Blast off for SpaceX?

22:13Felicity Hannah:Ella, we've talked about sort of the impact of these massive tech companies listing on the markets, But what kind of impact is AI having on investor sentiment just in terms of what it can do for businesses like David's, what it can do to kind of boost the productivity of the country through all sorts of different businesses? Yes, I think the argument on productivity is certainly a positive one, right? So you can do so much more and certainly, particularly on the startup scene, very encouraging. So it's much easier to launch your own enterprise now and not have to hire, let's say, 10 people. You could, you know, using efficiently AI, you can actually do a lot of those tasks.

22:57Certainly a positive productivity trend. Now, it's very early days, right? So we don't know. Usually we look at productivity ex post, you know, after several years and try to explain it away. But for example, in the US, there's already some strong signals to that effect and absolutely here as well. So, look, I mean, we're well set up for it because the talent pool, the educational backdrop of UK universities and also the business drive as well make us or put us in a strong position to be able to garner those gains from productivity.

23:31Felicity Hannah:Let's talk about a different energy story. We have to touch on oil, don't we? Because Donald Trump said yesterday that he'd cancelled strikes against Iran. That was very shortly after threatening very hard attacks. Oil markets moved sharply after President Trump's initial comments that US forces could seize Iran's main oil and gas export hub, Karg Island, as well as other parts of the country's oil infrastructure. And then calmed down again once Donald Trump appeared to row back from that. But Shelyan, it's really difficult, isn't it, the price of oil and what investors can kind of expect at the moment, because Donald Trump can sort of change his position or seem to change his position within minutes.

24:23No, he does indeed. And I think he made a comment about, you know, great, that inflation was high or similar and then suddenly rolled back on that one as well. So he definitely does seem to come up with sort of potentially sort of unique positions. I think on oil prices, my understanding is that the Iranian oil refineries are filling up at the moment. I think there's a particular island in the Straits, and I think he was talking about bombing. And that was particularly worrying because that's actually where a lot of the refineries are, and they are filling up. And about six weeks ago, a number of sources were talking about that actually they can fill for about six weeks.

24:56And then at that point, they're full and you have to close down the oil fields or start talking about closing down the oil fields. And the minute you close those down, it's very difficult and sort of costly to reopen them again. So if you get to the stage where you're closing them, you're likely to have higher oil prices and for longer just because you've got to reopen them. There's less supply for longer and it's the cost of reopening. And we're now about eight weeks since that six week point. So I think we're getting to the stage now where those oil refineries are actually really full and we need to see a solution to this.

25:23Because if we do get to the stage where we're seeing them close down, you're going to end up with oil prices being higher and for longer. But, you know, who knows at the moment, who knows what Trump's doing and who knows when we will see that agreement signed in the Middle East.

25:35Felicity Hannah:Well, as we are on air right now, a barrel of Brent crude, which is the sort of benchmark that we use, is just over$88 a barrel, which has come down, David. We've seen it up as high as$120 at times in this conflict, but it is still way off the$70 that it was before the conflict began. Are sort of energy costs and energy prices things that you're looking at nervously as an organisation? um we always sort of keep a little bit of an eye on it because we obviously um buy energy for running our manufacturing site powering the office and and what have you but the bigger impact for us tends to be the knock-on impact of media stories about oil prices going up that inflation is going to peak again um because our business is pretty sensitive to consumer confidence you know anything that pushes up the cost of living, anything that pushes up food inflation, particularly for our consumer business.

26:41And then on the B2B side, where we have a couple of business units that sell into other organisations, there we're also quite sensitive to any kind of inflationary costs because it tends to delay capital spending, which means it's a bit more difficult for us to put water dispensers into new offices.

27:00Felicity Hannah:Has it affected your own kind of office plans or expansion plans or, you know, where you're spending money as a company? Yeah, well, our office plans sort of, we've actually saved money on offices this year by closing one and sort of moving everybody to our own site in Bicester. So that one wasn't sort of really driven by energy costs. That was driven more by sort of saving costs elsewhere within the business, because we do have to deal with some of these inflationary pressures. But, you know, we at the end of the day, we need energy for running the business. We obviously try and buy it as cheaply as we can and make sure that we avoid volatility if we can buy some sort of forward contracts.

27:44But, you know, the energy costs go up. We either have to find some cost savings somewhere or we pass the price on to whoever's buying the products.

27:50Felicity Hannah:Ella, it used to be that a tweet on his Truth Social platform or a comment in his aeroplane from the President Donald Trump in the US could really move oil markets and markets more generally. Are investors still responding to his comments with the same kind of sentiment or are they maybe starting to think we have to wait and see what actually happens? perhaps a smaller volatility around the headlines um probably more recently let's say over the last two three weeks uh we were seeing more fluctuation around those headlines earlier on in the conflict but what's interesting is we ran a bit of a survey at the desk with the team and you know sort of percent up moves versus percent down moves relative to those bullish or bearish headlines And actually, there's a small marginal positive effect when you net it out.

28:52So more noise than signal, we would say, on average. So investors probably would have paid off for investors to not pay too much attention, I guess, to headlines on an average basis.

29:04Felicity Hannah:Thank you very much. Now, it is half past Shelley. And this is normally the point where we say thank you and goodbye to our economists. But we're going to ask you to stick around for some defence spending chat after the news. So please stay with us. David Hall, likewise from Britta Ella Good from Newton Investments and Shelley and Horne from S &W. Stick around. Lots more to talk about. Let's just hit a couple of your messages, though, on AI. Let me see. Brendan says, hi, Flick. Flick. The problem with AI is exactly that. It's artificial. I prefer GI, genuine intelligence. Thank you for that. and Eddie says, a friend of mine was saying mums were asking advice on chat GPT etc on when to wake their baby rather discuss it with the mums present.

29:47Felicity Hannah:This is not good.

29:52Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Like those$5 roses at a gas station or a second-hand piece of technology that breaks in the first 10 minutes? Marketers know that feeling. We optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not so great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title and more.

30:34So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. Host unforgettable backyard barbecues with savings from Whole Foods Market. Get the good times going with made-in-house chicken or pork sausages and ready-to-cook kebabs for hassle-free flavor. Grab tasty flatbreads and their new balsamic chicken salad in the prepared foods department. Keep things fresh with organic red cherries, strawberries, and peaches at their peak.

31:17And stock up on bug sprays and sun care must-haves. Make your summer sizzle at Whole Foods Market. Wake up to money with Felicity Hanna.

31:28Felicity Hannah:Very good morning. If you're just joining us on Wake Up To Money, then welcome to Almost The Weekend. We've been having some very, very interesting discussions already on the programme. We've been talking about AI in particular ahead of the SpaceX IPO that's coming later today. David in Pembrokeshire says, hi Felicity, enjoying the AI discussion. The extent of the AI revolution depends on what the country wants. The next discussion will be on a tranche of jobs no longer existing or tax returns not growing. It is all linked. But what do countries want? Thank you very much for that. Keep your thoughts coming this morning.

32:05Felicity Hannah:And we'll be hearing from the boss of Parkrun just before six o 'clock on the programme because the company is celebrating its millionth event this weekend. I do want to hear your Parkrun stories. Has it changed your weekend routine? Is it the reason you got active for the first time or maybe returned to being active? Get in touch. Let me know. You can text me on 85058. You can send me a WhatsApp message on 08085 909693. But get in touch on everything that we're talking about this morning, including defence spending. Because not one, not two, three resignations happened on Sir Keir Starmer's defence team yesterday.

32:44Felicity Hannah:The first came quite unexpectedly from the defence secretary, John Healy, who accused the Prime Minister of failing to properly fund defence, which could make the country less safe. That was followed by Pamela Nash resigning as Mr Healy's parliamentary private secretary and then Al Kahn's as defence minister. Now after months of delays, Healy said that he'd been given the defence investment plan on Monday and that it falls well short, he said, of what is required. That is potentially a question for the armed forces. It's also a question for the many businesses that are making those investments and having those investments made in them.

33:25Felicity Hannah:Let's talk to one. Andy Thomas is chief executive of Cohort, the aim listed parent company of seven small to medium defence tech firms. Andy, good morning. Good morning to you. I mean, this is perhaps more drama and attention than this area normally gets. What's your reaction? well i mean i think first of all it's sad to see the loss of someone who by all accounts is a well respected defense secretary who's um clearly been a very uh a very solid uh and capable man uh well liked by colleagues and the armed forces leaders um and the fact that he was clearly such a close ally of kia starmer makes this all the more surprising and such a major development um and of course the armed forces minister also going add further emphasis uh to the the really biting comments that he made in his resignation letter.

34:15So yes, it's a very significant move. And the implications for the defence investment plan, which of course we haven't seen yet, but we can infer quite a bit about from the letter, are a real concern.

34:32Felicity Hannah:Now, as you say, he was perhaps quite a popular secretary for defence. But Dan Jarvis, the security minister and a former British army officer, has now been appointed to replace him in that cabinet role. But I want to look at the wider picture with you, Andy, because back in April, you told us it's very hard for us to make investment decisions or to understand where future revenue is coming from. How are you feeling today? Well, what an eloquent sigh. It's the same. Very much the same, I'm afraid to say. I mean, we've just seen or it's just been reported that the defence investment plan may still come out as early as Monday.

35:19And there's been a very quick appointment of Dan Jarvis, who in any other circumstances I'd certainly welcome as defence secretary. I mean, a very experienced guy with real military experience and relevant ministerial experience too. And indeed, in any other circumstances, the fact that the dip is finally coming out would be very welcome as well. But in the light of what's happened and the clear implications that the spending plan is really inadequate to maintain the UK's armed forces and meet the threats which we clearly face at the moment, I would have hoped that the government would at least take a little time to reconsider its approach.

35:58Felicity Hannah:Dip, of course, being the defence investment plan that we're discussing. Your company then, it's made up of, as I said, seven defence businesses. Previously, you've said that small defence businesses would be the worst hit by this delay. Is that still your opinion? Is this perhaps causing you to delay investment or innovation or the things that clearly the UK needs? Well, I think it certainly is true that small businesses are likely to be the worst hitters. They won't have the capital or the balance sheets to be able to continue in the absence of the expected flow of contracts. As far as we're concerned, I mean, it's really an extension of what has been a delay in clear defence planning for over a year now.

36:53And really, since the government came into office, we've lacked a clear spending plan. And we've seen the non-arrival of expected defence programmes. When they arrive, they've been smaller than we'd previously expected. And then we have difficult processes which start with tenders being requested. When we put those in, there are delays in reviewing them, delays in approvals. Higher level approvals are apparently needed. So to give you one example, we've recently, well, some time ago now, put in a tender to continue providing high level joint service training exercises, something that we've been doing for well over 20 years.

37:38And the decision was awaited. The deadline passed. No approval was given. and we've been asked to extend the tender validity for several months. And that's really quite typical of some of the experiences we've been having. So the hope was that the Defence Investment Plan was going to resolve all of this and we'd have a clear way forward and we'd be able to understand what the government wanted and match our investment plans to that. But that's really been thrown into uncertainty by the events of the last 24 hours.

38:07Felicity Hannah:Andy, stay with me because I want to bring in Shelley and Horne, economist and partner at the accountancy firm S &W. Shelley, this is not just about defence, is it? This is about a really tricky, really tight fiscal backdrop for the government. No, you're right. And we don't know what's in the dip. But what we do know is that the investment's being considered within the environment of the self-imposed fiscal rules relating to expenditure with sort of high levels of debt to GDP and really limited fiscal headroom following the March budget. um so there are no easy answers here but there are choices and there are choices around where you spend that investment where you use it on welfare or on taxation and defense spending is a particularly hard one is it's not seen as necessarily self-financing or growth generating in the same way some investment in infrastructure and also the benefits aren't necessarily as visible to the british public as say spending in health care so defense is often described as preventative and you say this you see the same financing dilemmas for example in health care where it's a lot easier to justify spending on sort of immediate day-to-day health problems be that sort of cancer a and e etc and it's a lot more difficult to spend on finance prevention so i think defense is you know in that category and it's a lot harder for the government to justify given the sort of the fiscal environment we're living in where there really isn't a lot of a lot of wriggle room and then that leads them on to sort of difficult decisions around welfare and taxation as well and where those trade-offs are.

39:35Felicity Hannah:And I suppose the saying is, isn't it, that to govern is to choose. But Shelley, when you talk about the lack of headroom, the tight fiscal situation, in order to increase defence spending, we would have to cut spending elsewhere, raise taxes or borrow more. Do you have a sense of which of those would be the most palatable or I suppose the one that spooked the bond markets the least? No, it's a really difficult moment. So, you know, you hear, you know, I think Keir Starmer is sort of, you know, less willing now to say there won't be tax rises. So there's a lot more discussion around those, you know, potentially being in place in maybe the autumn budget.

40:14There seems to have been a renewed commitment to welfare. So that then leaves you the juggle of investment plans between government departments. So I think, you know, we'll probably look at trying to find some money from elsewhere through that sort of change in spending,

40:27Felicity Hannah:but also potentially looking at tax rises later in the year. Dave has messaged Shelyan to say, morning, morning Dave, what about defence bonds? I mean, is something new like that potentially the answer here? It's not something that I've heard considered. You know, I guess it's something to think about, but I don't think it's anything that we're going to see immediately. And I don't think it's anything we're going to see in the context of the dip at this time. Okay. Andy, thank you for still being with us. What does this mean for cohort generally then? Because I was quite interested looking at your latest trading statement.

41:04Felicity Hannah:You've had a very, very good year. But less than half of your revenue came from the UK. Are you deliberately growing your spending outside of the UK? No, not deliberately. I mean, it really does create a very clear statement. I mean, the rest of Europe recognises that the world has changed and in a very dangerous way. I mean, most clearly, of course, we're seeing the terrible conflict in Ukraine, but also the events in the Middle East and also continued huge Chinese investment, which affects right across the Indo-Pacific. So the result of that has been that, you know, the proportion of our revenue, and we are a UK company with four of our seven businesses based in the UK, has gone from, you know, sort of over 80 percent a few years ago to down below 50 percent for the first time.

41:53And yes, we have had a good year. And in part, that's because defence spending is rising so rapidly elsewhere in Europe and is so strong in the Middle East and the Indo-Pacific, but has just languished in the UK. And it's such a sharp distinction between the decisions that the UK is making on the importance of defence and protecting its population compared to pretty much every country in Europe. And I mean, especially if you look at the Nordic countries, the Baltic countries, Germany and Poland, where there is a real recognition that we're facing a very new and dangerous situation.

42:30Felicity Hannah:What would you like then? What would the UK defence industry like to see from the government? Because it does remain committed, doesn't it, to that 3.5 % of GDP as a target for defence spending? Yes, but on a very gradual trajectory indeed, according to John Healy's letter. I mean, I think it is good that we remain committed to that. But in the current circumstances, I mean, you know, the reality of that commitment has got to be called into question. And as John Healy pointed out, what's needed is spending now in the short term. There are real issues that need to be fixed, not necessarily just a promise to spend a little more in a few years' time.

43:13Felicity Hannah:Unite's General Secretary Sharon Graham says employers who've been waiting years to get contracts signed could simply walk away. Is that something you're considering? No, we won't walk away. We are a defence company and we're committed to the defence of the UK and its allies. I mean, that's what gets us into work in the morning as well as creating a successful business. But it's a real concern that the UK isn't responding to this major deterioration in the international situation in the same way that its European neighbours are. Thank you very much indeed. Andy Thomas is Chief Executive of Cohort, which, as I said, is the parent company of seven small to medium defence tech firms.

43:59Felicity Hannah:Thank you also Shelly and Horne, economist and partner at the accountancy firm S &W. We will now let you crack on with your Friday. Thanks for joining us. Thank you very much. Thank you. Still with me is David Hall, UK Managing Director at the Water Filter manufacturer Britta and Ella Good, Head of Fixed Income and Co-Head of Real Return at Newton Investments. Thank you for sticking around. David, do you feel for the government? Lots of businesses are asking for lots of different tax breaks or help to allow them to grow and to invest. And then you hear conversations like that. You realise just how many competing demands there are on the public purse.

44:37Felicity Hannah:Does it make you think, oh, do you know what? I'll just crack on and won't ask the government for any particular tax changes. It's a great question. I think for sure I'm sitting here thinking I wouldn't want to be the chancellor trying to find some ways to raise some additional revenue. I think, you know, there are difficult decisions that we all have to make every day, either in our businesses or with the government. And, you know, we would love to see more focus put back on sustainability, recyclability and areas like that through the tax system. But I think pragmatically we have to sort of park that and think that now's the time.

45:23You know, the time isn't right at the moment. There are other priorities for the country and for industry.

45:29Felicity Hannah:Jim has messaged to say defence bonds. No, we've already borrowed too much. and the interest bill is now over 100 billion quid a year. We do need more defence spending, but it needs to come from reduced welfare and less money for green projects. Yes, achieve the green objectives, but over a longer time frame. Look, there's still 10 minutes more of the programme. Get in touch. Let me know if you agree with Jim or where you think the cuts or the readjustment should come. Ella, let's just touch really quickly, if we can, on gold, because it's fallen to a six-month low. Investors are pulling back from one of the biggest bullion rallies in years.

46:06Felicity Hannah:In fact, the FT has got on its front page this morning. Gold hit six-month low as investors are spoiled for choice on the next big thing. The price dropped more than 1 % on Thursday, touching just over$4 ,000 per troy ounce before recovering slightly. What do you think is causing that drop? Is it, as the FT reckons, that investors are simply spoiled for choice? it tends to be one of those assets that does better in sort of times of crisis but what's interesting about gold let's say over the last I don't know eight nine months is that it's traded more in line with sort of riskier assets and it invited quite a bit of speculative flow into it so particularly from retail investors and levered accounts and so you know it had a significant run and quite a magnificent performance over the last, I don't know, six, seven months.

47:00And then it's given back most of that and some. So we're year to date on a negative territory now in terms of total returns. On the plus side, a lot of that speculative activity is now out. But on the other hand, it's worth taking a step back and looking at gold over the last two years. It's nearly doubled in price, even with this drop. So there's still demand from central banks or reserve managers and those people who want to have some protection from this fiscal dominance environment. So devaluation of fiat currencies. And so it does have a place in the portfolio of many investors who believe in its long term play.

47:39Felicity Hannah:Well, speaking of a significant run and a magnificent performance, that was dreadful. Is this how your Saturday morning sounds? Have we any tourist park runners this morning? Where are you from? Cornwalls! Park Runners across the world will mark a milestone tomorrow as it celebrates its one millionth event. What started with 13 runners in Bushy Park nearly 22 years ago is now a global charity running events in 23 countries, planning for many more. Let's talk to Elizabeth Duggan, Chief Executive Officer of Park Run. Elizabeth, good morning. Good morning. What a milestone. Did you have any idea, any ambition this big when you first started out?

48:27It's incredible, isn't it? One millionth event. And every weekend Parkrun is seeing around half a million people. And from where it started all those years ago, a handful of runners on a start line who gathered together because they knew that running was good for them and they enjoyed getting active, social and outdoors. And now we are this global movement, one of the world's most successful community public health initiatives. And this is a moment this weekend to celebrate what this volunteer led global movement has really achieved.

49:01Felicity Hannah:And actually, we've had a number of messages about what it means to some of our listeners. Tony in West Sussex says, I'm a 68 year old occasional park runner. It is such a welcoming and inclusive organisation. my most favourite ever parkrun was last year when I ran with my daughter Alice, who lives by the sea near Melbourne, Australia. I was pleased to find that my parkrun barcoded wristband recognised me, even though I was on the other side of the world. So it's interesting to see how it's able to work kind of across oceans. What are you doing to celebrate tomorrow? So tomorrow we have around 700 events across the globe who will be celebrating with us.

49:42and park runners know how to celebrate in style. We love a bit of fancy dress, some cake. I'll actually be at Bushy Park, which is the spiritual home of park run, where it all started. And I'll be joined by some of our celebrity park runners. So Joe Wilkinson, Dame Kelly Holmes will also be there with me to celebrate this momentous occasion. And I know we're going to have a great time there in park run style.

50:06Felicity Hannah:Do you do it every week? I don't do it every week, I do it as often as I possibly can. And I, like your listener, I've had the opportunity to do parkrun all over the world. And it's so special to go along to parkruns and find that they're fundamentally the same wherever they go. And we know that parkrun really means a lot to a lot of people. And so we are using this moment to say thank you. Thanks a million to all of our parkrunners and also to ask for parkrunner support to power us to the next million as a global charity. Yes, I mean, explain how you work a bit, because we've sort of done the excitement and I want to do some more of the excitement, but how are you funded?

50:47Felicity Hannah:How do you operate? so crudely speaking we operate um about a third uh a third third third so a third from commercial partnerships a third from a retail and a third from grants foundations and individual donations but we have a perception problem because all of our events are run by volunteers there is often not a recognition of what it actually costs to operate a charity like parkrun behind the scenes And we know that public awareness of Parkrun as a charity is only about 25%. So we're using this opportunity not just to celebrate where we've got to, but also raise awareness that we are a charity.

51:26And we're a very, very lean charity who operates so effectively. So intrinsic to our model is to be simple, scalable and sustainable. So we know that we need to work hard to to maximise the money that we get in order to increase our reach as much as we can.

51:41Felicity Hannah:And when you talk about a third of the funding coming from retail, what does that mean? So people can buy parkrun merchandise. People can buy milestones when they hit those key participation points. And there is a range of opportunities on our website if people want to look at them. Well, we'll allow you that one plug, I think. That's fair enough with a million parkruns. So what is next then? How do you go from here? Because it's been just incredible growth in 22 years, as I say, across 23 different countries. What are you planning for the next million miles? So we have three key growth pillars that we've identified.

52:20The first is around participation. We believe that we can get by 2030, we believe we can get to around 750 ,000 people globally and in about 30 countries. We also know that the next era, we need to work harder to reach deeper into communities who are underrepresented at Parkrun. So there's a, on Monday, we are about to launch our first ever UK health and inclusion strategy, which is a really exciting piece of work for us. and then the final objective is to grow our revenue streams so we know that there is head room there for us to reach out further and so this is a key moment for us to do that.

52:56Felicity Hannah:Let's squeeze in one more message. Paul says I do the junior park run in Portrush, Northern Ireland with my five-year-old daughter each week. It's the only park run that's entirely on a beach I think and it's the best way to start a Sunday morning. Great atmosphere and so great to see so many young kids getting out and exercising come rain or shine. My producer Elizabeth was just asking where the most unusual park run is. Do you have a view? So I have been to park runs across our custodial estate, so within the UK's prisons. And that's a really special thing to do, actually. So in around 25 prisons and young offenders institutions, we have park runs.

53:34I was there with a lady who was within the custodial estate. She would park run every weekend. Her grandson would also park run on the outside world and they would share a telephone call in the week to talk about their collective moment of park running together at the weekend. And that felt so special to me.

53:52Felicity Hannah:That's a lovely thing. Elizabeth Duggan, Chief Executive Officer of Park Run. Congratulations. I hope tomorrow goes incredibly well. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Maybe see you there. Maybe. I think after this morning, I'm due a lion. Thank you so much to Elizabeth. Thank you to David Hall from the water filter manufacturer, Britta. Thank you to Ella Good from Newton Investments. Thank you to you for all your messages and for your company this morning. Let's squeeze in one more from Paul, who's XRAF, who says to pay for defence, we do need to increase tax. I benefited from furlough payments during lockdown so the business didn't fold.

54:24Felicity Hannah:Happy to see extra pennies in the pound. That's it for Wake Up To Money. Wake Up To Money from BBC Five Live.

54:51The 2023 Ballon d 'Or France footballer is Lionel Messi. The winner is Cristiano Ronaldo. This is the story of the greatest rivalry in the history of sport. A rivalry that split football into two fates for a generation. There could be no, oh, Messi and Ronaldo are both great players. There had to be one that was better. They 100 million percent pushed each other to the next level. You know, we were the lucky ones who got to see it. I'm Steve Crossman. This is Sporting Giants Messi v Ronaldo. Listen first on BBC Sounds. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first, but didn't live up to the hype?

55:33Like those$5 roses at a gas station, or a second-hand piece of technology that breaks in the first 10 minutes. Marketers know that feeling. We optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach, and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not-so-great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you.

56:18Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. What do Beatles member Sir Paul McCartney, YouTube megastar Mr Beast and former Facebook executive Sheryl Sandberg all have in common? They're all being discussed in the new season of Good Bad Billionaire, the podcast which explores the lives and fortunes of the world's super rich. That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.

56:50Felicity Hannah:Listen now, search for Good Bad Billionaire wherever you get your BBC podcasts.