Picking a new Apple

27:48Unfortunately, it is just form-filling, so we don't actually speak to anybody. but for us it's just you know it's it's the the only option we've got really is to go down that route first and foremost and just hope that the that the person is you know has maybe forgotten on this occasion um but yeah it's for us it is it's either do that or hit the hit a massive loss so we try and go down that route first what are the consequences of those losses you know that you see potentially building up right now? Basically, it's going to eventually, if people continue to do it, it will affect the forecourts as in the price of fuel because obviously as a forecourt, you try and sell your fuel price fairly.

28:35But obviously, if you're getting these massive hits for drive-offs, you've got no option but to keep your prices a little bit higher to cushion the losses. There's no other way around it really. When you say, obviously, forecourts are trying to price this stuff fairly, that's been a topic of conversation in recent weeks, hasn't it? Yes, it has. What do you make about where that conversation has gone? It's an interesting conversation and everybody has a different idea or different concept on what they think is a true and fair price. but unfortunately I don't think necessarily that everybody realises that person on the petrol station forecourt, the owner they may not be a big branded site they may be an independent and only have one or two everybody's mindset is they can afford the hit, that's not the case when you're a small independent you still have those big outgoing costs which have to be paid and unfortunately at the end of the day you're on a forecourt to try and make a living have you noticed any change in in in tone approach behavior of customers with the government's comments in the last month or two about potential profiteering price gouging and and the need for investigations to take place you you do get a few people that will sort of raise that with with you but we've always been quite fair with our pricing uh we're a small pet obviously group of petrol stations in Gloucestershire.

30:09And we've always tried to be fair with our pricing and do it as best as we can. Obviously, not everybody will feel that you're doing that, but we've always done our best. And I feel that what the government is saying is a little bit unjust when you look at the extra money they're making from the VAT at the moment on fuel stations with the price of fuel that's risen so much. Rachel, we're going to leave it there for this morning, Rachel. Okay. Thank you so much for the update and the insight as well. Always learning new things about how all of this works. And Rachel King there, who's the forecourt manager for three petrol stations in Gloucestershire, laying out some of the stuff behind that.

30:52The government saying that fuel theft undermines business and their workers. Thieves must face the full force of the law. We urge anyone who's witnessed criminal activity to swiftly report it to the police.

31:04Roll the window down. Do you hear that? It's the sound of spring. So bring on the spring at the Honda Spring Event. Honda's family of hybrids and EVs are ready for wherever spring takes you. Check out the all-electric Honda Prologue, CR-V Hybrid, Accord Hybrid, and Civic Hybrid. All from the 2025 Kelley Blue Book Best Value brand. For great deals, visit your local Chicagoland and Northwest Indiana Honda dealer today. Based on 2025 Consumer Choice Awards from Kelley Blue Book, visit kbb.com for more information. Spring showers bring epic off-road adventures. So bring on the mud and bring on the spring at the Honda Spring Event.

31:43Honda vehicles are built for exploring. With the rugged Honda Pilot, Ridgeline, CR-V, and Passport, the road might stop, but you're not done. All from the 2025 Kelley Blue Book Best Value brand. For great deals, visit your local Chicagoland and North West Indiana Honda dealer today. Based on 2025 Consumer Choice Awards from Kelley Blue Book, visit kbb.com for more information. Wake Up To Money with Sean Farrington. Good morning, it is Wake Up To Money. It's Tuesday morning, 21st of April. Fast forward a few weeks, we'll be at Thursday the 7th of May, where millions of voters will head to the polls.

32:20The biggest set of elections since the 2024 general election. Voters in Scotland and Wales will elect representatives to their national parliaments. In England, voters will be electing local councillors and mayors. The last decade been dominated, heard it on Wake Up To Money, by economic uncertainty, unprecedented crises, concerns about the cost of living across all communities. Something brought into sharp focus again in recent weeks with the ongoing war in Iran. So here on Wake Up To Money, of course, we're interested to hear what the major political parties will be telling voters in the coming weeks about their plans for the UK's businesses, for households, for the economy, for trade.

32:56This morning, for the next 10 minutes, we're joined by Robert Jenrick, MP, Economic Spokesperson for the Reform Party. Mr Jenrick has previously held senior roles in government with his former party, the Conservatives, including serving as Housing Secretary in the Johnson government. Mr Jenrick, good morning. Good morning, Sean. Plenty of policies for us to try and get into in the next 10 minutes. One that you've spoken about a little more recently has been the triple lock, one we often have talked about in recent years on this programme, that reform says now it's sticking by, keeping this triple lock on pensions, increasing the state pension by either inflation or wages or two and a half percent, whichever is highest.

33:35Why would you do that when finances seem to be tight? Yeah, it wasn't an easy decision. And it's one, as is well documented, that we thought hard about because the public finances are exactly, as you say, in a mess, frankly, at the moment. But we chose to retain it because we think that pensioners, having paid in their whole lives, worked hard, should be protected and given a degree of security and comfort in the last decades of their lives. And we do believe it's affordable in the next parliament if you can find savings. That's a big if, but we've set out the areas where we would do that. Firstly, in welfare reform, where we set out very significant savings to get people who are currently on benefit back into the workplace with face-to-face appointments for PIP, for example, not providing benefits to people who have very mild conditions like mild anxiety, who could be in the workforce, not giving benefits to people who are not British citizens.

34:45In other areas, not giving foreign aid to rich countries elsewhere in the world, clamping down on illegal migration that is currently costing us billions of pounds, and not paying billions of pounds in net zero subsidies, for example, for things like electric vehicles or heat pumps. By doing some of these tough choices, we find the savings which enable us to provide this extra security for pensioners. So when you talk about extra security for pensioners, they have seen, with the state pension, some increases that many younger workers, for example, will have felt they haven't seen that kind of consistent support in recent years.

35:25But you're making a choice here that that pensioners and including those that have built up other pensions and have other incomes as well. You're talking about security, but this isn't just about people who are only getting the state pension. This is pensioners right across the income spectrum. There's some people here who might not need these increases and you're saying they can still have it. Yeah, no, I appreciate there's a range of incomes in older age and there's a longstanding argument as to whether or not you means test the state pension or make some other intervention. Would that be something you'd look at maybe?

36:05No, we've chosen not to do that because I think it's right to have a universal state pension as a matter of fairness and simplicity. we don't also see this as pitting young against old as some commentators have done you can provide fairness and decency for people in old age at the same time as recognizing that in many respects the social contract has been shredded in recent decades and we're not doing enough to help young people and we do that particularly by building more homes and reform wants to be the party for house building so that we can help young people onto the housing ladder and also bring down rents because it's actually rents which is the biggest issue at the moment for young people because they're spending 40 or 50 percent in some cases of their incomes on their rent and that's got to change but we've already set out some of the plans how we would do that zoning some of our big cities for example like inner east london to build tens of thousands of more homes by radical reform like that of the planning system, we can build the homes and provide the basic opportunity, really, that young people deserve.

37:18And it used to be considered something that all of us could have almost as a right, but which is now a luxury for far too many young people. Planning with house building is actually something we've, in the last couple of years with this government, we've talked about a lot. We've had many, many house builders on this programme, like the idea of what many of the proposals have been. So what is the thing that you would do that would actually make that happen? Because we know there are so many barriers to building homes that have built up over many, many decades at the moment. What's your big change?

37:51Yeah, I don't pretend it's simple. In fact, I think there's some things that the current government have done which should be applauded. And it was very disappointing to me personally when I was housing secretary that the last conservative government under Boris Johnson in particular rode back on planning reform. The things that we would set out to do are firstly to get rid of some of the unnecessary planning restrictions that currently exist. For example, what's called nutrient neutrality, a rule that predates the present government that goes back to our time in the EU, which is currently blocking around 100 ,000 homes from being built.

38:33We'd get rid of things like that, helping builders to get on and build. And secondly, we are willing to do radical planning in the big cities. And that, as I said earlier, means zoning, making it much more simple for builders to build in places like inner London, where there is brownfield land, there is opportunity but currently builders are simply not building you see that with the appallingly low levels of house builders are currently happening in london can i ask you about workers to a lesser extent to some of our other big cities one another something else we've heard much from reform is about having a you've hinted at it already a more restrictive immigration system than we do now would you be restricting the construction industry from recruiting as many foreign workers as it does at the moment?

39:22Yes, we would. That is a massive barrier, isn't it? On the one hand, you're saying we want to build more homes. And then on the next, you're saying to one of the key things for that industry, we're going to restrict some of your recruitment. Yeah, but we've got, Sean, a million, more than a million now, young people who are neat, not in education, employment or training. We've got near record levels of youth unemployment and rising. We've got to help those British young people into the workplace. 85 % of construction workers are already British nationals. The industry itself says, you know, we're not one to be looking at.

40:04If we need workers from abroad, it's because we need to get, that's what we need to get this stuff built. We already have a good set up for recruiting British nationals. I just don't buy that. You don't think that 85 % figure's right? Well, I think the 85 % figure may well be right, but I do believe that the construction industry can attract and train more British young people. You can't just allow a million young people in this country to be out of work or in education and not act. And actually, these skilled jobs in the building trade, for example, are exactly the kind of jobs which should have a good future in the decades to come, despite AI massively disrupting the labour market.

40:46It sounds like you've got a percentage figure in your mind then. Sorry to talk over you, but if it's not 85%, then what percentage figure do you have in your mind? Because that does feel like a large proportion, like an industry that is engaging with the British workforce. Yeah, I think the industry, which I know quite well... What's the percentage? Well, as near to 100 % as possible. I don't think you can justify bringing in almost any skilled worker, frankly, there will be exceptions, but almost any skilled worker from overseas when we've got such high levels of unemployment in our own country, particularly of youth unemployment.

41:23What the government needs to do is to work with the industry to create more construction skills colleges. There's actually one, a small one, in my constituency, which is very popular with young people, particularly young boys. And the demand is there from people. And you can build more of those colleges, train more people domestically, get them into the workplace. That has to be the answer. Because for decades now, we've been talking about this. And we've had shortage occupation lists, which have included professions from within the construction industry. and the problem never really gets resolved.

42:01So what we at Reform want to do is a massive push on apprenticeships, including for the trades, and use that to help young people to get back into the workplace. And Mr. Jemmick, just on the cost of borrowing for the country, and we've talked a lot in recent years, from around the time in government as well, about big increases in borrowing costs for a government because the bond markets, those investors that lend to the UK, not convinced by certain spending approaches and so ends up with things like mortgages going up. Would you expect with all of your policies you're laying out that we might have to brace ourselves if you had the chance to carry them out for higher interest rates?

42:40No. No, it's been very important to me to be clear that we've got to live within our means as a country. We can't go down the route that we have in recent times where the government is borrowing so much and we're borrowing at such an expensive rate, the so-called idiot premium that has now been attached to the borrowing costs of the government, going right back to Liz Truss's mini budget and borrowing costs. Have you spoken to investors about this? Yes, I have. I have, and I've begun to do, I've been in this role now for three months, and I've begun to do discussions in the city with market participants, banks and investors, and I think they are reassured by the message that I've delivered, that reform is going to be a party of sound money.

43:27We're going to be very careful with people's money, whether that's people in the real economy, you know, your pensions, your savings, your small businesses, or the bond markets. We will take that seriously. We will keep the architecture, if you like, of the financial system, like the OBR and the independence of the Bank of England. We don't mind people marking our homework because we're going to be careful with people's money. Mr. Robert Jemmerick, MP. Economic spokesperson for the Reform Party, thank you for your time this morning. You can see a full list of candidates in your area, as well as what each of the parties are telling voters ahead of the 7th of May.

44:04Just head to the election pages on the BBC News website. Good morning to you. Wake up to money on BBC Five Live. Got Jane Foley with me, head of FX Strategy at Rabobank. Jane waking up to headlines some of the papers this morning, the Times. Manic M &A Monday for UK firms. And I think the Financial Times, unsurprisingly, sort of reflects this somewhere as well. What was so manic about Monday this week? Well, you know, we're talking about M &A mergers and acquisitions. I mean, if we look at the markets over the last couple of months, there's been a lot of manicness. But, of course, a lot of that has been related to oil prices.

44:43What's been quite interesting over the last couple of weeks is that the market is, I mean, many people would use the word complacent. Some asset classes, particularly US stock markets, are almost priced as if the war has ended when we know that there's a physical shortage of oil. So what we've seen is oil prices come down, still elevated from the start of the war, but certainly off the highs. Stock markets, US stock markets particularly last week, making fresh all-time highs, for instance. And some of those interest rate expectations that we had surging last month coming back down. And that has created more stability for a lot of businesses.

45:22And perhaps that is what is encouraging some more M &A activity this week. Right, so that's what those headlines are about this morning. Let's get back into these major changes that could well be on the way for the energy system in the UK and how all of it gets priced. If you've heard that the bills in the UK and costs for businesses for energy are higher than many other comparable countries, it's often down to the link that we have and the reliance we have on the gas and the gas price here in the UK. And the Energy Secretary, Ed Miliband, is later on going to announce a raft of new measures. The government will say to boost clean energy in the UK, intended to protect Britain from energy shocks like the one we're experiencing at the moment.

46:07So we understand that a hike in a windfall tax, effectively, on legacy electricity generators will be part of that. Consultation as well on de-linking these gas and electricity prices could well be announced. As things stand, the price of the most expensive component of our energy mix, So that's often gas sets the wholesale price of energy across the UK. So as gas spikes during the recent conflict in Iran, for example, energy costs shot up at the same time. That's despite the UK grid only using gas for between a third and two fifths. So, you know, 30, 40 percent of its energy is still a big chunk.

46:45Dara Vyas is the chief executive of Energy UK, the trade association that represents many across the UK energy industry. Morning. Good morning, Sean. What do you make of these latest changes? So I think, you know, we are expecting a couple of announcements today. And what we know about what the Secretary of State is going to say is broadly actually really welcome. I think today's announcement provides, you could argue, a bit of a step change when it comes to the UK's approach to electrification and the plans to fulfil what I would kind of describe as the promise of warm homes and cheaper bills.

47:21and that's been talked about by successive governments over the years. I think this government's made quite a lot of progress when it comes to accelerating the rollout of clean power and we're often talking about that. And it's right to recognise the importance of investing in clean power and that's an investment in our security and resilience but there's a lot today that will also be about people, homes and businesses. What's the change in that when you say that today could be quite a key change? I feel like we talk about something to do with the energy sector every week. So what changes today, do you think?

47:54You're right. It does feel like we're talking about something every week. And so I think there's two big parts to what the Secretary of State is going to say today. So on the electrification side, which is making it easier for homes, businesses and people to use energy more and to use electricity more, it's about the opportunity of being flexible, using energy when it's cheapest, most plentiful on the grid and getting off gas. And on the other point, your point about how you de-link gas and electricity, you did a really great job of describing marginal pricing, which is essentially the way that the cheapest generation capacity gets used first, which is often renewables.

48:30And then gas comes in last, sets the price because it's typically the most flexible generation. It's not a policy choice that's been imposed on markets. It's more like a description of how a lot of competitive markets work and naturally function. So pretty much all commodity markets. And it's used across also ECD countries, and the UK is more dependent on gas. So today's proposal is about making changes to the renewable obligation, which is a legacy scheme that was put in place, I think, back in 2002 to try and incentivise low-carbon generation. And the scheme currently works by providing those generators with a subsidy, which is a renewable obligation, in addition to that wholesale value of the electricity they produce, which is expensive.

49:16Back in 2022, we were actually calling for government to consider how voluntary CFDs might help to bring down prices and to kind of decouple gas from electricity prices. So I think there's a lot of potential. As you say, there's also an announcement about tax, which we don't know as much about because obviously it's market sensitive and that will be coming in a couple of hours. So I think together it would be interesting to see what that package together looks like. I think my main concern really, if I'm honest with you, is how some of this has been announced because it really spooked the markets on Friday when it comes to the energy sector.

49:52And right now, more than anything, we need to remain a top investment for global investors. We need to remain an investment destination. We saw some share price falls and we started getting an inkling of some of this. I wouldn't often want to do this, but I want to particularly give a shout out. As you said, the great explanation of the link between electricity and gas. That is Team Wake Up To Money. I know we've spent a lot of time just thinking, how can we succinctly summarise this stuff? This is why. Get subscribed to Wake Up To Money and listen to us. Because it is complicated, Dara. It is complicated, yeah.

50:27People might wonder, you know, why has it taken so long? because there have been some of the energy companies, some of whom will be your members, that will have seen excess profits because the electricity they're producing, which doesn't rely on any gas at all, is linked to these gas prices. And when it spikes up, they've made a large amount of profit from this area. I think you're making a really fair point. But don't forget this Wimple tax, this electricity generator levy, was introduced back in the end of 2022 or the start of 2023. and so there has been this tax on excess profits for the last four years and it is in place right now so as I said I can't comment on what's coming today because I don't know the detail of that tax point of view but there has been a tax on excess profits in this space and actually it doesn't exactly mirror the tax on oil and gas and for a while we were arguing and I think I'd still say that it's important that the, let's call it a windfall tax, it's important that the tax on renewables at least matches the oil and gas windfall tax when it comes to the investment allowances, because we should be trying to invest more in clean power.

51:43It's the best way to ensure our energy security and our resilience. Sharon Lane's with us this morning, Managing Director of Tease Components, a manufacturing firm in Cleveland, works in the energy, defence, marine sectors. Sharon, as you sort of hear a little bit more about what this is all about, is this going to change things for you? Yeah, well, hopefully it will. I mean, I do think obviously there's detail to come out, but I think in principle it sounds great because I think there's been so much frustration about this for years that we've seen all this investment in renewable energy in the UK, um wind turbines solar and everything else and and it just never seems to make any difference to what we're actually paying what we're actually paying just goes up all the time so i think the whole public perception towards renewable energy and just that well what's the what's the point you know and so we've invested on our site we generate about 15 of our energy that we use now through um through solar on our site and so that helps us locally um but you know this has got this has got to be a good thing this idea of um coupling constantly to the highest price it is it's not it's not sustainable for people who are high energy users like us dara has that been a problem the you know the reputation of of the push for renewables that many households and businesses will still after all of these decades of talking about it be wondering what is the point yeah look i think there's there's quite a lot in there to unpack and i think it's it's really important to recognise that if we hadn't been investing in renewables, we would have had to invest in something.

53:18You know, you can't keep your infrastructure static. You have to keep upgrading and investing. And it would have been more expensive to invest in gas and nuclear over the years. That doesn't mean we don't need gas and nuclear. What we really need is a sustainable energy mix to make sure we are secure and that we are resilient. And that's what we're moving towards. We have to take advantage of this country's natural resources, as we have in the past with oil and gas. We have shallow waters, we have windy seas, and offshore wind has the potential to be the backbone of our new energy system. But the transition is difficult.

53:53Does this feel to you, Dara, like a change in approach from this government? I think that this government is being very bold. And if you look at the kind of what we know that will be in the Secretary of State's speech, there's a real breadth to it. There's a real focus on doubling down on clean energy. And there's a real kind of clarity that clean energy is the route to financial security, to energy security, to national security. And I think that is really, really important. It's important to give the market clear signals. And it's important to be clear that the UK is here and competing on the world stage when it comes to the transition to clean power.

54:33Dara, thank you for your time this morning. Dara Vyas there, Chief Executive of Energy UK that represents many across the energy sector. Sharon, great to talk to you this morning. Sharon Lane, Managing Director of Tease Components, been with us, and Jane Foley. Thanks, Jane, Head of FX Strategy at Rabobank. Thank you for all of your messages as well. I've had quite a few coming about fuel drives off as well. David in Maidstone saying this could be stopped completely if you only allow drivers to use card-enabled pay-at-pump dispensers or use an app to pay at the pump as well. I've been using an app since COVID.

55:03Plenty more discussion on that and lots else coming up this morning. But that is it from Wake Up To Money. Wake Up To Money from BBC Five Live. That's it from Wake Up To Money. You can download the podcast every Monday to Friday. So please make sure you subscribe. We'd also love it if you left us a review when you do. Get in touch. Keep the conversation going any time as well on social media. Use the hashtag Wake Up To Money.

55:54Five Live Sports.

56:05At the BBC, we go further so you see clearer. With a subscription to bbc.com and the BBC app, you get unlimited articles and videos, ad-free podcasts, the BBC News Channel streaming live 24-7, plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries. From less than a dollar a week for your first year, read, watch and listen to trusted, independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to bbc.com and a BBC app. Find out more at bbc.com slash unlimited.