Recall Sessions: The PR Playbook Most Founders Get Wrong — Paul Loeffler & Kelly Boynton

23:49Because what you're actually getting when you hire an agency is not coverage. You are getting strategy. You're getting some support on storytelling. You're getting the media relations, the pattern recognition. It's all of that. And I think founders, what they don't like, to your point, is it's this kind of unexpected outcomes. That's what they get upset about. They think that they just bought coverage, and that's not what they actually bought. The other thing I think about it, too, is if you think about the most valuable currencies right now in a very crowded, noisy world, credibility, reputation, differentiation, those are extremely valuable currencies to be able to have.

24:33And so the way we think about the role of a comms program and an agency partner or an in-house partner, those are the people that are charged with making sure that the company has a strong reputation, is credible. So all the things that you want to be out there talking about in the world, people believe what you're saying. If you have low credibility, if you don't really have a lot of differentiation, it's hard for you to be able to stand out and ultimately for people to sit there and be interested and engage what you're being able to say. So I think that's part of some of the challenges, a little bit of the misalignment or the expectations around what value, what does this relationship exist for in the first place?

25:15And what's the value that I'm looking for? it. If you're playing the long game, you're thinking about your credibility, you're thinking about your reputation, you're thinking about how you create differentiation. And so, you know, when you add up the cost of that, that is something you would sit there and invest in very deeply because you were going to always need that. If you're thinking about it from a lead standpoint, you might not necessarily see the same kind of result of the return during those spikes. The other point too, I think that Kelly made it that was really good. If you invest in a program, it becomes more efficient.

25:46It's almost like gas mileage. When you have your foot on the gas driving down the road, you get very good mileage out of the gas that you put into. But if you pump the brakes or if you're going around the city and you kind of start and stop, you're paying way more than you would have to. So the more that you continue to invest, it will compound in terms of the value, especially when you think about it from a reputation and a credibility standpoint. How, you know, we have founders that are always introducing other founders to other agencies or individuals that are freelancers, how do you evaluate whether, I mean, if you're talking to a founder and saying, hey, how do you find the right fit for you?

26:21How do you know? Because everyone's saying, I got relationships with A, B, and C. Like, oh, hey, I feel like I can tell your story. I mean, at least having done this before, like in prior companies I founded, it felt like everybody was saying the same thing. How do you know this is the right fit for me? And obviously, you're going to get advice from others, and everybody's saying good things about agencies. But what would be some tips for founders as they're evaluating potential individual or agency partners to assess whether there's something to work on together? Other than chemistry. Two areas that I look at, like, will they debate or can they debate with you where you're finding it?

26:59You're looking for that. Yeah, you want to have a debate. If you're not having, the best storytelling ends up usually as a result of some form of debate. And if there's no debate or there's no challenging going back and forth, that's usually kind of a sign that that's probably not the partner for you. Because rarely does good storytelling just all of a sudden words fall on a page and you're like, that's great. Usually to find something that's interesting, there has to be some drama. There has to be some edge to it and there has to be some contrarian perspective. And that happens through debate and challenging.

27:31And so when you're looking for a partner, you should want that. even if it's not something you enjoy, you should expect that. So should a founder in that context, Paul, be like, hey, what do you think is wrong with our story? Or should they be poking holes in it? And if I were on the agency side, I would be like, hey, I have advice, but I'm not ready to share with you because we're not working together. Is that a thing? I imagine that could be a thing. Where an agency doesn't want to kind of show their cards. Yeah, they don't want to show their cards because I'm already creating value for you.

28:01I think you want to have someone ask you lots of questions, right? You want them to be, besides the kind of poking holes, and I think that gets to debating, right? That's what leads to debating. It's the asking questions, showing that you care, that you're excited, that you're passionate and curious. Got it, got it. So let's say you hire a... Beware of somebody who says, wow, you're amazing and doesn't follow up with anything else. We're so excited to work with you. You're the hottest company in the space. A lot of compliments and platitudes, that's usually when I start to go running. Because it's one of those where that's fine.

28:39I already know what we're good at. Where I'm looking for is how are you going to make us better? How are you going to make us sharper? What do you have an understanding of that I don't that I need? And so when you think about a good partner, you don't want a partner that knows exactly what you know or thinks exactly the way. The value of a partnership is you are bringing somebody that adds something to the table. So that perspective is super important. and somebody that's overly complimentary, that's probably not who you want to be working with. There's this, let's assume that a founder kind of understands the value of the agency and now they're ready to engage and formally start working together.

29:17And they have this false expectation that, hey, I saw another company get written up on ABC Place. Why can't I get written up there too? This is like, I hear this all the time. And I'm like, one, I don't know what to say in that situation, But like, what would you say to that founder who is like looking at the world and saying, hey, I'm special too? Yeah, I would say reporters don't write about companies. They write about trends. They write about what's happening in the world. And if you're proof of that, you might get picked up and or someone else might get picked up instead. So I would say, again, it's not about you.

29:54It's not about your company. It's about what is happening in the world. and if you are proof of that or part of that conversation or can contribute to that conversation. Yeah, there's a common misconception, too, of like, oh, because another company got written about, I should be too. The understanding of that earned is different than paid. And so I think a lot of times, like, whenever I've had a founder come and say, like, oh, XYZ competitor was in that story. Like, we are way bigger. We have more money. Like, we have more revenue. We have more customers, all these different things. You want to go and dissect the story of, okay, what did that company do to potentially earn what they got?

30:37What can we do to earn more of what we want to as well? But not losing sight of like, it's always an earned game. Like there are times where relationships will sit there and open doors, but the stories that end up happening as a result of it, there's still a component that's earned of it. You know, there are new media or like there are VC podcasts still like they want to be telling the best stories, you have to earn it. Even if you do have an in, that doesn't give her a T that you're going to get something. And so making sure to never lose sight of the fact of earned means you actually have to do the work.

31:09Yeah, I mean, this kind of happens a lot where a founder kind of comes to me and say, oh, hey, I met with XYZ. They work with agency. They met with a potential journalist. They tell their story and they say, they didn't write about us. And I'm like, okay, what do you tell those founders that are like, hey, I'm sorry they just didn't find your story compelling or something like that. Because it happens a lot. I mean, the way to building relationships with reporters, engage with their content. Like, follow up on that relationship. That's supposed to be the start of a relationship. It's definitely not the end.

31:43So comment on their posts when you have an opportunity or see a way to provide an interesting perspective. Do that as well. And then, I mean, the kind of rule of thumb is don't, you know, ask for something before you kind of give something. And so I think I would treat this again. It's a relationship. It's not. But in practice, what does that mean? Is it like, hey, when I see when I read something that a journalist kind of wrote about anything that they're writing, do you just email them and say, hey, I mean, you can't be lame and be like, hey, I like what you wrote, you know, period, send. I mean, what is the right approach?

32:21is too much, too much, like what is the right balance here? Is there any rules of thumb or just like don't be a creep? Which is probably a good rule of thumb. I would say most of the rules that you probably learned in kindergarten are very appropriate. And when you think about engaging, don't be a creep, don't be whiny, and crying about like you didn't get something that somebody else got. If you follow kind of like basic rules, you should be fine. But reaching out, saying, hey, I've been paying attention to what you've been reporting on. I think these are really important issues that you are talking about.

32:58I would love to grab time and talk to you more about them. If you are demonstrating that you are trying to provide value, most journalists are going to be excited of, great, here's an expert that I can sit there and talk to and get perspective on so that I can become smarter. Or I can be more informed or understand something that I didn't already know about. So if you lead with you are trying to actually help and be in service of storytelling that is not just about you, that will open up a lot of doors. I think another important point that Kelly was raising, too, you can't treat relationships with journalists transactionally.

33:35It should not be, I'm only going to talk to them if I'm going to get a story out of this. Worst thing you can ever be doing is trying to go tell an important story to the first time for somebody that you've never spent any time with. Like you want to be going to people that you're like, okay, we have an interest. We understand their perspective. I have a sense of how they're going to be telling this story. You don't want to just be going to them of saying like, here's my story. They may be really excited and then not understand your story and tell it in a way that you don't believe is true. So one of the things that's most important is to not treat relationships transactionally.

34:09And also to really think about like, okay, this is the right person to tell my story. I'm going to spend some time with them before it's time for them to be telling my story. What's your take on this press release as a concept? Is it dead? It's alive and well. The wire, is that even? I mean, it was not. I would say. They still charge money. It's still a business body. I don't know,$2 ,000,$3 ,000 per wire or something per publication? It's based on word count. Okay, word count. Again, I think press releases are back, but not as a strategy. Press releases are back because of LLMs and GEO, which has made them relevant again, but not, again, as a strategy, more as part of, like, an infrastructure.

34:53Tell me more about that, because this is—I'm curious about what you mean by that. Is it because of LLMs? Is it just like, hey, should you have a press release every three months? Is that a good idea? If you have a story to tell, then—because if I don't get pulled by a publication, then this is the default. And I'm like, all right, I mean, it's not as good because no one wrote about you because you wrote about yourself, right? Press releases, like BusinessWire, like they help with authority, but that's it. It's an additional thing to do, but it is not the way, like you don't start with, okay, we have to go write a press release.

35:29You still think about like what's the story. Press release is not usually the best kind of model for being able to do effective storytelling because it's about news and facts. It doesn't usually bring an opinion as much. And so you want to do it so you can sit there and get the facts part. But if you're thinking about, like, all right, I really want to sit there and talk about my story, a good story from a company and a founder should have a perspective on issues. So a lot of times what you'll see companies do is they will issue a press release for the exposure for GEO. But they also will end up doing a blog post as well because they want to do the same thing.

36:06I mean, it's the same content or are they just... Blog posts, generally, you don't focus on. You have news elements, but you also have more opinion. That's built into it as well, whereas traditionally a press release is just facts. Yeah. You're talking to a different audience usually with a blog post versus a press release. Yep. Press release, you're rarely talking directly to your customer. If you're trying to do good storytelling and you're sending your customer press releases, you're probably selling yourself short. Right, right. So I think what Kelly's hitting on, you're thinking about what are the tactics match to the audience and the channel that you're ultimately trying to reach.

36:40What is your take on companies that are staying in stealth? Like, do you think stealth is, you know, this is a... I haven't figured this one out because, you know, I'm going to stay in stealth. And then there's this other point of view, which is always posting on LinkedIn every single day. Like, I've seen both, and I'm like, I don't know whether one strategy is the better. What...is there a better approach to this? I think for the probably 5 % of companies and stuff that actually have IP to protect, smart move. For the 95 % others, I think they just haven't figured out how to tell their story.

37:17But is it okay? I mean, most folks aren't like crystallized their perfect story. So they're just like, it's like how perfect does the story have to be when you're out there in the world? To quote Ferris Bueller, life moves pretty fast. Especially right now. And I think it's one of those where do you want to make sure that you have a good story to tell? Yes. Do you need to have a perfect story to tell? No. And so I would think about why are you in stealth? Is it because you don't feel like the product's ready and that you're going to be putting something out there where a competitor is going to gain an advantage?

37:53Or if you're not doing it because you're not ready, you damn well better get ready faster. because if you wait six months, the industry may be already defined by competitors. I feel like bigger companies are hiring comms people earlier just to kind of... Because effectively, I feel like there's competition everywhere on Day Zero. It's like, you know, whether you start right now and you feel like you have some proprietary thing, like in one month, you're like, oh, wait, there's two other companies basically doing the same thing. Yeah. One thing that's shifted a lot in the comms world, especially over the past few years, you're seeing more of the fractional.

38:27It used to be you either hired folks internally or you had an agency partner. There's kind of this hybrid model where you can hire a fractional kind of comms partner that there's a lot of advantages to. You can have somebody that's focused on your business, but at the same time, you're not making a huge investment up front, but they can still give you a lot of the guidance and perspective that you're looking for. It's also kind of a try before you buy for both sides. Like, a comp partner can sit there and say, like, hmm, business has potential, but until it proves, I'm not sure I'm ready to sit there and go into it long term.

38:59Same thing from a company perspective. So, I think one of those, like, there's, to your point around, like, businesses where they're hiring earlier, there's a way to sit there and, like, think about, okay, do I hire in-house, do I hire a fractional or a comp partner, or do I hire an agency? The model probably depends on, like, how mature is your space? Like if you have a nascent space that nobody's really invested in, and then all of a sudden you go try to hire a big in-house team, that's a very expensive kind of investment that's probably the business is not ready to be able to capitalize on.

39:31And so I think that's one of the other kind of important tests. How mature is your space or how nascent is it? Because that'll also help you to think about like how much storytelling can even be done in the first place. What do you think is, I mean, you brought this up, like in the last five years, what has changed most? about just whether it's storytelling, whether it's what's happening on the journalist side, whether it's about breaking through the noise. Like, what has changed about the work of getting your story out there that's different now than it was five, ten years ago? I would say five, ten years ago, it was very much a gatekeeping game.

40:10Like, you needed a journalist to write about you, so you mattered. That's not the case anymore. What has really changed is that founders now have the ability to access audiences through things like LinkedIn and podcasts and newsletters. And it's the one thing that I think people do get wrong, and there's a lot of conversation today about this, is just the role of media. And I think people are saying, oh, media don't matter. They don't matter as much. And that's just not true. Media is actually an incredible credibility accelerant. It's just not the only channel anymore. So I think less that storytelling itself has changed and much more of the distribution of it all.

40:55Owned channels are, I think, a much more powerful lever and have become much more powerful. And so even exec channels on social should be thought more of as owned channels because you own what's going to be happening through those channels, just like you do on your website or your email. I think one of the other things to keep in mind, too, is to not space chase. When all of a sudden a space or a channel becomes popular, everybody rushes into it, and then it becomes saturated super fast. LinkedIn, three to five... Yeah, it seems like everybody is doing daily LinkedIn posts. Yeah. Would you advise founders on that?

41:29It feels like that's what everyone's doing right now. Is that a good strategy? Is that what I mean? That's a good example of space chasing. Like, all of a sudden, LinkedIn's algorithm started more heavily promoting thought leadership. Everybody's tried to turn it into a thought leader. And now, instead of doing it on a very thoughtful kind of way every couple of weeks or once a week, now everybody's trying to do it on a daily basis. So you don't advise it. I would say... So looking for an answer here, guys. Yeah. Okay. So... I was getting there, but she's going to go now. What's the answer? I would say it's a good thing if you have something interesting to say.

42:03And if you don't, it's pretty strange. What if you have something interesting every single day? You think you have something. You must be the most interesting person in the world. That was a TF right there. I think a safe space to play in if you're just getting started on LinkedIn and you're pretty time-strapped because you're building your business would be one to two thoughtful posts a week. It would be having a really clear point of view that you continue to articulate in all of your posts. and then commenting on various industry trends as they kind of surface. Are there any strategies you're finding, and I'm not asking you to spill all the cool tricks you guys have, that are really effective nowadays that's sort of breaking through all the noise?

42:48I've always said something that I know I appreciated really from the time at Gusto is just data as a competitive advantage. And not like all founders have this, but some do. and, you know, or find ways to create your own proprietary data, you know, stuff, whatever. It's like ping people, get surveys to respond to things, and then turn it into that to an insight. I always say that, but it's a lot of work. I mean, but I'm not sure if there's any sort of tricks of the trade here. Yeah, there's kind of a couple. I think one is if you think about the formula of, like, what is genuine thought leadership, you need to have an issue, you need to have an opinion, and then you need to support it with facts and data.

43:29And so if you can think about structuring a post with that formula, generally those are the types of posts that perform the best. When you just have a lot of opinion, that usually starts to fall a little bit flat over time. And so I would encourage you to combine, take an issue that starts with the audience, then you sit there and have an opinion about what's going on with that issue, and then you have facts to actually support it. That's more full storytelling. and generally, you'll start to see conversation extension and conversation engagement. If nobody's ever engaging in your conversation, the value of that conversation is minimal.

44:05So there's certain channels or mediums that you're finding more effective now than a few years ago, even just last year or two years? It just really depends on the audience you're trying to reach, right? The channels are different audiences, or LinkedIn is still a go-to for those serving businesses. Reddit is like, especially when you're going back to the topic of press releases, for LLMs, they are having a huge value of Reddit content. And so engaging on a topic and an issue in Reddit that is not just about self-serving purposes, you can get great overall showing up in search and LLMs. It's grown significantly based off of that value.

44:55Another trick, too, is thinking about combining organic and paid. A lot of times there's kind of like a separation of a divide between church and state. What I found the most effective is if you are able to test an organic post and see if you're getting good engagement from it initially. If you put paid on top of that, like you will see. This is like the promoted kind of LinkedIn. Or it's like, hey, here's this sub stack that seems to be kind of taking off. Like, let's just drive more awareness to it. Well, and founder or exec channels actually perform much better than brand channels. And so you can actually set up and link an exec channel to be able to do paid boosting as well for organic posts.

45:36Do you think ghostwriting is like a good strategy for, I mean, clearly it's happening. It happens a lot in venture. It's like, I'm like, oh, hey, that's an amazing post. It's like, that's some ghostwriting. And I was like, oh, damn, I thought you wrote it. It's an interesting question to be asking comms people about ghostwriting. No, I mean, no, but what I mean by that is like, there's, you know, how do you get the authentic voice of the person, you know? I mean, I don't know if there's some founders like, don't touch it. I'm going to do it on myself. And you're like, okay, you kind of suck, but sure.

46:05I mean, on the ghostwriting question, I think it's fine. But to your point, like you think it's the founder who has written that. It's because they've been able to pass the test of like, would this person say this at dinner? You know, if you're a ghostwriter is providing you with TED Talks, I would say that's a no go. Storytelling is a team sport. Like you don't want any one team member just doing like doing all the lifting. If the comms person is sitting there and puppet mastering the exec, that's not good. And oftentimes I would encourage execs to sit there and say, like, your comms person is going to sit there and help keep you honest.

46:44So the more that you think about storytelling from a team sport, ghostwriting happens all the time. Rarely is it just ghostwriting purely 100 % of somebody writing on behalf of others. Like the best storytelling usually happens with a team together. For founders that are listening, if there's one thing you would tell them to start improving upon or starting doing in the realm of comms, what would be the one big piece of advice you'd give? And we'll start with you, Paul. Think external first. I think it's too easy to start by thinking about what you already know or understand inside your own walls or the group that you go with.

47:20Think more about the external audiences that you want to be able to engage with in the future and what they care about. Start external and then work internal. Kelly? Yeah. I would say don't lead with the announcement. Lead with the story. I would also say stop talking about yourself, your company, and start talking about what else is happening in the world. And then you can get to how that relates to what you're doing. Awesome. Okay. PR agency, worth it or waste some money for early stage founders? If you're ready, absolutely worth it. If you're not ready, you're just spending money that's not going to help you.

47:55And, Kelly, you can't say I agree. Okay. Let's see. It can be a value add. It also can be an expensive distraction. One journalist every founder should have a relationship with. Do you guys have favorites? I would say go with the one who is deeply covering your space and not go for the big tech ones. Yeah. Don't just go by the size of the audience of the publication. Go by the journalist that actually cares and spends the most time in your space. Okay. All right. I mean, most people go for audience. Press release, dead or alive? I guess we answered this one. Well, the biggest audience is not necessarily the most relevant audience.

48:33I know. I know. I know. Okay. Press release, dead or alive? Like I said, alive and well. All right. Well, I'm under the right circumstances. Founder posts on LinkedIn every day. Cringe or genius? Cringe. I would say it can be good if you have something good to say, but most of the time it's cringe. It's cringe. Okay. All right. So founders, you hear that? Don't do it. TechCrunch cover story still matters or overrated? TechCrunch is still super relevant to the tech audience. If you have a customer that you're trying to influence that are technology startups, definitely spend time there. If you are serving like...

49:09The trades? Yeah. If you are serving like small businesses, TechCrunch plays a role, but it's probably not the most important... It's not the publication that all your customers are ultimately reading. So it depends on what you're trying to accomplish, but there's absolutely relevance. Yeah. And I would say this goes back to the distribution conversation. Getting a really great tech crunch story, it matters. It signals credibility, but it's just not the only channel. It's not the only thing that's going to define you. Got it. Founder-led brand or company-led brand? That's a trick question. You go.

49:46You can have a good brand, especially on the B2B and the enterprise space. They are intertwined. It's almost a false binary. You can't sit there and say that you're going to have a strong company brand and no founder brand. And you can't just have a founder brand and no company brand. You need both. I agree. Oh, damn it. That is not what I want you to say, but fine. I'll give you that one. What would be the contrarian perspective? Or what would be the wrong answer? I'm just kidding. I actually agree. Biggest red flag when a founder pitches their story? Using the word revolutionary with nothing to back it up.

50:26Pretty sure Sam Altman used revolutionary. I'm pretty sure Steve Jobs did, too, for what it's worth. All sizzle and no substance. But did those guys have something to back it up? I don't know, actually. I mean, this is the most revolutionary phone. I don't know. I think he probably said that. What do you mean by substance? So if you're sitting there and making promises, but not necessarily showing the proof of how you're going to deliver on those promises, That's usually a bid right flag. We have the best this. We have the most amazing this. Nobody else is doing this. The most important part comes next.

51:02And if there's nothing that comes next, then... False fact. Yeah. The best comms is really just a good product. Agree or disagree? I would say that good product creates good stories. Good comms helps those stories get told. I would also say that there are probably plenty of startups in the startup graveyard that had great product that nobody ever heard of. Do you have a name? I'm not going to call anyone out. I'm going to be to pile on. She might want a job there in the future because I haven't done a product. All right. We're not talking shit about anybody. Everyone's great. What do you think?

51:38I think that you need both. Like, you can't, if you're winning today, especially with how competitive the market is, a great product is not enough and a great story is not enough. You need both. Hey, I really appreciate you both taking the time. I know I got a lot out of this. I know everyone else, too. I appreciate you all sharing your guidance and advice. And I'm pretty sure you're going to hit up by random people. So thanks for all of the guidance and advice. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us, John.

52:16that.