How Should Search Leaders Navigate the AI Shift?

0:00The Voices of Search podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything podcast network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast? I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth, and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit IHearEverything.com. Welcome to the Voices of Search podcast, a member of the I Hear Everything podcast network. Ready to expedite your company's organic growth efforts? Sit back, relax, and get ready for your daily dose of search engine optimization wisdom. Here's today's host of the Voices of Search podcast, Benjamin Shapiro.

0:42I'm Benjamin Shapiro and joining me today is Jordan Cooney, the co-founder and CEO of Previsible, the SEO and AI discovery agency. Jordan, welcome to the Voices of Search podcast.

0:55Jordan Koene: hey ben uh glad to be here but man am i does it feel weird to be on the other side i feel like um when pardon the interruption has guest hosts and it's not like the usual host and it's like what's that guy doing here wait he used to be on the show it's like dan lebitard hosting pti for the sports fans anybody who doesn't know what we're talking about i was the host of the Voice of Search podcast for about five years until I handed the baton to Jordan Cooney. But today, Jordan, I want you to be able to get some shots off because you've got some things that you want to talk about with the SEO industry.

1:33So I'm stepping back into the hosting chair. And I love it.

1:38Jordan Koene: I love it. You look good, Ben. You sound good. I mean, let's do this, right? You know how I feel about SEO and the community. I love you all. And let's talk nerds. Let's do it. So we want to talk a little bit about enterprise SEO and sort of the shift of how AI is changing everything. If you're losing 30 % in organic traffic, is visibility actually your problem? Tell me what's going on. No, visibility is not your problem. Visibility is also not your friend. Visibility is still basically nothing, right? It's a faceless, spaceless metric that is really a synthetic tool to help us try and understand what's happening in AI search.

2:25Jordan Koene: And so functionally speaking, it isn't really here to help us truly understand where we're going or what's going to happen, which is what we used to use in our tools. It's really just a synthetic formula of information behind these LLMs and AI tools. Bullshit.

2:49Jordan Koene: Visibility matters. Impressions matter. Awareness matters. Being in front of the people matters. Visibility is meant to be like a body count, an impression count of how much you're showing up in the LLMs. and I think the problem is not that you like your organic traffic is down people aren't going to google and searching and clicking but they are still searching and finding you so your overall visibility like you know that how much am I actually showing up hasn't really dropped right I mean, that's where we have to unpack this because functionally, there are components of what you share that are valuable, right?

3:35Jordan Koene: Impressions. And we've been seeing a lot of information come from Google, Bing earlier this year around impressions from AI experiences, AI overviews, AI mode, and the like, right? And that yes is useful. It's an indication of how well established your brand is showing up inside of these AI experiences. But it is by no stretch of the imagination a signal. It's basically noise. Let's get into that. So the difference between what you actually are trying to accomplish and then what signals you can measure are two different things. I very much as a brand owner care about how visible my company is.

4:18My ability to measure visibility like I would a click, like a unit of counting things is a totally different problem. So talk to me about what's wrong with measuring visibility and how it's changed from this sort of search to AEO, LLM, I don't even still don't know what to call it, from the pre-AI world to the post-AI world. How do we actually count where we are visible?

4:45Jordan Koene: So today, the way we go about formulating the visibility concept is by generating a bunch of prompts and these prompts then tell us where brands are showing up in the mentions and then it's synthesizing a set of variables such as citations or grounding queries which are used by the llm to help create this response right so these are the the the metrics or the the the tooling that's behind the concept of visibility but functionally we have to start from the beginning which is what is a prompt? Because every one of us is using these AI models in our own distinctive way, connected to our own distinctive set of data, and receiving significantly different responses.

5:37The underlying problem is that when you are trying to measure visibility, you're using prompts, but they are synthetic, right? They are, if I send all of this information into an LLM, it will give me a response, but the response is going to be different for every individual person. So it is a proxy, a general direction of like how you are showing up, not, hey, when Bob Smith from Topeka, Kansas typed in, where do I find a good SEO agency? Did Previsible show up? You're not actually getting the same level of actual verifiable real world information like what you did with SEO, which is I showed up for this query and I ranked in this number.

6:25There is nothing you can actually hang your head on as what's happening in the real world. That's the underlying problem to me.

6:32Jordan Koene: That is the underlying problem. And the unfortunate trade-off in that is we simply do not know more about how these models are going to evolve as they change. So model evolution becomes just as much of a challenge as the tracking of visibility. Because as we know right now, like right now when we're recording, you know, ChetGPT6 Astrea just came out maybe about a month or so ago. And we know very well that that model evolution has seen degradation on clicks. We know that there are less clicks because we can track that for all of our clients. And that is a helpful piece of information. But does it mean that you're less visible?

7:17Jordan Koene: Does it mean that you've disappeared from LLMs? Absolutely not. It's just that the functioning model evolution has an implication as to how they're going to display and inform the end user in these responses. So I'm managing SEO and I'm going through this transition and my CMO and my CFO are sitting in a room and they're saying, your traffic is down 30%.

7:45Your searches, all the stuff you're telling us, the leading indicators, what's happening with Google, like how much you're being searched, your queries, they're down 30%. Why am I paying you?

8:00Jordan Koene: Yeah, this is exactly, this is the crisis that we're in as an industry. If you're truly in the industry of organic, if you're truly in the industry of generating real customers, real viewers, real buyers from organic, the organic channel, then we're in a battle today to justify our values. The answer is CFO, CMO. Excuse my language. Yes. Calm the fuck down. Okay. Yeah, it is. It really is. Everybody relax. And yeah, the SEO traffic is down. And there's not a lot of traffic coming from AEO. Like we get a little traffic from ChatGPT. But look at revenue, right? People are using the LLMs. we just can't track them.

8:53This is an attribution problem, not a value of search content and the optimization work that we're doing. So just keep your pants on and let me continue to cook. And when revenue starts dipping, then you can start blaming me because we're seeing the only indicator that any SEO can hang their hat on. Look at direct traffic. It's skyrocketing. That's my traffic. That's not yours. That's not the marketing team. That's SEO or AEO or GEO or whatever EO I'm calling myself today.

9:29Jordan Koene: This is 100 % correct. Direct traffic. Attribution is as much of a mystery today as visibility is. And functionally, yes, the entire C-suite is looking at all of these metrics and asking what is our value. And our value is, the thing is you can't hang your hat on direct traffic just like you can't hang your hat on AI impact on your business. What you can focus on is where are customers going, what are customers doing, and to your point, are customers converting and why are they converting? Because the why is becoming so much more important to our ecosystem of work because the why helps us understand what are the citations, what are the sources, what are the information sets that LLMs and search engines are using to justify our brand to show up.

10:22Jordan Koene: Right. You're making my point. I think we're actually agreeing for once. I don't know if that's possible, Ben. I'm the SEO. I've been doing all the optimization. My traffic is 30 % down. Revenue is the same. We can't count what's happening in AI, but AI is clearly backfilling for the customers that are coming to us. If they're not coming from search and revenue is the same, they're coming from somewhere. They didn't click on the ads. You would be able to see that. So come on, what are we doing? That's now our most important channel. How do we optimize for that? That's what my team does. I'm more valuable than ever.

10:59Me and the brand team. But we'll save that for another podcast. Yes. And let me throw something else at you. ChatGPT, it's starting to be an actual traffic driver. So where we're seeing Google decrease by 30, GPT is going up a little, Claude, not so much, and the other LLMs, whatever, they're negligible. Should I be asking for more budget because I got to manage a ChatGPT crawl and optimization? You should.

11:25Jordan Koene: You should absolutely be asking for more budget and you should be absolutely thinking about what that budget will do because that's the big difference here. What your budget will do for ChatGPT is not the same activities as what you did for Google and SEO. What we used to do for Google and SEO is write a whole bunch of content, create a whole bunch of pages, then go back and optimize them and refresh them and link them better and do all of these things so that Google would find them and promote them and show them higher in rankings. That's not the way LLMs work. What we need to do differently now in ChatGPT or in LLM is functionally believe that we're in a brand renaissance, that we're in this brand revolution, and we need to start investing in the elements that are going to help our brand to be showcased inside.

12:14But I'm the SEO and I don't control the brand and I want the budget because, hey, I want to keep my job and I want to keep my team's job. And I think everybody's getting laid off because agents are taking over the world. So forget the brand team. I want to show that my work is actually paying off. And to me, the story I'm telling is revenue is the same. even if Google traffic is down, it's coming in direct. So people are using LLMs and there's just no click, but they're still using the content I'm getting to them through the LLMs. And then we've got this new channel that's starting to rise in ChatGPT because that's really the commercial LLM.

12:55And look at the conversion rate from visitor we get from that channel to dollars, to revenue. Tell me why ChatGPT stands out from other channels in terms of how it actually converts into revenue and why it's better.

13:14Jordan Koene: Well, the huge difference in how ChatGPT works when it comes to the conversion point is that the user is already pre-qualified. Right. So all the work and energy has been done by the model to help inform, educate, refine, shortlist, as they say often. How did they get that information? How did ChatGPT get that information, which helped the person get so much more educated before they actually got to our website? Right. It's all through their ability to create training and leverage grounding. So going right into search engines to retrieve what context it needs to create these responses. And so the interesting piece is over the decades of SEOs doing the work that SEOs do, whether you're in news and media, whether you're in commerce, whether you're just a blogger, you've been building content and assets that all these models have been trained to now use to create these responses and educate.

14:19Jordan, you got to work on sales, my friend. You're an SEO. Look, why are the people that are coming from ChatGPT turning into revenue at a higher rate than our other channels because they are educated, because they know they've done their research through the LLMs before they get to our site. And how did they do that research? Because I, the SEO team, told them what to do because my content, because of the work that I've been doing for the last decade, creating content, making sure it was structured, making sure it was clean, making sure it was well-attributed, gets to the LLM. The reason why we're seeing such a great conversion rate from this budding channel is because you've got a kick-ass SEO team, right?

15:01Jordan Koene: Yes. Give me my buddy. Right. I love that sales pitch. That's exactly the pitch we need every time. In Google's own documentation as to how to optimize for AI, they literally say that the best things you can do is to optimize for SEO. And so they know, Google knows, that if the good pieces of content, the quality pieces of content, the good assets, the good brand mentions are going to be used for SEO, they're going to also be prioritized by these models to help prioritize or shortlist brands in the response. I've still got this underlying problem. How did I end up being the SEO and you ended up being the voice of reason here?

15:42I feel like it's supposed to be the opposite. Maybe I'm out of touch with hosting the podcast.

15:47Jordan Koene: Or maybe this is always how we did it. I don't know. I just talk. Everyone wants to be an SEO now that AI is here. So that's the other problem. You still want to be in brand. What happened to the world? But there's still this problem, right? Hey, my traffic went away, but the direct traffic is up and I'm getting the revenue and cultivating this new channel through JATGPT. And man, is it on fire in terms of how much money it is sending us per person, not total. But you're the CFO and you're the CMO in front of me and you guys still have a dashboard and you need to be able to count something to evaluate my work.

16:25So what is the number that goes on the board slide if the click is disappearing and I can't give them the standard, like queries, rankings, crawls, all my SEO nerd stuff? Like, what do I start telling people we're doing? Yeah.

16:41Jordan Koene: Well, the first thing is that all of the leading KPIs that we used to use are extinguished, right? These concepts like crawl, these concepts like indexation, number of index pages. We've been selling this to CMOs for years. Oh, CMO, I'm going to get more index pages and that's going to increase my traffic and my traffic is going to go up in my revenue. That wasn't true. Right. It was true. It was true in a search only world. Very true in a search only world. But in an AI-driven world, it's no longer true because those KPIs don't necessarily tell us the whole picture as to why a model will choose us to be selected, right?

17:27Jordan Koene: And so the thing that we have to go back to right away, and you've already talked about it, Ben, already on the show, we have to focus on those lagging KPIs. Where are the sales happening? What are the products that are driving those sales? What are the categories that matter most? Because that's going to give us the indication as to where we need to look at information. You're not answering my question, which is I'm the CMO. I need to present to the CEO who presents to the board. And we're going through this fundamental change in marketing. And one of the pillars of our marketing channel was how we were performing in SEO.

18:02And now that looks bad. And even if we're doing good, I need to show people what direction we're heading. How do you communicate that to the stuffed golf shirts that are sitting around the big table in the other room deciding how much funding the company gets or whether people are getting their bonuses? I need to communicate my value to the rest of the organization, and I can't go with clicks. What do I do? Time for a one-minute break to hear from our sponsor, Previsible. So you're looking for SEO help, and you've got a couple of options. You could start replying to spam from agencies that claim they can get you to rank number one on Google.

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19:57Jordan Koene: Dollars and cents, where's the revenue coming from? What's the attribution of that? Where is that happening across our site? And then ultimately, how do I take that information to the AEO channel or GEO channel is I figure out where those direct sources are linked. because that to me is far better attribution than just saying, I'm going to put in a bunch of mystery prompts and try to figure out what's actually happening. The actual KPIs that come out of this will then look like the following. It'll look like, what are the cited sources that are making up the perception of my brand, the perception of my products?

20:35Jordan Koene: Do I have the actual coverage needed to show up, number one, to out-duel my competitors in this category or in this space. And I functionally believe that the biggest missing piece for most SEOs is that we're spending way too much time trying to mine and identify these inputs when the inputs are sitting in our own revenue tables, our own sales tables, our own sign-up tables. Those are the sources that are the first indication as to why consumers even care about our brand. Yeah, but I'm a CMO. So the only thing that I understood that you said was we need to figure out how many citations we have, right?

21:19You said, well, don't look at visibility. That's all from fake data. And you're saying coverage and citations. And so I can think of a body count because, you know, in my little PCMO brain, sorry, anybody that listens to my other podcasts, I can only say this is the metric I want to go up. And if this metric goes up, this team is doing well, which means marketing is going to do well. And so where are we getting citations? Now are we a PR channel? Are we just trying to get here? Are we back to backlinks?

21:55Jordan Koene: We are. We're back to a brand revolution in the organic channel. So these concepts that we use to measure things like the number of times that backlinks show up, the freshness rate of those backlinks. Another great example that I think is super pertinent to a lot of brands, especially commercial brands, is the refresh in volume rate of reviews. If you are not seeing a refresh of your reviews and you don't have significant volume, LLMs aren't going to take you seriously. Because if the last time you had a review was six months ago, you don't seem like a relevant brand anymore. And if the volume of your reviews is less than a third of your next closest competitor, you don't seem competitive.

22:43So now to gauge whether my organic channel is functioning, I'm looking at G2 reviews. But as an SEO team, are you spending all of your time generating G2 reviews? Are you publishing content and trying to get what used to be clicks and impressions and search volume? Don't you need the content out there? Isn't that a piece of it?

23:05Jordan Koene: It is. I mean, part of this is how we as SEOs control what we can control, right? We don't necessarily control how many reviews we can get on G2, but we can partner with teams. We can educate those teams. And we also can control some assets on our site. So in this brand renaissance that I like to keep talking about, one of the things that we need to be reconsidering are the core assets on our site that speak about our brand, our About Us pages, our pricing pages, our core company and informational pages, our support content, our help content. Reinvesting in these places can shift these reviews, can shift the sentiment and expectations expectation, and they're the core underlying asset about our brand that these models are using to create a response.

23:55All right. Now you sound like an SEO. So I'm going to be the CMO for a second here. We're going to switch chairs, which seems to be the theme of this episode. All right, SEO. Nice to meet you again. So you're saying that I'm supposed to evaluate your efforts based on the number of G2 reviews and whether we're being cited in these sort of synthetic queries that we're not really sure what they are. And your plan for this is to update the About Me page? Why?

24:27Jordan Koene: Yeah. It's actually remarkable. One of the things that we've seen for many of our clients and for a lot of the work that I've been doing over the past year is creating clarity for the brands we work with. You'd be surprised, LLMs do not have the integrity that Google has to creating an accurate and clear response. In fact, there's been many studies already done. There was one recently done by a brand called PKI, which is a LLM tracking tool, where they published a 50 ,000-page report. And this 50 ,000-page report was literally removed from Google's index within two weeks. But now six months later, that same report is still showing up in ChatGPT and is being cited as a source of information.

25:15Jordan Koene: Even though the entire thing is false and none of it is true for our customers in these AI models, cleaning up our own assets, cleaning up our own tools is the most important thing. And what I've noticed is a lot of B2B brands, They have really old help center content, 15, 16, 20 year old content that has old pricing data, has old features. We just work with a client that has literally done four name changes in five years for the same product. And that, and all the help content is referencing one of those four other names. And so what do you expect an LLM to do if that's the underlying training it has absorbed?

26:01Jordan Koene: it's going to give an inaccurate, incomplete answer. And so this old SEO work, this hygiene, cleanup, optimization work is still relevant. It's just targeting a more brand centric set of assets like our own help and support. This whole thing is astronomically confusing to me because we're sending out content into the world and we want people to write about us, but we can't track whether they're doing it. And I'm supposed to be able to figure out if what we're doing is working because I'm the CMO and I got hired because I'm data driven. What experiences do we have dealing with this type of underlying ground shift for the SEO channel community?

26:47When we were back at eBay, we both worked at eBay together in the SEO team. Was there algorithm changes that we ran into? Tell me about where the whole world has changed for SEOs like this before? And what can we learn from that?

27:01Jordan Koene: Hey, that's a really good question. And this has happened before. In fact, it did happen, Ben, when we were both at eBay. And one of the biggest shifts, as you recall, when we were both at eBay was the transformation of users going from computers and desktops to mobile devices. And the entire search world shifted while we were there from 2009 to about 2014, the transformation of user adoption on a device like this is the direction that we went in. And our entire measurement framework, the entire way we built eBay had to focus on mobile first, right? And that meant that our input metrics had to account for faster mobile speeds, different viewports, right?

27:52Jordan Koene: We as SEOs retrained ourselves to think about these KPIs, sell them to VPs of engineering and CMOs and make sure they understood them because users were going in droves to a mobile experience. Users will go in droves to more and more AI experiences, whether they're native to Google or some other platform, that doesn't matter. The models themselves are what matter and how you sell the story of what your brand has, what's important on your brand site, what's being consumed and used in these citations. These things will matter and starting to baseline those today will create a much more better outcome for any SEO.

28:30There's been lots of fundamental earthquakes, ground shaking SEO moments. panda and penguin and who knows poppy and whatever else google named all of the algorithm changes back in the day poppy wasn't one of them i don't think um what's different to me about this is the lack of data right when when the world changed from desktop to mobile and we had to rebuild the site and then optimize and make sure that we could track and worry about the page speed because that was going to impact how we were ranking. We could at least track how we were ranking. With this change, you just don't know who's showing up.

29:11You just don't know when you're showing up and then you're trying to optimize for something that essentially you're just like shooting at a dartboard, but you're not sure where in the room it is. And that's what freaks me out about this whole thing. And whether I'm the CMO grasping at straws, trying to understand if my SEO is still doing the job, or if I'm trying to prove that we should make better investments because SEOs are the ones that are actually optimizing for one of the two channels that matter, LLMs and brand, I'm not really sure what to do. If you're sitting down as an SEO advisor talking to the CMO, what are you telling them in terms of how they should digest this change at a macro level, and what should they look for in their SEO team?

29:58Jordan Koene: The first thing I tell all of them is follow the money. Follow the money. Okay, Jerry Maguire. And buying away, buying away, we have nearly 100 clients here at Previsible, and I can tell you that none of them make more money from AI than from Google. And so follow the money, right? Because functionally, Google's market share still dominates. It's still the largest source of refers, traffic, sales to any of our clients in any of our businesses we work with. And I think one of the most defining data points that I love to share with CEOs and CMOs is that Google has 14 products with 1 billion monthly active users.

30:44Jordan Koene: ChatGPT just passed 1 billion monthly active users a few months ago. So if I was to hitch my wagon, I would choose YouTube. I would choose Gmail. I would choose Google search. I would choose Gemini, all larger than ChatGPT. But the focus needs to be reshifted to where is the money and then how do we produce work that creates value adds to where that money is being generated. And I think that's one of the biggest things that I focus on. The people are still on Google. The people. The people are still on Google. The people are still on Google, but more and more are going to the LLMs. So you got to be able to do both.

31:21So don't give up on your SEO team. That's still your bread and butter channel and working with them to optimize for Google, which optimizes for Gemini is still the most important thing. But you also have to start understanding what's happening with the other channels and they have to start working on optimizing to make sure that they're getting those citations in the other channels. It's a two front war right now. And that I think is the big message to get across. Okay, Jordan, we haven't done this in a long time and I might mix it up a little on you, but we're going to go into the lightning round where I'm going to ask you some very personal deep, dark questions and they might be related to SEO.

32:00All right. This first question is about what the perfect day is for you. And I want to know, it says your perfect day on the day on your website says that it ends at a baseball field. I think that's not true. I think it ends with a cocktail in your head after the baseball game, but tell me what is your perfect day?

32:22Jordan Koene: Well, first of all, go Brewers. When we're recording right now, we're just inches away from getting into the world series. Two more wins over those Dodgers. That's something we can agree on. It's the ABD season after the Giants are eliminated. It's called anything but the Dodgers. anything but the Dodgers. That's right. That's right. So go Brewers. That's first and foremost, but a perfect day, obviously at the baseball field is being with my friends, being with my family. And, you know, many people think that baseball is boring. So it's a great place to bond and spend time together. So that would be, and we're not even talking about SEO here.

32:55No mention of work, no hanging out with Tyson and David and the rest of the team. You forget them. I'm just going to head to the field.

33:02Jordan Koene: They can come along. There's plenty of room in the stadium. I mean, it is the Voices of Search podcast. We got to bring in the team here. All right. Next question. Yeah. How?

33:14All right. Next question. I'll preface this with, you had me on my hands and knees laying down floor planks when you were remodeling your home. And now you live or live, now you work and practically live at an office in the mission in San Francisco, California, right next to OpenAI's office. How much of that thing did you renovate yourself?

33:38Jordan Koene: Quite a bit. You know, we are not quite as lavish as OpenAI. You need some art behind you. This looks like a hostage video. As your producer, what are you doing? Yeah, we have a lot more work to do in this office, but a fair amount. You know, I installed the counters. We moved in a lot of this furniture ourselves. Thanks to David, my co-founder. He put a little muscle into it himself. But a long ways to go. As you highlighted, Ben, there's still some artwork that needs to be put up on the walls. I've got paintings my wife did sitting in my garage. Just throw them up there. We can get a pre-visible, what do you call them?

34:14One of the lighted signs. Neon signs. Neon lights. Neon lights. Let's do it. Let's get serious. Let's do it. All right.

34:20Jordan Koene: Let's get it up. What's the best thing that you've learned in your years of hosting the Voices of Search podcast? There's something that I can learn and grow from every single guest in every single moment. It's actually remarkable how much I have grown by just being part of the show. I think we have something like over 1900 episodes at this point. And every single moment is like a single nugget of knowledge. So that's what a politician's answer. Cut the shit, Jordan. I want to point out that in my show notes here under this question, what was the best thing you learned of hosting the voice of search podcast?

35:00Bullet number one, you're dumb. And bullet number two, get a better producer, Jordan.

35:07Jordan Koene: I have been trying to get a better producer that makes me look younger and smarter, but it just doesn't work out, Ben. I can't grow hair, Jordan. I know. All right. Last one. Yeah. GEO, SEO, AEO, LMNOP, EO. What are you putting on your business card? This is simple. It's AI discovery. We don't know what these three letters are, and we are still transforming what this industry looks like. So until we really know what it is, it's AI discovery. We're still on the hunt. I want a hostile takeover over EO. So it can be, instead of, I think that's entrepreneur's organization. Sorry, you seem like wonderful people, but engine optimization.

35:47And it doesn't matter whether it's Google or search or an LLM or an agent. Any other letter you want to put in front of it. XEO, maybe. Yeah, but AI discovery sounds good too. Jordan, it's a comfortable seat. Mind if I take over a little bit more?

36:02Jordan Koene: Go for it. It's been fun. Good to see you. Thanks for letting me be your host one more time. The memories are coming back. And that wraps up this episode of the Voices of Search podcast. Thanks for listening to my conversation with Jordan Cooney, the co-founder and CEO of Previsible. If you'd like to get in touch with Jordan, you can find a link to his LinkedIn profile or visit his company's website, which is previsible.com. And if you haven't subscribed yet and you want a steady stream of search and content marketing in your podcast feed, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app or on YouTube.

36:34We'll be back in your feed next week. All right, that's it for today. But until next time, remember, the answers are always in the data. Thank you.