Debenhams Group boss on the fight with Chinese rivals

29:05So independent filmmakers struggle to put the money together to take that chance. And that's going to diminish the originality of the films that are out there to be seen. Andy, just while I've got you, I wanted to ask you about youth employment or unemployment, because there's been a big topic of conversation these last few weeks. And there's been a letter written by retailers. So the likes of M &S, Sainsbury's, Tesco have written to the government asking them to act pretty urgently. They use the phrase, the ladder of opportunity for young people is wobbling. The reason I wanted to ask you is because the media industry, the film industry, creative industry, would also be another one people might associate with, sort of entry-level jobs for younger people, the concept of the runner in those early days.

29:51Are you seeing that sort of ladder of opportunity for young people wobbling in your industry as well? I think it's an inevitable consequence because if you've got production that can happen here because we've got such great crews and great talent but Trump says to Netflix you should be making your films in America suddenly our studios are empty and having any kind of consistent employment is the really difficult thing and I'd really like us to see at a sort of national level as going, we need to be running studios, financing our own films so that we can have, you know, if you go back to Pinewood in the 50s and 60s, there was a crew employed full time there.

30:32And if you've got that situation and the films are coming through, then you can bring in what they used to call juniors, you know, because you've got ongoing stuff and you learn by going, okay, we're going to make this movie next year and it's got this nuclear reactor that we're going to have to figure out how to build. Do some work on that. not we're shooting tomorrow and the pressure is there from the streamers to be hitting that deadline tomorrow. So, yeah. Thank you. Thank you for your time this morning, Andy. Andy Watson, producer behind award-winning movies Girl with a Pearl Earring, The Railway Man.

31:09Host unforgettable backyard barbecues with savings from Whole Foods Market. Get the good times going with made-in-house chicken or pork sausages and ready to cook kebabs for hassle-free flavor. Grab tasty flatbreads and their new balsamic chicken salad in the prepared foods department. Keep things fresh with organic red cherries, strawberries, and peaches at their peak. And stock up on bug sprays and sun care must-haves. Make your summer sizzle at Whole Foods Market. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Like those$5 roses at a gas station or a second-hand piece of technology that breaks in the first 10 minutes?

31:49Marketers know that feeling. We optimize for the numbers that look great, impressions, reach, and reacts. But when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not-so-great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bull spend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn Ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn, the network that works for you. Spend$250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn ads and get a 250 credit for the next one.

32:33Just go to linkedin.com slash broadcast. That's linkedin.com slash broadcast. Terms and conditions apply. Wake up to money. with Sean Farrington. Good morning. It is wake up to money. We're not far off 20 to 6 on this Wednesday morning. Now, let's just bring you the latest from Northern Ireland this morning where fires set by demonstrators in parts of Belfast have forced people to flee their homes after footage of a knife attack in the city on Monday night circulated widely online. So houses and vehicles were set alight as a number of anti-immigration demonstrations became violent. A man from Sudan is due in court later today, charged with an attempted murder of a man in his 40s who is now in a serious condition in hospital.

33:20The Home Office has confirmed the suspect was given a five-year refugee visa after arriving from Ireland in 2023. Our Ireland correspondent Chris Page reports from Belfast.

33:33It was a night of disruption and destruction after police and politicians had pleaded for protests to be peaceful. The homes of several families from a migrant background were targeted near the Crumlin Road in North Belfast. Some were set on fire. In the east of the city, men wearing masks attacked houses close to the lower Newtonards Road. Footage shows a family being escorted to an armoured police van while homes burn in the background. A bus was also set alight. There was violence in Newton Abbey and Ballyclare in County Antrim and Portadown in County Armagh. Demonstrations were held in other places following the knife attack on Monday night.

34:13A 30-year-old man, who police say is Sudanese, has been charged with attempted murder. He's due to appear in court this morning. Chris Page reporting there. We'll bring you the very latest as we get it on Fire of Life throughout the course of the morning. It's not far off, 25 to 6. I'm going to be talking a bit about shopping now, retail. I've had some strong words from the boss of Debenhams. Quite interesting seeing some of the papers this morning about developments at Boots. The owners of Boots are in talks over a£10 billion sale with bidders. So says the front of the Financial Times. Simon French, who's with us this morning from Pamir Libram.

34:55Simon, these developments at Boots. The Times goes with the headline. Well, actually, the Financial Times saying it casts any potential stock market listing in doubt. People will see Boots as a dominant presence on their high street, but also a dominant presence in various parts of their health care as well. So what's this deal really all about? Well, this is the owners of Boots looking for the best price, and that could be found on the London Stock Exchange and the public markets. but increasingly it is found in private markets and the owners have a duty to realise the best value. And therefore, I'm not wholly surprised by this story.

35:39Undertaking what is known as a dual track or multi-track approach, you're looking for buyers in public and private markets is pretty commonplace. If the London Stock Exchange, if the public markets want to get a very well-known, own very well-loved brand like Boots onto the stock market, it has to show it can compete on valuation grounds with the valuations that private buyers are prepared to pay. Yeah, it's always interesting to remember, as the FT's noted here, Boots grew from a single chemist shop in 1849 and, as the Financial Times says, has operated under near constant uncertainty over its ownership for the past four years.

36:18So if you have one near you or you're popping one regularly, there might be changes on the way there sooner rather than later. What about if you're shopping online? We've certainly seen changes on the high street with Debenhams over the years, but it's got a very different guise these days. It is now part of the online business that includes fashion brands like Boohoo as well. It was mopped up by Boohoo at one point when Debenhams went into administration and what would happen to those stores? And as we know, many of them stayed empty around the country. What would happen to the name? Well, the name ended up under the Boohoo group, and they decided to use that as a website for their fashion brands.

36:58And now it's the name of the business. And the chief executive of the online retailer, Debenhams, has told the Big Boss interview podcast that UK businesses are being harmed by exploitation of the so-called de minimis loophole. So this is one which allows competitors in China, like Shein, Timu, you may well have shopped with them, to avoid tax on small packages. So if you think when something arrives and it's pretty cheap and there's not much in the package, but it still gets to you all the way from China. Well, this is part of the concern that retailers like Debenhams are having. Dan Finlay is the chief executive there.

37:32He's been speaking to Will, our very own Will Bain, about how the former department store chain, which now owns those fast fashion brands like Boohoo, managed to turn the company around from empty retail stores and financial losses to a profit. But here he explains why he thinks the government's plans to close these loopholes by 2029 isn't soon enough. We operate in a global economic environment. Business is globally competitive these days. And we want as much as possible for there to be a level playing field for British companies to compete fairly against major global competitors. Of course it's had an impact.

38:09Of course it's had an impact. And you look at the rise of Sheen and Timu and other operators in the UK, it has a massive impact. And you see what happens in the US and the impact on – In as much as you will see sales go there because you're in such a price sensitive bit of the market, right, that if they don't have to pay what you have to pay there to bring the parcels in or whatever – It gives them a structural advantage and a structural cost advantage that is hard to compete with. And it's a government that's creating that disparity. Great that there's recognition in the government that it needs to change.

38:40Great that there's commitment in the government to change it. That's absolutely what we've asked for when we're completely supportive of that change in policy. My ask is that let's do it quicker than 2029. You know, the US rolled it out in six months. The EU were rolling it out from July onwards in different countries. So let's not take three years to do it. Let's do it in 12 months like others have managed to do it. That's my ask. And otherwise, what kind of pressure does it put on? I'm going to call you a high street retailer as a kind of catch. What kind of pressure does it put on our retailers, British retailers?

39:13Yeah, look, British retailers that are, you know, supporting British jobs, that are driving British jobs, that are paying taxes in the UK, that are trying to do the best for, you know, the UK consumer are disadvantaged in a global competition whereby there isn't that level playing field. They have a structural cost advantage. They're not governed by the same rules and legislation around the safety of products, for example. You know, it's a big loophole that needs to close. It's great that the government's recognising it needs to close. Let's just close it quicker. You mentioned those retailers as well.

39:48Sheehan kind of, I guess, would it be fair to say, kind of brought fast fashion back again a bit when perhaps the model was under pressure here in the UK from some of the traditional players, and this predates you with the company, but the likes of Boohoo and Pretty Little Thing, for example, have been under pressure from the emergence of Sheehan in there. Is fast fashion back again, do you think, full stop? Is it kind of cool again for that younger shopper who likes that? Look, I think fast fashion means different things to different people. I think if you look at Boohoo, Boohoo was the original online fashion disruptor.

40:21And what it did is it took fantastic product that people were seeing, that celebrities were wearing, that they were seeing on TV. And it delivered it to consumers quickly, within a couple of weeks of it being seen. cost effectively and delivered it rapidly the next day to consumers. And so Boohoo, you know, part of our group was that original online fashion disruptor and had tremendous success and pretty little thing followed that. Again, part of our group becoming this global fashion phenomenon through its major partnerships with, you know, Kylie Jenner and Hayley Baldwin, as she was at the time.

41:02And it sort of fused this great fashion at great prices as worn on celebrities and created this influence of marketing, so to speak. There's no doubt that then Sheen came in and did this ultra fast and ultra cheap. And that caused disruption. And that disruption was enabled by this disparity that exists in the global legislation and regulation there. but there's no doubt that fundamentally the UK consumer and in particular the young UK consumer wants great value fashion product quickly and we're in a position to provide that. We're one of the biggest destinations for that in the country but of course we face significant competition from the likes of Sheen.

41:43We've had a tough time of it recently but we're dusting ourselves off and fighting back. This might sound a slightly odd question to ask someone who's talked so passionately about being an online retailer But does a healthy high street help you guys too? You know, having thriving physical high streets too? Look, I think a buoyant UK economy, you know, UK retail is a huge employer. We want people to be thriving. We want people to be employed. We want employment to be growing. We want the economy to be growing. We want Britain to be at its best. And we want to be, you know, an active and positive contributor to a thriving UK economy.

42:24We're not necessarily there today. And there's work to be done. And, you know, we'd encourage the government to, you know, really focus on growth as the agenda. How do you deliver growth in the economy? Because I'm a big believer as an economist by trade that growth is good, you know, for our country, for our public services, for our businesses, for our, you know, citizens of the UK. We really want to focus on growth. We want to be a positive contributor to that. But back to your question, we want retail to thrive in the UK. We want retail to grow in the UK because that's so important to our economy and we'll compete on our merits in that space.

43:00There's some huge old Debenhams sites out there. Would you ever, I know you're early in the journey, but would you ever think maybe a couple, a few flagship ones, useful for returns, things like that? No, I don't see that. I feel like Debenhams has evolved now and it's evolved into Britain's online department store and it's been fundamental to the change of our business model that has enabled our business to thrive again. We've got such a small online share today. We've got so much headroom to grow. And so we very much see our future in the UK being digital. I was just thinking because of, you know, the likes of Next, for example, you always read in their financial results how useful having those physical places for saving money on returns and that kind of stuff is.

43:39But you would, right now, you don't see the benefit. Look, I think that's their business model. You know, I'm very familiar with the multi-channel, omni-channel business model from my time at JD. And we have thousands of stores around the world. But for our business, it's right that we're digital. Those stores that you mentioned, you know. Does it make you sad when you walk past them? I saw one in my home city the other week. I mean, I was the same as you. It used to be somewhere I would go all the time, my gran and my mum growing up. Yeah, I think, you know, people are longing for that. I think, you know, people miss that.

44:08I think what it does is it makes me proud that actually we have taken this business, you know, out of administration, transformed it and delivered it an exciting future. And that's both a challenge and an opportunity for us because at Debenhams still, you know, a significant proportion of people walk past those stores and think, oh, I miss Debenhams and don't realise and don't yet know that Debenhams is still here. you know we're just serving people differently and we're serving people online now rather than through physical retail so for all the progress that we've made and all the success we've had as a Debenhams brand the opportunity is huge ahead as we continue on our campaign to remind people and reintroduce people to the new Debenhams.

44:51Very interesting that's Dan Finlay chatting to Will Bain of course there looking forward to tucking into the full interview on Big Boss interview on BBC Sounds, so you can subscribe there, go on to BBC Sounds, have a search for that. I will already have it popping up on my phone, of course. I'll be listening to more about what Dan Finlay had to tell Will. Very interesting. Nicola Downing, who's been with us this morning, Chair of Tease Law and Wealth Management. Nicola, the idea of keeping a brand name like Debenhams is a fascinating one, isn't it? The business is so different. I mean, I know it's in the world of retail, but dominating big buildings on our high streets for so many years, went bust.

45:32The name got mopped up by Boohoo. And then those in charge of Boohoo clearly decided, you know, we want to actually lead with the Debenhams name now, not the Boohoo name anymore. Does that stuff work with customers, do you think? I mean, they probably didn't have a great deal of choice because Boohoo's brand had quite a lot of issues, if you recall. So they kind of needed to change whether Debenhams is the right one. I don't know, because to me, it kind of smacks of fusty, underinvested stores and quite an old-fashioned brand. Whether they'd have been better to choose something completely new, I don't know.

46:06But that kind of resurrecting of something that's gone into administration for good reasons is quite challenging, I think. Now, Simon, Nicola, I wanted to whip through a few other health stories. I mean, we've mentioned boots on the high street and the changes in ownership that may well be on the way there. Simon, the drugmaker GlaxoSmithKline, GSK, has announced its bigger ever acquisition. This is dominating quite a few of the business pages this morning as well. An£8 billion deal for a US cancer drug company called Newverland. What's this telling you about the direction this big British business wants to go in?

46:45Well, the new chief executive or relatively new Luke Mills, this is second acquisition of the year. you're right it's larger than the market saw or expected. It knew he was going to be acquisitive but the move back into oncology particularly is a departure from where GSK had been going. It sold off those assets to Novartis at the back end of the last decade. So I think it just shows that to achieve their financial targets which to remind listeners is to achieve£40 billion pounds worth of sales by 2031. They're going to have to keep the pipeline of drugs going. And these lung cancer drugs potentially, and it's subject to FDA approval, which is the regulator in the US, could be up to£2 billion worth of sales.

47:33So quite a big input into that financial target. So look, the share prices came off a little bit on the news, but overall, it shows that scale and diversification of drugs pipeline is going to be a really important thing for GSK to hit that target. And Nicola, another part of the drugs market that certainly captured imaginations as well as headlines in recent years, weight loss drugs. We've got a few bits of data about how they've impacted the way we're behaving. So new research from World Panel by Numerator suggests households using these GLP-1 drugs like weight loss jabs are spending are significantly less on groceries.

48:13So spending down by almost£800 million over the course of a year. Do you see this starting to actually have an impact in the way you would value businesses, the kind of businesses that you work with, how they're run? Yeah, I think it's such a booming market. The drugs, not just the drug losses, but ones to build back muscle. I was reading about it at the weekend as well. You know, all of the retailers are saying this is an issue. People are spending less on food. We already spend less per household on food compared to any other European country, so it's a huge issue for the supermarkets. But you've got to move with the times, and I think pills are going to be coming imminently as well, so there's going to be even more people on this.

48:58So it's really producing products that consumers are willing to buy and spend their money on. Right, the countdown is on, isn't it? It's going to be tomorrow night, the World Cup kicking off. Venues across the UK will have already been installing big screens to show the football. There may be a few more being done at the last minute. The competition spread, of course, across Canada, the United States and Mexico. Kick-off times often late into the evening, so many may well be flocking to their local to watch the games. I'd be interested to see how that plays out this weekend. Sarah Whittaker is managing director at Grand Technics, which is a Birmingham-based company providing big screens to fan parks, pubs, Premier League football clubs and more.

49:37Sarah, good morning. Are there still more fittings to be done? There is, yeah. It's a busy weekend. Lots of kit to get out before the first game. More importantly, I think the England game. I think that's our pinnacle to get everything out by. So we are moving fast with everything we're doing. So, yes, the team is doing an amazing job. Has anything changed this time around? The types of orders because of the timing of the World Cup? How many games there are? All of that? I think probably for us, a lot more maybe smaller venues and a lot more fixed install. So I think that might just be that maybe venues have just said, actually, over the years, let's get this, and this has been the pinnacle point for them to put a fixed installation in.

50:23So when you say that, that means they're keeping the telly? Yeah, keeping it, ultimately, yeah. We kind of, again, boring, but we don't class them as TVs. It's an LED screen. So yeah, so an LED screen ultimately means it's a joining up. So it kind of delivers that TV, you know, unique experience. And obviously it's the pixelate, all of that stuff, which makes it an immense viewing experience. And obviously then you've got the sound system and all of that. So yeah, as I say, it's brilliant. We've got screens going up, we've got trailers. We have a massive fleet of DigiVans. So for those people that, you know, haven't really decided yet, sort of still working on are we going to do it or not.

51:04And when we get the first few games out of the way, when we start to really, that momentum starts to spike, those Digivans will be flying out. Explain a Digivan. Ultimately, something that can just turn up on the night and then leave. So not as much investment as kind of having something there for the whole of the tournament. So those people that are just not really sure, but we are gone, sorry. Where is the screen? I nearly called it a telly then, but I stopped myself. Ultimately, on a digivan, it's at the back of it. So it's basically the supporting back of the whole of the vehicle. So it's like for a beer garden, if you can reverse it into it or something like that.

51:40Yeah, absolutely. But we've got huge trailers. They're out. We've got them in Edinburgh all the way down the country. So, yeah, literally everywhere. Venues. And as I say, a lot more intimate. So like, you know, 1 ,000, 2 ,000 people rather than the larger events. but we've got a mix of everything. It's going to be amazing. It's the World Cups, National Pride. Everybody's going to be out there. It's a coming together of people and it's brilliant. We've got flags everywhere. You've got people already wearing those T-shirts, roaring with pride to see the team come through. Average spend, Sarah, compared to, say, the last time you had an event as big as this?

52:22Oh, gosh, I would say, you were looking at, again, they're not hugely expensive, but you're looking at 30 to 50k. So, you know, good investment. You're looking to bring in more F &B. Well, when you say F &B, what does that mean? Food and beverage. Right. You know, that's what people want. So, I mean, it's a chunky investment to make. So you want to be sort of seeing a return on it. Do you see it sort of holding up as businesses have to figure out where they're spending their money? Is that taking a priority? Yeah, for sure. And we do some work with people on that. The amount of times we have people call us and say, oh, we've got a pub for 50 people, and we'll say, okay, let's look at the best solution for you.

53:05And I think that's the critical. We don't want to get somebody to the point where they've got a screen, but actually the audience isn't there. And it's been difficult. Licenses. I heard somebody say yesterday that some license areas have been pulled so they can't watch it if it goes into extra time and stuff like that. So we're just doing what we can do, getting them out as quickly as we can for people. Are these on sort of finance deals when it's that size money, but people want to see a sort of return now and the World Cup's only happening now and you have to wait another four years for the next Men's World Cup?

53:37Yeah, but the thing I always say to people is actually, you know what, especially from a venue perspective, create a family atmosphere across the summer. Put a movie on. Families want to do something that's different. If you can create something that's not just the World Cup, But then ultimately, it drives more return for people. Do you expect people to be showing Wimbledon and their like all through the next... Yeah, we've done that. Shopping centres, absolutely. Shopping centres don't take football. Ultimately, you did expect that. But yeah, the Wimbledons, the family days out and all of those things.

54:12It's brilliant. Sarah, good luck to you and your team. The next few days, then I hope they all get in position. Sarah Whittaker, fascinating hearing there, Managing Director at Grand Techniques, about where these big screens, definitely not tellies, are being positioned. They are pretty massive, aren't they, when you're trying to imagine those ones around your town centres. Big thanks to Nicola and Simon as well. Thanks to everybody who's been in touch. That's it from us. Wake Up To Money from BBC Five Live. That's it from Wake Up To Money. You can download the podcast every Monday to Friday, so please make sure you subscribe.

54:45We'd also love it if you left us a review when you do. Get in touch. Keep the conversation going any time as well on social media. Use the hashtag, wake up to money. The 2023 Ballon d 'Or France footballer is Lionel Messi. The winner is Cristiano Ronaldo. This is the story of the greatest rivalry in the history of sport. A rivalry that split football into two fates for a generation. There could be no, oh, Messi and Ronaldo are both great players. There had to be one that was better. They 100 million percent pushed each other to the next level. We were the lucky ones who got to see it. I'm Steve Crossman.

55:23This is Sporting Giants Messi v Ronaldo. Listen first on BBC Sounds. Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first, but didn't live up to the hype? Like those$5 roses at a gas station? Or a second-hand piece of technology that breaks in the first 10 minutes? Marketers know that feeling. We optimise for the numbers that look great. Impressions, reach and reacts. but when they don't show revenue, well, that's a not-so-great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that. Bullspend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn Ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks.

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