Magnetic attraction

0:00Wake Up To Money from BBC 5 Live Hello, morning, welcome to Wake Up To Money. The race to bolster supply chains in critical minerals continues this morning as the US government looks set to sink more than a billion dollars into the sector. We'll hear from a boss here in the UK about our government's revamped strategy for the minerals shaping the business world. Also on the programme today, pubs are still waiting on what support they may or may not get for their business rates. We'll hear from some a little later on. And can you guess what these two iconic movies have in common? Hello. Do you want to play a game?

0:36The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Saw and The Usual Suspects there, both films that premiered at the Sundance Film Festival, the largest independent film festival in the US. It's on in Utah right now and we'll be speaking to a producer and a cinema boss in attendance about its importance to the film industry. Wake Up To Money with Will Bane. Morning, welcome to Wake Up To Money on Monday the 26th of January. Just gone five o 'clock in the morning. We're with you this morning. Great to have your company as we kick off another week here on the programme.

1:10Going to be another busy week, expecting financial results from some of the biggest companies in the world. Also some of those stories that we just can't seem to leave behind, can we? The will they, won't they, over the business rates relief U-turn for pubs here in the UK and also what's going on in the battle between Netflix and Paramount for control of Warner Brothers Discovery in Hollywood. So there's going to be absolutely loads for our panel to get their teeth into this morning. Loads for you to have your say on as well, should you wish to join the conversation this morning. And 85058 is the text number to do so.

1:4208085 909693 is the WhatsApp. So we'd love to hear your thoughts on any of those stories as we move through. As I say, panel is always with us for the next hour. Sinayna Sinha-Haldea is back with us. Sinayna is the Global Head of Private Capital Advisory at Raymond James in London. Sinayna, morning. Great to have you back on the programme. Good morning. It's wonderful to be back. And I mentioned that a little bit right at the top there. We have got the real big beasts of the stock market reporting their financial results this week, haven't we? Companies that are the size of countries almost. Indeed.

2:13We've got the biggest of the big this week with Microsoft, Apple, Tesla. So we'll be excited to talk about that a bit later. Yeah. And just in terms of we'll get into it perhaps a bit more. But in terms of those companies in particular, is there one or two that you personally are most interested to hear from and why? Well, I'm really interested in seeing how Apple comes out. It's nothing such a big surprise in the markets usually because things get priced in, as we know. But it'll be really interesting to see what happens with Tim Cook's succession, what their message around that, and what they're going to do about their AI strategy with their link up with Google.

2:50And still lots of economics going on this week as well, Sinai. An interest rate decision from the US Federal Reserve, their central bank later on in the week. And of course, that's become an extremely political event as well. And we've heard again from the Treasury Secretary, the kind of equivalent of the Chancellor in the United States, Scott Besson, saying that the new head of the central bank could be announced this week as well. Indeed, and there's been a last-minute addition to the potential frontrunners there. We'll see what happens, but I think suffice to say, no matter what the decision from the Fed, which is likely to hold rates, that we're going to be hearing from other politicians about it.

3:26Yeah, absolutely. Well, we will chat a little bit more about it as well as we move through the programme this morning too. Alongside Sinai for the next hour, though, Tamara Roberts is back with us as well. Tamara, the chief exec of Ridgeview Wine Estate, based in Sussex, so towards the south coast here in the uk tomorrow morning great to have you back on the program as well morning great to be that thank you how is business going at the moment yeah it's um well let's just say it's challenging out there and um we we had a fairly tricky 2025 uh 2026 looks like it's um uh yeah a little bit more of the same but i think because we're probably a little bit more prepared with some of the changes we made last year hoping hoping to to get through it uh maybe with a little little bit more uh robustness uh this year so yeah we'll see and what's been causing the trickiness uh also everything um so i think some of the things you've been talking about there the interest rates definitely uh cost of living salary wage wage costs um as well as just general sort of consumer confidence, I think.

4:38And also some of health and wellness changes as well does have an impact, of course, has an impact on what people are drinking when they're going out, how much they're eating. Does it already, though? Does it filter through like that, people coming back on buying? Because yours are nice bottles of wine as well, perhaps not something that you're just grabbing on a Tuesday night after work or whatever. Yeah, no, it all has an impact. And, you know, and I think that, you know, people do measure what they're doing a lot more. And I think we've noticed through some of our customers. So a lot of our customers are restaurants, hotels, et cetera.

5:12And they're feeling the squeeze and having to react to particularly to sort of the wellness and even the weight loss injections currently because appetites are reducing. So menus are reducing. wine flights if you go out for those lovely sort of tasting menus they're all reducing too so the competition i suppose between wines at our level is becoming more rife as well really interesting why don't we stay in that kind of area because you've kind of raised some of the economic data kind of that we had last week there tomorrow as well what are you seeing then in terms of inflation within the business i.e kind of ingredients or i don't know or energy and things like that what's it looking like at the moment tell us what you're seeing with those wages too yeah i think that i mean absolutely the um i mean we've just been in this sort of high inflation scenario with cost of goods for quite a while now um and as much as um you know it has you know started to to reduce a little bit every year there's increases in um sort of some of our materials such as glass etc and if you think about let's take glass for example there it's high energy usage in the production side of it so they're being obviously their their costs are being influenced a lot by electricity consumption as well and the costs of those so um yeah we get double what we get from the suppliers but also our own um increase in those costs as well which have which have grown significantly over the last sort of three to four years so and they're not going to come back down again so again that's just a now become a stat which then has to either impact actual margins or get passed on to the customer.

6:55And which of those two things have you done? A little bit of both, really. It's impossible to pass everything off on all the time. But yeah, we've had to sort of manage our, I suppose, rationalise some other areas of the business internally as well. Sanayna, we had obviously that slew of UK economic data through the middle into the back end of last week. Now, the dust settled a little bit on it. Anything that you thought was sort of the most important from it, the most pertinent from it, something you think will kind of shape the beginning of this year, I suppose, for our companies? Well, I think the data is heavily impacted by what happened in the run-up to the budget, which was only at the end of November last year.

7:37Seems a long time ago, but in terms of economic data reality, it's not, because most data is looked back. You have to remember that many businesses went on hold pending the outcome of the budget, just given the uncertainty around it. So the data that we saw last week, plus any that we see in the coming weeks, is going to be slightly spurious because of the artificial hold that most businesses were forced to go on, seeing where outcomes were going to come out with respect to policy. I think we're going to see much more of steady state data once we have January reads and beyond coming through. Yeah, interesting.

8:13And what that interest rate picture that Tamara said her business in particular was looking out for. I'm sure there's lots of our listeners looking out for that too. What's your sense after the last week as well, then, Sunaina, of where we're going with that in the start of this year? Well, I think in the UK, there is a good set of reasons why there should be interest rate cuts this year. The question is when and how many are being priced in by the market. Now, I think that, suffice to say, that we've had inflation starting to look a little bit better, but there's been enough noise in the outcomes with energy prices and so forth that we are going to need to see a couple of more quarters of steady inflation rates, as well as more softness in the job markets, which none of us like to hear.

8:59But actually, that's what the Bank of England needs to be able to cut rates to say that we are going into a slower growth picture. Right. just explain the jobs bit a bit further? Well, the Bank of England has two mandates. Well, first, of course, is to control inflation. The second is to ensure that the economy is growing. And one of the ways that they look at that is labour market, that employment remains robust for the population. Now, we've seen unemployment rates in the UK tick up, hiring going on hold by many businesses and so forth. Actually, when the Bank of England sees the consistent around weaker employment, they will feel that actually the economy is softening and therefore it's okay to lower interest rates to spur investment into the economy.

9:48Yeah, I should say, shouldn't we, not a hard mandate, not laws that they've got to follow, but sort of a guiding principle. Guiding principles. Bank of England is principle led, correct. The impact of interest rates, high, low on your business then, Tamara? Yeah, we, just because of the nature of our business we have uh our production cycles about three years ahead of our um sales cycles so we uh just because of the length of time to produce could we just make a traditional sparkling wine so it's a three-year uh process from harvest to like I said from yeah from grape to glass as we like to call it but um so hence if we're in a situation which we have been and still are of growing the business of growing production in order to grow sales in the future uh we have to borrow to do that so it has a huge impact on our business the the interest rates and any cuts will be very well received right so to kind of get to that to that volume I suppose that you need to get to there's just a heck of a lot of investing that goes to to shunt you in that direction absolutely not just in sort of the the raw materials the grapes etc but also premises equipment to have to be able to to produce what we need to for the future and as a result have you had to sort of tack some of that back then a little bit um it's it's quite difficult because your commitment's so far ahead of you know so if you once you're on the journey you're on the journey it's quite difficult to to turn it back so uh so we've just you know we've just had to make decisions around certain other parts of the business or perhaps like you say just not push on quite as quickly as we could and look at our supply base, etc, just to ensure that we're within the parameters that we can manage.

11:36But it has been very, very tricky to navigate. Just wanted to pull out one final element of the data last week that perhaps, you know, because there's so much of it to picture and you're going through the headlines in the back end of last week, this is not something we've not talked about, Sunaina, in the past, but quite striking the overall unemployment rate now for those youngest workers, those 16 to 24 year olds now up above 15 percent and the ONS themselves kind of flagging that there was a weakness in hiring in a lot of those sectors where we know younger people tend to be employed, retail and hospitality in particular.

12:08Indeed it is actually a very concerning picture as that rate continues to tick higher and higher quarter by quarter. I think that it's of of course, related to some of the budget-related uncertainty that I mentioned, but more importantly, also AI and its impact on those lower levels of hiring, entry-level recruitment, mid-level recruitment being particularly impacted. It really calls into question what happens to the old apprentice model where in banking, where I work, or consulting, or legal services, the UK is a heavily service-led economy and the productivity gains from AI and the efficiencies from AI particularly impact those entry-level and mid-level jobs first and foremost and we're starting to see the that come through in the data I do believe we're just at the beginning of a structural change there yeah interesting um Tamara something that you're seeing perhaps on the ground as well particularly hiring of those younger people?

13:14Yeah, I mean, obviously from our sector, we don't have a huge number of opportunities at that level, but certainly with the customers that we work with, you can see hospitality have just had probably the worst five years in terms of their economic environment that they're working in and lots of all the reasons that we've spoken about before impacting their businesses. So I think they are obviously looking to tech and to AI to reduce their costs. And sadly, that means that that age group are probably the age group that get most impacted. Yeah, really difficult balance to strike, isn't it? Let us know what you're seeing out there.

14:0185058 on the text. 0808599693 is the WhatsApp. app we'll chat a little more about the week ahead with the guys in just a moment but for the morning ahead probably need to know the weather forecast don't you especially if you're heading out and about on the roads this morning and elizabeth rizzini sorry is standing by with that it stays very unsettled weather-wise as we head through next week so it will be wet and windy at times right across the uk with temperatures at or just slightly below the seasonal average colder towards to the north. On Monday though, there's plenty of dry weather. A weather front will eventually approach from the west, bringing heavy rain into Northern Ireland through the afternoon.

14:40There'll be brisk southeasterly winds developing too, particularly for Irish Sea Coast. For northeast Scotland, it expects more showers and some hill snow for northwestern Scotland, western Wales and southwest England. While it's dry to start with, there'll be rain moving eastwards by the afternoon and strengthening winds. But elsewhere for England and Wales, Plenty of cloud, a few spots of drizzle at times, but largely dry and feeling colder, three to seven degrees Celsius for most. Elizabeth Rizzini, Five Live Weather. Sunaina, Tamara mentioned AI there. Is that going to be one of the talking points for a number of these companies that you were touching on at the start of the programme who are releasing their financial results this week?

15:18Of course, and I think fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your take on AI, it is likely to be the key talking point for many quarters to come because of the size of investments being made by these large companies in their AI buildouts and the market and investors wanting to see how those strategies are going to return capital to them. We'll talk about Apple, but they've taken a very different take to Microsoft, which of course is a shareholder in OpenAI, the maker of ChatGPT. And then you've got Tesla, where Elon Musk has basically decided that autonomous driving and AI is going to be the future of that company.

15:57And Meta, the other one of those that releases results this week. Have they been the one that, from an investor's perspective, people have been the most nervous about selling its own bonds, selling its own debt at huge levels, the sheer amount of money that Meta seems to be throwing at it? And as you say, going its own way rather than looking to partner up, as we're seeing in lots of other bits of the industry. Indeed, Meta being the big gorilla in town where it comes to AI investment. Yes, I think investors are most nervous about that strategy because it has heavily focused on very large acquisitions.

16:33They made one worth nearly$15 billion in scale AI to recruit some key talented members of their team. But beyond that, they've also had other misfires, including a very large expenditure to over$50 billion in Metaverse, which didn't go anywhere. So investors are particularly keen to see what Meta's results are with respect to their AI investment. Their first AI foray into this AI model called Lama didn't go well. So particularly keen to see what Meta says about that. We'll loop back to the metaverse in just one second as well. But Tamara, is AI even coming to something as old as winemaking? um well i mean you know in terms of um it it's starting to and it's touching on i mean obviously we've got the sort of the traditional production process etc and um automation in that area is it's an area that we can look in that there's there's limited options at the moment within our price range but um certainly they are you know that well i can see that changing significantly over the coming years but obviously we are we also do sales uh you know we do the whole thing all the way through so um you know even through sort of all our systems internally for finance selling particularly on the marketing side um and the social media side definitely ai is starting to play a much bigger part yeah and what about in things like we know there's lots of very specific bits of software around things like accounting and stuff like that as well i'm just wondering are people kind of confident enough to to shift to that rather than um perhaps have have an in-house accountant or a county firm that you work with for example uh yeah again that's that's an interesting point i think you know as well as the skills uh that we have and the understanding of the ai and what's available that's something that obviously we're you know in in the industry we're in we're not we're not you know highly technical within there so yeah I think that's currently we certainly have that in-house but there are certain ways you know in terms of reducing the need of a much larger team those there are elements that we will pick up and use to help ensure that you know we can reduce probably headcount in across all areas I think is now what most businesses are looking at.

18:54Yeah and before we just move away from looking ahead to some of these companies and of course we'll be chatting about them all through the week fliss myself here on the program as and when they come out i'm sure um wanted to get both of you's take on sunaina one of the areas where meta sort of quietly seems to come up on the rails a little bit is in these glasses isn't it glasses that are sort of like i don't know the easiest way to describe it i guess is all the sort of functions of your apple watch but inside a pair of oakley or ray-ban kind of sunglasses now as well do you think we'll hear a little bit more about that from their results this week?

19:29Yes, Meta is perhaps going to mention it during their earnings call, but essentially it's part of their strategy to replace the smartphone with a series of wearables that can integrate AI into everyday life. And their goal is to have the early lead in AI wearable market before competitors like Apple and Google launch their own competing products. And that's what we've seen them really lean into doing with this long-term partnership with the parent company of Ray-Ban and Oakley, which is Esselo Luxottica. Tamara, I feel like I'm seeing these more and more, you know, billboards for them or whatever as well.

20:10Yeah, I mean, I think from our perspective, obviously, that would be quite interesting from a visitor. So we have, you know, we have a tourism stuff, we do tours, we do tastings we and people say perhaps having some ai integration to enable people to find out more and we can provide perhaps more detail and information with people come on site that sounds quite interesting and about the industry maybe as a category rather than just as an individual uh entity but i've not seen many of them or around here yet no but that is an interesting area where you feel like they would be quite good wouldn't it and the problem with metaverse was sort of wearing this thing all around your head wasn't it and i suppose that These are a thing that we would wear normally, perhaps, if not necessarily every day in a pair of sunglasses.

20:52An interesting shift, isn't it? What do you guys reckon out there? 85058 on the text. Would you wear a sort of wearable piece of tech on your face? I guess it basically is in a pair of sunglasses that are providing some of those functions that Sinayana was talking about. 85058 on the text. 0805909693. The WhatsApp number to get in touch with us on that. If AI is kind of the sort of big driving force of, I guess, business news, but also that corporate news that Sunaina was talking about, the sort of plumbing to all of that and the backdrop to all of this and these various races and not just that, but also clean technology as well, is, of course, critical minerals.

21:30And last week was dominated by President Trump's various claims around Greenland, partly, of course, due to security, but also potentially due to the country's vast mineral deposits. And it's not just Greenland. And we're going to take out some of the rare earth and take out some of the assets and pay and everybody's going to make a lot of money. That was the president speaking late last year alongside the leaders of the Democratic Republic of Congo and Rwanda, two other countries where there are large mineral deposits. All comes, of course, as governments in particular in North America and Europe try to dent China's hold over the production of critical minerals and rare earth.

22:07Globally, China accounts for a little over half of the mining and 90 % of the refining of these minerals, which are crucial for things like magnets that fit into everything from smartphones to electric vehicles, wind turbines and MRI machines. Reports over the weekend in the Financial Times suggest the Trump administration is planning to sink some$1.6 billion into a new US rare earth miner. Well, here in the UK, in the last couple of days, we've also had a new strategy rolled out by the government on this 2030 critical mineral strategy. So lots to talk about with Will Dawes. Will's the chief executive of Makango and the director of HyperMag.

22:46Morning, Will. Good morning. And I hold off from explaining the company because I'm going to get you to do a bit of that for us, if that's all right. Yeah, sure. So Makango, we're a UK and Canadian listed company. and really the company started out developing a rare earth project in Malawi but over the years we've gradually expanded and about seven years ago we started looking at a very interesting technology to recycle rare earth magnets through a company called HyperMag working very closely with the University of Birmingham. Yeah it was a basically a spin-out wasn't it from research at the university is that right that's right and um you know we as i say we got involved about several seven years ago um i was i was actually a conference up in in manchester rare earth project and um i met a guy called dave kennedy who was the original founder of um major alloy producer less common metals and and he said come and look at this very exciting technology that we are developing at the University of Birmingham.

23:56And, you know, we went to meet the team, a lot of passion, a lot of interest, very interesting technology that really has the potential to unlock the supply chain for recycling of rare earth magnets. And we first invested in HyperMag in 2020. And the company has gone from strength to strength, culminating in the opening of a commercial plant yeah in south burman itself isn't it as well that's right that's right just i'm going to get you to explain the tech if i can in a moment or the bits that you're allowed to without giving away anything to your competitors as well but set the scene for people first of all as well we rattled through a few there that the production team kind of written in of as to where these are used but give us the uses and and how you sort of find them originally or how they're created originally i suppose yeah so in terms of the uses i mean rare earths are absolutely critical for a whole range of technologies and sort of green applications they use for example in to make the magnets which go into electric motors for e-bikes e-scoaters electric vehicles you know there'll be a few kilograms of rare earth magnets in an electric vehicle wind turbines.

25:18So there'll be a few tons in a wind turbine they're used in drones, robotics. We anticipate a lot of growth from robotics in the future. Also hard disk drives. So, you know, with growth in AI data centers, hard disk drives, you know, you have a small rare earth magnet in the corner. So that's obviously, you know, a critical application and the recycling of those hard disk drives as well. Generally, you know, these rare earths are mined. There's a couple of mines outside China. Most of the production is in China and the downstream processing. And they're formed in what is effectively ancient, sort of an ancient volcano.

26:04And these, through various processes, they're concentrated in rare earth deposits, which are now exposed for erosion. for erosion. So in Malawi, for example, we are developing one of these rare earth projects, and there's a number of other rare earth projects under development, both in Malawi and elsewhere. But the key aspect on recycling is less than 1 % of rare earth magnets are recycled. And you compare that to other industries such as, you know, platinum group metals, where that number's north of 30 percent so there's a huge opportunity there to capture that material so those end of life motors and hard disk drives before they end up in landfill or before they're shredded when you effectively lose the magnet and so how easy is it to recycle them well a lot of these magnets they're obviously they're obviously magnetic often they're sort of glued into these assemblies and to dismantle, for example, a hard disk drive manually or an electric rotor from an electric vehicle.

27:16It takes time and it takes money, and that's why a lot of this material is lost. So what we do, we have a process whereby these end-of-life, these assemblies containing the magnets, often they're quite small, they would put into the they're put into what's what's called a an hpms vessel and we have one of those up in birmingham and and then hydrogen is pumped in the hydrogen reacts with those magnets in situ and it does two things which enables the recycling first of all it it forms a powder so the magnet breaks down into a powder in situ and also it demagnetizes that powder and as long as there's a route into the assembly for the hydrogen and a route out for the powder you can separate that powder and what we do at HyperMag we remake a magnet using that powder so it's a very short loop energy efficient process effectively separates the magnet the rest of the scrap and the assembly can be sold or shredded or or unfed back into the supply chain but that effectively means we have a domestic source of rare earths in the uk that we can capture by scaling up this technology i was gonna say what is the scale now put it in context compared to you know those big deposits found by mining and what's the the scope for scaling up quickly i guess well the the current capacity depending on the number of shifts is about 100 to 300 tons a year of neodymium iron boron that's that's a rare earth magnets um and that's a fairly that's fairly small scale in in the in the context of some of the biggest sort of operations but really the important thing it it it means that we can now produce magnets um in the uk um and we can start developing that supply chain so um so what needs to happen to help kind of step that up will we need to scale it we need to scale it so So we need to expand that facility to at least 1 ,000 tons a year and ready to scale up.

29:30We're already developing a similar plant in Germany, which is about six months behind the UK, and in the US, which will be in production 2027. So we're rolling out this technology developed at the University of Birmingham. It's a homegrown technology. but in the UK I think the opportunity here is to is to scale up we we have that technology working closely with the University of Birmingham which is a centre of excellence for magnetic materials on a sort of world scale you know we should be we should be capitalising on that pipeline of IP and the people to to run these projects and how much of that demand I guess guess here in the UK, but also globally too.

30:14Well, can you meet then, do you think, using this kind of tech? I think recycling is never going to be the full solution in this sector. You know, I mentioned the platinum sector. I mean, I think it's, you know, around 30, 40, 50 percent, a bit more in the UK. So recycling doesn't provide the full solution. So there's always going to be a requirement for rare earths coming from mining operations. And in a natural fact, you know, that's how Mekango started. We have an advanced stage project in Malawi. It's a rare earth mineral province. We've taken that from early stage to advanced stage. And there's a number of other projects under development.

30:56But it's really just a handful because it takes time to get these projects into production. Whereas for recycling, we can do it quickly. We can scale up quickly. And the material's there. I mean, it's, you know, there is end-of-life material that's available in the UK that we can capture and turn into value-added magnets. Will, thanks so much for your time this morning. Will's always there, the chief executive of Makango and the director, as he was mentioning there as well, of this company, Hypermag, the spin-out from Birmingham University then. More from Sunaina and tomorrow in the second half of the programme, we're going to be talking hospitality and pubs and the film sector.

31:35Wake Up To Money with Will Bain. Morning, welcome back to Wake Up Some Money on Monday the 26th of January where our panel this morning are Tamara Roberts, the Chief Exec of Ridgeview Wine Estate in Sussex, and Sunaina Sinhurt, Global Head of Private Capital Advisory at Raymond James. Sunaina, I just wanted to get your quick take on Will Dawson, Makango and Hypermag that we were hearing about just before the news there as well, this sort of race for at least an element of supply chain control, even if it's not, as Will was saying, going to fill the whole scale. I think it's absolutely key to how geopolitical uncertainty and strategy are playing out.

32:15We are seeing really high stakes government intervention into rare earths and we're seeing geopolitics being shaped by the aim to acquire more of it to continue to fuel the growth in these industrialized economies. And we've seen the UK come up with its 2035 strategy that it wants to meet 10 percent of annual demand through domestic production and then hopefully 20 percent by 2035. That's a drop in the bucket compared to the 100 percent that is required. Hence, we've seen all the noise around Greenland and all the other flashpoints that you've mentioned earlier. but it's going to become more and more important for many countries as they think about where are these elements to some of the things we take for granted coming from.

33:06Yeah, and if you can't mine it yourself, having to be clever about how you do that. Indeed, and how you do that cheaply and quickly. Back to, of course, the Greenland played by the US and alignment with other countries in order to make sure there's abundant supply of it. Thanks for your text as well coming in about what we were chatting about. We were chatting with Metas. Financial results coming out. this week about whether you would perhaps wear the equivalent of sort of an Apple Watch, a smart watch on your face in the form of a pair of glasses. Alex has been in touch to say, I use an AI band on my wrist, which gives me information about meetings, action points, and enables me to use the AI assistant on there.

33:43Tamara, you got anything like that? You're one of these people who loves all the tech for sort of sorting your meetings and things out? I'd like to say yes, that I was way ahead on that. But no, I'm not. But it is something that I've been I've tinkered with on the outside. So I'm aware of some of the applications that are around. So but I haven't used them in earnest as yet. I'm a full on Luddite when it comes to that. I still have a handwritten diary for all my stuff. I can't feel like I can't remember the things unless I write them down properly. Well, if you want to join the conversation over the next 20 minutes or so, well, we're going to talk pubs and we're going to talk the film industry as well.