Apple at 50: The man who pitched Steve Jobs the "i"

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1:49We've had the price of oil reach almost its highest point since the start of this US Israeli war with Iran and front page headlines today. President Donald Trump telling the UK and many others to go get your own oil from the Strait of Hormuz. So we'll have a look at what impact all that is having. We're going to hear from the Chancellor about what help the government might or might not announce for those facing higher bills and when we're going to talk hospitality or chat to a boss in that sector as the new minimum wage comes into effect. And tech giant Apple celebrates its 50th birthday today.

2:25An iPod. A phone. This is one device. And we are calling it iPhone. We are going to hear from the man who worked with Steve Jobs to put the I in iPhone. Wake Up To Money with Sean Farrington. Good morning to you. Wake Up To Money on BBC Five Live. Apple, the second most valuable company in the world, with a market capital of more than three and a half trillion dollars. That's how much it's worth one of those mega tech businesses. It's one of the most recognizable brands in history still is today And it turns 50 today 1984 We introduced the Macintosh in 2001 We introduced the first iPod an iPod A phone this is one device

3:24And we are calling it iPhone. I'm going to bring in right now Ken Siegel, who was Steve Jobs' creative director for 12 years. Hearing from Steve Jobs there, talking at the launch of the iPhone back in 2007. Ken, thank you so much for joining us on Wake Up To Money. Well, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm happy to be here on this happy birthday occasion. Well, quite. And we've got lots to ask you. And no doubt if anybody's got questions they'd like to get in touch with us about 85058 is the number for people to use to ask Ken a question about his thoughts on Apple in the past, Apple in the future.

4:03I just wonder when you hear Steve Jobs, I mean, very, very famous speech intro he was giving out the launch of the iPhone. What does it bring to you having worked so closely with him from around 1988 to 2000, that sort of period when you hear him talking about a product like that? Well, I miss them. I miss them a lot. I think Apple misses them a lot. You know, time moves on and things change, but it's, you know, it's a romantic thing for me to look back and remember those days. And just to see and hear Steve on a lot of these videos, it just brings back all the memories because I met with a guy every week and we talked on the phone pretty much every day.

4:53I was living in New York at the time and I was commuting back and forth to California. And so I was three hours ahead of him and I would end up in these phone calls with him at like one in the morning in New York. and Steve would just be making a late call in California and I'd have to suffer for it. But honestly, it was those one-on-one conversations that I missed the most. He was a very articulate, smart, obviously,

5:27stimulating conversationalist, shall I say. And I miss the back and forth we used to have because those late calls were really, when there was an ad going out, a TV commercial or whatever, and there was like a late script to be approved or something, and we get into these talks about words. And he was such a good writer. I miss those times because I've had plenty of clients, I might add, who would drive me crazy with those conversations because you didn't have a lot of respect for them. But Steve was such a good judge of creative work and of products, obviously. And he just loved to be involved in all that stuff.

6:04So just sitting across the table from him, you know, they're great memories. He would put his feet up on the table and I'd look at the bottoms of his dirty feet because he'd take his shoes off quite often. It was just, you know, the consummate hippie turned entrepreneur, turned, you know, world changing businessman. And when we say you were his creative director for 12 years, that wasn't always at Apple. Can you just explain that relationship you had with him and where you were and how it grew? Yeah, when I get introduced, I often feel bad because nobody ever gets it quite right. In fact, it's hard to even describe how it went because my total time on Apple, I, well, let me put it this way.

6:54I mean, it's very simple. I worked for eight years with him at Next Computers. That's where he went after he left Apple. when he was in exile from Apple. But prior to that, I'd actually worked on Apple for two years when John Scully was the CEO. And then I went off and did some other things. And then when Steve came back to Apple, he wanted to sort of get the band together again. So he recruited me and his old ad agency, and we're all united to do it one more time. And I got to say, I had worked at the agency before. I had worked with Steve before. but not on Apple. I have worked on Apple before, but not with Steve.

7:37And this was a chance to do all three of my favorite things in one job. You know, the great agency, great client, and Steve Jobs. And it was exactly as advertised. It was, you know, looking back at it, I always, it sounds so great, you know, I miss it so much. But, you know, at the time, it was work. we didn't know what was going to come of it all. So it's like anything. You look back and it seems different than when you're actually living it. Well, this is a nice moment to hear a bit of the world famous Think Different ad campaign. Let's just catch a bit of that. While some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius.

8:22Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones who do.

8:36That was around that time, Ken. Yes, that was really kind of a big career moment for me personally. And I don't want to take credit for this by any means because I was part of a really good team. But that was when Steve had just come back to Apple. The company was near bankruptcy, as Steve would explain later. They were three months away from bankruptcy. We had no new computers to sell. That wouldn't happen until the iMac came out eight months later. So what are we going to do? And so we got together and we decided that we could use a brand campaign to sort of set the stage for what's to come.

9:15And Think Different was born of that. And Steve was very emotionally attached to that campaign. He thought that the words think different so perfectly captured the essence of Apple. And that's what the purpose of this campaign was. I can get into a little more detail there if you'd like. But it was to really remind people of who Apple was and who Apple still is and what's to come. And that we make computers for these kinds of people. You know, that these are the people Apple respects. And the concept of the campaign was when you share your values with people, when you show them who you respect in the world, the people you think, the people you believe in who inspire you, it says a lot about who you are.

10:05So we were going to tell the world who Apple celebrates, and that would tell everyone what Apple is all about. So that's how that campaign was born. And it did a very good job of introducing iMac and things after that, even though I should point out, I can be honest now, all these years later, we had no idea what was coming. Steve said, we got great stuff coming. You got to trust me. So, of course, we did. And it worked out very well. I'm very interested to hear how some of the essence of what you were trying to create as a team back then can be applicable to the modern day. We've had messages coming in about that concept as well.

10:48But just before we sort of fast forward so far, Ken, you mentioned it was a team and how much you were a part of that. But it is fair to say, isn't it, that you are the man behind the little eye that is at the front of the phone, the pad, the Mac, when the iMac came about. That was your little baby at one point, wasn't it? It was, and it's a perfect example of not knowing what's to come. The concept of that first computer, that first iMac, that was the first new product coming out of Apple's and Steve's return. So everybody's waiting for it, and it had to be perfect. Everything had to be perfect, of course.

11:30And the concept of the computer that Steve and Johnny Ive had come up with was the easy way to the Internet. Because back then, it's hard to imagine now, but it wasn't so easy. You had to get a modem and configure your computer. And this was all built in. So you just turn it on, punch a few buttons, and you have an email address, and you're surfing the Internet. it. So honestly, to me, it was a little bit more of an exercise in logic than it was in creativity. A little self-deprecation there for you. Yeah, just a bit. You know, I for internet and Mac for Macintosh, it made a lot of sense. But Steve, being Steve, he wasn't ready to take it.

12:15In fact, his first reaction was, I hate it. You know, and when you got that strong a reaction from him, that you knew you were in trouble. So that first meeting, I had five names for him, and I saved IMAP for the end because I knew it was the killer. My whole group did. And we got to that, and he soured on it. And I guess I'm telling the story in a little bit of the wrong order because he had in his head a name that he liked. It was like, we need a name in a week, basically, because the computer was going into production, and he needed to know what name to put on it. So he had a name. That's how the meeting started.

12:57I've got a name that I really like. And if you guys can do better, fine. But right now, I love the name. I'm, excuse me, Mac Man. That was his choice. Right. And one of his guys had come up with the name and he loved it. He thought it sounded like Sony Walkman. Oh, it's so cool, you know. And Steve was that way. You know, up to the end, probably, he had that boyish enthusiasm about things. And he thought that was a cool name. And we all kind of gagged. Like he said, let us go back to the agency and think about that one. So, you know, we had to come back in a week with new names and had a few more.

13:40But I had iMac in the bag after he rejected the new ones. you know I pulled that out that went out again and this time there was progress he said I don't hate it this week but I still don't like it so he wanted us to go back and work some more and then you know I made a phone call at some point to one of the people up at Apple who informed me that Steve had the name put on the machine he had shown it around to his inner circle and people loved it and that's what we're going to be going with and I was like holy cow I mean, there was no moment of fanfare or anything like that. It was just iMac. So, you know, and a cute ending to that story is, it gives you an idea of the way Steve thought about things.

14:26Months later, maybe even a year later, I remember talking to him about that episode. And he said that what pushed him over the edge was just the way it looked on the machine, that he thought that small I and the capital M, just four characters on that the machine had a personality and it seemed to fit that personality he thought design wise it was the best name just out of interest ken what were some of those other ones that you were putting forward that he you know at any point steve jobs could have gone oh yeah we'll go for that right well unfortunately now we're in the area this is like i'm on the the squirming witness on on the stand uh because it's i have trouble even remembering them they were awful looking back at them they were just awful um why can i think i saw them in print recently somewhere i think i'm almost almost deliberately awful just so that you knew that the one with the best chance had had a opportunity to hang there just um yeah before we fast forward into the the future uh ken uh we've got we've got a few guests that we've had on our program today I've got Simon Noble with me, who's the chief executive of CISAM.

15:40We've been talking about a variety of things. But Simon, I just wonder how, you know, as an Apple consumer, as I know you have been, what impact that has had? You'll probably be talking for many over the decades. Yes. As a self-proclaimed fanboy of Apple, it's that moment of the Think Differently and that clip of him on the stage launching the iPhone is iconic, right? that's been, and I think it has inspired many businesses in a lot of different ways from, you know, Simon Sinek codifying that communication in Start With Why to the way we think about our business. And, you know, it's an emotional connection.

16:18And the way we think about how we want to engage our customers is we want to be the most loved and trusted. And they are emotions that people want to connect to. And that really came from what Jobs did in that moment and how people felt about that brand as they go forward but it's it's the reason they connect is because of the simplicity of the way that the that they built and designed and I remember those great boxes with the bright colors coming out and we had those and we thought they were amazing things but it's you know we think about something that's really complex in my world is you know how do you transfer from one payroll system to another it's hugely complex my team think I'm crazy because I I just say, well, we should make it like Apple because you stick one phone next to another phone and it updates and it upgrades and it transfers.

17:03It should be that easy. And they set the bar, absolutely set the bar. And Emma, Emma Wall is with the Chief Investment Strategist for Hargreaves Lansdowne. Do they set the bar in many other ways as well when we talk about these huge tech companies and what it is they actually need to produce? Yeah, I mean, if you had had the foresight to invest in Apple when it first IPO'd in, you know, 1980, you'd be looking at a return of 249 ,000%. So it's not just, you know, the fact that they have exceptional products and, you know, and systems. They've also sold a dream. And I have to say, you know, credit to the guests because marketing is a huge part of that.

17:44And that was something quite new at the time that brand was as important as the product line. And we've seen that kind of consistent performance when they've lent into that brand, they've lent into the concept of lifestyle alongside these very compelling product launches that we now, candidly, I mean, we couldn't do without, could we? But yeah, the investment success has been pretty much unparalleled. So, Ken, we had a message from Nick in Wokingham who says, what might be the next game-changing product launch? When you see the world we're in now, this is a great time to talk to you, not just a 50th birthday, But people can feel new technology around them with the advance of artificial intelligence, whether it's the headlines they're making or even the advances in their life.

18:29But where do you see and how does Apple tackle what the next product launch might be? That's a pretty hairy question because, I mean, we can have a whole discussion about today's Apple and how different it is from the Apple of old that I knew. and the whole world changes and a lot of Apple purists don't feel as excited by the current Apple because they remember that older Apple was Steve Jobs and it's hard for me to condemn the company because the world has changed and Tim Cook has done an amazing job changing with the times and keeping Apple so super profitable and all that but I personally find myself lamenting the lack of a great visionary at the top.

19:23And Book is a great COO and has done really, really well as a CEO. But I don't feel that what we used to have when Steve would get on the stage and unveil his products and be so emotionally invested in them. And just to, by the way, real quick to comment on something that was just said. And the thing that was so different, I mean, it's not like Apple's the only account I've ever worked on. And I did a lot of time on Intel and Dell and BMW and IBM. I have never met at any of those companies a CEO who had the passion for marketing that Steve did. It was equal to his passion for innovation. He loved marketing meetings because he was just a guy in a room throwing out ideas and reacting to other people's ideas.

20:16it was a unique experience if you're a seasoned ad guy because you just don't meet people like that. So it is interesting. Apple was, you know, what I think made it what it is, is that, you know, it fired on all cylinders like that. You know, amazing products and amazing marketing and all the enthusiasm and hard work that went into the marketing side as well as the product side. So if I asked you, Ken, in this day, I mean, it's the second most valuable company that we talk about. So they're clearly not doing too badly. But if I said to you to finish the sentence, Apple needs something, what would you say?

20:56I still go with visionary. I know they've got some great people, you know, in the different, you know, heading up different sections of the company. But it's just Apple has always been the visionary company, but I don't feel like they are led by a visionary. So that's what I think they need. And I know there's all this talk going on about a possible successor to Jim Cook, and I don't know when that happens, but I'm anxious to see where they go in the next few years. How would you try and market the artificial intelligence? If that's what the new technology is, How would that translate to a product that everybody loves?

21:40Well, this is where I think Apple is going to succeed, even though I'm contradicting myself of the last year, because like everyone else, I watched Apple seemingly falter, announcing at the Worldwide Developer Conference two years ago now, this Apple intelligence and promising things and even advertising things that weren't yet doable. And I thought, boy, this is just a major stumble. I couldn't imagine that happening to Apple. It's sort of fumbling the launch of this product. But lately, I've been reading more about how genius that is. I'm not sure if it was planned, but Apple's letting everybody beat themselves up and build, you know, multi-billion dollar data centers.

22:33And they're not doing any of that. They're just making deals with, you know, Google and OpenAI. And they're going to work it in, you know, this product that is continually delayed, the intelligent Siri. I think when they crack that, which can't be too far away now, I think people have a short memory. I don't think people watch this stuff as closely as we do. And I think when Apple has that product and make it really, really usable, you know, there's such a massive audience of people with their iPhones waiting to have this thing turned on. I think they'll do pretty well. Ken, do you ever think now, you know, this is fast forwarding on many decades.

23:18What did we create? Just thinking how the smartphone is treated in my own household. You know, kids calling me out on being on it. us now having a corner where it needs to go to stop us being distracted by it that do you do you worry about the the consequences of some of this and what that's led to well i do um i mean i think like you know any great invention will be misused i mean I have a much bigger problem with the internet, just being the internet, because anytime I'm talking to friends or colleagues, family, whatever, and we're talking about the great problems in the world, I always say, yeah, okay, internet, you know, because it's being able to mobilize people, create these tribes that have awesome power spanning, you know, geographic boundaries.

24:21And it is a force of incredible good, but also incredible bad. And so to me, it's not so much people fixating on this stuff because I think it's a fantastic tool. I grew up loving technology and continue to do so. But I understand we need to be mindful and what they're trying to do now with some regulating of the Facebooks of the world. I suppose there's a way forward I'm not skilled in what those things might be but I think there's so much good to be to be gained from all this stuff that I am not an anti-technology person put it that way I love technology we very much know that Ken Siegel Steve Jobs, creative director for 12 years thank you for your time Wake Up To Money with Sean Farrington.

25:19Good morning to you. Wake Up To Money on BBC Five Live. Hope you are well on this Wednesday morning, the 1st of April. Plenty for us to be getting through in the next hour. I would like your thoughts on all of it as well. If you're a boss running a business, minimum wage kicking in today. Your thoughts there. Support, is it on its way or not for energy, fuel costs, hearing expectations of food costs to be going up over the course of the year as well. Much impact being had on sectors right across the country. I've got Simon Noble here with me in the studio, chief executive of Cezanne HR, so provides HR and payroll software solutions for businesses.

26:02Simon, very good morning to you. Very good morning to you. It's great to be here again. Thanks for being with us, Simon. You have one of those businesses that what you do gives us a lot of insight into what businesses across the country might be thinking. And also, you're running a business yourself. On that one, running your HR business, has that changed at all? The prospects for the year ahead changed at all for you, given what we're going through at the minute? I think you've said it just there, is that there is a headwind in the market which is driven by this hesitancy from people who are experiencing the change in the living wage and the minimum wage.

26:38There are fewer vacancies going out in the market as well. So you're dealing with those kind of things as a business. You know, we're a critical business system. So from that perspective, we're doing still pretty well. But you definitely get the tone of, you know, people are struggling to see how this is all going to fall out and be affordable for them. We've got Emma Wall with us as well this morning, chief investment strategist for Hargreaves Lansdale. Good morning to you, Emma. Good morning. Where are we at now in terms of price movements, price expectations? Again, the front of the Financial Times reflecting on how the month of March, as we go into April today, saw the biggest monthly rise for that Brent crude oil that we've been looking at every single day through the month of March.

27:25Have the prospects changed given some of the latest words we've heard? Yeah, I mean, as you know, you cover it daily as well. We're sort of living in a strange era where instead of a market cycle lasting sort of five to seven years, it seems to last 24 hours. And you have, you know, in each given week, you can have some days where actually stocks do well. And that's what we're experiencing over the last 24 hours. So looking at the Asian markets, which obviously have been up even longer than you have, that's looking quite positive at the prospect of the war ending. but we're really in a market that's been driven by narrative rather than by action.

28:02And so that positivity only gets sustained if we do begin to see kind of foreign policy action. So I think, you know, a welcome reprieve over the last 24 hours, but unfortunately not the end of what has been significant market turmoil in the commodity markets, but also in the equity and bond markets. Yeah, so Simon, there's that talk of the foreign policy action decisions. What are you expecting from the British government domestically? As a business, you pay your taxes. What do you demand of a government in this scenario? Well, I think it's protection from an economic perspective. We've seen that the economy is sort of flatlining as a whole, and you're trying to get them to do something that's going to stimulate growth, both stimulate the, reduce the stress that's been pushing on both sides in terms of both wage, inflation and tax increases.

29:00There are a lot of levers that they have to pull, but it's around choosing the right ones to create a bit of growth and allow people to feel a little bit less under pressure. Well, let's hear a little bit of what Rachel Reeves has had to say, the Chancellor has had to say, about what might happen next support-wise. We've seen the petrol price go up to over 150 pence a litre to its highest in two years, 20p more than the start of the war, according to the RAC Motoring Organisation. People are thinking about where those energy bills might go later in the year as these wholesale energy costs of oil and gas stay higher for longer.