat, I don't know.

50:31But yes, definitely one to keep an eye on. Thank you guys so much for listening to this episode of Upfront. Thank you, Emily, for stepping in. It's been fun. You guys can find us on Instagram and X. I'm at girls on the ball. Emily is at Emily Esquio. And we are at Upfront underscore pod. You can also find us on YouTube at Upfront Pod. Chloe and I will see you next way.

51:10Upfront is a Stack production and part of the Acast Creator Network.