Something to declare?

13:36Beyond Retro Supplier:What this would do, it would add both a degree of confidence to the insurance market and I think it would also reduce the price of the war risk premiums that will be going through the market.

13:48Felicity Hannah:Now, of course, what most listeners might be wondering about is what is this going to mean for me? And there is this concern, isn't there, that we're going to see higher energy bills as a result. Jonathan Brearley, who's chief executive at Ofgem, told MPs this week it's still too early to tell how much energy prices could rise as a result of the conflict.

14:09Beyond Retro Supplier:Although we remain at the early stages of this conflict, if the Strait of Hormuz remains closed for a prolonged period of time, it is likely that this will create significant upward pressure on prices that customers will pay for their gas and electricity. For example, in electricity, gas still sets the price for the majority of the time.

14:27Felicity Hannah:In fact, we're already seeing changes. The comparison website YouSwitch has said that energy suppliers in the UK are pulling a raft of fixed price tariffs from the market following that spike. The number of fixed deals available has more than halved since the weekend. And the remaining ones have jumped in price. So they're obviously looking ahead as well. Let's hear what Keir Starmer had to say about the potential impact on the country.

14:53Beyond Retro Supplier:Iran is targeting oil and gas facilities in the Gulf and tankers in the Straits of Hormuz, trying to inflict economic pain around the world. So we will continue to work with the industries affected and our allies to respond to any impact.

15:13Felicity Hannah:Steve, it's really tricky, isn't it? You know, on the one hand, we're talking about a conflict in which people are in danger, people have died, people are being injured. But also, this is a really seismic international economic event.

15:28Beyond Retro Supplier:Yeah, absolutely.

15:33Beyond Retro Supplier:And just going back to that kind of uncertainty word again, it's like you've kind of outlined some of the potential outcomes, but we're not entirely sure what it's going to be. Obviously, our kind of most recent reference point is 2022, the invasion of Ukraine and the concerns there. But there's just the real unclarity of how long this is going to last from both sides of the conflict, if you can even just say both sides. You know, there's such a lack of clarity from the US about their aims to a certain extent. What is the off-ramp on this, which is going to lead in even further to kind of worries about how this kind of crisis ends?

16:20Felicity Hannah:So I'll ask you about the markets more in a moment. But Harriet, as a jeweller, what does this mean for you? I mean, I suppose there's two factors here. There's how confident your customers are feeling and there's the potential rise in the price of gold.

16:35Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:Yeah, that's right. I mean, as we all know, the Middle East situation can move markets, you know, really quickly. But the gold prices obviously often go up because investors see it as a safe haven. So we're dealing with gold prices that have really been moving again this week upwards yet again. And also the other thing that affects jewellers is the US dollar rate, because if the US dollar strengthens at the same time, then diamond prices can go up because they're priced and traded in dollars. So actually, jewellery businesses end up watching those two markets very closely, the gold and the dollar exchange rate.

17:14Felicity Hannah:Presumably you get into an industry like jewellery because you love the beauty and you're artistic and you have a sort of passion for this sector. And then suddenly you have to think about things like the dollar and energy prices and international impacts on people's confidence to make big investments.

17:36Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:Yeah, exactly that. It's such a shock when you're a creative person that starts a business. And, you know, first of all, you're having to deal with all kinds of employment laws and things that you never really thought about. And then you're having to look very globally at these kind of big issues. And, yeah, it's very different from the creative things that we all join the industry to enjoy. Yeah, it's you sort of get used to it. I think I think over the last few years, there's been so much going on, you know, with with everything from Brexit, COVID, inflation shocks. You know, I suppose like most companies, we get used to operating in quite a volatile environment and our customers are sort of getting used to it as well.

18:14Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:But luckily, I think people are still enjoying the things that jewellery can represent to them. Those things that they're marking, engagements and weddings and, you know, special anniversaries are still, you know, just as important to mark. and also we're noticing because of the gold prices, people are coming in with lots of their own gold to melt down and make into other things. So, you know, people tend to find another way to go ahead with those kind of symbols. So we then have to be even more creative and use things in a different way, in a careful way so that they can afford what they want.

18:49Felicity Hannah:Zoe, what do the markets want? What are we seeing? What's the main kind of sense that you're getting? I think markets want certainty.

18:58Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:I think we know that. We know that. We do that. That's the thing. But I think from a broader perspective, I think it's looking a bit out from here and how the markets are going to potentially be impacted. And I think this year, we thought we were going to see interest rates started to come back down, which would have been supportive for the economy. I think that could be in question if we start seeing inflation creeping in. We've started to see US-UK bond yields go up a bit. That's the cost of government borrowing. Yeah. It's the cost of grand borrowing. So I think that maybe shows that the interest rate cuts that could have been priced in are now uncertain to whether that's going to go ahead or we're going to have to wait and see.

19:38Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:So I think there's a lot of takeaways. We've seen economic growth in the UK, certainly not been, the predictions have been lowered. Again, that may have an impact. So I think looking out short term, we've seen some movements, but I think it's how the longer term picture plays out and whether, like we say, we're going to see something similar to what we saw around the time of the Ukraine war, when we did see interest rates being impacted, which had an effect on markets. So there's a lot, I think, to take away.

20:05Felicity Hannah:And I think it's just going to have to see how this plays out in the coming weeks and months. David from Belfast has been in touch to say, you want to talk about oil? Northern Ireland, our home heating is 80 % oil. So our prices have gone up crazy and we have no strategic oil backup, unlike the EU who have to hold 90 days emergency supplies. Steve, this is part of the issue, isn't it? that potentially this is going to push up prices for people. That might then push up inflation. In fact, let's just hear a quick clip actually about how the war might affect the Bank of England's rates decision on the 19th of March.

20:39Felicity Hannah:Because Jonathan Haskell is a professor of economics at Imperial College Business School and he was one of the Bank of England's rate setters until 2024.

20:47Beyond Retro Supplier:I think the important thing is that in positions of uncertainty like this, The value of waiting becomes very large to see what will actually turn out and whether this oil price increase will be sustained. So my view is the committee will be cautious and they might well hold off on having a cut at the next meeting, which is in two weeks. Contrary to what people expected before all this happened, when people thought that there would be a cut.

21:16Felicity Hannah:Steve, explain what the central bank in the UK and maybe across the world might be thinking.

21:24Beyond Retro Supplier:Well, I basically kind of agree with Jonathan Haskell. There's the kind of question of whether they want to think, is this just going to be a short term shock? And if they hold when they were previously going to cut, there's an argument of kind of causing some economic harm that doesn't need to be done. but there is as we've already kind of talked about that short-term question is really unclear and so they don't want to get to the point where prices are almost getting embedded people expect price rises and then we get into the kind of doom loop close to what where we saw around about 2022 2021 where people expect higher inflation and therefore inflation is higher and then the bank has to start raising interest rates again.

22:15Beyond Retro Supplier:So it's an invidious position for them to be in. So I would expect that they'll probably hold at the next meeting.

22:22Felicity Hannah:A doom loop, of course, is the worst kind of loop for the economy. But I suppose a lot of people, Steve, will be listening and thinking, well, hang on, if my costs go up because of rising the potential for energy costs, fuel costs to go up, that doesn't mean that I'm suddenly spending with wild abandon and pushing up inflation elsewhere, that actually means I've got less money to spend. So people might feel like maintaining interest rates to sort of guard against inflation doesn't really make much sense at a time like this.

22:58Beyond Retro Supplier:No, it always feels quite counterintuitive. But to a certain extent, it's a feature rather than the bug of the policy. The idea is to suppress is the wrong word, but kind of calm down the economy. in many ways. But mostly you can think of it in a signaling way. The Bank of England would be maintaining or even in the worst outcome raising interest rates to signal we are taking inflation seriously. And therefore, when it comes to price setting decisions, wage negotiations, people expect that inflation isn't going to get out of hand again. If they don't have that signal from the Bank of England, there's a risk that these expectations get embedded.

23:42Beyond Retro Supplier:So it feels like, yeah, basically the bank is pouring fuel on a kind of unpleasant fire in terms of people's kind of disposable income. But there is a rationale behind it.

23:57Felicity Hannah:Harriet, do you see that rationale or does it feel like the beatings will continue until morale improves?

24:02Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:Gosh, I think, yes, I think it does feel a bit like beatings will continue. with but I think we've all got used to this sort of uncertainty to some degree but yes I do know what you mean.

24:13Felicity Hannah:I might start to get I might get a klaxon and every time we use the word uncertainty I might just kind of like sound it. Okay well let's let's talk about something else that that is definitely going to potentially have an impact on how businesses like yours Harriet are feeling because the Chancellor Rachel Reeves shared an update on her plans for the UK economy this week it was the spring statement, maybe a smaller event than the normal. Hard to know how much that was because of the sort of major news of the conflict in Iran and how much that was that it was simply a bit of a smaller event. Ahead of the statement, we heard from Frances Hack, who's chief economist at Santander, UK, about what the chancellor might have to say.

24:54Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:We obviously will get the OBR report, which, to be honest with you, is what we'll be looking at to understand whether the forecasts have changed. I mean, we are assuming that they'll lower their 2026 growth forecast as they are a bit out of line, both with the Bank of England and consensus views. Although the rest of the growth forecast seems to be reasonably aligned. We're not I mean, whilst they obviously won't opine on headroom or anything like that, we will all be able to work out what the headroom still is. And people, you know, generally speaking, we're expecting the headroom not to have moved that much.

25:28Felicity Hannah:And of course, with the developing news, it was perhaps potentially already a slightly out of date statement by the time the Chancellor was able to give it. But she did give Rachel Reeves a positive outlook on the new forecasts from the Office of Budget Responsibility that were published alongside the statement.

25:44Beyond Retro Supplier:Today, the new forecasts from the Office of Budget Responsibility show that our plan is the right one. Inflation is down. Borrowing is down. Living standards are up and the economy is growing.

26:03Felicity Hannah:Well, the OBR and the Chancellor did acknowledge that the ongoing war could affect some of these. I mean, Steve, we had that quite rosy picture of the UK economy, didn't we? And yet there is this big, looming global event potentially breathing down the Chancellor's neck.

26:23Beyond Retro Supplier:Yeah, I mean, there was definite vibes of the March budget back in 2020 where Richie Sunak stood up and basically was talking about a world that in many senses didn't exist anymore. If you look at the OBR report on Tuesday, which as a fun and crazy guy, that's what I spent my Tuesday night doing.

26:43Felicity Hannah:And that's why we love you here on Wake Up To Money.

26:46Beyond Retro Supplier:Yeah, a lot of the assumptions around kind of gas prices and oil prices that go into that report are considerably lower than they are kind of now. Now, again, we've talked about if this is a short-term effect, maybe that's fine, but it's kind of unlikely. In general, if like kind of going away from that, the main story about the report is kind of not much has changed since the last budget in November, which, you know, given that that's only three or so months, it's not a massive surprise. It was a little bit downward growth that was expected, but the long-run outturn is basically the same. But there's no kind of real fundamental change in the outlook for the economy.

27:32Beyond Retro Supplier:And there's certain things in there that are kind of like at least flashing on the dashboard. I think one of the things is kind of linked to everything we're talking about this way is defense spending. There's a kind of maybe a need for it to be increased by 40 billion by 2035. That's not a real indication of how that's going to get paid for. And there's lots of other things like that. You know, the sense that a lot of the budgeting in the spending envelope is kind of backloaded to the end of the parliament. How realistic is that really? That's before we even get into questions of do we need another energy bailout?

28:14Beyond Retro Supplier:as a you know again going back to 2022 we have the history of the government stepping in but we you know we are in a slightly worse kind of debt position than we are there there's a question of is the kind of government strong enough politically to resist uh demands for that kind of bailout so the uncertain word is going to be used again so you can ring your klaxon but like it hasn't hasn't really, we're no much more clearer, even though we've got kind of updated figures from the OBR.

28:46Felicity Hannah:Zoe, with that potential lack of clarity in this changing world, was there any market reaction?

28:53Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:I think events globally took more of a, I think, a focus for the markets. But I think looking at the bigger picture, I think certainly when you're looking at forecasts, they were already downgraded so this uncertainty going to use the word again um isn't just a uk thing but it's a global thing as well so i think it's difficult to to look at the uk in isolation and i think you have to look at how this is going to impact the world globally and that's going to have more of a factor so a lot of what what reach reviews has done is is out for control too so i think events are if it's shorter term then the plan still may be intact but it feels a bit like um that even a couple of days on or outdated.

29:33Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:So I think market reaction is probably to look more forward to what's

29:36Felicity Hannah:going to happen globally. Harriet, what's your view? Was it turning out to be a relatively uneventful fiscal event, actually the kind of certainty that you need?

29:44Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, growth forecast being downgraded makes all of us cautious about investment, about hiring in business. And actually, I suppose the emphasis on stability was positive because businesses do value stability. But I think most companies like ours were hoping to see more action on, obviously, energy costs, but also employment costs and all of the ongoing issues like the business rates problem. And it was disappointing that it was obviously just thrown to an economic update rather than anything really announcing anything policy changing.

30:17Felicity Hannah:Okay, that is going to have to be the end of, I mean, we could talk for the rest of the program, couldn't we, about all the events that are going on. I think I'm going to finish this section of the show, though, asking you all for another word. I think give me the word for the main thing that you'll be looking out for over the next seven days. Harriet, not to put you on the spot, but let's start with you. Don't say certainty. We can't have uncertainty at work, beginning and certainty at the end.

30:41Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:Oh, my goodness. Well, when it comes to business, I think we're looking at all of our pricing. So it just comes from how we're going to keep keeping things flowing through the pipeline and how we're going to make sure that we use our creativity for customers so yeah pricing which sounds really yeah sounds like what we're going to be looking at for the next week Zoe? It caused certainties off the table I think stability would be would be good I think it's just another word yeah but I think I think from a market's perspective I think just some clarity about what's happening would would give us some calm but at the moment that feels a bit but unlikely.

31:22Felicity Hannah:Pricing, clarity. Steve?

31:25Beyond Retro Supplier:I'm going to make up a word. I'm going to go for grown-upness. You know, a lot of the rhetoric around the conflict, it just feels really dispiriting and it would be nice to have less of that.

31:40Felicity Hannah:Grown-upness. I like it. Right, that's been a fascinating chat. Thank you all so much for it. Harriet, Zoe, stick around. Lots more to talk about. But Steve, this is where we let you crack on with your Friday and going off to be a grown-up. Thank you so much for being with us.

31:53Beyond Retro Supplier:Thanks. See you soon.

31:54Felicity Hannah:See you soon. Steve Nolan there, lecturer in economics at Liverpool John Moores University.

32:01Panel of Experts:We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the dark web.

32:08Beyond Retro Supplier:Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web, US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move in now. Police! From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

32:33Felicity Hannah:Wake Up To Money with Felicity Hanna. Good morning. If you're just joining us on Wake Up To Money, we're having a big old chat about a big old week. But we're also talking about cashless society. It's a debate that just just hots up, doesn't it? How close we are to going cashless. And I want to hear from you this morning. Loads of you already getting in touch. Do you still carry cash? Does using a card or online banking feel different to using cash? In what way? Get in touch. Let me know. Loads of you have already. One person here says cash helps pay tradesmen. No VAT. What else have we got? We've got cash.

33:10Felicity Hannah:Terry says cash should always be an option of purchase wherever possible. I love it when standing at the counter of a shop or eatery next to the smug card-only crowd. When the look of confusion appears on their faces, they comprehend the establishment is cash only. Cash is king, says Terry. Somebody who doesn't give their name says maybe it's a good thing to keep some cash because the war could develop into a cyber war. That's very interesting. Susan says, morning Fliss. Morning, Susan. I still pay the Avon lady with cash. Love that. Keep your thoughts coming this morning. You can text me on 85058.

33:42Felicity Hannah:You can send me a WhatsApp message on 08085 909693. And you can use the hashtag WakeUpToMoney on social media. And I will keep an eye on that. Now, a news story that could have a real impact, but that might have passed you by a little bit so far. The government's consultation on its planned removal of the de minimis exemption closes tonight. Now, this is the rule that means parcels coming into the UK, which are worth less than£135, don't have to pay customs duty. According to the government, the number of so-called low-value imports have tripled in the last three years. Much of it is from Chinese online retail giants like Shein and Timu.

34:23Felicity Hannah:And the government announced last year it was going to remove the exemption by March 2029. And that led some UK retailers to say, look, they're being undercut. It should be scrapped even sooner than that. Let's talk to Steve Bethel, who's founder of Bank & Vogue, which is a worldwide secondhand supplier of clothes, footwear and accessories, and Beyond Retro, which is a vintage clothing store with 15 stores across the UK and Europe. Steve, good morning. Good morning. Good morning. Thanks for having me. Good to have you with us. What's your view then on the de minimis exemption?

34:57Panel of Experts:You know, so for 20 years, we've been proud to be part of the landscape of British fashion. And our push was to have used as part of that landscape of modern fashion. But the disappointing thing about this diminished rule is that there's now over a million and 300 ,000 packages a day going into the UK by, as you said, these low-valued Sheen and Tmue suppliers. And so what that means is that people are buying clothes with, A, they're not paying any VAT, they're not paying any import duties, but also those clothes are not meeting any of the standards that the British government puts out for labour standards or for chemical testing.

35:44Panel of Experts:So it's like, as an example, the Greenpeace did a bunch of chemical tests on the clothes, children's clothes that came from Shein and found that there was formaldehyde on those clothes.

35:55Felicity Hannah:Well, I mean, we don't have Shein to respond to that. But I suppose, I mean, you're making a health and safety case argument. You're making probably an environmental argument as well. But what about in terms of business impact on you? I mean, as a business, as somebody dealing with the actual numbers on your balance sheet, what are you seeing?

36:18Panel of Experts:Yeah, and we've got, obviously being a vintage retailer in the UK, our average price, we're trying to compete against goods that are arriving at£8 an item. And if they're not paying that, if they're not paying rates, if they're not paying import duties, it's just an unfair game. And there's another element that's really important. And it's not just about Beyond Retro's balance sheet, but this product flooding the British landscape is also really devastating the charities across the UK. Every time one of these items ends up in the ecosystem of the British fashion scene, people donate the item to a local charity and like I say, children or Oxfam.

37:04Panel of Experts:And if if they originally bought the item for eight pounds, the charity can't sell it for more than two or three, which means it costs the charity money to handle this product. So it's not just that it's affecting my balance sheet and my ability to compete, but it's also hurting some of the best household names of charities across the UK. And that's a real shame. And the craziness is, look, the Americans dealt with this in three weeks. They said, hey, we're going to change the rule. The Europeans took a view and said, we're going to put in a three-pound duty, three-euro duty, and they did it in three months.

37:41Panel of Experts:The British government is saying we're going to deal with this, but it's going to take us three years.

37:45Felicity Hannah:Well, what the government is saying is that reforms like this have to be consulted on. They have to be implemented in stages so the customs system and businesses can adapt without causing disruption to borders.

37:57Panel of Experts:Yeah, I wonder whether that's, are they saying that to, they're certainly not saying that to us who are paying rates and who are paying duties on the product. I think that this is a play towards the relationship with China, not with really the high street. And look at the high street and the devastation that fast fashion is having on the high street. I think that the urgency of now is, you know, and the Europeans have seen it, and they're putting immediately attacks on the items that are coming in. And it seems like that should be a super easy thing to do is to say, I mean, governments are great at putting on taxes on things.

38:41Panel of Experts:You'd think they would say, hey, why don't we put a three, four pound duty on every parcel that comes in and a conversation. But no, we were going to protract this over a three year period.

38:51Felicity Hannah:Steve Bethel, founder of Bank and Vogue and Beyond Retro. Thank you so much for joining us.

38:56Panel of Experts:Thank you very much.

38:57Felicity Hannah:Thank you. Will in Devon says the amount of rubbish that's coming in is crazy. No standards, more landfill, less employment for UK workers, less revenue for the UK. It's becoming a joke. Let's not get started on workers' rights in those countries. Will, thank you very much for your thoughts on that. Let's very quickly then, if you were listening on Tuesday, you'll have heard a voice note from Jeevan Narwan, who's a producer on Wake Up To Money, and about how Jeevan's plans to travel home from northern India were thrown into chaos by the closure of airspace in the Middle East. We can bring you an update.

39:28Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:I'm finally, finally back home in Manchester. It took me about 32 hours and I covered four different countries in that time. Considering my original flight was 11 hours and direct, it has taken significantly longer. We went from Northern India down to South India, then flew over to Addis Ababa in Ethiopia, which was a really cool airport, but incredibly hectic. There were so many queues and disruptions and cancellations. We then flew to Marseille in France and then back home to Manchester. The real miracle is that all of our bags made it as well, which I was quite worried about, but very happy to be home and looking forward to getting back to work tomorrow.

40:06Felicity Hannah:No rest for Jeevan. Straight back to work. Thank you very much indeed for that. Let us know if you're stuck in the Middle East. Maybe if you've got friends or family or business connections who are struggling to get out, you can text 85058. You can send a WhatsApp message on 08085 909693. Lots of you getting in touch on this question of cashless, your views on that. Joe says, just rising for my Friday early visit to the local cash machine. Best feeling ever is the touching of them, their notes. Peter in Canterbury's the other end, though. He says, rarely carry cash or card with me. Just rely on my phone.

40:43Felicity Hannah:New research suggests high street shops are increasingly accepting only card or phone payments. One in seven have turned cashless over the last year. That's according to a survey of small businesses by Lynx Independent Consumer Council. And our cost of living correspondent, Kevin Peachy, has been to Hastings on the southern English coast to see what people there think. When you are on benefits, you have to budget.

41:07Panel of Experts:So you need cash. Do not get rid of cash.

41:10Felicity Hannah:When you're in the rush in the shop, it's like just taking your phone out and then using it. It's so much easier than having to carry the cash and then carrying it all out and everything. I prefer cash, you know, into the till, bang, that's it, it's done, isn't it?

41:24Beyond Retro Supplier:But even the shopkeepers who are most enthusiastic about notes and coins have needed to adapt. When I started, I wanted it just to be a cash store, because that's why I've been brought up. I didn't really want to go into using credit card machines and extra costs, but then over time I realised now a lot of people just use their cars and they just don't use cash. Whether it's selling chips for cash or only taking card for efficiency, traders are having to strike a balance between keeping costs down and keeping their customers happy. Nearly 8 in 10 of the 1100 businesses questioned still accept cash, but the pace of change to digital payments is quickening.

42:06Beyond Retro Supplier:Of those which have turned cash free worries over security were as much of a factor as customer preferences. This latest report said cash deposit and crime strategies for businesses were needed alongside inclusion programs for consumers. There's a big risk that we exclude cash users if we don't get this right. Nick Quinn is from Link, which oversees the UK's ATM network. So we've gone out and spoken to retailers about what's actually going on, and we want to make sure that their voices and cash users' voices are heard as the way we pay for things is changing. $16.50 change. Lovely. OK, thank you very much.

42:46Beyond Retro Supplier:Back on the high street, cash lives on. But shopkeepers, open all hours, are also open to the different ways people pay.

42:54Felicity Hannah:So that was our cost of living correspondent, Kevin Peachy. On that big change, still loads of you getting in touch. It's always a really, people feel really, really strongly about it, don't they? Eddie in Hitchin says going cashless is a rip-off. Banks and finance companies make money out of our money. And somebody who doesn't give their name says going cashless is wrong. It's putting more money into the hands of the banks who are taking a percentage fee and depreciating the value of each transaction to the retailer. There is still time. Get in touch. Share your thoughts. Still with me in the show today is Zoe Gillespie, Investment Manager at RBC Bruin Dolphin and Harriet Kelsall, Founder and Chair of Harriet Kelsall Jewellery.

43:29Felicity Hannah:Harriet, what are you seeing? I suppose people are making quite large purchases when they come into one of your showrooms or your studios. So presumably they're not going to be paying with cash.

43:39Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:Yeah, that's right. Most people, most of our customers pay by card or sometimes by bank transfer now. But we're definitely not cashless. We really like it when people do bring in cash because obviously, as one of the listeners just pointed out, if say somebody buys a£2 ,000 engagement ring from us and the card processing fees alone will be about£40 straight away. Whereas if someone pays in cash, obviously the business receives the full amount. So one of the best things you can do for a small business is pay in cash. And I'm quite fond of coins anyway, because I had the privilege of serving as a juror at the trial of the picks a couple of years ago, which is where you check the Goldsmiths company.

44:24Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:We check the actual coinage and check that it's made of what it's supposed to be. Actually, it's a really creative thing. The coin designs are amazing when you look at them and less people are seeing them these days, I guess, using cards.

44:36Felicity Hannah:It's actually a very good point. One that Peter in Cambridgeshire is making. He says banknotes are fantastically arty, much better than, and these are Peter's words, some gormless image of a fish staring back at you from a bit of charge inducing plastic. Peter, thank you for that. Zoe, I suppose, you know, it does feel though like the writing's on the wall a bit. There is a direction of travel and we are travelling along it.

44:58Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:yeah I think I mean I couldn't tell the last time I had cash in my pocket so I think that maybe says a lot but you're right I think it's it's difficult when you're I mean I had to go to a supermarket and they wanted a pound for a trolley and I didn't have it so I think it's it's how we adapt it but it definitely feels like even I think since the pandemic we're using cash less and less but I still quite like coins and I think you write the notes and there's something historical about it which we're losing but I think it's a convenience thing for people too and it's quite easy just to go tap your phone, tap your card and walk off

45:35Felicity Hannah:and I think in a society we just like things that are simple Well we've had a message from somebody who says cashless has been good for me because I've reduced going to the pub on principle and Luke says a local bakery to me in Torquay has gone cashless due to a robbery still the best bacon cheese bread up the crusty loaf Luke, that is such a wake up to money text. I love it. Thank you very much for your thoughts on that. You can keep them coming. But let me know as well if you are excited about the opening ceremony of the Milano Cortina Winter Paralympics, which of course kick off tonight. Channel 4's coverage of the event is being produced by Whisper, the independent sports production company behind several major UK broadcast contracts.

46:15Felicity Hannah:Whisper will have its work cut out. It'll be delivering more than 60 hours of live output, including expanded accessibility features and a fully disabled presenting team, a presenting team made up of people with disabilities. Let's talk to Sunil Patel, the CEO and co-founder of Whisper, who I'm very pleased to say joins me in the studio. Good morning.

46:33Beyond Retro Supplier:Morning. Thanks for having me.

46:34Felicity Hannah:Thanks very much for coming in. I mean, I'm guessing I'm kind of excited. A lot of our listeners are kind of excited. You must be very excited.

46:41Beyond Retro Supplier:I'm super excited. I'm actually on my way there this evening. The team are already out there. We have a split team of 110 people between Milan, Cortina, 30 in Milan, Cortina, the split venue, and the rest in Cardiff in our remote production facility in Cardiff.

46:59Felicity Hannah:So just a huge, huge event, huge logistics event. What can we expect, first of all? Let's build some of that excitement. What can we expect to see this evening?

47:09Beyond Retro Supplier:I think it's a classic opening ceremony where there's going to be a lot of filling. There's going to be a lot of people walking into the stadium and a lot of anticipation for the actual live sport to kick off. I think opening ceremonies have got a bit of a bad rap. But actually, once the sport gets underway, I think that's kind of where these sorts of things come into their own, really.

47:33Felicity Hannah:And I mean, you've talked about the size of your team, but what are the main challenges of putting on an event, producing the broadcast coverage of something this big?

47:46Beyond Retro Supplier:Well, ultimately for us, it's about telling the stories. Sport takes care of itself and it's about how we make sure the people on screen, so the presenters, the reporters, commentators, etc., are the most representative that we can find. And in this case, when you're putting on the Paralympics, you want people who really understand the sport and the nuances because there's a lot of nuance in Paralympic sport from event to event, race to race. and then it's about kind of the people producing it behind the camera as well. And so, as you said, we've got 100 % of our on-air talent are disabled and then 25 % of our off-screen talent are disabled too.

48:26Beyond Retro Supplier:And that allows us to make sure we've got people who are disabled telling the stories and helping us make sure we understand what's happening.

48:36Felicity Hannah:And that's fantastic. And for an event like this, that's clearly as it should be. Is that something then that gives more opportunity to people in the industry, in broadcast who have disabilities? Does it kind of give them more opportunities beyond just an event like this? Because some people might wonder, is this just a bit of, you know, sort of doing the right thing for an event like this, but then forgetting it once the whole event is over?

49:00Beyond Retro Supplier:Well, I think you're right. It's a good question. This is our fifth Paralympic Games for Channel 4. and we've over this period of time we've managed to bring a lot of people into the industry with disabilities and from lots of different backgrounds that struggle to get into kind of this wonderful industry from low socioeconomic backgrounds and kind of all sorts and what we've initially did was bring people into the team to do this wonderful kind of event and then they'd stay within the business go off and work in different genres whether it be entertainment documentaries e-sport branded content and then over a period of time would would find that they'd get attracted to a new kind of production company outside of whisper and uh at first that was difficult to kind of deal with because you're thinking hang on we've bought this really good talent with development but then i started realizing actually we were having the impact beyond our own company we're having the impact in the industry that we actually wanted and the wider impact so uh i think there's been a legacy created by channel 4 not just on kind of the way they kind of platform and promote the Paralympics and give it real credibility.

50:06Beyond Retro Supplier:But kind of behind the scenes, the opportunities that they've therefore given production companies like us to bring talent in, give them a chance, train them and kind of create lots of careers for young people coming in.

50:20Felicity Hannah:Which is always good news. What's it like working with Channel 4 then? How much autonomy do you have? How much are you saying, right, it should be like this, it should be like that? And how much are they controlling events?

50:32Beyond Retro Supplier:Look, I don't think they control it at all. They're very good as partners. They allow us to kind of tell the stories and they challenge us in the right ways. And I think that's really important. It's really healthy. You want a kind of relationship where you're not just being allowed to get on with it and you have total autonomy. You want to be challenged to kind of make sure you're raising your game every day, every hour, every show.

50:52Felicity Hannah:We'll talk more about the Paralympics in just a moment, but we are a business programme. And I have to ask you, Sony had a stake in Whisper. it's divesting its stake in Whisper full ownership is going back into private hands what can you tell us about that and why that decision has been made

51:09Beyond Retro Supplier:well look it's a fantastic moment for us we're 16 we've been a business that's been going 16 years we were under private ownership then we went into Channel 4's growth fund and then we went into Sony and each time we've had these different periods we've come out of them stronger and for us it was about taking independence again going fully kind of independent and it allowed us actually now to think about right how do we reward and incentivize our staff to take a share in the growth going forward which for me when I set up the business 16 years ago it was always an ambition to create a team that were rewarded in the success and we've taken a lot of kind of inspiration from the likes of John Lewis with their partnership scheme kind of how we bonus people and everyone is rewarded in that success But when it comes to kind of share and equity incentives, that's kind of the next step of what we're doing.

52:02Beyond Retro Supplier:It's also going to allow us to kind of return to being more entrepreneurial, more disruptive and get back to that startup mentality. When you have total kind of when you talk about autonomy earlier, having that total autonomy to really look at opportunities.

52:19Felicity Hannah:What's your outlook? We've been talking a lot about uncertainty, chaos, the difficulties of operating. every kind of business at the moment, from jewelers to others on the show so far this morning. What's your outlook for broadcast in the UK and globally? How are you feeling as a founder?

52:38Beyond Retro Supplier:Well, I was listening to the show on my way in and I heard the jeweler talk about kind of, actually, it's almost like the norm, right? We've worked through so many different kind of difficult periods now. It's just, it's the next thing to expect. And that has an impact on how you operate. but also kind of how you trade. And for us, it's just kind of ensuring that our business is so broad that we can kind of navigate any kind of global situation when it comes around. And look, I think we work in an entertainment sector. We tell stories. And so you've always got to be mindful when you're going to do the Paralympics.

53:18Beyond Retro Supplier:There's some real difficult stuff going on in the Middle East. So it's kind of understanding kind of where you push the entertainment level when you're when you're covering these events. But I think the outlook's great for content making. There's more people making it, so it makes it slightly difficult from a competition perspective. But there's also more platforms and there's more opportunity and we're at the heart of that.

53:40Felicity Hannah:OK, we are almost at the end of Wake Up to Money. But tell me then, let's just build up some of the excitement. What are you most excited about coming up in the Paralympics?

53:48Beyond Retro Supplier:Well, I think if you look back at the Olympics that we just had, that Bebe's covered wonderfully, the curling was something that gripped the nation. And I think we've got that coming up with the wheelchair curling as well. And that's already underway with some of the prelims. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to the wheelchair curling. That's going to be kind of a highlight for me.

54:07Felicity Hannah:There is something about curling, isn't there? Just the whole nation ends up kind of sitting watching. Sunil Patel, CEO and co-founder of Whisper, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you very much. Thank you. Best of luck with it all. Thank you also to Harriet Kelsall, founder and chair of Harriet Kelsall Jewelry. Thank you to Zoe Gillespie, investment manager at RBC Brew in Dolphin. And thank you to you for all your messages and for your company this morning on Wake Up to Money. Let's have one more. Paul says, cashless society. Ever been to a music festival in the middle of nowhere? Not always a signal.

54:34Felicity Hannah:Thank you for that. That's it for Wake Up to Money.

54:37Beyond Retro Supplier:Wake Up to Money from BBC Five Live.

55:15Beyond Retro Supplier:We'll be right back. We daily throughout the tournament with all the best insight and analysis and the biggest names in the game. The Six Nations.

55:23Milano Cortina Winter Paralympic Producer:Listen on BBC Sounds.

55:29Panel of Experts:We focus on the part of the internet that most people don't know about. It's called the dark web.

55:35Beyond Retro Supplier:Undercover in the furthest corners of the dark web, US special agents are on a mission to locate and rescue children from abuse. Move in now. Police! From the BBC World Service, World of Secrets, the darkest web follows their shocking investigations. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your BBC podcasts.