Full tank? Empty bank

26:46If we can't do that, then quite frankly, a lot of people will suffer who didn't need to. How many? It depends. Given where we are, given the fuel poverty, it will increase significantly over the winter. It'll probably be between probably 10 % to 15 % of the population. Is this not something, given all the lessons learned of recent years, that the energy companies themselves can be right on top of? They are not allowed to use government data to target even their own support. Essentially what the NT companies have done is go to the government and say, can you please just give us this data so we can go out and do this on your behalf?

27:26And government just simply hasn't. So when you, as a consultancy at Stonehaven, as you are, you know, you will be working with lots of businesses. What kind of businesses are you working with and what are they telling you about this? I just wonder where this comes from, the conclusions about this. So we work with major energy utilities, networks, and generators. On this, specifically, the utilities, your retailers, so your octopuses and your eons, they want to be able to offer more support to customers. They can target based on the information that they know, so where they are and what the consumers consume in terms of energy but what they can't do is integrate that with the sorts of data the government has so that's a mix of benefits data hmrc data um as well as health data in particular um suppliers don't always know exactly who amongst their customer base desperately will need support this window to run things like um say machines that um help that are essential for health like you know dialysis machines there's all those bits of bits of information out there that could actually enable all these companies to do.

28:39In fact, generally want to help make a difference and just not being made available to them. Okay, Adam, thank you. We'll see how this progresses in the coming weeks. We're talking about those certain increases in the energy price cap that's kicking in, but also today the reductions of VAT on those electricity bills as well. It's a lot to get heads around. So let us know what you're seeing in your bills in the coming weeks and your usage. as well. Once again, we've heard weather forecasts all week on Wake Up To Money about warmer days. Does that change things? Are you having the debate yet depending on where you are in the country about the heating coming on just yet?

29:19Do you have a date in mind where you're holding off until let us know, 85058. It was Adam Bell there, energy partner at the consultancy Stonehaven. It's 5.32. Fall flavours are waiting for you at Whole Foods Market. Cozy picks all through the store. like maple leaf cookies from 365 brand. Swing by the bakery for pumpkin cheesecake, here for a limited time, and pumpkin turmeric bread freshly baked every single day. Sip the season with 365 brand cinnamon spice coffee and pumpkin spice creamer. While you still can, spice up fall at Whole Foods Market. Balance your trading strategy by adding futures.

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30:33Wake Up To Money with Sean Farrington. Good morning. It is Wake Up To Money on BBC5 Live. So many messages coming in about, well, whether it's the cost of diesel, whoever's driving their electric cars at the moment, getting in touch, talking about the difference in price there. We'll go through a few of those in a moment. Loads on AI as well. Thanks for your messages after I ask where you're seeing it in your industries at the moment. as we talk about the ripple effects it can have. Ben says, Morning, Sean. I'm a lawyer. I see AI having a significant, ultimately transformational impact on legal practice.

31:10He says he addresses it in several chapters of your book. Hope you wrote it yourself, Ben. No AI use for that just yet, please. Big Gaz, been in touch saying, Morning, Sean. Great show. Really annoyed how fuel poverty is spoken about. We talk about increases in fuel prices as big, tough and challenging, but this is beyond that. It's like ambulances taking five hours to get to people with a trite apology. What on earth is going on in our country? We just have to keep absorbing this mess every day. Sorry for the doom and gloom. Thank you for your message this morning, Gaz. And John says, I saw a video of a bricklaying robot in China in the construction game.

31:44We struggle to find enough bricklayers, so timber-framed houses have become a more practical option to house builders, benefiting us carpenters. Even with this mechanism on the building site, we still have a shortage of labour. it's crucial to the rest of the development that this part of the build is complete as it opens up all the other tasks required to complete the construction so I'm all for automation at this point of the job very interesting that Lee Lee Nolan who's with us this morning boss of the big tech data management digital infrastructure business it's Hachi Vantara that you know many you can talk on the one hand about threats to people's jobs but when we sit here every day talking about shortages of labour in many industries lots might think blimey if that can actually enable me to crack on with my job that could make the world a difference it's the upside to just where it's used uh ai in general and through robotics is huge um you know you can you can get uh development at scale and at speed um and you get advances in in um knowledge so what potentially we would The forecast would have taken us 100 years, might now only take us 10 to get there.

32:56So the advance is almost beyond imagination at the moment. And it will have profound impacts on productivity and how we can move forward, not only as a country, but globally, how we move forward, which will be absolutely astonishing. There was a legal comment there from one of your listeners sending in. The knowledge-based industry is certainly feeling the impacts of AI. So if you are an expert in a field based on knowledge, obviously now people are leaning towards AI an awful lot. So those industries are having to transform and adopt very quickly to ensure they stay ahead and that the demand for their services are still there and at the same levels, if not growing.

33:34What about alongside that? People would be very sort of sensitive to what's going on in their world of work because you see those changes every day. in terms of what is behind this technology, the environmental impact of this, the cost of it, and whether overall at the moment this is really worth it. People hearing about the electricity prices being as high as they are in the UK and there's a huge amount of demand from the industry that you're involved in for that energy as well, that people might wonder, So, like, is this actually going to be benefiting me and my home overall? There's lots of companies that will see the benefit of this, but will people see it?

34:19Are the environmental impacts sort of outweighing that at the moment for individuals? Yeah, look, the debate around data centre build out globally and in the UK is a hot topic. Certainly in Hitachi, I'm part of a wider Hitachi group of, you know, we're a$70 billion business worldwide. Part of that is Hitachi Energy, which is all about the investment in renewable energy. Back in 2023, Japan and the UK signed the Hiroshima Accord, which was around collaborating around clean energy. So I think if we do it the right way and we leverage the technologies that are available, actually minimizes the impact.

34:56Right. And there can be benefits there. I think from an individual person, it depends on their individual circumstances, the benefits are there. But I think the benefits are there. If you can deliver something at scale that's automated, there's an argument there that gives you an awful lot of economies of scale and therefore price points, productivity improves. And actually, if the economy is moving forward, we know a lot more people benefit from that as a nation as well as globally. So there are certainly benefits there. What did you make this week of GB Grid, the concept that Andy Burnham talked about of there being a state owned authority body that will be competing with the likes of National Grid and SSE and Scottish Power of making connections to the electricity grid?

35:44Improving competition is the pitch, enabling businesses perhaps to do it themselves as well. Is that something you'd be interested in, like building and investing, leading the way, project managing effectively your own connection to the grid rather than going to somebody else and wait, getting in the queue, which might take a decade? Yeah, look, I think the devil's always in the detail, as we say, but at a conceptual level, it makes perfect sense. I think the challenge with energy at the moment is we are open as a country to the global wholesale market. So opening up various extra energy areas, we still are beholden to wholesale prices.

36:23I think if there is the ability to be more in control of our energy and therefore the price points that it produces, I think that's a good thing. So a conceptual level, yeah, I think it's a good idea. Thank you to Kieran in Harpenden, who's been in touch, saying, I recently bought an electric mini, which was half the price of the new list price after three and a half years. It's amazing to see the cost savings. A full charge cost me£2.50 during off-peak saver rates. with the cost of petrol. It's a great way to save on monthly costs as an initial investment for the EV charger of£1 ,000 to£1 ,500.

36:57But you should see that as adding value to your home. And Martin in Cheltenham says, fuel prices, my cousin in America, complaining yesterday they're paying$7 for a gallon of diesel. He didn't like it when I was saying back to him, I wish it was that cheap here because our cost by an American-sized gallon would work out at over$10 a gallon. Impressive maths in there as well, Martin, not just transferring the currencies, but the size of a gallon too. And on jobs, AI, DJ's been in touch saying, I'm a founder of a tech scale up in London. Software engineers were writing code. We started playing with AI two years ago.

37:3215 months ago, AI was writing 80 % of the code. Now it's 99%. Software engineers now reviewing code rather than creating it. It's demoralizing for the majority of them. Their job now is completely different after only two years. and this is common in the industry. Thank you for those insights, DJ. Let us know, 85058, what's happening with you. Jane, just, you know, those habit changes with people with their cars, if they have the money to invest in the electricity infrastructure and a newer electric car, are you starting to see people move away from the likes of, you know, diesel and petrol cars because of the high prices we're talking about this morning?

38:17Actually, I think a story of electric vehicles is that people have been much slower to take them up than the government had intended, which of course has been a problem for the big auto manufacturers because the government gave them targets to produce a certain amount of cars. And yet, it was very difficult for them to sell them because people didn't want them. Now, clearly, you know, energy prices are very elevated. And we've got to mention that this isn't really the fault of the UK government. This is because there is a war in the Middle East right now. But that is clearly giving people an incentive to look again.

38:50But we've also got to mention, you know, hybrid technology in here. And I believe that hybrid technology, which of course is multi-hybrid and plug-in hybrid, now accounts around about 28 % of our sales in the UK. And And that perhaps is a compromise that a lot of people are much more perhaps willing to assume. Perhaps a lot of people are still nervous about EV and not just because of the cost to invest, perhaps in the technology at home. But they're worried about, you know, can I really get to my destination and can I really, you know, get my electricity on the route up on the motorway? And even if that's OK, what's going to be the resale value of these cars?

39:33I mean, we've just heard a secondhand EV can be relatively cheap relative to the wholesale price at the beginning. So there is a risk here. So I think for many people, they are now considering hybrids. But you still see a lot of people still going for petrol because that's what they're familiar with. David Maidstone's been in touch regarding diesel prices. I'm enjoying driving my Tesla electric car with slightly quieter roads, trying not to look too smug at service stations. Just been on a 366 mile road trip, cost£33 or£9 a mile. Diesel car at 60 miles a gallon would have cost£55 or£15 a mile.

40:10I expect we'll see a significant uptake in electric cars. What about the coach and bus industry as well? When we talk about the average price of diesel, being on the brink of breaching£2 a litre, according to figures compiled by the RAC, many seeing more than that as it is. Let's speak to Jason Edwards, who's Managing Director of Jason Edwards Travel. 19 strong fleet of coaches for holidays, trips, events, headquartered in Pontypridd in South Wales. He's Deputy Chair of the Coach Tourism Association as well. Jason, morning. What are you paying for your diesel at the moment? Yeah, good morning, Sean.

40:47It's been somewhat a disaster, you know. And again, I can give you the spot rate for diesel yesterday. But that changes again today. You know, so, you know, where we were looking, say, 12 months ago, eight months ago to today's prices. That's an increase of£700 ,000 for our fleet. As a small to medium-sized enterprise, how on earth we can navigate and manage that crisis and increasing costs. Really, we should be putting that on to the customer, but how on earth can we demand the customer to increase its prices and to supplement that? Yes, we're in a dreadful situation and less help has been brought forward by the government soon there's going to be a lot of industries or a lot of companies going to suffer through the winter.

41:29How literally do you cope when there is a cost change like that when you're running a business? We really try and you know be the best we can we run in new carbon friendly sort of Euro 6 engines we try and you know limit the amount of fuel that we use in whether it's idling time or you know quicker routes and stuff and on top of our maintenance but ultimately you know our coaches run on diesel and you know we let the Hesler say then of the Treasury, we're demanding a percentage increase on the price of fuel. And really, it's turned the Treasury into a profit-making centre. But when you... Was it£700 ,000, you say, the difference?

42:08Increase, yeah, increase, yeah. The increase. So literally, is that dipping into cash reserves? Is it borrowing the money? Is it putting up prices? Is it making spending cuts elsewhere? How do you, when you're running a business, you know, Many of us don't run a business, so haven't got those sort of spreadsheets and how that works in our mind. But when you hear that scale of number, how do you cope in the short term at least? It's across the board, really spot on. You know, we look at reduced costs. You know, we look at, again, one of the things that we've got to look at is I've got to put my own money into the business.

42:42You know, if we break even this year, we've done well. You know, a lot of businesses are not going to make any money this year. One of the concerns I always got is staff. You know, we always want to pay our staff a fair wage, you know, a living wage. We want security, safety. We want to see our staff, you know, come to work with a smile on their face. And how on earth can we turn around and tell our staff that there's no pay rise this year, you know, with the cost of living increasing? So, you know, unless the government come in and step in, it's having an adverse effect really on what they're trying to achieve.

43:11We are supportive. We employ local people in regional areas, you know, a mix of engineers, office staff, cleaners, accountants, you know, secretaries and so on. and of course the headcount will suffer which is awful to say and with a looming winter ahead it's a concern of how many coach companies are going to be left when it comes to Easter next year If the diesel price does stay this high for months now what will you have to do when you talk about jobs and headcount and who you're servicing? Again, it's a million dollar question really What we try and do is we try and safeguard everybody. We try and safeguard the business.

43:52And reducing headcount or costs is not something that's on our agenda. We want to run a safe, compliant business that everybody can be proud of. The customers take great comfort from booking with us and traveling with us. But then again, we've got to really think outside the box now. Do we downsize our freight, sell some coaches through the winter? Do we really need the luxuries maybe or the necessities that we've got today? and we are talking and we're passing that cost on to the consumer. You know, we work heavily with National Express and you can pick up a return ticket from Cardiff to Heathrow at£0.27 per person.

44:26You know, that is incredible value for money. But that's not sustainable. So some way or something, the price of the ticket has got to go up. And again, you know, that comes back to the consumer, you know, the customer. They are going to be expected to be paying more for that service, which undermines really what the government's principles are all about. And which routes, trips that you do do you think are most under threat if you're also, you know, we hear it from the airline industry, don't we, about, you know, they will change their routes as costs change and they try and figure out which ones are worthwhile doing and which ones aren't.

45:01For you, doing your holidays, trips, events, what's most under threat? There's two things really jumping out to me, right? One is a real negative and one is a positive. Our core child business, now we work with all the major incoming tourism companies flying into the UK. Business is slowing down. Now, when you account that tourism in the UK is with 5 % of the total GDP, it affects the hospitality industry, the travel industries and so on. We are now seeing a slowdown in people coming into the UK because we're not as attractive as we used to be. Our costs have gone up. It's difficult to get into the UK where visas, duty-free shopping is not what it used to be.

45:40and again all those quick wins if government you know sits down and talks to the experts and change things overnight the flip side of it our coach holiday business has gone up by 52 percent year on year but people now are aligning to the cost of travel and diesel and thinking right okay we need to go on holidays well what's the quickest sort of value for money solution so we've seen a massive increase now when people new customers and that as well which is great Where are they going? UK, Europe, across the board. This is also being felt in France. I took a call yesterday from two partners that I was in northern France who were also feeling the pinch with tourism, as they say, being affected over there.

46:20So it's a global sort of problem. It's not just a British-UK problem. It's affecting the people in France. But I think that's all we're asking for is we want to pay our taxes. We want to pay our way. But we don't want to turn the Treasury into a profit-making centre. And we need to see a reduction on the percentage paid against tax on diesel. You know, whatever that figure is, it is. And we're really happy to do that. But we've got to run a profitable, compliant, safe business. And, you know, the amount of money we are paying on diesel now, and the majority of that goes to is paid in taxing at the Treasury.

46:55Things need to be adjusted pretty quickly. Jason, is there an electric coach that has been made that you sort of see out there and think, if we had 19 of those you know we'd be in a in a better situation here yeah there is there's some cracking vehicles in the market that when you look at that um you know if we are buying a diesel vehicle they say just to keep it in the in the context it's probably looking about 300 000 pound a coach you know for a top exec coach if you're coming into electric vehicle you probably got about 600 to 800 000 pound that's the cheap bit you know the problem you go on that is how you charges, it's the facilities, it's the hardware and everything else that goes in with it.

47:35So you need a bigger yard, you know, and there's more planning. You know, the Scottish Government have supported a company up in Scotland with a grant sort of payment for facilities and purchaser coaches. And it does, it works really, really well. But we haven't got our option in certainly Wales and we haven't got our option in England. So, yeah, there are options out there. You know, the electric vehicle is a real good option. But at the moment, you know, the cost far away, the possibilities are switching, certainly for a small business like this. Lee, just the ripple effect of what Jason talks about there throughout the whole economy, whether it's people who are employing the holidays they're choosing to go on, the local trips, the national trips, the international trips, and then the confidence.

48:22Do you start to see that trickle through into the businesses that you're talking with and how they are viewing the months to come. When you hear Jason lay out there how difficult it is at the minute. Yeah, it was very eloquent, actually, in laying out the challenges there. Look, with energy prices that you've already spoken about and diesel going up to the level it's at, it affects consumer spending. Consumer spending drives circa 60 % of GDP. So therefore, of course, it has an effect. People will not spend elsewhere. because they're having to spend on energy or cut back. So there is a ripple effect on the wider business.

49:04Our growth rate as a country is circa 1, 1.1%. So, you know, we're not flying as a country. So as a result of that, there is an adverse effect. From a technology standpoint, you know, we get investments based on the AIP. So, you know, Q1, we were up 73 % in EMEA. So actually from a technology standpoint, because that's almost in its own world, I hate to use the term its own bubble, right? The investment is different, but we are seeing organizations definitely adversely affected. We need to be very careful because, you know, we could suddenly reach a pivot point that would drive the country from a GDP perspective into a negative position, which is not what anybody wants.

49:47And Jane, Jane Foley is with us this morning. It keeps a close eye on how countries are growing and the consequences there. When Jason talks about the Treasury being a profit centre when it comes to the price of diesel, we've got a budget a few weeks away at the end of this month. Do you expect there to be more in that about support for those that rely on the price of diesel and petrol so much? Well, you know, it would be very nice. But rather than being a profit centre, I think the Treasury has got very little money. You know, UKJet is 95 % of GDP. It's about twice that size, the size it was before the global financial crisis.

50:30And one of the constraints really for the government is that Andy Burnham, you know, he's laid out his wish list. How is he going to afford that? Because what's he going to do? Is he going to cut funding from the NHS? Well, no. He wants to spend more on adult social care. Well, where's that money going to come from? yeah, OK, he's going to potentially cut the triple lock. But at the end of the day, I think what we're looking at is actually more taxes to really tick those boxes of the wish list that we all want. And it's very difficult for the Chancellor to be able to afford this. But we've also got to bear in mind that it's not just coach holidays that are going to be felt in terms of diesel.

51:14But diesel is really important for farmers. so in um you know laying the seed in um harvesting for instance and then of course in haulage so if we want to get our food and everything else that we buy in the supermarket to the supermarket that's diesel as well and therefore everything that we buy in the super in the supermarket is going to be hit by this increased cost of diesel it's the the demand for diesel is pretty inelastic because of those uses. And the UK is very reliant on imported diesel. So we have this issue now where more crude oil is coming through the Strait of Hamas, but less refined products.

51:53That's still, you know, that's still really difficult. And also we've got to bear in mind that Russia has implemented an export ban on diesel too. And that's because of attacks on its refineries from Ukraine. So it's not just, yeah. So there's a lot of, exactly. Right. Jason, Thank you for your time this morning. Jason Edwards there, managing director of that 19-strong coach company. Let's have a quick check-in, shall we? Whether you're a faithful or a traitor. A moment of silence for the celebrities gathered today. So it's almost time to head to the Scottish Highlands for that brand new series.

52:30I mean, how much has it changed the way entertainment TV has been made in recent years? Caitlin Mensah is senior entertainment writer at the Radio Times. Caitlin, morning. Are we still seeing sort of, is there a traitors bubble that keeps growing at the moment? Good morning. Yes, I think the traitors is the gift that keeps on giving and giving. And I don't think many people want it to stop just yet. How is it changing the way other shows are being made? You know, when, say, advertisers might see it on the BBC and say to other commercial platforms, we want a bit of that. I think that the best thing about The Traitors is sort of the jeopardy that it brings.

53:10It leaves everyone hanging at the edge of their seats episode after episode with multiple cliffhangers. And I think with a lot of reality shows are trying to hop on that conversation where, oh my gosh, what's going to happen next? I have to tune into the next episode. So I sort of imagine people are looking to that to think, OK, well, if The Traitors did that, I wonder how we can mix that in with our show. And has it put up the value of a celeb? Are they worth a bit more given all of these spin-offs we're starting to see? Potentially. I mean, if we look at Alan Carr, we still can't stop talking about him.

53:42He's returned to the Scottish Highlands where he's bought a castle and that show's coming to Disney+. So, and he's sort of everywhere. And there was a big moment where he was awarded a special recognition award at the National Television Awards. So I think for someone that's had a career for so many decades, now back in the public sphere, thanks to winning Celebrity Traitors. Very interesting. We don't have a share price chart for Alan Carr, but it would be a fascinating one to have a look at over the years. Caitlin, enjoy Celebrity Traders Series 2 beginning later with an extra long opening episode at 8 o 'clock on BBC One and BBC iPlayer.

54:15Big thanks to Lee, to Jane, to everybody who's been in touch. That's it from Wake Up To Money. Wake Up To Money from BBC Five Live. That's it from Wake Up To Money. You can download the podcast every Monday to Friday. So please make sure you subscribe. We'd also love it if you left us a review when you do. Get in touch. Keep the conversation going anytime as well on social media. Use the hashtag WakeUpToMoney.

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